Dear all,

I'm back after a very, very long absence... and reading voraciously again.

and I have a question...

Banner is a 4 year old warmbloodxNPS pony. I've had her since she was 2, with a small blip when I sold her to a woman who promised her a home for life and called me six months later to say that her daughter had outgrown her and did I want her back? I found later that her daughter found the pony 'boring' which is, I think, kid-speak for the fact that they'd sent her to be backed and brought on by someone who turned her into a solid-wood giraffe.

So now, back with me and clicker-training along Alex Kurland lines because this is why I came back into horses. Also using Mark Russell's 'Lessons in Lightness' as my bible for 'working front to back so I can ride from back to front'

in the process of which... she hates bits. All bits. I've tried Myler, KK, french link, Happy Mouth... she hates them all. And hard to C/R when she spits out everything in her need to get rid of the bit. I could persevere or I could try something else.

I've been reading the Dr Cook's website, looked at Libby's in Devon and read that Kelly starts hers in a Dually.

SO - asking the general combined wisdom of the site what halters/bridles you'd recommend for starting a young horse (from the ground to begin with, moving to saddle only slowly) and why?

thanks all


Manda Scott MA CertVA BVMS MRCVS
Shropshire
UK

http://www.mandascott.co.uk>

Hi Manda,
have just heard from Margrit you are coming on the 25th, will be nice to meet you at last!
Re bits etc. If you are working with the clicker and in a safety conscious way, why don't you just begin with a headcollar? Remember you must put safety first at all times, both for yourself and the horse. Only do this if you feel you are capable and you are sure she is not in physical pain or frightened. Atleast with working with the clicker and using only very minimal gentle negative reinforcement you should be able to do this without stressing her. If you are finding she is becoming upset or you are having to use more pressure then you need to go back a step. Teach her all the directions she needs to learn to yield to, to stand quiet and to be relaxed about moving where you want her. From your wooden giraffe comment I am guessing she found her initial backing experience pretty stressful. Have you looked at backing yet yourself? Again, using the clicker, you should be able to work on the ground to help her understand voice commands, cues that resemble leg aids etc for moving sideways and forwards. Then working on relaxation and calmness while you back her. If you are continually reading her body language and working positively with her you should be able to do all this in a headcollar without problems. I would say then when she has learnt new positive associations with every aspect of being handled and ridden, which could take quite a while, you could then begin to reintroduce the bit. Are her teeth etc ok? I know you are a vet so would imagine you have checked everything physical out, as I am sure you know better than I do their mouths change alot at this age!
How is she about having her mouth handled? Has she been scared by having the bit rattled off her teeth? Does she accept a bit in her mouth at all without any contact on it, is it the presence of the bit that is the problem or the rein contact? All these things should be easily overcome using the clicker and a simple desensitisation/counterconditioning programme. You may have to go right back to mouth handling, accepting things in mouth etc. I hope none of this sounds patronising Manda, I know you are a vet etc and you've spent time with AK, but I'm not sure exactly what your practical experience and behavioural knowledge is! Obviously without seeing you and the mare I can't be any more specific about what you should do. Hope this helps!
Helen

Go for bitless! - at the very least, you will know you're not causing more discomfort than absolutely necessary, and I've seen great results with never-ridden ponies in Dr. Cook's (Nylon, of course!) bridles. I've supplied these for a school with total beginners riding out and they're terrific!
The safety issue - if you can't do it without causing pain - don't do it.

Hi Manda

Welcome back! And sorry to hear about the situation with your pony. Maybe she was trying to tell you something!

I'd agree that you've tried enough bits and now is the time to go down a different route. Maybe once she is riding happily you will be in a better position to try a bit again

I really like my sidepull bridle, which basically works in the way a normal headcollar works. I've never really liked the idea of the Dr Cook / scawbrig / dually because of the squeezing action. And particularly for a young horse who will be learning a set of cues in a headcollar, it seems odd to me to expect it to learn a different set of cues when being ridden.

I bought it from here: http://www.plasequestrian.co.uk/endurance.htm

There's no picture of the sidepull on the site but I'll try to upload one in next post

Catherine

Catherine, I agree re: squeezing action etc. I have used a Dr Cooks and would only use it on a pretty slack/ non existant contact. The only time I ever had to take up a hold on it (long story but involved a bronco impression and needed to get the horse's head up quick before we parted company!) the horse ended up with a cut under her jaw. This was a nylon Dr Cooks. As I have said a million times before, whether bit or bitless, they are only kind if the rider is kind. It is possible to exert every bit as much pain and pressure on a horse using a bitless bridle (or even a headcollar for that matter) as it is with a bit.
I agree if this horse has been traumatised then no need to work with a bit at all which is why I suggested a headcollar instead. And the sidepull looks like a lovely option. But if Manda does wish to introduce a bit for whatever reason then it should be possible to do so if care is taken and enough time spent. My philosophy in all the work I do is to read how the horse is feeling and never push them too far. A good ds/cc programme with small enough steps should be able to reintroduce the bit without any fear, pain or trauma for anyone. It is up to Manda to decide whether this is necessary or whether she would prefer to just stay bitless.
Helen

Hi all,
I'm sure a lot of you will have heard of Alexander Nezvorov but for those of you who haven't, I thought I'd send you his web address. This guy does haute ecole without ever using so much as a halter - not even in training. Not that I'm suggesting we should be trying it just yet - I just find it completely inspirational. It amazes me just what can be achieved just using a rope.
http://www.nevzorov-haute-ecole.com/en/
best wishes,
Cath

Yes, the Nevzorov website is very inspirational - he's an extremely strange character (look him up in Google!) and it's very difficult to know just what he's getting at. On the Italian "Barefooters" Forum (there's an English and Spanish speaking section, too) we have a Dutch member (living in Malaga) who also rides out with completely bridle-less horses - his web site is under "Homo Caballus" if you want to see action pictures. The Forum Owner, Alex Brollo, also has pictures of riding with just a length of hose formed into a loose ring around the base of the horse's neck.
I think it's great that people are really trying for a revolution in tack all round - does anyone else find the whole attitude of the horse changes with nothing in the mouth? - I've been amazed at the change and when you get your eye in, you can hardly bear to see horses with a snaffle or bit!
Of course, I know there are superb riders who can camouflage the difference, and nothing's going to happen overnight but thank goodness people are looking for better ways!I believe there is a Dutch group (and I know there's at least one English one) trying to get the FEI etc to look at allowing bitless horse in "bitted" competitions - anyone got any news of these initiatives?

Thanks all... with luck will be at the conference on the 25th tho' it does rather depend on how the writing is going - I have a deadline of the end of the year and when I can count it in weeks, it all becomes rather scary...

at any rate, thank you all hugely for your input and sanity - in a world where everyone wants results yesterday, it's good to have contact with people who will let positive reinforcement do its work. And, yes, I have checked her teeth and her back and I think her issues are more to do with how she has been worked. Bizarrely, my trainer turned up with a straightforward full cheek snaffle today and persuaded me to try it and she was entirely happy, so perhaps I was being too fast off the mark - we'll see how she goes over the next few days.

and yes, safety... I was working her in hand yesterday when a monstrous bin fell over in a gust of wind and I found the speed she could accelerate to, which was interesting. If I'd been on top, I suspect I'd currently be in a ward having my spinal fractures assessed, which wasn't entirely a cheering thought. My fault for having her on a loose lead rein but we'd been so, so relaxed earlier and working down and low and playing Alex's 'Why would you leave me?' game all of which requires a degree of relaxation. SO back to the drawing board and a lot of deconditioning to bangs and flaps and monster noises. given the speed the cars come down the local lane, I can't see we'll ever get out of the drive alive, but that's so far away it's not worth thinking about now.

sigh

despondent of Shropshire

m

Manda Scott MA CertVA BVMS MRCVS
Shropshire
UK

http://www.mandascott.co.uk

Forget the bit Manda,
sounds like you need to go back to scratch on introducing novel objects and experiences!! Lots of desensitisation and counterconditioning needed there to make any work with this horse potentially safe by the sound of things. It is truly amazing what can be achieved with the clicker in terms of producing a safe confident relaxed horse, I can never say often enough to people how valuable and powerful working with positive reinforcment is. Sounds like this little mare will teach you lots and lots.
Let us know how you get on!
Helen

Indeed. Safety in all things - Alex's first and strongest teaching. I have her check list for riding on my desk... 'Can your horse stand alone by the mounting block, head down for a count of ten? (no) Can she walk, trot, canter in balance in a circle on and off the lunge? (no)' etc. etc...

months of work. Possibly years. Will post progress when there is any. The joy of this is that she's such an amenable mare and has learned so much in the three weeks she's been home.

thanks all

m

Manda Scott MA CertVA BVMS MRCVS
Shropshire
UK

http://www.mandascott.co.uk

Hi Manda

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here but I hate hearing you so despondent so will chance it....

As I'm sure you know, it's very hard to work with positive reinforcement if you are not feeling positive yourself. What chance does your horse have? So pleeeeease try to see this is as a lovely opportunity to bond with your mare and undo the damage that has been caused to her. It's about the journey, try not to focus too hard on the distant goals that seem so unachievable at the moment.

I know that's easier said than done. But to help you along a bit, I wonder a bit about whether you need to set some short-term goals specifically for you and your mare, rather than the safety wish-list that Alex has given you. What do you think your mare will benefit from, in her eyes rather than yours? Don't worry about which lessons you think she needs. This is your opportunity to give her a good time and start creating your new relationship. Everything else will build on that.

Obviously I'm not saying ignore the safety issues, but allow them to just come, rather than focussing on them. My horse certainly couldn't stand alone by the mounting block, head down for a count of ten or walk, trot, canter in balance in a circle on and off the lunge. But that's not because he's unsafe, just that I don't need him to be able to do these things so I haven't bothered to teach him. I do need him to be able to walk calmly alongside a busy A road though and by careful shaping and listening to his behaviour and opinions we can do exactly that, safely. Being able to do head-down by the mounting block is simply a behaviour, not a step to being brave around traffic. I'm sorry to say I just don't see the connection.

To me safety is about shaping and not pushing the horse beyond what he can currently cope with. Through incremental steps you can gradually build up mutual trust. With mutual trust comes safety. If you are expecting too much from your horse in terms of "emotional control" then sooner or later there will be an explosion, apparently from nowhere. If you instead allow the horse an opinion, and listen to it, then you always have access to information and explosions become much more predictable - you learn your horse's cut-offs between "I can deal with that" and "I really can't deal with that".

I suspect Jak would also accelerate rapidly if a monstrous bin fell over in a gust of wind, as would any flight animal who hadn't been conditioned into being a robot. I think we need to be careful not to expect too much of horses. Some of the shaping has got to be training ourselves to deal with scary situations, not expecting the horse to switch off to them. So that either involves improving our riding so we can sit all manner of spins, bucks and accelerations. Or it means guaranteeing an absence of potentially scary situations/objects, at least while in the early stages of the shaping plan. I'm not saying this in the interests of wrapping the horse up in cotton wool, but in the interests of not doing too much too soon and creating a dangerous situation which could have been avoided.

Anyway, I'm sure you get my drift and I'm also sure you know it all. Please enjoy yourself and enjoy your mare - that's what it's all about. And we're always here if you need us.

Catherine

Catherine - thank you....

I was feeling hugely despondent, but mainly it was time to shift my expectations into line with reality, which is always a hard one particularly when the gulf is so huge. I spent the summer moving house, clearing up after the death of a parent, convinced my beloved was being quietly turned into a light, peaceful, fluid pony and find that instead I have a wooden giraffe who's scared of her own shadow.

and was about to give up, not least because everyone but everyone who gives the free opinions (and knows 'Just the horse' to replace her) thinks this is wise and some of them are people I respect highly

but then today we spent a quiet hour or two in the stable simply working on putting the bridle on and off without panic/head-throwing and clunked teeth and then, once it was peacefully on, we worked on very, very slight/light lateral flexions - and got them, which is a miracle given previous responses and life was suddenly so very good - tho' nobody outside of this list or the clicker community is likely to understand how great is the sense of achievement when my bridle-shy pony puts her nose down and opens her mouth for the bit. I may yet go bitless, but she's so much less scared of it than she was - I had no idea how much of her previous responses were a result simply of bad handling.

so - thank you - for reading the situation rightly and for exactly the right kind of reinforcement...

m




Manda Scott MA CertVA BVMS MRCVS
Shropshire
UK

http://www.mandascott.co.uk

Catherine well said, I think you have hit the nail on the head exactly when you warn against the dangers of ticking off the list. I think this is exactly the problem with a great number of 'trainers'- I don't personally wish to teach 'the spence method of horsemanship ' (what a laugh!! ) what I aim to do is give people the skills to understand how training, any training, works, and how to enhance their horse'person'ship in terms of reading and understanding their horses and being better trainers because they understand exactly how and why what they are doing works.
Manda I am glad you are making progress. One day at a time and enjoy the achievement each minute brings!
Helen