Light-hearted anecdote for a hot day....

Got to the field this morning to find Jak, Charley, Blackberry and Bertie loitering around the water trough. Jak was in process of trying to drink but Blackberry chased him away. When I went closer I realised the trough was nearly empty so I put the end of the hose in it and went to turn tap on (from outside field).

As the water started to come out, Blackberry tried to drink but then reminded himself that actually the gushing water is way too scary and he backed away. Jak tried again - he doesn't mind the gushing water - and was chased away again in a classic example of "dog in the manger".

I then got back to the gate and went into the field. Jak came straight over for a quick scratch and then turned and did a big loop around the other horses to the far side of the trough. Charley came over to see me, leaving a space for Jak at the trough but he was again chased away by Blackberry.

By this point, Jak was looking at me and, trying my hardest not to anthropomorphise, really seemed to be waiting for me to deal with things. I gradually manoeveured myself so that I could distract Blackberry as well as Charley. Jak immediately went to the trough and got his drink.

It just struck me that since this behaviour has not been trained as such (yeah right, no way I could train this if I'd tried!), there must be some pretty advanced concepts taking place in his mind. He seemed to think I know what he's thinking and what the other horses are thinking. He seemed to think that I would be a soft touch and help him, if I could understand what I needed to do. And he knew what I needed to do about it and figured I was able to do it.

Sometimes it crosses my mind that I'm encouraging a helplessness in him because he won't stand up for himself when the others are being gits. But actually I think he's using me as a "tool" to temporarily enable him to "queue-jump" the "pecking order". Which makes me think he's a crafty little bugger who's not remotely helpless, just highly manipulative!

Catherine (desperately in need of some rain to soften the ground for Jak's shoulders, so we can do more riding and less sitting around thinking!)

Or... As you mentioned to me once, perhaps he was thinking "I know I'll get this stupid human to do just I want her to". He seems to have trained you well!.

Making leaps and bounds with Dime he trots over to me now for belly scratches, but still runs a mile if I cough or move quickly. VERY frustrating! Thanks for the really good advice though.

Still waiting to hear back from the UKNHCP.

Nothing in the EBF about this year's synposium, have you heard anything?

Jo

Well I certainly do my best to be the model student! He certainly does try to train his stupid human but in this case it's not just a stimulus-response type situation, lots of different factors. At least, that's how I saw it but could be wrong!

Fab news about Dime - I was thinking about you the other day and wondering how things were going. Don't worry too much about him still running when something unpredictable happens, that's just a step further along the shaping plan. Would you say he's still stretching his comfort zones with what you're doing at the moment or is he comfortable with it? If you feel as though you've reached a temporary plateau then maybe it would be a good time to start introducing something like a really tiny cough or clearing of throat and immediately follow it up with extra-special scratches/treats. On other occasions you could start to move a tiny bit more quickly and then give him a special treat. So that he has to try a little bit harder to get the most valuable rewards. That way you're going for counter-conditioning rather than habituation. If you continue like this, he will gradually learn that, even when humans are unpredicatable, he can still cope and gain value from them.

Catherine

Hi Catherine

Whilst Dime is making progress and trots to me always now, its by no means consistent as to whether or not I can actually touch him at first try that day. The first attempt at my touch is the worst for him and he seems to have to really really try hard & contain himself whilst I do it and then when he realises he's going to get belly and chest scratches he settles (of course until I swop hands too quickly, or sneeze or cough or trip over my feet!).

Incidentially, I have observed that he's not always this "spooky" now with me. When moving fields the other day I take the 2 big horses together first (Dime's other pony friend has gone home now) so then I go back and I take Dime on his own. He stood and waited patiently for me to come back and didn't seem to even have to try hard (like in the past) to let me put his head collar on, he dipped his nose to put it in. He must also see me as some sort of "comfort" as the farmer was making hay in the field next to the lane we walked along and he hid to the other side of me to protect him (am I anthropomosising now?)!

So, this is what I find so frustrating. He's not spooky and just a "normal" pony at the times he chooses but then is the spookiest scardest pony ever at something we do everyday like a rub or scratch. Hmmmm, help with that please!

And, of course, as we've talked about in the past I have no reference points whatsoever as to whether I'm doing it wrong / right / making any progress / training unwantable things in him... using this +R. It would be so much easier to have something to have in my mind to work to. Ho hum!
Sorry to ramble yet again!

Jo

Hmmm, tricky one! So frustrating being at the opposite end of the country!

When you do your scratching, are you absolutely clear with him what your criteria for earning a scratch are? From the way he's spooky sometimes but not others it might be that he doesn't understand what the job in hand actually is. If he really understands what the job is then he's going to be more confident. Being lead in a headcollar is fairly unambiguous. Maybe with the touching it's more about him not knowing when you've started. If you're training "stand still and allow things to happen to you" then it's probably a bit ambiguous.

If it were me I think I'd be using a target that he wouldn't normally get to see and scratch him for touching it. That way, when he sees the target he knows he's going to get a scratch (or treat or whatever). Or is that what you're already doing? Did you persevere with the treats?

Alternatively it could be that you're beginning to fixate on this issue and putting too much pressure on both of you. Then when you just get on with something that needs to be done your focus is elsewhere which is why he could deal with it better. Think about your behaviour rather than his!

Or no doubt a whole host of other possibilities! Don't get frustrated, this is so normal. When you think how he's probably felt like this for years, it could well take you years to reverse the problem. Trust isn't necessarily built quickly, the counter-conditioning process can be so slow even if you're really experienced in using it. Try to see it as something like a damaged tendon - you might have a year of box rest followed by a year of very restricted individual turn-out. Horrible for all concerned but somehow you get through it.

Are you keeping a diary? Might help you assess your progress so that you don't get sucked into feeling despondent.

Couple of suggestions in terms of getting more practical help. You could email Ben (via http://www.hartshorsemanship.com ) as he might well have workshops up your way and could fit you in a home visit. If that's no good (and that really would be what I'd recommend!) how about making me a video of various clips of you working with Dime. Then at least I can see what you're like together and will have at least a bit better idea of what's going on. Email me if you want to go down that route and I'll send you my address.

Catherine

PS Also meant to say, if you haven't done so already, have a look at Ben's e-book on shaping and setting goals. It really builds on what Karen Pryor says about shaping and makes it more relevant in a practical situation.

Brilliant. Thanks again. I've been making things over complicated and as you have rightly assumed, now I look back & assess our work together, putting lots of pressure on us both to achieve something, anything!.

Of course, he's just not understand what on earth we're doing there and why we're doing it. It needs to be a bit like learning your times tables. I'll take a cone into the field with me and use that as one simple reference point, no cone with me in field, nothing required by either of us! That will make it much simpler for us both. I still do have treats although he is still "mouthy" but not aggressively so.

My biggest end goal is just to be able to touch him all over and he be happy and content and settled with it, doesn't sound like much, but its a big ask for him.

I do keep brief notes in my diary of what I've done that day. He's come a long way since he was bought by my friend Sarah, but not much further with me, other than I can actually headcollar him easily, but I think that's more routine. If you change the routine he regresses. He learns something and then the next day its like starting at square one, he's forgotton it all.

Will keep at it, but he is very tricky, but sooooo sweet. If I knew how to do it I'd post a picture of us all, so you could see us!

Thanks once again, and I seem to have high"jaked" (get the pun) your post! Apologies.

Jo

Brilliant. Thanks again. I've been making things over complicated and as you have rightly assumed, now I look back & assess our work together, putting lots of pressure on us both to achieve something, anything!.

Great stuff. But you are achieving things just by being with him and allowing him to succeed

Of course, he's just not understand what on earth we're doing there and why we're doing it. It needs to be a bit like learning your times tables. I'll take a cone into the field with me and use that as one simple reference point, no cone with me in field, nothing required by either of us! That will make it much simpler for us both.

Good plan

I still do have treats although he is still "mouthy" but not aggressively so.

Still worth persevering as it's a good chance for him to learn that you won't hurt him, whatever he does to you. Great that he's lost the aggressiveness, that's a big step in the right direction and shows that he's less fearful of you. (well, obviously I'm guessing a bit!)

My biggest end goal is just to be able to touch him all over and he be happy and content and settled with it, doesn't sound like much, but its a big ask for him.

Thing is, I think this is actually a huge goal/ask. I think you need to break it down into smaller goals. In fact I'm not convinced you want to have it as a goal because I think you're focussing on it too much. Have the necessary bits of it as your true goals (ie dealing with feet, the bits you genuinely need to touch) and allow the rest to just happen as the relationship develops. One day when the time is right, he'll have a horsefly bite in the spot he normally least wants you to touch him and he'll decide he wants you to scratch him right there. Try to wait for him to tell you when the time is right, rather than systematically going for the desensitisation programme. Try to just enjoy each other and allow the rest to come.

He learns something and then the next day its like starting at square one, he's forgotton it all.

Hmmmm, horses have pretty good memories so it sounds more as though he hasn't really learnt it. That's the thing with going to demos - you often come away thinking wow, hasn't the horse achieved a lot because of what the trainer put it through. But you can't help wondering whether the horse has really learnt the new behaviours for the future or whether there was finally the right combination of pressure/fluke/tries/release. I think the cone-touching will help you here, finding out what he's really remembered and what he achieved through some fluke. And don't forget what I said about trying it with one of the other horses first - will help you reduce your mistakes which he will be less able to deal with.

Will keep at it, but he is very tricky, but sooooo sweet. If I knew how to do it I'd post a picture of us all, so you could see us!

Awww, would love to see one. There's a fixed thread at the top of the page which talks about posting photos. And on my browser (Mozilla, Linux platform but should be something similar on other ones) there is a link to "image services" and photo bucket - think that's changed since I wrote the instructions so they might not be quite as valid as they used to be.

Thanks once again, and I seem to have high"jaked" (get the pun) your post! Apologies.

Tee hee, how can I not forgive anyone who manages to get Jak into a pun!

Catherine

Don't worry, Catherine. You're not the only one being used in this fashion. My little B gets chased away by Henry, mostly around food, but sometimes when Henry's in a bad mood (hot weather, flies...). B heads straight for me - it's a little disconcerting sometimes - and puts me in between him and Henry. I've kind of made a rod for my own back, as he soon sussed that I would distract Henry/chase HIM away, when I thought things were a little unfair! Poor little B!

Hi Jo

Whilst reading through your conversation with Catherine (and it was a quick read as I should be doing other things), it popped into my head (and maybe only because I've done it - all I know about you and your horse is what I've just read on this thread) that perhaps you are approaching your horse in a serious, sort of over-focused way - ? Totally understandable as training horses should be taken seriously. But, IF you're approaching him this way, from your horse's point of view your focused intent on him may be a little worrying until he realises you are only going to scratch him and not hurt him.

As I said, just a thought.

Good luck with him.

Jan

Just a very quick update on the suggestions (coz I have high "jaked" this thread enough).

Dime seems much keener now we're using the "target", I actually use a plastic jug as the cone freaked him. Have been clicking and treating him just touching the target whether I'm holding it, or leave it somone near me in the field for him to leave me, touch and come back. Taken about 5 days for him to go and touch the target and then come back. Obviously only just started this now.

What now to get the target incorporated into me touching him? Suggestions greatefully appreciated.

Interestingly, when I check the horses in the mornings & evenings, and if I just happen to be walking past him, he lets me give him a rub without any real worries, has the target work helped with this?, or is it that its just fallen into place for him?.

It seems much more "fun" for him, and he's stopped holding on with his mouth to anything that's dangling from me!!, not quite sure how he's extinguished this behaviour on his own coz I certainly don't think I've done any specific work on it (but could be wrong).

Jan L - You are absolutely right, I was taking a much too serious approach in trying to make him happy with humans, things are much simpler, easier and laid back for us at the moment.

Hi again Jo

At the risk of annoying you by harping on (sorry!), you said:

"Interestingly, when I check the horses in the mornings & evenings, and if I just happen to be walking past him, he lets me give him a rub without any real worries, has the target work helped with this?, or is it that its just fallen into place for him?"

Whilst not discounting that you are developing your relationship with Dime, my feeling is that his being less worried about you touching him at such times is because he's more relaxed around you when you and he are not involved in a training session, even though you aren't as over-focused as you have been. I would imagine that your energy level is higher and your focus more intent when actively training than when mooching around the place in a relatively aimless way. Dime sounds like a very sensitive boy, and perhaps one who has learned to be overly suspicious in order to protect himself, so this lift in energy and focus could still be enough to worry him.

It may be that by stopping the training sessions and continuing the 'aimless' contact with him allows him to become more receptive to you at his pace. Without you having to think about training steps and so also having to ask things of him, you might achieve your goal of touching him all over without even really trying. Perhaps it's Dime's way of telling you that he needs to take things a bit slower - ?

However, I am no expert and don't even know you both, so please don't think I'm suggesting you act on my thoughts, or even take any notice of them at all! If you are in any doubt though, it would be worth getting the opinion of someone very experienced with this approach to working with horses, someone who has also observed you both in the different situations, someone who can visit you and Dime at home.

I hope this all makes sense.

Jan

Hi Jo

Was going to say pretty much what Jan said! (But without all the apologising as I'm much more arrogant than she is - tee hee!)

In fact your post made me chuckle because you were actually answering your own questions. It's great that the CT work is going well and that you're both having an opportunity to enjoy each other. And alongside that, without trying, you can suddenly touch him when you don't make an issue of it. So forget about trying to systematically trying to touch him all over. Carry on playing and having fun and allow things to just carry on slotting into place. Soon you'll look back and wonder what the problem was, without ever having actually consciously dealt with it.

This is about setting up a psychological environment where he can learn to open up and trust you. In order for that to happen, you need to trust him and just allow him to come to you when he's ready.

Well done! Click and treat for you too!

Catherine

She might be arrogant, but she's also succinct!

And, point taken Catherine - no more over-apologising, tis a bit sickly