I even have Sky now so can watch it! Does anyone know more? Esp who the "experts" are?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jzyfw

I didn't realise this was on.

Did anyone watch it?

Don't worry(!), not til next week

Did anyone watch this? I forgot about it.

Yes - head in hands, wincing, shouting at the television etc etc

The two participants were actually pretty good, keen to learn and take part. just a shame so much of what they were learning was dodgy. I was appalled, not just because of the inanity but also because it was so dangerous for the participants (and I say that despite my usual disregard for health + safety!).

Two main examples - the woman living with a herd of TBs (barn at night, field by day) wasn't allowed to use her hands to touch the horses because that's not what they do. So she had her hands in her pockets and ended up getting bitten because the horse was mugging her. Then she was encouraged to work her way "up the pecking order" doing round-pen type stuff with the lowest ranking horse. Then free leading/loading stuff with the supposed herd leader. Since he followed her into the lorry and out she was led to believe she was now lead horse (rather than just repeating what were clearly learnt behaviours). So next feeding time (she was living off mix out of a bucket!!) she was encouraged to prove she was leader by stealing food off a horse and she got kicked in the process, thereby increasing her fear of horses when she came on the programme to overcome it. I just can't believe the ignorance of the bloody expert. Who is Emma Massingale anyway? Never heard of her.

The second expert was Vannessa Bee of Positive Horsemanship (aka NH!). She came off better although still talked rubbish at times about leadership etc. They had the bloke living rough with a herd of feral Exmoors and he did really well at quietening down his body language and being accepted. But I would say accepted as a human rather than a horse !!!

But all is not lost if you missed it - there's a doggy one tomorrow!

Catherine

hi (from a newbie)

I watched it too - hoping against hope that there would be something other than the leadership/pecking order stuff in it - but obviously that wasn't to be. I thought the whole set up was incredibly dangerous, having complete novices round horses, day and night, trying to defend buckets of food from them - even the guy who lived with the exmoors had to eat his apples out of a bucket - and of course all the horses crowded round him - scary stuff!!

I felt sorry for the girl who got kicked - couldn't believe how irresponsible the 'expert' was. I don't think I've ever seen anything much crazier than having a nervous novice creep up behind a large thoroughbred in the dark and to try to send it away from its food!

At the end of the programme they spoke to a slaughter man, who said that horses commit suicide when they are in a lot of pain, by banging their heads against a wall, and so he has found horses with severe head injuries. I can only think that he has seen horses who have been cast, or who have colic - I've never heard of horses committing suicide before? I'd love to know if anyone else has experience of this.

The TV programme sounds awful, but about the "horses committing suicide" issue - wouldn't the head-banging just be a reaction to pain/distress, rather than a putting-an-end-to-it-all, intentional plan? One can readily believe that a slaughterman would be in an excellent position to see such behaviour.........unfortunately. (Head-pressing (according to Mc Greevey) is an attempt to stabilise the effects of a posture disorder - no mention of banging, but this wouldn't, presumably, cause head injuries.)

well, yes, that is what I would have thought - but the slaughterman was absolutely adamant it was suicide - he used the word 'suicide' - and he spoke as though he was a very experienced slaughterman - I can't quite remember but I think he said he'd destroyed more than 3,000. I guess he must have just been misinterpreting the behaviour. Not a good thing to say to distraught owners though, when he finds a horse in that condition, to say that their horse has tried to kill itself.

Could someone explain a little bit more to me about McGreevy's work on head pressing in horses -I don't know anything about that. Thanks.

The running obsession with dominance drove me up the wall too. How many people, having listened to these "experts", will now be convinced that the key to successful relations with horses is getting yourself recognized as another higher-ranking horse??

Anyway, here's what I wrote on another forum while I was watching the programme on my computer in another window:

--- start quote ---

"leader.. up through the hierarchy.. bottom of the herd" etc etc ad nauseam

Nutcase: "She has to... mimic the aggressive breathing and head movements they use to dominate each other". Emma: "You are the leader over Becs" Argh!!

On the other hand, Garren(?)'s calmness and willingness to engage with the horses is impressive. His laid back attitude is really helping him.

Vanessa Bee is the best of the experts, imho.

"Licking and chewing.. that shows acceptance" Hmm, if you say so..

LOL at the horse rubbing its bottom on the round bale.

Artificial tail seems to be more of a hindrance than a help, but the guy is doing some nice habituation with it now. Perhaps.

Some rather unsafe covering practice.

Garren: "And is it always like this?"
Expert: "Yeah! they quite often get aggressive towards him, and kick him and bite him and chase him round as well.."
Garren: "But that's good?"
Expert: "Yeah, that's a good sign"
sigh

Nice demo of confidence in leading horse up into lorry. (Nothing to do with being dominant though!)

Poor Zoe - that bl**dy hurt!

"No serious physical damage".. but her confidence will have taken a bad knock.

I can't help thinking how damn foolish it was to encourage all that messing about with "ranking".

"Wicked, Mr Horse" Well done, Garren!

--- end quote ---

And here's a thread I started on yet another forum about food and dominance. My question elicited a range of replies, with more people coming out against using denial of access to food to show ranking that I thought there would be - which is nice.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184357

(Hope it's alright to post a link to a different forum!)

I'd expect the slaughterman to be adamant that horses self-destruct, but it seems an over-interpretation of behaviour to me. Animals in traps have been known to gnaw off limbs "to" escape, but I wouldn't describe this as expedient amputation. It's probably more to do with his own self-justification than the horses' will to die. ("You see? they do it themselves!").

How disappointing that all this dominance drivel is still current. Common sense tells one that if there are dominance issues in primates (any views on this?) that these issues probably won't be present, or will work in a very different way, in other, very different, species. (I found "Dr.Tatiana's Sex Guide for all Creation" a most useful read for expanding one's ideas of just how vast is the range of behaviours amongst the species! - can't lay my hand on it to give the author, but someone may know it off-hand?.

"How disappointing that all this dominance drivel is still current."

Still current and more popular than ever, as far as I can tell. One can speculate why this particular meme is so successful. I personally think it's because, for many people, it provides a logical framework that appears to explain a range of behaviours shown by horses towards other horses and to people. It is also a convenient scapegoat when things go wrong, and it offers a seemingly simple remedy - typically involving something being "(re)established"!

The meme has mutated into slightly different varieties in recent years, often with dominance and dominating being deprecated in favour of "leadership". Leadership has greater appeal because it is less well defined, so it can mean whatever a person wants within a quite broad spectrum of possible meanings. It allows much nicer and more virtuous connotations. It is fuzzy enough to encompass the idea of horses choosing to follow (which I have no problem with), although almost invariably it is contaminated with implications of a "strong" individual controlling, deciding, giving orders, and deserving respect.

And surely, also, because we are primates and WE work like that!

Would echo what's been said above and add that I thought the bloke, Garren?, had better insights than the expert!!

What struck me was the difference in how genuine Garren's behaviour was (when left on his own!) and how far it got him compared to the falseness in the girl as encouraged by her 'expert', and where it got her, poor thing.

The other part which sticks in my mind is when Garren was defending his food and was only as large as he needed to be to get the Exmoors to move away - just enough assertiveness, without aggression. Lovely.

"And surely, also, because we are primates and WE work like that!"

Yes, that too - I am sure you are right, Rita.

Just been reading another thread in which someone asked for advice about a horse who has started to become nippy even though "I think he does still view me as the head mare". The three replies suggested: 1) "brush up on your leadership", 2) he "is just beginning to test your leadership skills" and 3) "ensure he knows you are the leader". This is not unusual advice nowadays.

"The other part which sticks in my mind is when Garren was defending his food and was only as large as he needed to be to get the Exmoors to move away - just enough assertiveness, without aggression. Lovely."

It was great to see how quickly he picked up 'body language' by himself, despite what he was being told. In fairness to Vanessa Bee, she was quite helpful at one stage in getting him to move more 'quietly', and it looked like Garren took that on board.