I'm emerging out of lurkdom to post this, because I've been thinking about it all week.

Mali and I were hacking out earlier this week on a circular route that we've done many times, about 15 minutes away from home on the roads, then another 15 minutes heading for home down the bridleway (Middlewood Way for those of you that know it). The bridleway used to be a railway line and the part that we were on is effectively in a cutting, with high banks going up on each side. As we were riding along, I could see something in the distance but couldn't decide what it was. When we got closer I saw that the rangers had been cutting down trees and what I'd seen was both the patches of shavings on the ground, and also the tree stumps which had gone a kind of orange colour due to the rain. As we got closer still I could also smell the freshly cut wood.

Mali's 'alert level' went up as we got nearer - higher head, shorter, faster steps and ears that were practically meeting in the middle. I wasn't too bothered - no traffic to worry about - but the track isn't very wide at that point so I started thinking about what I was going to do next if she said she didn't want to go past. Anyway, I just sat there letting her walk on a loose rein waiting to see what she was going to do. I thought that perhaps I'd ask her to stop and let her have a few minutes to look at what it was, and I started to sit up a bit straighter and pick up my reins. But no need - Mali showed no signs of stopping, and although she was a bit snorty and felt ready to leap forwards at any second, marched past the tree stumps.

Safe to say that while I was really pleased with her, I was also utterly gobsmacked! I know that heading for home was probably a large factor, but she has done something similar before when we were going away from home. (Scary roadside sign, which necessitated going into the middle of the road but no inclination to stop or swing round.)

So I know I'm asking you to comment when most of you have never met me or Mali, but I'd be interested on your thoughts and experiences. Are some horses naturally braver than others? I don't know for certain but given her history I think it's very likely that she has previously been beaten (her previous trainer favoured alkathene piping)to get her to go past scary things. Is that likely to still influence her behaviour, even though she's been with us for 5 years and has learned that she can say 'no' to us? Any ideas welcome!

Hi Sam

Awwww, nice one!

While I would agree that some horses are braver than others I would also suggest that how the rider behaves will play a big part in how the horse behaves when faced with a scary situation.

Despite what some trainers teach about horses being prey animals and so in the face of something scary they will just flee and ask questions later, in real life I don't believe it's quite that straightforward. I think horses are perfectly capable of deciding whether something is scary and potentially life threatening or scary and in need of investigation. I think they will choose to learn about novel objects if given the opportunity - ethologically that makes sense to me as it's a big waste of energy fleeing from novel tree-stumps when there might be a lion around the next corner.

So often, if a horse is scared of something then the rider will immediately force/insist/cajole etc and the horse has to deal with it on the timescale suited to the rider. I really believe that this is more likely to cause the horse to panic and flee, just in case. If the horse is able to move, sidestep, sniff, snort, deal with it on his own timescale then I think it is much more likely to decide that it's scary but ok. It has time to realise that it doesn't need to flee. And sometimes you might need to do something in between to stretch that comfort zone - maybe allow the horse the movement and time he needs but gently keep him facing the right direction so that he continues to think about the threat rather than just turn and flee. Courage is something we are going to build by shaping the horse's ability to deal with novel situations.

So, assuming that really you are asking us whether you think Mali only went past because she still thinks there's a possibility that you might beat her up if she doesn't....... Errrrm, I would be surprised!!! Or she went past because you allowed her the time she needed to satisfy her curiosity and learn for herself that the tree stump warranted nothing more than a warning snort..... Errrrrm, I would have thoughts loads more likely!!

Catherine

This is a subject that facinates me since I have a horse who is NOT AT ALL brave. I have tried this from every angle and he clearly isn't as brave as others. If I ride another horse with preconceptions of his reactions they react differently - so it's not (entirely) my reactions. Like wise over 12 years I have tried everything from insisting and 'taking control' or at least trying to give that impression, to ignoring the item, to getting off and dragging him past, to getting him to sniff it.

I did read in EBF once that a horse takes 5 minutes to sus out a danger object and come to terms with it. I felt a bit guilty at that point thinking I had never waited as long as that to see if he could overcome it and how bad is that not to spare 5 minutes? There are times you can't on the roads but definitely times you can too. I gave this a whirl and mostly he took about 10 seconds. I was really shocked I ahd nevr actually waited 10 seconds to find that out, although 10 seconds can be a long time on a busy road with a horse moving anywhere at any speed!

A little observation. He was in the field with his mates and a plastic bag blew in. Dexter ran for his life, Warrior(mine) backed off and watched, Freckles stood there doing nothing, Oscar ran towards it looking for the contents to eat. A good demonstation of dirrering levels of bravery or maybe what they had individually learned about the contents of plastic bags!

Having thought this repsonse through it did occur to me the 10 second thing- it doesn't ALWAYS work, and doesn't work as well if you try to push to begin with or part way through (which ties up with something Catherine pointed out about horses finding it harde when pushed)

This does make it hard as Warrior will also stop wanting to eat/general napping, so if I don't notice the scary stuff and push him on then that can lead to a lengthy episode!
It's actiually not that ahrd to miss his idea of scary either, he has a cateract in one eye so we see a completely different picture, and his changes and moves.

Hi Sam,

I’m creeping a bit further out of lurkdom to fly the flag for learning theory on this one.

I suspect that phenotypically, some breeds/types may be less fearful than others.

In both your situations, Mali was on a loose rein, so no conflict that she couldn’t do what she chose, or had to do something she “didn’t want to”. She could flee to her perceived safety point, which she was able to do. Previous learning had taught her to make like a horse out hacking and walk from A to B, so that’s what she did (with added incentive of the homeward direction, where the tree stumps were concerned).

So, looks like part of the habituation process to me, where animals learn that not everything in their environment is scary, and they learn to tolerate potentially scary things at closer and closer range, if they are allowed to “flee” (avoid the object) to their safety point during that process. This makes evolutionary sense, because it wouldn’t be best use of resources if animals spent all their energy fleeing as far as possible from every potential threat each time it was encountered. At some point a foal has to learn that a rabbit isn’t scary! Really liked Catherine’s wording, “ethologically that makes sense to me as it's a big waste of energy fleeing from novel tree-stumps when there might be a lion around the next corner.”

Having witnessed parts of Mali’s previous history, the times I saw the piping was when her rider carried it like a whip during schooling sessions (yes dear reader, unbelievable but true). I didn’t see it used, but Mali’s behaviour suggested to me that she expected it to be used, so I’d say it was. I'd say Mali doesn’t associate you with the piping situations – you’re not the same person, she doesn’t live in the same place, isn’t ridden in the same manege or down the same section of the Middlewood Way, and I’m sure she sees you as a bringer of good things. As you say, she knows she can say “no”, that she has a choice. Lucky horse.

I suspect that phenotypically, some breeds/types may be less fearful than others

I certainly think this is possible but think we have to be very careful about generalising. For a start, maybe it's more correct to say some are more reactive than others. Some have a tendency to become more introverted/frozen when fearful, others are more likely to resort to flight/defensive aggression. And there are so many other factors, such as treatment by the owner etc.

I know I'm preaching to the converted but always get scared when anyone says anything that looks at the general picture rather than the individual.

I heard a great quote this week, don't know who said it first, but it summed up how I feel about statistics in relation to equine behaviour: "the average human being has one testicle and one breast". Made me chuckle....

This is a subject that facinates me since I have a horse who is NOT AT ALL brave. I have tried this from every angle and he clearly isn't as brave as others. If I ride another horse with preconceptions of his reactions they react differently - so it's not (entirely) my reactions. Like wise over 12 years I have tried everything from insisting and 'taking control' or at least trying to give that impression, to ignoring the item, to getting off and dragging him past, to getting him to sniff it.

Hi Sue

Have you read much about shaping? The best places I'd recommend to start are Karen Pryor's "Don't shoot the dog" and Ben Hart's e-book on shaping ( http://www.hartshorsemanship.com ). It's generally the key to increasing the ability of the horse to deal with scary situations at his pace, by moving in sufficiently tiny steps that you are getting continuous information about how the horse is feeling.

I did read in EBF once that a horse takes 5 minutes to sus out a danger object and come to terms with it

Hmmm, again this is one of those statements that make me think "eeek". It depends - in some cases the 10 seconds you allowed your horse would have been perfect so you shouldn't necessarily feel guilty. Some horses might take years, others might take a few seconds - there are so many factors, not least how ingrained and long-lived the fear, let alone the methods used to help (or intend to help....) the horse overcome that fear. Although obviously I agree with your point, that we need to be patient and allow the horse as long as he needs.

As for roads - you can still allow the horse the time he needs there as well. Again, it's back to shaping and choosing appropriate roads to start with. I have a busy A road to ride along from time to time and often have to contend with a random assortment of rubbish along the grass verge. I've learnt what Jak is likely to be able to step over bravely and what he needs to head out into the middle of the road to avoid. It's just a case of waiting patiently for a safe gap in the traffic before I push him out of his comfort zone and risk a detour into the middle of the road.

Catherine