Old Ed got in the last word but where is OZ 2wife Chad?

BIA head's letter raises questions on rights

By CLIFTON ADCOCK World Staff Writer
Published: 6/26/2009 2:24 AM
Last Modified: 6/26/2009 3:26 AM

A decision by the new head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs puts the Tahlequah-based United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians on equal jurisdictional footing with the Cherokee Nation and states that neither is the historical Cherokee tribe.

"The historical Cherokee Nation no longer exists as a distinct political entity," Larry EchoHawk wrote.

The decision has other implications, as well.

Unlike the Cherokee Nation, the UKB does not have any land in trust, although it has been fighting for that status. The decision by EchoHawk, obtained by the Tulsa World on Thursday, says the Keetoowahs and the Cherokee Nation have equal rights on land-trust issues.

EchoHawk's decision raises questions as to whether a recent U.S. Supreme Court decision prevents either tribe and many other tribes from putting land into trust status with the federal government.

EchoHawk's decision arises from a 2004 attempt by the UKB to put 76 acres of land with a community services building on it into trust.

The application was denied by the Bureau of Indian Affairs' regional director, who cited jurisdictional conflicts with the Cherokee Nation.

The decision was appealed by the tribe and bounced back and forth between Washington and the regional director until the decision was reached by EchoHawk, who was confirmed as head of the BIA in May and is scheduled to be sworn in Friday morning.

"There is no reason, on the face of the (1946 Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act),
that the Keetoowah Band would have less authority than any other band or tribe," EchoHawk wrote.

The opinion also states that neither the UKB nor the current Cherokee Nation, which EchoHawk referred to as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, is the historical Cherokee Nation and that both the UKB and Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma are "successors in interest" to the original tribe.

In his footnotes, EchoHawk wrote that although the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma states there is no difference between it and the historical Cherokee Nation, when Congress closed the tribal rolls in 1907, it effectively imposed a sunset provision on its relationship with the historical tribe.

The federal relationship would exist so long as its enrollees survived, an argument the UKB and dissidents within the Cherokee Nation have often made.

"The historical Cherokee Nation as it existed in 1934 no longer exists as a distinct political entity," EchoHawk wrote.

More than 100 years after the tribal rolls closed, "few, in any, o(f) its original members are still alive."

"The CNO is a new political organization, therefore, because the historical (Cherokee Nation) no longer exists and the CNO government is a new government," he wrote.

EchoHawk's classification of not only the UKB but also the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma as "new governments" and "successors in interest" to the original tribe raises questions as to whether the Cherokee Nation, which already has land in trust, can put any more land in trust.

Such status is necessary for the tribe's gambling operations as well as other sovereign tribal functions.

In February, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Carcieri v. Salazar, a Rhode Island case, that land cannot be put into trust for any tribe that is not recognized by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934.

However, EchoHawk wrote that there are questions as to whether tribes that are successors in interest, such as the UKB, recognized in 1950, and the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, recognized in 1975, can stand in the place of their predecessor that was recognized by the Indian Reorganization Act.

The "successor in interest" issue and the Carcieri ruling, however, have far wider implications than the Keetoowahs and the Cherokees, and the UKB's appeal "raises issues with national implications which the Department needs to study further," EchoHawk wrote.

"It implicates many tribes," he wrote. "The Department is in the process of analyzing this and other issues raised by Carcieri."

Meanwhile, the Keetoowahs' trust application was remanded back to the regional director to complete necessary paperwork and will be held until the BIA can decide exactly what the secretary's powers are to put land into trust. EchoHawk also wrote that the Cherokee Nation's consent is not needed for the UKB to place land in trust.

Because the tribe has no land in trust, "the UKB has a need for this land to be taken in trust," EchoHawk wrote.

The two tribes, both based in Tahlequah, have battled for years over jurisdiction, with the Cherokee Nation often winning out over the smaller tribe.

UKB Chief George Wickliffe said in a statement Thursday night that it was a monumental day for the tribe.

"It's a very historical moment for the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians," Wickliffe stated. "This decision shows great support for the tribe."

Cherokee Nation spokesman Mike Miller said the ruling does nothing to overturn the Cherokee Nation's status as the historical Cherokee Nation and that federal courts have repeatedly stated that the current tribe is the original entity not a successor in interest.

Miller said the letter does not hold the weight of law and that the decision's arguments have been struck down previously by the courts.

"It's important to have a little perspective when you read this letter, because it is preposterous for anyone to think that the footnote of an administrative letter overturns federal case law and centuries of recorded history," Miller said.

Clifton Adcock 581-8462
clifton.adcock@tulsaworld.com
By CLIFTON ADCOCK World Staff Writer

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Report Comment
DT, (6/26/2009 8:00:08 AM)
In the landmark Harjo case, the federal courts said that, although the governments of all five tribes had been "expressly continued", it was the BIA's policy to "act like they had been destroyed". The court called this nothing less than "bureaucratic imperialism". With this opinion, Mr. Echohawk seems determined to take this to new heights and define an indigenous people according to the whims of the same colonialist mentality, rather than recognizing their right to define themselves. Congratulations, Mr. Echohawk. You haven't even been sworn in yet, and already you have made a mockery of every promise Pres Obama made when he campaigned seeking the support of Indian people.
Report Comment
Graybeard, Tulsa (6/26/2009 9:18:45 AM)
Mr. Obama promised a lot of things to the American people. He promised "Change". I fear much of the change we will not like. So DT......get off your chair and speak to your Senators and Representatives....I do. We all must take a stand for what we believe in and for what is right and just....and not let someone jam an edict or law down our throats.
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Ed 8 R, Non (6/26/2009 9:26:39 AM)
Come on "DT" is that the best you can do? You Chad Smith, Mike Miller spin doctors need to start looking for a real job. The so-called Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma has just had their cover pulled away and now the World can plainly see the nasty deed in which they are engaged. Again you attack the messenger, Mr. Echohawk, for doing his job according to law. Got some news for you DT and the other interlopers that are attempting to divert public opinion from the truth. Federal Court will not be considering your propaganda. The Courts will rule according to law. The same law this well founded decision compiled by Mr. Echohawk presented.
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/26/2009 9:34:31 AM)
This will play out in court for years, Eddie. Don't get too excited.
Report Comment
Mike Miller, Catoosa (6/26/2009 10:27:06 AM)
Its important to have a little perspective when you read this letter because it is preposterous for anyone to think that the footnote of an administrative letter overturns federal case law and centuries of recorded history.

While the Department of Interior may have the luxury of ignoring federal law and opinions from federal courts, the Cherokee Nation does not follow that practice. As recently as this month, the United States Court of Appeals 10th Circuit rejected the very arguments that are put forward in this administrative letter, in its decision, UKBCIO vs. HUD. The federal courts have ruled in favor of the Cherokee Nation and against the UKBCIO on this issue so many times that in the most recent case it only spent one sentence throwing out the entire argument, because there was no use rehashing it. In fact, the courts have time and again held that the Cherokee Nation today is indeed the historic Cherokee Nation, which is why the Cherokee Nation has treaty rights and the UKBCIO does not, and why the Cherokee Nation has a treaty-based geographical area.

This letter does not have the force of law, but federal court opinions do. And the court opinions, cited in the letter and backed up earlier this month, say that the Cherokee Nation today is the historic Cherokee Nation. Federal courts say the Cherokee Nation has treaty rights and jurisdiction and the UKBCIO does not. Federal courts say the Cherokee Nation needs no successor in interest at all, and that the UKBCIO is most certainly NOT a successor in interest. Federal courts disagree with almost every historic premise upon which this administrative letter are based.

While it is obvious that the letters author has sympathy for the fact that the UKBCIO does not have treaty rights, the BIA cannot throw out 300 years of recorded Cherokee history and federal law based on sympathy alone.
Report Comment
Ed 8 R, Non (6/26/2009 10:35:30 AM)
I see where you stand Whatie, right behind the horse's tail with a bucket of cold water just after breeding. Please excuse my crude example but a splash of cold water immediately after copulation does two things. One it instantly removes the obvious transpired action but at the same time seizes the seed for gestation. You spin doctors think you are clearing evidence of the penetration by Mr. Echohawk,s decision but only help to make fast the seed of truth regarding the status of the so-called Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. Was that too exciting for you, from where you stand Whatie?
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/26/2009 11:15:06 AM)
Eddie: Read post above yours. I rest my case.
Report Comment
Oldfatdude, Shattrath (6/26/2009 11:16:33 AM)
Just seems silly to me. I don't know any of the facts, but it would appear that if the two groups came together they would both benefit.
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/26/2009 11:21:12 AM)
Yes, Oldfatdude, it most certainly would. But you have forces behind the scenes (i.e. Ed, JC, etc) that keep things stirred up. It will never end. We'll all be gone and it still will not be settled.
Report Comment
Gambler, tahlequah (6/26/2009 11:39:00 AM)
Mr. Miller apparently decides to plea his case based on small and shady court decision victories that hold no real relevance to the decision to allow the UKB trust status. I would ask that everyone look at the facts and ask themselves "which tribe did it the LEGAL way to begin with?" Since you are so concerned about the "legal" perspective Mrs. Miller then why in black and white, fact not fiction, does it plainly stste the UKB was infact reorganized under the Indian Reorganization Act 25 years prior to CNO? Guess facts aren't somrthing that CNO is willing to quote or discuss! You might also ask yourself wh rejected the original 2005 application...that's right, a member of CNO that based her decision on absolute B.S. Figure it out an let's not be too greedy Mrs. Miller. Send my regrads to Mrs. Smith.
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Gambler, tahlequah (6/26/2009 11:51:59 AM)
"Centuries of recorded history"...yeah lets take a peek and see who's foot lands directly in their mouth with that comment. Nice going Mrs. Miller, dig yourself a deeper hole in regards to this argument! There is no question that the UKB deserves equal rights and opportunity and if this decision doesn't affect CNO, then why keep appealing and bullying the UKB? Oh, because your endless supply of royalty checks may become decreasingly less! Try helping your tribal members more often instead of stuffing your pockets. I can promise you the UKB will use the additional funds FOR THE PEOPLE!
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missy,,,m, no thanks (6/26/2009 12:15:51 PM)
Ha?
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snakeman, tahlequah (6/26/2009 2:05:55 PM)
The Cherokee people are one of the same. UKB or CN, but Chad Smith once being a UKB member, is no longer a member. The UKB kicked him out. HUD gave back to the UKB it's money for housing that the C.N. tried to eliminate. C.N also said that the UKB could not hold land in trust. This measure says it can. We as Cherokees cannot continue to fight amongst ourselves. The poor cherokees who need services get nothing,but the run-around by those leaders who continue to fight over who has power to do what they do. The BIA still has power given to them by the Federal Government to police policy of all tribes. Until the BIA is no longer a player of decisions, it will always favor what the Federal Government wants. Treaties are what they are. Some have merit some don't. Depends on which court judges rule on. We win and few, we lose a few. That's have its been for ages since the settlers of the east have done to the Native Americans. The real Cherokees are the full- bloods. Who do not have a real voice in either governments. It's the cherokee wannabees who make the decisions and make the most noise. I was a Cherokee way before it was cool to be cherokee or any kind of Native American. Most of the people in charge now when i was in school did't want to be call a indian or say they are cherokee even when they were by blood. Now they say i'm cherokee. Why can't we just be Cherokee period. The issue will feed the ones who want noting more than see us Cherokees going down.
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snakeman, tahlequah (6/26/2009 2:12:36 PM)
The Cherokee people are one of the same. UKB or CN, but Chad Smith once being a UKB member, is no longer a member. The UKB kicked him out. HUD gave back to the UKB it's money for housing that the C.N. tried to eliminate. C.N also said that the UKB could not hold land in trust. This measure says it can. We as Cherokees cannot continue to fight amongst ourselves. The poor cherokees who need services get nothing,but the run-around by those leaders who continue to fight over who has power to do what they do. The BIA still has power given to them by the Federal Government to police policy of all tribes. Until the BIA is no longer a player of decisions, it will always favor what the Federal Government wants. Treaties are what they are. Some have merit some don't. Depends on which court judges rule on. We win a few, we lose a few. That's have its been for ages since the settlers of the east have done to the Native Americans. The real Cherokees are the full- bloods. Who do not have a real voice in either governments. It's the cherokee wannabees who make the decisions and make the most noise. I was a Cherokee way before it was cool to be cherokee or any kind of Native American. Most of the people in charge now when i was in school did't want to be call a indian or say they are cherokee even when they were by blood. Now they say i'm cherokee. Why can't we just be Cherokee period. The issues will feed the ones who want noting more than see us Cherokees going down.
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/26/2009 2:12:52 PM)
I hear you, Snakeman.
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AnativeTulsan, Tulsa (6/26/2009 7:23:03 PM)
Open a casino. MO MONEY MO MONEY
Report Comment
tao4mind, Enid (6/26/2009 8:13:35 PM)
Hole in the sky.
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Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/26/2009 8:53:52 PM)
The cheroke nation is alive and well is true but the cherokee people generally are descendants of cherokees. Like most if not all indian nations in oklahoma, the cherokee fullbloods are near extinction and the majority of the people in the cheroke nation have less than 1/16 cherokee blood. The genocidal extinction of Indians has been a long slow painful process varying from outright murder, genocidal sterilization of Indian women to economic exclusion. The white people with one drop of indian blood are laughing all the way to the bank. Indian casinos are a way to ease the conscious of the caring americans to feel no shame at the extinction of fullblood indians. The policy of war against the indians has turned into a war by policy. The department of war turned into the bureau of indian affairs and todays indian governments are creatures of the BIA. I know of fullblood cherokees and fullblood indians working for minimum wages and several families living in a house so they can survive. The more things seem to change the more things stay the same. I hope all you christians burn in hell for aiding and abetting this genocide against the indians. and all gods children said amen and amen.
Report Comment
TK1, (6/27/2009 2:10:27 AM)
Lightning, when you hope Christians burn in hell, does that include Native American Christians?
Report Comment
Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 4:40:38 AM)
Most definitely, many of the Native American christians are apples and furthuring the extinction of fullbloods. Many have been on the dole to provide for themselves and to heck with the people of their nation. There are christians that do not support the murdering of Indians, stealing their land, keeping their land both Native american and non N.A. ust because your christian does not mean your no good. Either you aid and abet the extinction of fullblood Indians or you dont. Many christians have fought for the release of Leonard Peltier because of the fraud perpetuated by the FBI and us government. Most christians dont even care enough to educate themselves about Indian affairs they just listen to the apple Indians running tribal affairs and think the Indians are doing well because of casinos. The christians running tribal affairs are harsher on the fullbloods and are helping get rid of the Indian problem through exclusion. Its a long story and I have been telling it for many years. Educate yourself some. When the christians work to return the Black Hills to the nonchristian Indians, get Leonard Peltier released and work to prevent the extinction of fullblood Indians I will quit arguing for them to burn in hell because I will know they understand.
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Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 4:56:27 AM)
ps Indian children were forcibly taken from their homes and put in christian boarding schools where they were physically and mentally abused, raped, prevented from speaking their language and spirituality and turned into white thinking christians. The white thinking apples are the ones running Indian governments. Just thought you may want to know
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Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 5:13:16 AM)
I should say I believe it is the Indian women of the Indian methodist church that united and wrote a resolution condemning the genocidal sterilization of Indian women here in Oklahoma. I dont know these women personally, I think I read about it in the Tulsa World newspaper here while back. I am not the only one that knows right from wrong and working to bring awareness and change for Native Americans. I support these christian women and believe their resolution caused them friction with many christians. I wonder if they have been censored from the church or excommunicated? I would like to learn of their continuing efforts.
Report Comment
TK1, (6/27/2009 7:58:11 AM)
So Lightning, your answer to sins against Native Americans is to condemn their offspring to hell?
Report Comment
Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 8:49:32 AM)
TK1 you missed the boat. My answer is to right the wrongs as best as can be done. The past is past and judgment day is coming and there is nothing that can be done for them. My answer is for the christians to become aware of the impending extinction of many races of people in america and realized it is because of christianity. The christians invaded this land, murdered the iNdians, stole their lands and are keeping their lands. The policy of war against the Indians has turned into a war by policy against the Indians. Christians should try to might these wrongs by helping to prevent the extinction of fullblood Indians in all Indian Nations, free Leonard Peltier and give back the Black Hills for starters. Instead of giving the white people with one drop of INdian blood most of INdian resources at the very least increase the resources available for fullblood Indians and their babies. I have debated all across america and if you are not of the mind to understand what I promote there is no way I can make you understand. There are a lot of people from college professors, to politicians to people that cannot read or write english that understands my positions.
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TK1, (6/27/2009 9:08:02 AM)
Lighting, you say your mission is to teach, but then you also say,

" I hope all you christians burn in hell for aiding and abetting this genocide against the indians."

That statement is pretty clear. There is no misunderstanding. You will never get your message across through hatred and in trying you are demonstrating the same qualities that you most detest in the Christians that have disappointed you.
Report Comment
Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 9:56:36 AM)
TK1, do you actually think I think my writings are going to change the world. ah ah ha ha and do you think I care what you and the christians running america think. Do as you please and face judgment day just like I will. The teaching I do is a side, I do this for fun. There is no help or hope for america and the christians that aid and abet murder, theft, and extinction of a race. Hitler only wish he could do to the Jews what americas christians has done and are doing to the Indians.
Report Comment
TK1, (6/27/2009 10:45:11 AM)
Lightning,

Hating for fun?
Report Comment
Me Again, (6/27/2009 10:50:40 AM)
Well Folks ole Ed8R got it all down to a T, and the Cornsilks can say we toad ya so, CNOT is not the Cherokee Nation!

John Cornsilk Real Cherokee Descendant,
member of CNOT and UKB Too!
Purveyor of Simple Truth!
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/27/2009 11:04:50 AM)
Lightning needs to get a life. Such a sad individual.
Report Comment
cherokeeprincess, (6/27/2009 11:24:20 AM)
I cannot believe Echohawk can be an Indian and be so ignorant of Indian history. I guess he believes the Trail of Tears didn't happen either.
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cherokeeprincess, (6/27/2009 11:33:36 AM)
The UKB is just a group of Cherokees who took their marbles and decided to play their game somewhere else. They created their own "band" and won federal recognition, but they are still just an off shoot of the original Cherokee tribe. And, btw, we are the Cherokee Nation, period, not the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I don't know why people want to get that so wrong. Good grief, folks, study Indian history.
Report Comment
Mr. Lightning, OKC (6/27/2009 12:03:26 PM)
If you thought like I do you would hate but I definitely do not think like you do. I dont hate yall I just like to rub your noses in your history. I have had a wonderful life with athletics, academics, music, family, friends, travel and spirituality. Now I am going to eat some filipino food yummy after a morning of being with my wife garage sale shopping. I am working on my home and garden and cooling off on the computer. Yall should get a life. My writings condemn yall to hell but dont forget I am not god. ps I dont know everything either but dont tell everybody. ah ha ha ha
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/27/2009 12:45:25 PM)
Who you condemn has absolutely no relevance in any of our lives, Lightning (Mr. deliberately excluded), you poor,pitiful soul. What you do doing your day is of no importance to us. DUH?
Report Comment
Ed 8 R, Non (6/27/2009 5:35:27 PM)
Mike Miller said; This letter does not have the force of law. I have to ask; what makes Mike Miller qualified to make such a determination? Mr. Miller is 100% white and claims Cherokee Citizenship due to his ancestors purchase of Cherokee Citizenship. Mr. Miller is not a lawyer but is a paid PR spokesperson for Chad Smith and the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. The Echohawk letter does have the force of law. Mike Millers statement is propaganda and is just outrageous! I cannot believe the CNO cronies are actually espousing such nonsense and even dare to characterize a formal legal opinion of a federal agency clearly setting forth a legal decision on the merits as not being "law." They are scoundrels or idiots or both! Consider the hypocrisy; a recent issue concerning term limits where the opinion of Diane Hammons granted Chad Smith the ability to run for 4 consecutive terms where the CNO constitution limits terms to 2 was treated as law. Now in the CNO press we see Hammons saying, Echohawk is wrong.

Hes just wrong, she said. He couldnt be more wrong. Were sorry, but hes gotten some bad advice from some of the people in his office.

So I ask you who has credibility? Who do you believe?
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/27/2009 10:40:31 PM)
Eddie: Go back to bed.
Report Comment
DT, (6/28/2009 8:02:30 AM)
Ed, "who do you believe?" Well, if you believe the BIA, you are on the losing side! Harjo takes the BIA to the woodshed for just such an example of denying the truth of law and imposing its heavy-handed methods on the 5 Tribes. Ditto for Hodel. An administrative memo does NOT carrty the force of law that a federal court decision does. Echohawk is trying to apply Carcieri when it clearly doesn't apply. There are two many earlier decisions that uphold the rights of the 5 tribes to reorganize, EITHER under the OIWA OR as an act of inherent sovereignty. Not as "successors in interest" but as the continuation of the historic entity. This is truly a stupid move on Echohawk's part.
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cherokeeprincess, (6/28/2009 4:13:51 PM)
I agree with DT. I can't believe Echohawk is so stupid.
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Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 7:38:29 PM)
And I quote: "Stupid is as stupid does" - Gump -

Here we have several no-named pundits of a racist administration illegally claiming the sovereign status of the Cherokee Nation spewing negative over the credentials and reputation of John Echohawk.

Again I ask you; Who are you going to believe?
Report Comment
Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 8:06:27 PM)
Here are just some of Echohawk's accomplishments:

John Echohawk, Executive Director of the Native American Rights Fund, will deliver the keynote speech at the Eleventh Annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Commemoration at Utah Valley State College.

Echohawk will also accept the second annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Award for the Advancement of Justice and Human Dignity on behalf of the Native American Rights Fund (NARF). NARF, founded in 1970, has been involved in legal battles concerning treaty enforcement, federal recognition of tribes, land and water-rights claims, and other issues facing American Indian tribes and individuals. His alma matter, the University of New Mexico Law School, notes that NARF and Echohawk have "been involved in most of the major Native American litigation" since the 1970s.

Echohawk was a co-founder of NARF and has served as its Executive Director since 1977. A member of the Pawnee Tribe, he is also on the board of organizations such as the Natural Resources Defense Council and the National Center for American Indian Enterprise Development.

The National Law Journal has consistently named Echohawk one of the 100 most influential lawyers in the nation, and he has received a number of national awards from human rights groups and other organizations, as well as speaking frequently at colleges and other forums.
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What the ?, Tulsa (6/28/2009 8:42:41 PM)
Thanks for our daily laugh, Eddie.
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Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 9:51:16 PM)
How much more can you stand whatie?

You want to be funny too?

Put up the resume of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith so we can compare them to Mr. Echohawk the one they want to discredit.
Report Comment
What the ?, Tulsa (6/28/2009 10:17:56 PM)
Give it up, Silly. I'm done here. Your questions are ridiculous, as always.
Report Comment
DT, (6/29/2009 7:00:37 AM)
Stupid is as stupid does, indeed. Ed, John Echohawk is not LARRY Echohawk.
Report Comment
Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 8:37:33 AM)
Woops! How stupid and silly of me to make such a mistake. I hope no one thinks I was avoiding Larry Echohawk's record for comparison to that of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith. So here's Larry:

Larry EchoHawk (born August 2, 1948 in Cody, Wyoming) is an attorney and legal scholar. On May 20, 2009, Echowawk joined the administration of US President Barack Obama as the head of the United States Bureau of Indian Affairs.[1] He served as Attorney General of Idaho from 1991 to 1995, the first Native American elected to a constitutional statewide office.
EchoHawk was raised in Farmington, New Mexico. He attended Brigham Young University on a football scholarship (playing as a safety), then received his Juris Doctor degree in 1973 from the University of Utah and entered law practice in Salt Lake City, Utah. In 1977 he became general legal counsel for the Fort Hall, Idaho-based Shoshone-Bannock Tribes.
A Democrat, EchoHawk entered politics in 1982 by winning a seat in the Idaho State House of Representatives from Bannock County. Four years later he was elected Bannock County prosecuting attorney. In 1990 EchoHawk was elected Attorney General of Idaho.
EchoHawk served as national co-chair in 1992 for Native Americans for Clinton-Gore and was a principal speaker at that year's Democratic National Convention.
In 1994 EchoHawk announced his candidacy to succeed fellow Democrat Cecil D. Andrus, who was retiring as Governor of Idaho. EchoHawk decisively defeated former state senator Ron Beitelspacher and an unknown candidate in the Democratic primary, fueling speculation that he could be the nation's first Native American governor. However, he was defeated in the general election by the Republican candidate, former Lieutenant Governor Phil Batt. EchoHawk has not been a candidate for public office since.
Shortly after his 1994 defeat, EchoHawk accepted a faculty position at Brigham Young University's J. Reuben Clark Law School. In that capacity he taught courses in criminal law, criminal procedure and federal Indian law. He has also published several scholarly papers.
EchoHawk is the senior partner of EchoHawk Law Offices in Pocatello, Idaho. He is admitted to the bar in Idaho, Utah and California. He is a member of the Pawnee tribe and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Echohawk joined the LDS Church at age 14 in Farmington, New Mexico. He has served as a stake president, bishop, and as member of a high council. At the time he was elected State Attorney General in Idaho he was serving as a member of the board of trustees of LDS Social Services.
Larry and his wife Terry currently live in Utah. They have 6 children and multiple grandchildren.
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Aleese, Tahlequah (6/29/2009 9:43:22 AM)
The UKB was established by the Cherokee Nation, together with it's Indian ministers, to help create jobs and economic development for the Nation's people of 1/2 blood and more. They felt this was a population that needed help at that point in time. IT WAS NOT MEANT TO CREATE A SEPARATE INDIAN TRIBE. The BIA, in its infinite wisdom (yeah, right!)wrote the documents that became the Constitution and Bylaws. There was no thought about what affect this might have on future issues involving the Cherokee people. The UKB recognized the Chief of the Cherokee Nation as their Chief and head of the tribe, regardless of having a figurehead "Chief" of the UKB. That individual was only to serve as the spokesperson for the UKB. Joint meetings were held and all decisions were made as one tribe, until there was a falling out, during Ross Swimmer's term as Chief of the Cherokee Nation. That rift was never healed and disident Cherokees, who either could not be elected or reelected to the Cherokee Tribal Council or as Chief/Deputy Chief, went over to the UKB and decided to press the issue as a separate tribe, although anyone 1/2 Cherokee or more can be a member of both entities at the same time. The Cherokee Nation and members of the UKB continue to this day to be ONE tribe. They all trace to the same roll book. It's too bad Larry Echohawk has started off his term as Assistance Secretary for Indian Affairs by making such a horrific mistake. Recently he spoke at the National Congress of American Indians, almost crying, he made the case that his brother, John Echohawk, should have been named in his place. He did not make a very good impression on this attendee.
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DT, (6/29/2009 10:11:23 AM)
Ed said
"Woops! How stupid and silly of me to make such a mistake. I hope no one thinks I was avoiding Larry Echohawk's record for comparison to that of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith."

No, we don't think that, Ed. We just think if you don't know the difference between Larry and John, you sure as heck have no credibility in understanding the implications of this memo. As you can see from Larry's record, he is a politician with a good record, not in Indian issues but white politics. Most heads of the BIA are.
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Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 10:39:50 AM)
Ok DT, so now are you going to provide the record of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith so that we can see who has credibility and the record that meets your standards? Also, I notice that you refer to yourself as "we". Is it fair to assume that you are admitting the these messages from DT, What the, and others are from Mike Miller's PR Department of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma?
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Tell it like it is, (6/29/2009 11:25:53 AM)
Preposterous
Can a footnote wipe out a nation?

By World's Editorial Writers
Published: 6/27/2009 2:21 AM
Last Modified: 6/27/2009 4:37 AM

A spokesman for the Cherokee Nation called it "preposterous," and we agree.

In a footnote to a decision about the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, the new head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs attempts to wipe out the historic legitimacy of the Cherokee Nation.

"The historical Cherokee Nation no longer exists as a distinct political entity," Larry EchoHawk wrote.

Well, the U.S. government has been trying to wipe out the Cherokees for decades, but this is one of the most creative methods bureaucratic fiat.

The right to the historic link to the ancient Cherokee nation the one federal troops uprooted from their ancestral lands in the South and forced down the Trail of Tears in the 1830s has more than just emotional importance.

A recent Supreme Court decision has determined that only tribes recognized by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 can put new lands in trust, an important step for many things, including creating new gaming or smoke shop operations.

EchoHawk's claim is that the historic Cherokee Nation started winding down in 1907 when Congress closed the roll books on tribal membership during the movement toward Oklahoma statehood.

There's no doubt that if the BIA seeks to make its version of history stick, the whole question will end up in court. There's too much at stake economically and emotionally.

Given the track records of the Cherokees and the BIA in court and given the actual historic record, we'll put our money on the tribe.
By World's Editorial Writers
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Walking Bear, (6/29/2009 1:00:14 PM)
It is about time that the BIA opened their eyes to what has been going on with the CNO for long time now. We the People of the Cherokee Nation, (not the CNO) would agree that they are not the Cherokee Nation, just the Ok band of Cherokee. There are still people alive with the Royal Blood line. And soon they will be known to all.
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Aleese, Tahlequah (6/29/2009 1:30:54 PM)
What royal blood line? Do you mean our connection to the Pocahontos and our Cherokee Princess Grandmothers?
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Ga-li-lo, (6/29/2009 2:19:12 PM)
Actually, it is about time all non-Indians opened their eyes to what has been going on since the white man set foot on our native land. The Cherokee people have and always will be one people. Those of you who want to divide and conquer will continue to try to divide the Cherokees into different bands, etc. Indian people are special, but there is no royal blood line. The truth of the matter is, the Cherokee Nation has been here for centuries and will still be here when all the bureaucrats are gone -- especially those with Cherokee Princess Grandmothers.
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Walking Bear, (6/29/2009 3:36:03 PM)
Yes I agree that so many people try to claim that they have Cherokee blood. Those are the people that think they can get some of the tribal moneys for themselves, that is the way all white men think. What I was refering to with the statement about the royal blood line is in the history books, The Imperror of The Cherokee People Moy Toy (Mog Tog)The whites and the Cherokee people tryed to assinate all of his blood line, but they didn't get them all. These are the true Cherokee People, Not the CNO
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Ga-li-lo, (6/29/2009 3:51:37 PM)
Once again.....the Cherokee people have and always will be one people, including descendants of Moy Toy, Stand Watie, George Wyckliffe, Wilma Mankiller, Joe Byrd, and Chad Smith. Cherokee is Cherokee. Give it up and stop trying to divide us!
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Walking Bear, (6/29/2009 4:01:51 PM)
That is just what I am talking about. It is time for all Cherokee People to stand together and stop all this bickering about who is and who ant Cherokee. If you have one drop of Cherokee blood, then you are Cherokee enough said.
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Blue Deer Eagle, Waynesboro (6/29/2009 7:14:44 PM)
I, Blue Deer Eagle - Appalachian Cherokee Peacemaker sent forth by Our Beloved Mother of the Spirit World as a Messenger to the Cherokee Peoples.......

do bring you this message

ONE CHEROKEE NATION

FULL-BLOOD Cherokees are the HEART and SPIRIT of the Cherokee Nation and deserve Honor and Respect....

Cherokees of the Eastern and Weastern Bands are the BODY of the Nation and deserve Honor and respect....

MIXED-BLOOD; descentants of the LOST CHEROKEE are the BACK-BONE of the Cherokee Nation and that is the WAY Our Beloved Mother, Nanye-hi and Our Ancestors wanted it and deserve Honor and Respect....

WANT-TO-BEs are the RAINBOW ADOPTED CHILDREN of the Cherokee Nation and SELU - Corn Mother's Wisdom wants it that WAY and deserve Honor and Respect....

PURIFICATION of mind, body, spirit and nature, brings UNITY; Unity gives SOVEREIGHTY and that is the WAY the Cherokee Spirits of the Directions want it and deserve Honor and Resperct.......

Together in Unity we Cherokees are the She-RAINBOW TRIBE and the She-RAINBOW WARRIORS of Mother Earth, and that is the WAY, MOTHER EARTH and the GREAT SPIRIT wants it and deserve Honor and respect.............

THAT IS OUR DESTINY AS THE PRINCIPLE PEOPLE !!!!

Blue Deer Eagle - Appalachian Cherokee Rainbow Tribe
Sagonige Awi Awahili
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What the ?, Tulsa (6/29/2009 9:16:25 PM)
What????
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DT, (6/29/2009 9:27:11 PM)
Jeez, who let the wannabes in? Ed, Chad Smith and Dianne Hammond are the Principal Chief and Attorney General of the Cherokee Nation and their record can be found in the numerous federal court decisions as well as an act of Congress recognizing that the Cherokee Nation has had a continuing government to government relationship with the USA since the USA was born. They are the ones who know that a letter from the BIA does not carry the same force of law. Something you obviously don't know. Though you might if you were a Delaware. And "we" referred to me and two friends of mine who emailed me falling down laughing at your posting JOHN Echohawk's creds along with the "stupid is as stupid does" line. You gotta admit, it was pretty funny!
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Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 11:11:27 PM)
Oh sure DT that was funny. It was about as funny as your attempt legitimize the CNO. How quick you forget. The CNO did NOT have government to government relations continuing before the USA was the USA. That belongs to the CHEROKEE NATION which you the CNO PR Department are NOT. So Chad and Dianne know better than Larry Echohawk but who else with real law credentials and real experience in real Courts will say that the head of the BIA decision does not have the rule of law. Will Chad and Dianne or even you dare to say that ALL will not honor this decision until overruled by a Federal Court? How's that for funny? The CNO will see UKB land gain trust status, smoke shops open and other great advances while the CNO spends millions of Cherokee funds fighting in Court. That's so funny I'm crying...
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Walking Bear, (6/30/2009 5:29:07 AM)
Well put Ed. The CNO does not speak for the whole of the Cherokee Nation, it only speaks for themselves. The are the Oklahoma band of Cherokee, not the Cherokee Nation. These are my words.
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Walking Bear, (6/30/2009 5:51:50 AM)
Good to see words from Blue Deer Eagle. Everyone should liston to their heart and come together a our ancesters has told us. The time of the Gathering of All Nations has come, lets make it come to past.
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DT, (6/30/2009 10:19:30 PM)
Ed, I don't need to legitimize the Cherokee Nation, the Cherokee people have done that and the US Supreme Court and the US Congress have already recognized that. In 1970, the Cherokee, Choctaw and Chickasaw won the Arkansas Riverbed case in the Supreme Court. In his concurring opinion with the majority decision, Chief Justice Douglas noted that, and I quote:

The title held by these tribes was not the usual aboriginal Indian title of use and occupancy but a fee simple, terminable if and when these Indian nations ceased to exist or abandoned the territoryCONDITIONS NOT YET OCCURRING.

The litigation over different aspects of the case continued through the adoptions of new constitutions by all three entities culminating in an Act of Congress settling and resolving all outstanding claims.

TITLE 25 > CHAPTER 19 > SUBCHAPTER XIII > § 1779
The Congress finds the following:
(3) The Cherokee Nation, a federally recognized Indian tribe with its present tribal headquarters south of Tahlequah, Oklahoma, having adopted its most recent constitution on June 26, 1976, and having entered into various treaties with the United States, including but not limited to the Treaty at Hopewell, executed on November 28, 1785 , and the Treaty at Washington, D.C., executed on July 19, 1866, has maintained a continuous government-to-government relationship with the United States since the earliest years of the Union.

Larry Echohawk may be the head of the BIA, but he does not have the authority to overule the Supreme Court or the Congress.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 11:26:51 AM)
DT your old tactic of restating the issue into a form in which it was not presented is the typical modus operandi of you CNO CON men. Mr. Larry EchoHawk has not done or said anything that diminishes the status of the CHEROKEE NATION. The fact that you want everyone to not see is that the entity you represent is NOT the Cherokee Nation. You are a corporate entity established in 1975 in an attempt to circumvent a Federal Court Order in the Groundhog case that forbid the continuing practice of the Presidential appointment of Principal Chiefs. The result was the 1970 Principal Chiefs Act and the CNO was formed to give the false impression of compliance. So when you point to events like the Arkansas Riverbed settlement you are merely saying; see they believed our lie here and here so it must be true now. That is the Adolph Hitler method and is desperate and shameful. Mr. EchoHawk has in his lawful decision correctly established the CNO as successors of interest equal to the UKB with one big exception. You the CNO are not an OIWA Tribe. So remember when you say that you are the Cherokee Nation you must provide evidence that your so-called government has the continuing link back through the ages with the Cherokee Nation and you cannot do that.
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DT, (7/1/2009 12:27:08 PM)
Ed, no wonder you can't distinguish between L-A-R-R-Y and J-O-H-N. You can't read! Mr. Echohawk attempts to deny that both the federal courts (including the Supreme Court) and the US Congress HAVE RECOGNIZED the contemporary Cherokee government as a continuation of the historic Cherokee Nation, not as a "successor in interest". Mr. Echohawk wants to pretend that he can "declare" us as a "successor in interest" in spite of the law. He can't. Just as the BIA pretended for seventy years that we had no right to a government until Harjo vs Kleppe told them different.

It always amazes me when you federal sell-outs try to pretend that the BIA knows all. It's what the Cherokee people say that counts. And the Cherokee people have exercised the collective right of self-government in the constitutions that organize the CN government, in 1976 and 2003. The US has an obligation to "recognize" our government. They don't have the right to define it.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 4:36:19 PM)
Forgive me DT if I do not allow your ploy to confuse the issue with my mistake on Larry EchoHawks name to distract me. I will go right to the heart of your pitiful attempt to bounce back from the spanking you received this morning. Until you face the fact before you that CNO has no valid claim to the rights and respect due the Cherokee Nation you cannot lawfully address the dilemma in witch you find yourselves. Your arguments about the resultant confusion producing federal documentation that indicate CNO might be the Cherokee Nation are pointless until you overcome that one devastating fact. What you and all the CNO CON men should be concerned about is how you will avoid the sever penalties that come with perpetrating FRAUD against the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
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DT, (7/1/2009 6:21:29 PM)
You didn't just confuse Larry Echhawk's name, you didn't have the slightest clue who he is! And you still don't have a clue. I'm sure you would dearly like to believe you have scored some points in this conversation, but you just keep on with some truly "stupid is as stupid does" moments. For example, you said this morning that "Mr. Larry EchoHawk has not done or said anything that diminishes the status of the CHEROKEE NATION." Uh, he declared it dead and buried, Ed. Be pretty hard to "dimish the status" much further than that.

As far as demonstrating the continuous relationship with the United States, that's why I chose the Arkansas Riverbed case (among many federal court cases) to post here because the timeline shows that even prior to the adoption of the 76 constitution, the Supreme Court had recognized the continuous existence of the Cherokee Nation which Harjo vs Kleppe reaffirmed for all 5 Tribes just six years later. The Secretary of Interior approved our constitution and the federal courts as well as Congress have stated time and time again that we are the historic Cherokee Nation. Now Larry Echohawk says "No, the Cherokee people are wrong, the courts have all been wrong and so has Congress." Pretty hard to make a case for fraud against the USA when all branches of the USA government have agreed with us all along.
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gada, (7/1/2009 6:25:17 PM)
o-siyo

let all us cherokee people both enrolled and unenrolled understand this simple truth.....all tsalagi people are your friends and brothers...the BIA and the US goverment are your enemies.........

do not be divided and fight with other tsalagi. ho it is the truth...know this always in all disputes...wado equa

gada u-stahli na- got-na-ga
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 8:26:57 PM)
Ok, Ill try to explain it to you in a simple way so you can understand. The Cherokee Nation or the true government of the Cherokee People from time immemorial does not require permission from the USA to exist or to continue to exist. The BIA and Mr. EchoHawk cannot terminate or destroy the Cherokee Nation. Now this is the part you have trouble with; the CNO is NOT the Cherokee Nation. This controversy is about whom the BIA and the Federal Government will recognize as the Cherokee Nation. EchoHawk has correctly and truthfully pronounced the status of the CNO as the successors in interest as is any entity with membership made up of descendants of the original enrollees of the Dawes rolls like the UKB. Mr. EchoHawk correctly pointed out that the government-to-government relationship was maintained since the time of the Dawes Commission with those original enrollees of which there are no more. Initially this was accomplished with an appointed Chief for the day and eventually with Milam and then Keeler as permanent appointed Chiefs. In 1975 the Cherokee Nation of OKLAHOMA was devised as a mechanism to continue the practice of the Chief for a day dominance of the Cherokee People. DT you forget that all the instances you site were during a time when there were still original enrollees that had the legal and recognized powers of citizenship established by the Dawes Act. Today, there are no more Dawes enrollees, just successors in interest in the view of federal law. So the Cherokee Nation that the BIA has been dealing with no longer exists. The Cherokee Nation not the CNO still has its right to exist and function. Anytime the Cherokee People will rise together united and assert that right it will be recognized by the United States and the World. However, the fact remains that the CNO is NOT the Cherokee Nation as it is founded on fraud. All of the acts involving the CNO representing itself as the Cherokee Nation are fraud. All who have been actively involved in the perpetration of this fraud are subject to the appropriate federal penalties.
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DT, (7/2/2009 7:20:35 AM)
Ed, I don't believe I am the one who has demonstrated an inability to read and comprehend. This is NOT about "WHOM the BIA and the Federal government will RECOGNIZE as the Cherokee Nation." Echohawk has declared that the historical Cherokee Nation "no longer exists." He bases this on the fact that Congress "closed the rolls" and there are probably no original enrollees still living. So by his reasoning, any reorganization is a "successor in interest." There is nothing you or any of your cohorts could do to "rise together" that he would recognize as "the historical Cherokee Nation" unless you have a knack for raising the dead.

What Echohawk ignores, as do you, is the fact that the feds have never had a "government to government" relationship with enrollees, original or otherwise. They have a relationship with governments created by the enrolled people. And I certainly do not "forget" that there were original enrollees actively involved in and voting for the 76 constitution which organized the modern CN government. Mr. Echohawk seems to be the one who has let that slip his mind. A "successor in interest" tribe is one that successfully manages to reorganize as much as a hundred years after the feds claimed to have wiped them out. Like the Narragansetts. When there are certainly nothing but "descendants" left. That is not the case with the Cherokee Nation. As I said, the federal courts, Congress and the administrations since the 70's have all recognized the continued existence of the Cherokee Nation and they have recognized the lawful reorganization of that government as being the one you don't like. As have the Cherokee people. So if you want to cry fraud and prosecute, you'll have to prosecute federal court judges, including Supreme Court justices, all the members of Congress and all the Presidents and their bureaucrats going back over forty years. And all the Cherokee people who have enrolled, voted, received services and otherwise participated in their own government going back over forty years. Good luck with that.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/2/2009 8:35:39 AM)
Reality Check! DT, as long as you refuse to face the fact that CNO is not the Cherokee Nation you will continue to wonder in confusion. I just hope that others that read your words are not following you over the falls. It is important to remember that the CNO is very different from any of the Five Tribes and your attempt to lump the CNO into their status is just more fraud. Because the Cherokee Nation or the CNO has not reorganized under the OIWA and the effect of the 1970 PCA has resulted in limited federal recognition to the popularly selected Principal Chief. Since the time of Keeler, the last Chief directly appointed by the president, we have seen the Feds continue to treat one person as the representative of the original enrollees of the Cherokee Dawes rolls. This is very different from the other OIWA Tribes including the UKB. Thats right, I am saying that the CNO is only the corporate structure devised and directed by the CNO CEOs. Thats Swimmer, to Mankiller, to Byrd and now Smith have been considered by the Feds to be the ONLY representative of the original enrollees for purposes of the day to day relations. Everything else is just fluff for appearances. AND in the course of all of this much fraud has been committed. Please dont be fooled by the mentality of Hitler and or the Mafioso to believe that the victims of CNO fraud might be prosecuted along with the perpetrators of fraud. Thats the old lets hang together or we will hang separately adage. Good Luck with that!
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Aleese, Tahlequah (7/2/2009 9:33:14 AM)
Ed, if you hate the Cherokee Nation so much, instead of trying to convince the world to hate us as well, why don't you relinquish your citizenship and go on over to the fabricated United Keetoowah Band? Why continue to be a part of something you hate? Back in the early days, the Indian ministers (the true leaders of the UKB organization) worked side by side with Bill Keeler, serving as representatives of the full bloods to the Cherokee Nation. The UKB recognized Bill Keeler as the Chief of the Cherokee Nation AND the United Keetoowah Band OF the Cherokee Nation. One Tribe, one Chief.
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Allen L. Lee, (7/2/2009 3:21:09 PM)
There is no such thing as a sovereign
"obligation" to recognize anyone.
If the only piece of real estate the federal government had control of on this continent was Washington D.C., they still wouldn't have an obligation to recognize the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. By the same token no Indian tribe or nation is obligated to recognize the U.S.
The U.S. can refuse to recognize any friend or foe that does not share it's mutual interests.
For those sovereigns under federal jurisdiction,
(Territories, Commonwealths, Tribes, States, Counties, Municipalities, etc) the Feds are charged with assuring that those lesser sovereigns
reasonably conform to federal laws regarding Civil and Human Rights.
As for the Congress and the courts being wrong about recognizing the CNO, two significant current events demonstrate that the federal government understands that it can absolutely be wrong over a sustained period of time. One current event is the recent apology by the Senate for slavery and segregation, the other is the Cobell case, of which the government has already admitted wrongdoing over a long period of time regarding trust lands, the dispute now is how to rectify it.
The collapse of Reconstruction and the rise of Jim
Crow laws allowed the Chickasaw to completely avoid what every other slaveholding sovereign under federal control was forced to accept, the equality of their slaves with them. Yet the U.S. still recognizes the Chickasaw Nation. Something that wasn't mentioned in that apology for slavery and segregation.

CNO as successors in interest? Yes. CNO as sole successors in interest, absolutely not.
The Cherokee Freedmen Descendants are also successors in interest by law, that should be next
on the agenda.
LARRY Echohawk got it right.
The Feds making a mistake regarding Indian rights for almost forty years? Ask Eloise Cobell. Her case is more like one hundred years plus
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Aleese, Tahlequah (7/2/2009 4:35:34 PM)
Well, Mr. Lee, it sounds as though you would support making ALL wannabe Indians separate sovereign Indian tribes, including the Inter-married whites, the descendants of Freedmen, etc. It makes no sense to continue supporting the United Keetoowah Band as a separate tribe from the Cherokee Nation.
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Allen L. Lee, (7/2/2009 5:38:00 PM)
The Feds, through the BIA, has fairly strict rules for which tribes deserve recognition. As far as I can tell, just being a group of Indians is not a qualifier for federal recognition as just being a group of Freedmen Descendants would not qualify that group to the legal rights afforded Cherokee Freedmen Descendants based on a separate legal history.
The moment the CNO decided they needed a racial qualifier for their citizens they removed themselves from being defined as the sole successor to the Cherokee Nation, for the authentic Cherokee Nation that the U.S. agreed to recognize had no such qualifiers. If the CNO and the UKB choose to continue to use racial qualifiers, then so be it, They still have an equal interest as successors of interest to the Cherokee Nation without racial qualifiers, so do the Cherokee Freedmen Descendants. A coalition government of the Cherokee Nation is probably the best solution at this point. There is a clear legal history to determine what people have a right to this coalition government. No need to fret about wannabes.
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DT, (7/2/2009 9:31:59 PM)
Reality check, Ed? You have yet to post anything related to objective reality to back up
your claims. You are welcome to start anytime if you can. Here, Ill show you (again)
how its done. You say the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation because Larry Echohawk says so. I have posted both a Supreme Court decision and an act of Congress that say otherwise and I have pointed out that the head of the BIA does not have the authority to overrule the courts and Congress. Kindly post anything, a court decision, an act of Congressanything that says otherwise. Remember, even the President does not
have the authority to overrule the Supreme Court. The last one who did that was Andrew Jackson. Since Pres Obama is a professor of constitutional law, I dont think hed be inclined to go that route.

Echohawk bases his claim that the historic Cherokee Nation no longer exists on the fact that Congress closed the rolls and therefore they INTENDED to sunset the CN. That is the same claim the BIA made back in the 70s to justify the fact that they only acknowledged the authority of the Principal Chief of the Creek Nation. You are right when you say that all 5 Tribes are different, but when they are all covered in the same law (which they were in the 1906 Five Tribes Act) any court decision regarding the interpretation of that law applies to all. In Harjo vs Kleppe, the federal appeals court found that the 1906 Act expressly continued the Creek government and that they were free to adopt a new constitution EITHER under the OIWA terms OR as an act of inherent sovereignty. Since the 1906 Act also applied to the Cherokee Nation, so did the Harjo decision. Oh and the BIA also made the same argument you have about the 1970 Principal Chiefs Act. The Harjo decision called that logically and legally without foundation. Kindly post anything that exists in reality to back up your argument. Any court decision that has overturned Harjo? Any act of Congress?

You have said that the Cherokee Nation is different because we did not reorganize under the OIWA. As I have already posted, Harjo clearly says the choice was ours to make. But lest you think that argument has not been tried in court, think again. In Wheeler vs the US and its companion case, Wheeler vs Swimmer, the 10th Circuit appeals court said that the inherent sovereignty of the Cherokee Nation is in NOT DIMINISHED by its failure to reorganize under the OIWA and We reaffirmed that the Cherokee Nation is a distinct organization capable of governing itself and that it is entitled to pursue this right without federal government intrusion. Kindly post anything in reality to back up what you say. Any court decisions that overturned either of the Wheelers? Any act of Congress?

You claim that the feds have considered ONLY the Principal Chiefs to be the representative only of the original enrollees. Really. Every single court case I have posted (as well as the findings of Congress) have referred ONLY to the Cherokee Nation, the government, the distinct organization, etc. Thats reality. Kindly post anything from reality to document your claim. You keep throwing around claims of fraud. I will await your posting of somethingANYTHING from reality to back that up. Otherwise its just another stupid is as stupid does piece of hysterical hyperbole.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/2/2009 10:45:10 PM)
Did it take you all day to come up with all that? Running in circles chasing your tale just burns up a lot of time. You could avoid all that by returning to the issue and focusing on the fatal error you are making DT. Again, You the CNO are not the Cherokee Nation. Until you manage to get your mind around that FACT all of your citing cases and legal theory mean nothing. You don't like EchoHawk's decision but that has no effect on the REALITY of it. You the CNO and ALL concerned will conform to the impact of EchoHawk's decision until such time as it is altered by Federal Court. Your great fear and the thing that motivates you to continue to post all the rambling nonsense is the prospect that the Court will confirm the EchoHawk decision.
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Allen L. Lee, (7/3/2009 4:14:21 AM)
Yes, Harjo vs Kleppe, a little something for everybody. They also discussed the "binding
effect of prior treaties except to the extent that
they are inconsistent with the agreement"
Those treaties would be "Under the terms of the Act of 1906, 34 Stat. 137,
and the Treaties of 1856 and 1866" The 1944 the Creek constitution was rejected because it the new governing document excluded the freedmen from membership in the tribe. And finally, a federal provision that voting would be changed from universal male suffrage to universal suffrage, protecting the rights of women tribal members to vote. That was in 1976. Even though Harjo vs. Kleppe discusses that the 1867 constitution would be the point of continuity, and that constitution states that all persons of African descent who were made citizens by the treaty of June, 1866, between the Creek Nation and the United states, shall hereafter be recognized as citizens of the Muskogee Nation. not more than three years later the Creek Nation removes its Freedmen Descendants.
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DT, (7/3/2009 7:32:28 AM)
Still can't find anything in "reality" to refute anything I've posted, Ed?? Yeah, I thought not.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 8:49:10 AM)
Considering that the CNO is REALLY NOT the Cherokee Nation you provide nothing with which to respond. I see the UKB officials are over at the complex measuring the drapes.
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DT, (7/3/2009 10:57:17 AM)
Yeah, I thought you'd duck the real question again. Larry Echohawk says the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation. I've posted all the court decisions that say otherwise. Still can't find a citation that says the BIA head is above the law as written by Congress and interpreted by the Courts? Yeah, I thought not.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 11:10:34 AM)
DT you're being so childish. You say that I said something I did not and then say that citations from Court cases say what they do not and then challenge me to cite where the BIA head is above the law and I have never claimed that to be the case. What I do say is the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation and you have failed to prove otherwise. Remember DT this is like proving Cherokee blood you have to have one ancestor with it. The CNO has no ancestry before 1975 but it is suspected that the illegitimate Chief of the day appointed by the president is the father of the illegitimate child CNO.
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DT, (7/3/2009 12:37:29 PM)
I'll leave it to any readers to decide whether posting actual court citations and acts of Congress or slinging insults is more childish. Still can't refute anything I've said, though, can ya, Ed?
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 1:07:14 PM)
Yes, I refute everything you said DT. The Court cases you cite are real but what you say they mean are fantasy. Anyone can cite Jack v Jill and say that this case defies gravity so now prove me wrong. That is not an adult conversation even if it is clouded with dropout legaleeeeeeeeeees.
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DT, (7/3/2009 8:37:13 PM)
If what I am misquoting the court decisions, it should be easy to prove me wrong, Ed! Just post quotes (as I did) from the decisions that say different. Be aware that I have copies of them all and can easily check your accuracy. Though I doubt you can even find them. Here's a list for you:

Harjo vs Kleppe
Wheeler vs US
Wheeler vs Swimmer

And just google Arkansas Riverbed Settlement, you'll find several cases including the Supreme Court decision in Choctaw as well as the language from The Arkansas Riverbed Settlement Act I quoted passed in Dec 2002. And no, Ed, I'm afraid it won't be an adult conversation as long as you're in it! I refute everything you say" without being able to provide proof is hardly an adult response.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 10:46:19 PM)
Ok DT you want to cite cases and then expect the world just to except what you say they conclude as if there were no opposition or other understanding of the same cases. So here I will cite some cases and show you that the CNO Courts are a farce and my conclusion only validates the statement that the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation as the Cherokee Nation is constituted, a democracy with three branches, and formed by the people for the people. The CNO has no Court and is dominated by a tyrannical dictator. The Cherokee People never participated in the formation of the CNO. The CNO sprang from the presidential appointment chief for a day without a link to the government our ancestors established. I say this because any ruling by the CNO Court would be "patently violative of express jurisdictional prohibitions" found in federal law. Blue Legs v. United States Bureau of Indian Affairs, 867 F.2d 1094, 1097-98 (8th Cir. 1989); see also, North States Power Co. v. Prairie Island Mdewalanton Sioux Indian Community, 991 F.2d 458, 462-63 (8th Cir. 1993); United States v. Yakima Tribal Court, 806 F.2d 853, 860-61 (9th Cir. 1986). In other words, since Congress expressly abolished the Cherokee tribal courts in the Curtis Act of 1898, which was expressly reaffirmed in a duly ratified agreement between the Cherokee Nation and the United States in 1901, the powers and jurisdiction of the CNO Courts are expressly limited by federal law to those which an internal administrative dispute resolution forum could assume. Curtis Act, June 28, 1898, ch. 517, 30 Stat. 495, § 28 (providing that all tribal courts in Indian Territory shall be abolished, and no officer of said courts shall thereafter have any authority whatever to do or perform any act theretofore authorized by any law in connection with said courts . . . .); 31 Stat. 848 (1901) (agreement reaffirming abolition of Cherokee tribal courts). It is true that the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and the United States Government entered into the Self-Governance Compact in 1990 pursuant to 25 U.S.C. § 450, which provided in Section 3 of Article I that the powers and decisions of the Nations Court shall be respected, to the extent that federal law, construed in accordance with the applicable canons of construction and Title III of P.L. 100-472, is not inconsistent. CNO Self-Governance Compact art. I, § 3 (1990) (emphasis added). I contend, however, that the quoted language from the Compact constitutes an ultra vires administrative recognition of the CNO tribal forums as lawful courts contrary to federal statute and actually confirms that CNO tribal courts have never been statutorily re-established following their abolition by the Curtis Act of 1898. Act, June 28, 1898, ch. 517, 30 Stat. 495, § 28. Furthermore, Article VII of the CNO 1975 Constitution appears to treat CNO dispute resolution forums, including the JAT, as an administrative tribunal, rather than a court of law, by expressly providing that the CNO Tribal Council shall generally follow Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act procedures as codified in Title 75, Oklahoma Statute, 301 et seq., as the means of insuring that any litigant receives due process of law together with prompt and speedy relief . . . . 1975 Cherokee Nation Okla. Const. art. VII; Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act, Okla. Stat. Ann. tit. 75, § 301-323 (West 2001). Strangely, Section 318 through 323 of the Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act provides procedures for judicial review of decisions of state administrative agencies. Id. at §§ 301-323.
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 10:47:39 PM)
THE REST of MY POST
Thus, if the command in Article VII of the CNO Constitution were interpreted literally, the determinations of CNO Courts are actually the determinations of a tribal administrative agency and are themselves subject to tribal judicial review by a duly constitute tribal court. Consequently, the jurisdiction of this tribal dispute resolution forum to perform functions and issue rulings as a duly constituted, federally authorized tribal court is open to serious question. Without a judicial branch you have no Nation and CNO is still just a corporation DT.
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DT, (7/4/2009 7:09:13 AM)
Ed, Creek Nation vs Hodel ruled that the Curtis Act has been repealed. And it also said that the ability to adopt a constitution (said right have been affirmed in the Harjo ruling) confers the right to a court system. The Self Governance Compact in 1990 is simply more proof that the feds recognize that right. The Compact could not have been entered into otherwise. See where it says "the Nation's courts?" The Compact is WHY there is no "serious question" that the feds recognize the Cherokee courts as "duly constituted". Duh.

As far as the language of the 75 constitution, it merely mandates that the council pass legislation to provide CHEROKEE citizens the same rights to judicial review of CHEROKEE administrative agency actions in the CHEROKEE COURTS that Oklahomans have with regard to state agencies and state courts. Boy, you really can't read, can you?
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Ed 8 R, Non (7/4/2009 10:41:10 AM)
So you say DT. DT's view of what can be drawn from Hodel or any Court case is just that; a vision produced by the DT's. Legal experts with law license not on the CNO pay role have a much different view. People like Larry EchoHawk, for example, say the Curtis Act disables the CNO Courts. Even I can read well enough to know that you are assigned and paid to try to overcome any statement that exposes the FRAUD perpetrated by Chad Smith and his CNO cronies. You may be telling yourself that good old Ed 8 R is keeping DT on the CNO tit. However, you should keep in mind what we have seen with Made-off and others. Chad will not go down without the company of those who were his accomplices. Can you read the signs DT?