Well, Sam the 16 month old labrador has arrived. At home he is adorable, unbelievably gentle with Billy and remarkably chilled and settled in.

Out and about he is a nightmare, no recall, pulls really strongly on the lead and so excited to be out that he's not interested in treats (yup, he's a labrador and still not interested in treats!). He's not castrated and doesn't take no for an answer when the bitch he's constantly trying to mount tells him to bugger off. All things that we can manage/train long term but any advice you have for me about damage mitigation in the short term would be fab!

We're consdiering castration but I hate that "playing God" mentality. Would you agree that it's probably the right thing to do given that we have no intention of breeding from him?

Who do you insure your dogs with?

Sorry so rushed, Billy's calling.....

Thanks
Catherine

Hi catherine,

>>>>no recall, pulls really strongly on the lead and so excited to be out that he's not interested in treats (yup, he's a labrador and still not interested in treats!). He's not castrated and doesn't take no for an answer when the bitch he's constantly trying to mount tells him to bugger off>>>>>>>.

here's my damage limitation until you have some training in place:

no recall -- keep him on a lead!!! (obvious I know but it really is the best way to manage this). My dogs don't get off a lead until they have demonstrated a solid recall first in the house, then in the garden, then out and about in more and more 'exciting' situations. That way, neither of us has to worry.

pulling on the lead - if you get a long training lead, you can make a figure of 8 with it that they can pull against but it doesn't knacker your arm up!! In general, mine are never on leads cos they understand my cue that means, 'walk at the side of me'. However, I still use figure of 8 lead occassionally, if for example, we 're walking in the Lake Distruct where they might have to be on lead most of the day if we're in a sheep area.

mounting - again, keep him on a lead!!!!!! Sorry if this sounds patronising but it really is your best way short term until you have some training in place. You don't want to be one of those annoying owners whose dog is the terror of the local bitch population!!!!! You might not know this yet, but owning a dog grants you access to a very exclusive club. However, you can get blackballed pretty quickly too if your dog causes problems (tee hee).

Not being interested in treats is, as I'm sure you've figured out, an indication of just how arousing he's finding being out in the big wide world. While he's this aroused, he's not going to be able to be the dream dog that I'm sure he will become. Maybe you need to increase his access to excitment more gently???

RE the castration thing - it will definately modify some of his behaviours. All my dogs have been entires (except for my current border collie who came castrated from the dogs trust). My choice to keep them entire wasn't a concious decision - its just simply that I've never had any problems associated with having them entire (including keeping entires together) so what was the point of a surgical procedure? Recent findings from the USA also suggest that castration is not the preventitive for certain types of disease that it was thought to be. If you believe the study, castrated dogs may even be at slightly higher risk of disease. In the end I guess it comes down to whether the dog has any behaviours that make castration the prefered option. I guess you're the best judge of that.
just my musings,
cath

Hi Cath

Thanks for all that and not patronising - I definitely need this sort of help until I can start to see him as a dog rather than a small horse! Sounds stupid but I guess kind of inevitable as well.

We're all getting to know each other and enjoying things a bit more - to start with I really was beginning to wonder if it was all a terrible mistake. But I feel better now. Our week's diary has been:

Wed - arrival, evening walk on lead near home, over-stimulated nightmare
Thurs - met friend with bitch at Jak's farm. Introduced on long line, bitch loose. Then took them to play in river. That was when he couldn't take no for answer
Fri - met same friend for walk around set-aside where we could let him loose and be pretty sure of getting him back because her recall is fine. And it's not a right of way or typical dog-walking route so less chance of meeting other dogs. He was still trying to sh*g her but at least we kept moving rather than just playing in small area. He was beginning to listen to her a bit more
Sat- back to the set-aside for attempt without his ladyfriend. But with Andy to help. All fine and enjoyable - phew, it might all be ok!
Sun am - quick whiz around block at home on lead. Still too strong for me (I can just about manage if I don't have Billy in sling) and not enjoyable but better than first time. He knows the length of an extendable lead and calms a bit at the full length
Sun pm - joined a local dog trainer one of their socialisation walks. Fab! He's still over friendly but nice with it and getting the hang of how to behave. Recall ok. Liked on of the bitches out of the 6 but she had just come out of season (as had the first bitch) so maybe that was it rather than a continual problem. We were encouraged to leave a long line trailing to help with recall and although it doesn't strike me as particularly safe, it seems like useful short-term tool so I can catch him more easily. Will go out with this group more often (although avoid the trainer's courses as her idea of "reward-based training" doesn't really tally with mine, sigh (same old crap!!!)
Today - same walk around set aside, just me, Sam and Billy. All fab until I got caught by gamekeeper! But turned on charm and all fine. Should be ok on rights of way now as long as not too doggy - and from riding I have some good routes lined up.

Quick pause to deal with nappy explosion......

So in summary, there's a long way to go with both recall and lead work but at least the recall is ok as long as I go well off the beaten doggy tracks. We'll do lots more socialisation stuff so I can get to know his behaviours more and he can learn more and more about how to behave. And when he's settled in a bit more I'll do some proper training, mainly leadwork and a bit of recall stuff (which I kind of see as on-going for ever!). He's a lovely boy and angelic at home, learning loads and settling in.

It's really interesting, I'm getting a much better understanding of that fine line doggy people have to tread between obedience to the point of being shut-down and enough obedience to be safe. And because Sam and I don't have a strong bond yet I can't trust him in the way I trust jak. And that makes my desire to control him so much more. Makes me feel very unlike me as normally be can be so laid back about Jak's behaviours. Hope I can lose this controlling streak as asap as I don't like it! But not until he's safe and not by resorting to strong aversives as my new trainer friends are so keen to teach us!

Thanks
Catherine

(PS Debbie, am still coming back to you on the thread you started - soon, I promise!)

Hi catherine,

You said:

>>>>It's really interesting, I'm getting a much better understanding of that fine line doggy people have to tread between obedience to the point of being shut-down and enough obedience to be safe.>>>>

When you have time, perhaps you could expand on this a bit - do you think its a finer line than with a horse???
I think one of the differences you MIGHT find is that you use a part of operant conditioning that you haven't really used much before with a horse i.e. -P. This is very effective with dogs if used correctly but doesn't really have a place a place in my horse training.

You also said:

>>>>And because Sam and I don't have a strong bond yet I can't trust him in the way I trust jak. And that makes my desire to control him so much more. Makes me feel very unlike me as normally be can be so laid back about Jak's behaviours. Hope I can lose this controlling streak as asap as I don't like it! But not until he's safe and not by resorting to strong aversives as my new trainer friends are so keen to teach us!>>>>>


I think there's a difference between being 'controlling' and being 'in control'. I like to think I am 'in control' of my dogs and therefore, they have all the freedom in the world. They come back when they're called (the first time) and they drop like stones if yell 'down'. Because of this, they're rarely on leads and can basically run free and express all their normal doggy behaviours. I think this is at the heart of why I get so bent out of shape sometimes when people talk about CT as giving the animal a choice. I'm not always sure thats completely accurate. When I ask something of my animals, I'm pretty clear in my own mind that they're going to do it. However, I think the way I train gives them the freedom to let me know if there;s a reason why they shouldn't or can't do it. e.g. I would trust my horses judgement 100% if he refused to get into the trailor. If he did this, then I would know there was some reason he shouldn't. I'm sure you know what I mean. However, I still believe that an animal that is under control (stimulus control if you like) in the end gets more freedom than an animal that truly is allowed to do whatever it wants.
Glad to hear that thiings are progressing with sam.
All the best,
Cath

Hi Catherine,
Suz told me about your new arrival - congratulations!! (again!!).

It's very early days at the moment and I know all too well that feeling of 'what have I done?' or in my case, 'my boyfriend is a complete f***wit to bring this lunatic home!'.

As Cath says, I trained Jasper's recall in the house and then the garden, then outside the house next to the woods and onto walks. The recalls were always practised BEFORE something exciting came along, maximizing the reinforcement of the treat (Jasper also wasn't interested until he'd been on a few walks). Like Sam, Jasper was very over-excited in the outside world and pulled like a train. I sadly never managed to cure the latter, as Mark walked him with his body at a 45 degree angle, so undoing any work I ever did!

He did calm down with more and more walks, though (as will Sam, I'm sure). I did lots of clicker work with Jasper and used targeting to keep him with me on walks (not 100% effective, but much improved). He was always a nutter off the lead, but became very well trained to recall - I made sure during practice that he was always let go again instantly, most of the time not even connecting a lead. You will learn in time to be quite diplomatic with other dog walkers, who seem to think recall is something people do on phones...

The castration issue is still a hot one. I found Jasper had problems with some dogs being aggressive towards him, something I've read can be due to hormone confusion in castrated dogs, but without a 'control' dog, who can say? I've met plenty of other dogs that didn't have issues so maybe I was unlucky!

Good luck!

Now that we're on the subject, I'd like to run an idea past everyone. My two females - by the way, they're getting on ok with big Reg (see other thread), but when Reg chases the GSPointer,(in fun) she attacks the (f) greyhound (who manages the situation very well) - go figure - this is not entirely by the way, because the question is: Could the two females' relationship be affected by the fact that the greyhound was spayed before her first heat, whereas the GS Pointer was spayed after hers? Could it be that this has clouded the signals?
Any thoughts on this?
Rita

When you have time, perhaps you could expand on this a bit - do you think its a finer line than with a horse???

I've had lots to think about over this and keep changing my mind now! But I do think there is a difference because with horses they generally come into contact with us and the odd other person. Dogs on the other hand are potentially running loose all over the countryside and meeting random strangers. And we live in a human world or potential fear, litigation, irrationality etc. I've never had a problem with loose dogs coming to greet me, even jumping up. But all of a sudden I have a dog I need to stop doing that because some people will feel threatened by it. And the fact that I don't have Sam under stimulus control means I feel scared. I don't have Jak under stimulus control very often either but we have found our own mutual ground where we both want to do the same things so it's less necessary. With Jak it's more of an offer to canter/stop/jump etc and I tend not to get into situations where I need to insist. With Sam I will need to insist.

I think one of the differences you MIGHT find is that you use a part of operant conditioning that you haven't really used much before with a horse i.e. -P. This is very effective with dogs if used correctly but doesn't really have a place a place in my horse training.

That's a good point. One thing I have got Sam to do very quickly is go to his bed when I come through the front door. We live on a busy road and the front door opens straight into the sitting room. I didn't trust him not to run out when I came in and I hate slamming the door in his face etc. So I would wait outside the slightly open door and tell him to go to his bed. He'd lie down a few times and I was a heartless cow and insisted on the bed, not just lying anywhere. And he got it. Now he bounds over to his bed as soon as I come in and cue him. There's probably an element of +R, -R and -P in all of that lot but I can't be arsed with semanticv right now!

I think there's a difference between being 'controlling' and being 'in control'. I like to think I am 'in control' of my dogs and therefore, they have all the freedom in the world. They come back when they're called (the first time) and they drop like stones if yell 'down'. Because of this, they're rarely on leads and can basically run free and express all their normal doggy behaviours. I think this is at the heart of why I get so bent out of shape sometimes when people talk about CT as giving the animal a choice. I'm not always sure thats completely accurate. When I ask something of my animals, I'm pretty clear in my own mind that they're going to do it. However, I think the way I train gives them the freedom to let me know if there;s a reason why they shouldn't or can't do it. e.g. I would trust my horses judgement 100% if he refused to get into the trailor. If he did this, then I would know there was some reason he shouldn't. I'm sure you know what I mean. However, I still believe that an animal that is under control (stimulus control if you like) in the end gets more freedom than an animal that truly is allowed to do whatever it wants.

Yup I think I agree with all that. But the flip side is that the animals don't know that the little bit of free will we take away will actually benefit them in the long run. They don't know they live in a human-controlled world. So it comes down to removing that little bit of free will in the most ethical way possible and making sure they genuinely are better off afterwards.

And I too think that clicker won't necessarily give choice. Only free shaping can do that and I'm yet to meet anyone who uses that alone. It is a great tool for choice in certain contexts, depending on the horse.

As for the spaying/castration issues - Rita, who can say?! I suppose it could be something like that but could it not also be some redirected hierarchy type stuff. I've seen horses do similar (and I'm using hierarchy in the loosest sense of the word...!)

Catherine

Blimey this is an interesting discussion! On a purely practical note, Cath can you explain further the figure of eight and what type of lead you use it with please? I've got golfer's elbow, apparently (from years of rein-pulling, oh the shame!), and it recurs whenever I dog-sit my sister's dogs - they pull on the lead, and I keep my elbow joint flexed, rather than doing the "dog on a stick" impression, as it seems to lessen the pulling to some extent, but my elbow joint takes a lot of hammer.
Thanks,
Debbie

Hi Debbie,
Sorry for the delay - I've been away this weekend and am just catching up.
The leads I use are made of parachute material and are very soft on your hands and have a bit of give in them. They are 6 foot long and have three metal rings at about a foot apart so you can adjust the length of the lead. Most decent pet suppliers will stock them. I attach the clip to the end ring (nearest the handle) then wrap the whole lead round the front of the dogs chest. I then cross the loop back over the lead - its not quite a figure of eight but thats the nearest thing I can think of. If i can get computer literate enough to upload a diagram (assuming I can draw!!!!) i'll do that later.
This lead arrangement works fine for me with my GSD who is large even for a GSD. I;'m not tall at 5 foot 2. This arrangement of the lead is my dogs signal that they don't have to concentrate too hard and just do whatever they want given the confines of the lead.
Hope that helps,
cath

Hi Cath,

Thanks for the info, I'm off to my local pet shop on Friday then! I don't quite get how it's supposed to work, but once I see one I'll prob have a better idea. It doesn't activate any pressure points on dogs that I don't know about does it, like a Parelli-type halter does on horses? I've heard varying reports about the types of harnesses that go round (pinch?) shoulders, elbows etc. I'm completely ignorant of anything that isn't an old-fashioned collar and lead, which my own dogs hardly ever wore anyway.

Cheers,

Debbie

Hi debbie,
No, is doesn't activate any pressur epoints - its just an ordinary lead that you attach to a collar. It just has some extra rings on it so you can shorten it. You basically make a loop around the front of the dogs body that they can pull against themselves. The arrangement of the lead in your hand just stops it from knackering your arm up. I'm still working on a drawing of how it looks but I'm not doing ery well at the moment. I'll mail you off group when I've got it cracked!!!
cath

just a thought but could you take a photo of the dog wearing it?