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"Building a podiatric community through cooperation"
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Pods are the best down belowby Anomalous (no login)No, this isn't a new bumper sticker idea. Although I'm a DPM whose jumping ship (entering DO school in August) and I'm incredibly pissed off (still) about many things podiatry, I will still endorse a podiatrist over an orthopod ANY DAY for your foot complaints. The only area that an orthopod MIGHT challenge a well-trained pod is the ankle. And, even then, like Dr. Daniels said, there are very few orthopods who specialize in the foot and ankle. And, I'm not even sure I would call a 6 month foot and ankle fellowship intensive training. No doubt that orthos are much more skilled at surgical techniques than DPM's, but the fact is that they pretty much NEVER do hammertoes, bunions, styloid avulsions, etc. IF they do any foot and ankle procedures, it's generally limited to ankle and Achilles. Knowing something about biomechanics doesn't mean a whole lot in the real world. Sorry Jeff. I just disagree. The vast majority of DPM's just do their surgeries without any regard to future biomechanical manifestations. During my residency, I never ONCE saw a resident do any shoe modifications or orthotic prescription for any surgical patient. We were no different than the orthopods. If anyone is curious as to why I'm leaving, here goes: I will forever view podiatry as both a legitimate field of medicine and a scam. Obviously, podiatrists serve a very necessary niche in the world of medicine. I think that isn't in question. What is in question, however, is the process to become a DPM. I've told this story before on this forum, but think I'll mention it again. I graduated from UCLA in the 80's with a very good GPA. I got a 26S on my MCAT (astronomical for pod school). I went to CCPM and finished with a 3.55 and was well-liked and well-known amongst my classmates and instructors. I did every conceivable volunteer duty as a student and NEVER missed a clinic or any other outside requirement. After my 1st year of pod school, I earned approximately a 3.9 GPA. I applied to dozens and dozens of programs and went to every freaking CRIP's. I spent money that I didn't have and went through a ton of bulls@#t interviews with a lot of pompous jerks. Most of these "interviews" consisted of obscure pimping sessions that, frankly, made me somewhat embarassed to be a part of this profession. Didn't we already "prove" ourselves after 4 years? What an unecessary nightmare that was! I ended up at L.A. County for my 4th year (now defunct) and cut about 27 billion pounds of nails. Oh, I guess I also did about 5 ingrowns and two bunions. Then came the match.... Herein lies most of my anger. To make a long bitch session shorter, suffice to say that I was LUCKY to match with a PPMR (County). The president of our class matched with NOTHING. Ultimately, he had to take an UNFUNDED position in Arizona! Nice. He had to move his family over there to make nothing as a resident. My PPMR did almost nothing to prepare me for the real world. Again, I cut billions of nails and only assisted on 5 foot surgeries. The only highlight was that I got to pretend that I was a real doctor for 5 months as I rotated through the hospital. Let me tell you, it wasn't easy. Since I NEVER got to see the inside of a hospital during my pathetic clinical years as a pod student, I had pretty much no idea what the hell was going on. Wonderful. So, let's sum it up. I'm 175k in debt and I can cut nails, calluses and do PNA's. Why should I complain? I really should just buck up and realize that I just never approached the "elite" of pod student. Those angelic few who actually got some surgical training during their residency. If only to be a part of that vaunted group of individuals... But, being the hard working guy that I am and, more importantly, totally unable to live with the idea that I might die a podiatrist, I got my butt in gear and started studying for the MCAT (again). I took it last year and applied to only one DO school (because I'm a homeowner and my wife has a good job in the area). I guess the initials "DPM" must have helped a little bit. They MUST have known that I had at least seen the inside of an OR. Or, maybe not. Second, I think that podiatry is a dying field. Reimbursements are getting less and less (proportionally to other medical fields), the future group of graduating students will only further hurt the reputation of pods (since there hasn't been any competition to enter pod schools since probably 1998 or so), podiatric procedures are continuing to be limited or eliminated altogether, podiatrists are often seen as "quasi" doctors and it's much, much more difficult to make a good living compared with other DO's and MD's. Also, it's next to impossible to find any kind of job as a DPM. New podiatrists, plain and simple, cannot make enough money to keep afloat. from IP address 63.206.142.165 |
dpm studentby Anonymous (no login)thanks for the insight. from IP address 192.189.247.110 |
Re: Pods are the best down belowby Anonymous (no login)You said it all. I was a podiatrist and now I work for a pharmaceutical company out in CA. Good luck and when you graduate write alot of drugs. I need to put my daughter through college from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
Pharm repby Anomalous (no login)I used to rep "scientific supplies" before I officially became pre-med (Curtin Matheson in Anaheim Hills, CA). Reading this forum now doesn't make me sweat in a panic like it used to. Now that I've become seriously pro-active about my future, I'm breathing much, much better. It is really pathetic, however, just how negative and foreboding this site is. Worse yet, it's always been like this. If I could boil down the main reason for the angst...I'd say that it's because many students thought they were going to medical school to become doctors. When they finished, they discovered that they are caught somewhere between a practitioner and a doctor and are treated and compensated thusly. It has to do with lack of opportunities, anxiety over huge student loans (which, in no way, reflect the earning power you will have) and ego. Jeff Davids and I should start our own class-action lawsuit against our school and the system that left us out in the cold. from IP address 63.206.142.165 |
Class Action Suits...by Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM (no login)"Jeff Davids and I should start our own class-action lawsuit against our school and the system that left us out in the cold." Marc, I doubt it would do any good...but if you come up with something (being that your wife is a lawyer), let me know. Be sure to also include CASPR, the merit-less residency scam. Good luck in DO school...remember, if you don't know the answer, try "splanchnic nerve." It always obfuscates and confuses enough so that they leave you alone. Jeff from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
Medicare cutting out Podiatry?by Richard Willner DPM (no login)Is Medicare cuting out podiatry? The facts include that one medicare intermediatry has cut out onychomycosis after 6 months of treatment. Is that the begging of the end of this very long medicare involvement with podiatry? No. But i see it as the fine tuning ofthe fees so that mediare can save billions of dollars. Good Luck to the new Graduates. We wish them all of the success inthe world. Rich Willner DPM from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
Noby Anonymous (no login)No, they are just eliminating care that has been overutilized and shouldn't have been paid for in the first place. Footcare/ Nail debridemnets should be a cash noncovered service except for severe PVD and diabetes. The newest grads do not need to worry since they are more medical versus chiropody based. from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
SEEKING PODIATRIST FOR LARGE $$ OPPURTUNITYby (no login)I am seeking poditrist willing to travel throughout the state you are residing in for a great money making oppurtunity. Please contact me at 1-(800) 442-3542 for details. Danny Yanesh Certified Medical from IP address 66.0.225.168 |
I left and I'm happyby Anonymous (no login)I left the field about 6 years ago and I couldn't be happier. Granted I wasted 10 years as a practicing podiatrist, but I have a good job now with a large pharmaceutical company. If you can do well in podiatry, congratulations. If not, stop complaining about your situation and make a change. It's terrible for grown people to just complain about there chosen profession without doing something about it from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
Absolutelyby Anomalous (no login)I can't say that I actually "wasted" my 4 years of practice + 4 years of pod school +....well, I WILL say that I wasted one year in my utterly pointless PPMR. Realistically, at my age, I would have never been accepted to DO school had I not taken these courses and at least had SOME exposure in a medical setting. I'm starting DO school on August 11th. The moment my 1st instructor speaks his/her first words in my first MEDICAL SCHOOL class, I am going to literally feel the million ton albatross taking flight from my shoulders. Even though I'm 175k in debt and am super bitter about the system (education, post-graduate training), I'm choosing to look at these last 10 years as an interesting diversion. Sometimes I see it as an incredibly expensive pre-med course. One word of advice. If you aren't absolutely sure that you want to be a podiatrist for the rest of your life, get out now. If you are sure, good luck. There will be a whole lot less pods to compete with in the future. from IP address 63.206.142.165 |
I couldn't agree more...by Anonymous (no login)I left in my third year and owe 100K. so yes it was an expensive premed course. but hey at least it has helped me to get a 4.0 in Med School. from IP address 207.42.135.28 |
medical schoolby Anonymous (no login)This spring break met a guy that seemed arrogant when I heard him bragging about being in medical school to some girls at the hotel pool. I approached him and told him I too was in medical school and asked where he attended. He replied and it was some school I had never heard of and I probed a little more and then he stated he was in podiatry school. I don't want to offend anyone, but I was wondering if all podiatry students call themselves medical students or if it was just this individual. Medical students become medical doctors, podiatry students become podiatrist. Again, no offense to anyone I just never heard a podiatrist call themselves a medical doctor. Please inform me about the situation. from IP address 192.189.247.151 |
Re: medical schoolby cg (no login)Who cares from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Medical studentby anonymous (no login)A better response would be a podiatric medical student. When I was in school that is what I would say. I am proud of my profession, sometimes though people will say medical student to avoid the 20 minute Q&A that typically follows the podiatric adjective. He is a medical student in a Podiatry School. I list my profession as an ankle and foot surgeon since that is what I am but use DPM on Rxs, letterhead etc. Hope that is politocally correct...... Best of luck! One other question should a DO student say osteopathic medical student or just medical student? An should they say they are an osteopath or the specialty they do? How about the maxillofacial surgeon, are they a dentist when asked? As long as the podiatric medical student was not trying to Pap smears or examine someones throat who cares???? from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
Re: Medical studentby cg (no login)In hospitals we do examine throats, listen to hearts ect. just like any other med student. As long as you dont represent yourself as something your not or practice beyond your scope of training when you get into practice, I see no problem with calling Pod students Podiatric medical students... thats what it say on my student id and thats what the ER doc I am rotating under right now calls me. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Not Againby md student (no login)Look, we all study one form of medicine or another okay? It doesn't matter what you call yourself. If this is a big deal for you, then you have problems. All the great doctors I know doesn't really care if you call them Dr....or just their first name. If you are good, then you are good. I have also met chiropracters that have such a huge chip on their shoulder that they DEMAND to be called "doctor". And I'm not even disrespecting their profession...but I do disrespect that kind of attitude no what what kind of doctor they are. md student from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
Re: medical schoolby DO MS IV (no login)Who cares? Being a medical student doesn't make one anymore special than being a podiatry student or vice versa. Get over it. from IP address 129.120.99.128 |
Re: Re: medical schoolby Anonymous (no login)Words of wisdom coming from a DO. Don't get so upset because you can't put MD beside you name. from IP address 192.189.247.151 |
Re: medical schoolby 3rd_yr_DO_student (no login)I don't see anything wrong with a podiatry student calling himself a medical student. He does attend podiatric MEDICAL school and will become a D.P.M., a DOCTOR specializing in foot diseases and disorders. It's not like he's a D.P.M. claiming to be an M.D. or vice versa, then it would be wrong. By the way you guys should lighten up in here, never knew podiatrists feel so negatively about their profession. In almost osteopathic forum i participate, the messages are positive and empowering, very different than here. from IP address 172.197.244.198 |
More Trivial Nonsenseby 3rd year out (no login)My patients, nurses on the floor and OR call me doctor. Some patients call me Bob, the plaintiff attorney calls me an easy mark, LOL. My dad calls me punk kid, with affection of course. My wife calls me..., never mind. LOL. I think it was said best by those before me. WHO CARES? my 2 cents. from IP address 209.26.251.207 |
mutual respectby Stu Pod (no login)The MD and DO student responses to this post are typical of what I encountered during my 4 yrs. of school......mutual respect. We certainly respect the work they do, and they respect what we do for patients. from IP address 12.83.150.32 |
podiatrists are doctors period!by footdoc (no login)Let us explore the curriculum that podiatry students have to go through in order to successfully become a well-trained "medical" specialist of the foot and ankle. The first two years consist of the basic sciences (taught by Phd's in their respective fields; most of them in fact are from nearby well-known medical schools...) These classes are taught with the same rigorous goals and expectations as that for any medical student in a M.D. school. The last two remaining years consist of clinical sciences and rotations in different areas of medicine (medicine, pathology, surgery, radiology, emergency medicine...shall I go on???) The only differences that I can see are the following: podiatry students, in the area of sugery, tend to focus more on the lower extremity...but hello??? After all, we are "pod"iatrists! Podiatry students also do not go through OBGYN or psychiatry...wow, what a loss! <sarcasm> And of course the Boards Part I, II, which are different from the USMLE. I fully believe that with the same type of schooling podiatry students go through, they should be able to take the USMLE along with the M.D. students, and even perform better than some of the M.D. students. Now let's move on to residency: Most residency programs are 2-3 yrs long, which will soon be changed to a mandatory time period of 3 yrs. Residents would go through the same areas of medicine again. However the only difference is that podiatry residents would concentrate more on surgery of the lower extremity. There are a ton of procedures which can be performed to the foot and ankle. But before even thinking about performing a procedure on a patient, such as a diabetic or an SLE patient who has been on steroids, the podiatrist must possess the medical knowledge to understand these medical conditions. And rightfully so, we as podiatrists have gone through the schooling and training to be able to do such a task. So now you have to ask yourself after reading the above, are podiatrists considered doctors? Let me see here - we treat and do surgery on patients, some of whom can be quite ill at times. We go through four years of schooling, which are very similar to that of the M.D. curriculum, and of course residency. Hmmm...I think I have rest my case. from IP address 156.3.33.13 |
Re: podiatrists are doctors period!by Anonymous (no login)Hmmm...I think I have rest my case. The grammar is great no wonder you are in podiatry school. from IP address 192.189.247.32 |
Re: Re: podiatrists are doctors period!by cg (no login)You might want to reread your post as well. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
USMLEby Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM (no login)"I fully believe that with the same type of schooling podiatry students go through, they should be able to take the USMLE along with the M.D. students, and even perform better than some of the M.D. students." Sorry to tell you, but a group of "top" DPM students DID take the USMLE back in the mid-90's, and they all failed. I think most of them scored in the 60's, overall. I don't have all of the details, but I remember hearing that it was a "test program" to see how DPM training compared to MD training. I completely agree that we take the same courses, with few exceptions (aside from what you mentioned, we also miss out on a few labs that MD students take (ie: pathology). I'm not really sure what caused the USMLE failures, but it may have been that it was taken at the end of the 2nd year, before all of the coursework had been completed (DPM students, as you know, take coursework in the 3rd and, sometimes, 4th years). Additionally, I don't know if it was done with representatives from all of the schools, or just one, which may have made a difference. If podiatry schools can further condense their training into two years, then it should be attempted again. Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
Re: USMLEby Cg (no login)Top DPM students did not take a official USMLE exam in the 90s that is a urban legend. The USMLE is a test that your curriculum must be geared towards(we dont take real psych or OB and our path is not a comprehensive). Remember Podiatrys courses are similar to MD and DO courses, but they are not geared to taking the USMLE. If the curriculum was geared toward the USMLE I am sure Pod student could pass. from IP address 141.150.96.155 |
usmleby cma (no login)psych and OB would be covered on USMLE 2 and 3. USMLE 1 covers basic sciences and is taken at the end of the 2nd year. This test is not easy. It would be an unusual pod student who could pass it. Med students and dental students take anatomy together at IU. The best scores from med students on a practical will be low 90's, dental low 60's. There is a curve. Why the difference? The med student has studied his f---ing balls off. Same with the USMLE. from IP address 63.185.32.42 |
USMLEby J. Anderson (no login)I thought DPM students took the USMLE at the one of the midwestern podiatry schools and they did quite poorly. The path course we all took was comphrehensive; the exact same course as the Hahneman students everything in excruciating detail- which was excellent! Also ob/gyn and psych are covered on parts II and III therefore a podiatry student should be able to pass the exam part I IF they study hard and actually learn basic sciences as they relate to cases not memorizing disjointed "facts". Why not it we are equals first and second years--let's take this exam. from IP address 170.223.175.29 |
Re: USMLEby Anonymous (no login)Ok, you guys win. Pod students arent smart enough to pass the USMLE. Thats what you want to hear so there it is. You guys are pathetic. Only person I can speak for is me and I know that if I wanted to pass the USMLE and had the proper study marterial, I would pass. from IP address 141.150.96.155 |
I did not say thatby Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM (no login)I didn't say that pods *can't* pass the USMLE. I said that, from what I heard, pod students in the mid-90's did NOT pass the USMLE. You say that you could pass if you wanted to. I believe you. I, too, think I could have passed it when I was a student (not anymore, as I no longer know the difference between an IgM and a brainstem - but you use or you lose it, I guess). I think that the profession should try again, and the students who will take it should be notified well before the test so that they can begin studying early. If we can prove ourselves on the USMLE, the MD community will have to take notice. Jeff from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
noby cma (no login)it's not a matter of intelligience. It's a matter of preparation. What I'm saying is I took path in pod and med school and in pod school I read the notes and took the tests and had a 90% average. In med school I attended the classes and took notes AND I read Robbins cover to cover 3 times some chapters I read 5 times. Some pages of the book take 45 minutes to read intensively. So I feel like I studied so much more and learned so much more and I got a 94% in the class. I'm not any smarter than you, but I think pod students don't consider a lot of what they study relevant so the intensity is not the same. I remember one late night discussing salivary gland pathology with my roommate at 2:00 am, we had both just finished reading a section of the path book and were quizzing each other, but we weren't cramming for a test or anything, we were just excited about pathology. from IP address 63.185.32.4 |
USMLEby Oral Surgeon (no login)I took Step 1 at the end of my fourth year of dental school. I studied for two weeks (hard). I passed with an above average score, but within the aveage standard deviation. I think many students (pods included) can pass if the study hard enough. I just wanted to pass the USMLE, which consequently was 178 at the time. Funny thing is that 3 students at my med school didn't pass. from IP address 205.185.128.230 |
33% LESS Medicare money for DPM!!!by Told U. So, DPM (no login)Believe it (see below)...it's the 'law-of-the-land' for Trailblaser states (Texas, Maryland, Virginia, Delaware and the District of Columbia). The 90 day screen applies to CPT 11720 and CPT 11721 codes, whether done for "pain", "limitation of ambulation", "secondary infection", or with the "Q7", "Q8" or "Q9" modifiers. The other part of this local medical review policy (LMRP) for Trailblazer is that there is now a statement regarding the definitive treatment of the onychomycosis with an antifungal pharmacologic agent. The LMRP can be found at www. trailblazerhealth.com - Original Message - I attended a meeting several weeks ago in which a speaker (a podiatrist) stated that Trailblazer Medicare was going to increase the set time interval between mycotic nail debridements from 60 days to 90 days. The speaker warned that this could eventually be reviewed by other carriers, and could potentially become a nationwide policy. Our Medicare carrier is NHIC (New England), and haven't seen in print, or heard of ,similar changes. Has anyone else heard of this? Brunswick, ME
from IP address 67.249.33.14 |
Re: 33% LESS Medicare money for DPM!!!by Anonymous (no login)Alright, so what does all of this actually mean for podiatry in the long run? from IP address 192.189.247.151 |
Less Medicare = Less Moneyby Anonymous (no login)How does the limitation of 6 months of onychomycosis mean to your check book? The basis of podiatry is the toe nail paid by medicare. Who expects it to go down? Who expects medicare limiting the treatment of the most common ailment in Podiatry? It looks like medicare is cutting back and back and back. Expect a smaller medicare check. That means LESS patients, LESS money in your checkbook. Can ANYBODY, even Stu Pod have another view? Come on, Stu Pod, what is your opinion on Medicare dramaticly decreasing their reimbursement to podiatrists? MORE surgery? from IP address 67.249.67.63 |
questionby Anonymous (no login)I was just wondering if the medicare cutbacks are across the board MD/DO or just podiatry? from IP address 192.189.247.151 |
not a foot docby (no login)I have been following this forum for at least a year, I have never come across anything like it, I'm hooked. I'm also sad you've taught me a great deal. You taught me that many dpm's don't respect themselves or their profession, many of you have shown me that your education is substandard. I've also learned that Podiatry is not an exclusive profession such as Dentistry. I guess I've learned my lesson, go to an Ortho if you have a foot problem. I will never look at a Podiatrist the same again. from IP address 216.76.209.67 |
really sadby A.A.D. (no login)Whats really sad is if you are using only this forum as a basis for your conclusions. There are some podiatrists out there with substandard training just like they are some orthos out there with even worse training. Its like that in every profession. A.A.D. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
Sorry Markby Anonymous (no login)Mark, I too a very happy,successful, and well trained DPM would be concerned if I read this site as a lay person. This site is controlled by a handful of failures of the profession. Their goal is to poison the well to somehow get even. Many no longer practice and would probably be unsuccessful even if they had gone to Harvard Medical School. As for your comment about going to an orthopedist that's your choice and perogative. There are some very good Orthopedic foot surgeons but there are also some very bad. Podiatric ankle and foot surgeons also come in all skill levels. My advice is to research any doctor you see since degree means nothing. A large percentage of my complicated reconstructive surgeries are referred by orthopedists and I have helped train orthopedists here and abroad. 3 of my residents who have graduated in the last 2 years have joined orthopedic practices to do all of their foot and ankle surgery. To the Doom and Gloomers, I have said this a million times when you post on a forum open to the public you create more problems. You mislead the public, instigate lawsuits, and give our competitors information to use against us. Other professions choose to solve/ complain in private. Those of us who care in podiatry do the same. Your behavior and unprofessional approach may explain some of the reasons for failure. My opinion from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
Totally disagreeby Anonymous (no login)I don't believe your statement that you need to research any health care provider because "degree means nothing." Certainly researching any provider is a wise move... but evaluating the degree cannot be discounted. By the time a foot/ankle fellowship-trained orthopaedic surgeon goes into practice he or she has been at the top rung of achievement multiple times over for many years. In order to get a competitive fellowship one needs to have performed well during their orthopaedic surgery residency. In order to get into orthopaedic surgery one needs to graduate at the top of his or her class from medical school (usually a top-rated med school). To get into this excellent medical school one needs to perform extremely well in college (often at a top-rated college). To get into these colleges one needs to perform extremely well in high school. Therefore by the time it's time to begin practice they have been been designated as the cream of a very competitive crop over and over again since their teenage years. Based on what I read in this forum, podiatrists can basically waltz into podiatry school with very little difficulty as these schools are looking to fill spots by any means necessary. Are these students therefore going to be the finest performers out there, or did those students go a different route for a reason? Am I wrong about the lack of standards to get into podiatry school? If so, please educate me. How difficult is it to get into a surgical residency after podiatry school? I think a steady history of being at the top of the heap means something. Don't discount the degree. from IP address 192.68.30.90 |
Yes and no...by (no login)I will concede the fact that orthopods must do very well in med school to get their residency programs. I will also concede that just about anybody can get into pod school (and don't try to deny it - I was on the admissions committee, and I know it to be true). What you need to know, though, is that many orthopods have little training in foot and ankle surgery. They may do a 6 month to year long fellowship, but they still have no idea of the biomechanics of the foot and ankle. I have seen some horrifically botched up foot jobs done by orthopods. Just because you learn how to cut on bones doesn't mean you should cut on every bone in the body. True, there can be some awful jobs done by podiatrists, too. That is why it is important to check out your doc before getting any surgery. As for me, I'm probably considered one of the "gloomers" since I don't practice, but I would certainly choose a podiatrist over an orthopod to do foot work (which I, by the way, desperately need, having painful hallux limitus bilaterally). I think that most (not all) DPM's who do at least 2 years of surgical residency are probably more competant than your average "foot and ankle" orthopod, and definitely more competant than an orthopod who did not do a foot fellowship. And if I would choose a DPM (being a doomer and gloomer), you know this post means something! Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
biomechanicsby student (no login)Are you trying to say that MOST podiatrist know their biomechanics and this is what separate us from orthopods? PLEASE! I respect both dpms and orthopods the same. Just don't tell me that we are better because we know biomechanics. Most dpms, especially surgeons don't! (I didn't say all dpms!). I mean, they all pretend to and that is their cry for why they are better at the foot and ankle for so long...but I guarantee if you take a bunch of DPM surgeons into a room and talk biomechanics with them, you would be really disappointed. Oh, they'll know all the buzzwords like "thou shalt not varus" and stuff like that but so do the orthopods. YES, I know that we all took it in school and all of us own Dr.Root's book. Also, what's the difference between a psr-12 surgeon and an orthopod that did a 1 yr fellowship after 5 yrs of his or her orthopedic residency? The dpm's 1st yr was a rotating intership right? I mean, all the surgeries was probably left to the senior residents to get their #'s, right? Respectfully, Student from IP address 204.185.73.119 |
Mechanicsby Jeffrey C. Davids (no login)I didn't say that DPM's knew their biomechanics. Most probably know more about car mechanics than biomechanics. But they know more than any orthopod. Period. Orthopods are trained to cut bones. They are not trained to cut (most) bones at specific angles. Ever see an orthopod do a TMA? The last one I saw left all the bones different lengths, and did not cut dorsal distal to plantar proximal. They left jagged edges, and the guy dehisced several times. It was just a bunch of bones to the orthopod. And have you ever seen a bunionectomy thru a completely medial incision without a lateral release? My point is that DPM's are better trained in the overall mechanics of the foot (since they live it), and are better trained in the proper surgical techniques. Whether or not the DPM does a good job is more a result of his or her own skills, and not that they were taught poorly. Jeff from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
okby student (no login)I can see your point now. I agree. I still disagree with you that a dpm surgeon know more biomech. Well, maybe...but it's like comparing who know more biomech, a 1st grade or a kindergarten. IT's SAD. from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
Well then let any MD cut on you and good luckby Anonymous (no login)I stated that there are some very good foot and ankle surgeons that happen to be orthopedists but like it or not there are some very bad (even some who did foot fellowships). I also admitted that there are both good and bad podiatric foot and ankle surgeons. That's the difference, I can admit my profession has some who should not be performing foot surgery but your ego can not say the same about MDs. Now I have lectured on several occasions with some of the top names in foot and ankle surgery from both the orthopedic and podiatric communities. The good docs have much in common and they help foot and ankle surgery advance to benefit patients. Some orthopedic foot fellows (and from what I have seen sports medicine fellows) have been steered to these fellowship because they lack the skill to work on other anatomical areas. ( Better to cut the dosalis pedis vs the femoral artery). So put the MD ego away and realize being a good doctor isn't about degree as much as it is the individual. To all heed this warning: investigate your doctor ask the tough questions and worry about skill/experience vs degree. DOs, MDs, and DPMs all have great surgeons. Who you pick will depnd upon who is in your area. from IP address 152.163.189.129 |
what?by student (no login)What are you talking about? I am a DPM student. Read my post again. from IP address 204.185.73.61 |
RE:What?by Anonymous (no login)Reread my posts and you will see what I am talking about. Bottomline if your attitude is Orthopedists are all good and always better than DPMs then you will have some interesting wake up calls. Degree means only that you met the requirements for graduation. There are excellent Foot and Ankle surgeons of all degrees MD, DO, and DPM. Conversely there are some hacks in all of those professions as well. You had better research the individual. Plus if you are truly a student, my recommendation is to get out since you are not happy and will probably not do well with the attitude you have. My opinion from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
you should not assume!by student (no login)First of all, I said I respect DPMs and other doctors the same. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about who was better than who. Second, why would you assume that I hate what I was doing??? I love what I do. All I said was that to say we are better than they because we know biomechanics is hogwash. Most of DPM surgeons don't! And again, I didn't say ALL. I think a DPM that does mostly primary care and orthotics would know more about it than a DPM that does surgeries most of his days. You sound like you have a HUGE chip on your shoulder from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
That's a new oneby Anonymous (no login)You seamlessly went from what seemed to be a reasonable post (albeit one with which I disagree) to completely losing all credibility. Orthopaedic surgeons who are steered into foot/ankle and sports medicine fellowships because they can't be trusted with operating in closer proximity to more vital structures? That's pretty laughable. Never heard that one. What do you make of the podiatry situation in which there are apparently ZERO standards to get into podiatry school (confirmed multiple times in this forum)? You trust these low-achievers to become talented surgeons? Good luck. I'll bow out at this point. To continue seems pointless after such a misinformed response. from IP address 65.70.42.25 |
Bow out if you likeby Anonymous (no login)MDs are oftened steered to other sepcialties. And when you do practice and see what damage a bad surgeon of any degree can do you may need to rethink your position. I know that there are orthopods who have taken fellowships for just the reason I gave. Not all but some. Another riddle for you. General orthopdists routinely ask for full privileges be it foot, spine, pediatric, hand, joint replacements etc. Now is it that the fellowship people are truly better trained? If so why are general orthopods permitted to have the same privileges? Or is the fellowship required remedial training needed by some who need to specialize? I never could work that one out. Certainly there are orthopedists who can do it all and there are fellowship trained ones who only improve already good skills but if you truly believe these top performing MDs are always the best you show how naive you are and will be dissappointed My experienced opinion. from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
Re: Bow out if you likeby Anonymous (no login)OK... I'll bite. If you'll go back to my posts could you please refer me to the part where I say "all MD's are always the best"? You seem to be hung up on my making that assertion. The assertion is not there. You can stop attempting to find holes in that particular argument because it's not one that I made. from IP address 192.68.30.44 |
I totally agree- he lost itby student (no login)" Orthopaedic surgeons who are steered into foot/ankle and sports medicine fellowships because they can't be trusted with operating in closer proximity to more vital structures?" NO KIDDING! Besides, does he really think that the foot and ankle are not vital structures???? PLEASE!! from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
Wait and see for yourselfby Anonymous (no login)I know it sounds crazy. But all I can say is wait and see for yourself. I think the foot and ankle are very important structures but as we know others for years did/do not. I know a few MDs who were "convinced" that they would make a great family doc or psychiatrist once they were handed the knife during their surgical residencies. That's a good thing since the system worked. Not everyone who gets a surgical program has the tools to be a surgeon. These people have to make a living. In some cases either the program or the resident figure that out and they pick another specialty. When most surgical programs began with 2 years in general surgery this could be determined and the appropriate changes could be made before they entered ortho or other specialties. Now with orthopedic residents beginning and ending in their specialty sometimes skills or the lack of do not show up until year 3 or 4. Now what? Unfortunately the pecking order of the foot is below the back, hand, or other larger structures. Some (not all there are some great foot orthopods) have been pushed to the foot. Now we have the same problem without the benefit of podiatric psychiatry. When we accept a student into say a PSR-24 and it becomes apparent that they do not have the "tools" we are in a bind. If we let them go no state license, if we keep them sub standard surgeon. Thank God for wound care!!!!! Sounds nuts but it's true and of course my opinion from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
you have a valid pointby student (no login)Now that you put it that way, you might be right. In the mean time, I respectfully disagree. I will see soon enough. One other thing, in the DO, MD world if you found out you don't like or won't be good in surgery, you have so many other options. In podiatry, if you found out you can't be good in sx, what do you do? Cut toenails and make orthotics all your life? That's kind of cruel. from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
Re: Wait and see for yourselfby Anonymous (no login)Please provide some evidence in support of your assertion that some orthopedic residents have been steered towards foot/ankle surgery as other areas of the body have been declared too risky in their hands. What is the orthopaedic pecking order of body parts? Where is this information coming from? It's idiotic. from IP address 65.70.42.25 |
Yea rightby Anonymous (no login)Like that will be published somewhere. It would be entitled scary orthopods. My only proof is working with orthopedists who have relayed this to me. Plus my "tools" arguement is common sense. Everyone knows that the skill level varies from doctor to doctor regardless of the degree. You can't even get an orthopod to admit that some in their professiion shouldn't do any surgery let alone foot surgery in public. Now in private that's a different story. Please answer the question I posed earlier: If fellowship trained orthopods receive extra training in their sub specialty why are the general orthopods granted full privileges. And if this extra training is not necessary then why is it available? Is it remedial? My opinions from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
Re: Yea rightby Anonymous (no login)Like ANY medical profession there are pathways available to become more and more subspecialized. The orthopaedic foot/ankle fellowship is available in order to allow one to become a foot/ankle specialist and become comfortable with the entire array of foot/ankle surgery. A general orthopaedic residency gives one a strong basis (certainly varies with from program to program) in foot/ankle. A fellowship takes it to the next level. You ask why a fellowship available if a general orthopaedist has priveleges to do the same cases as a fellowship-trained one? Most general orthopaedists will do basic foot/ankle work but will not tackle the more difficult foot/ankle problems. They may do bunions, simple ankle fusions, etc. but the majority of them will refer out the total ankles, tibiotalocalcaneal fusions, distal tibial osteotomies, etc. Most surgeons completing a foot/ankle fellowship are planning to join a practice to serve as the foot/ankle expert who is willing to take on any of these cases. I don't know why all orthopaedists have priveleges to do any foot/ankle case they want. You'd have to ask the hospitals that give them these priveleges. I do know, though, if a general orthopaedist was doing total ankles and was doing them in a substandard manner they'd catch a ton of flack from the local foot/ankle orthopaedists. There are certain cases which are routinely thought of specialty cases and that's why the fellowship exists. from IP address 65.70.42.25 |
Nice tryby Anonymous (no login)In my area the general orthopods treat everything( not insinuating that is necessarily bad it depends on the orthopod). Their treatment isn't always surgery either. Many feel that foot fellowship colleagues are unnecessary and unless they have on in their group will treat it themselves or God forbid send it to me or another DPM. In addition many of our foot orthopods do more general ortho work than feet even thought they are supposedly getting all of these referrals you tout. One other point I wish more would refer the bunions you mentioned since this is where a lot of the poor decisions are made versus complex reconstructions. My opinion from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
Re: Sorry Markby Anonymous (no login)Whatever blaa blaa blaa you sound like the dean at my school when I interviewed. No matter what you say, you cannot make podiatry the fairy tale you wish it was. from IP address 192.189.247.154 |
Not the Deanby Anonymous (no login)Not the Dean just your worst nightmare: A happy well trained, successful DPM. from IP address 152.163.189.129 |
Worst nightmareby Anonymous (no login)My worst nightmare for sure was going into podiatry. You can try to convince yourself that podiatry is great and that is what you want out of life, but everyone knows that we get no respect from the community or health care professionals in general. from IP address 192.189.247.91 |
Speak for yourselfby Anonymous (no login)Just because you're not respected, unhappy or any adjective you wish to add don't assume that fits the rest of us. Referrals to me from orthopedists and other MD/DOs and performing surgery on many of the OR and nursing staff is enough respect for me. Just because something happens to you do not be so arrogant to assume we all are like you. from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
Re: Worst nightmareby JeffB (no login)I agree 100% from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
O.K.by Anonymous (no login)Well then you are probably one of those dpm's that send in their survey saying they bring home 300k a year right. I can't believe the things I hear students saying about the podiatrist they rotated with or shadowed and they are bringing home 200-300k and the funny thing I know the podiatrist on a personal level and not one of them break 70 which is good for a any podiatris these days. So if you're the big ticket winner I am sure I heard your "stories"at a few conventions already. from IP address 192.189.247.91 |
Patten University classesby sam (no login)I have great interest in getting into Podiatry school. There is a university out here called Patten Univ. They have a science transfer program that they offer for 15 hours on the weekend for 4 weeks each class. I am asking anyone out there that as any experience in this matter. Has anyone heard of Patten Univer. and its transfer credibility? I am currently trying to resolve this with SMC podiatric school as well as the Ohio Podiatry school. I am open to any helpful tips. regards Sam from IP address 67.113.148.232 |
Re: Patten University classesby Anonymous (no login)Don't go into podiatry. Study hard in undergrad and for the MCAT then go to medical school. That's the best advice I can give you. from IP address 192.189.247.91 |
Re: Patten University classesby C (no login)If podiatry is what you want to do for a living go to podiatry school. If you want to do another job then do it. I wouldnt listen to the posters on this board. Most of them are failed podiatry school dropouts who pretend to be docs. Visit a podiatrist and see for yourself. Thats the best advice I can give you. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Speak for Yourselfby J. Anderson (no login)Please speak for yourself. If podiatry offers such profound opportunity why are there such a shortage of DPM applicants? Why are people rioting in the streets for podiatry care in foreign countries without DPMs. from IP address 134.174.18.54 |
my point exactlyby Anonymous (no login)"if podiatry offers such profound opportunity why are there such a shortage of applicants" read this and tell me what you are trying to say. According to this statement it sums up my point. Podiatry does NOT offer profound opportunities of any sort. That is why most podiatrist are struggling. As for the shortage of applicants, that speaks for itself no one wants to go into podiatry for obvious reasons. The foreign country comment, that makes me laugh. Let me know when another one of those "riots" break out due to a shortage of podiatrist. I am still laughing! from IP address 192.189.247.91 |
Denialby J. Anderson (no login)Thanks for the note. I do not understand why some people are blinded by facts. Perhaps they are in some sort of denial after all the money, time, "schooling" etc... to find out that there is little opportunity out there and are stuck with huge ever growing podiatry student loans. If podiatry is so crucial, so critical and necessary what do all the other countries other than USA, Australia, UK, and Canada do for ankle and foot surgery/medicine where there are no chiropodists/podiatrists?? Keep in mind all those countries listed above other than the US, the chiropodists/pods are severely restricted scope wise/training wise as to what they can do even removing a toenail or performing soft tissue procedures warts, callosities etc.... from IP address 134.174.18.54 |
That's crazyby Anonymous (no login)With that thinking, DOs, NPs, PAs, and dentists performing maxillofacial surgery must not be important either. Most of those professions do not exist or limited in their scope in foreign countries. In some parts of the world family docs still deliver all babies and specialty care is nonexistant. So are those professions unncessary here in the USA? Since there are no DPMs with our training in those countries the public doesn't have a choice and do not even know one exists. Year long waits for elective surgery, black market care, no choice,and in some cases lack of research, equipment and certain specialites. Yea we should mimic their system. Next time a world leader needs care see where he/she flys to. And I am sure we have as many patients crossing into Canada and Mexico as come here each year for healthcare. Yea the public sure is lucky in those foreign lands and are getting much better care even for their feet. Geez maybe you should move their just for the healthcare????? from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
That is good Podiatry thinking.by Anonymous (no login)from IP address 67.249.67.63 |
Re: Denialby JeffB (no login)You took the words right out of my mouth. It is funny how some people on this board let the facts get in the way of the truth. THis field is a complete and utter disaster. I would be living in a shoe box if I stayed. By the way does anyone want to buy a nail clipper? from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
Re: my point exactlyby cg (no login)So how do you explain the shortage of dental students in the 80s? Many dental schools actually closed down. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Re: my point exactlyby cg (no login) Podiatry Shortage Continues in Australia A BRIDGETOWN senior citizen has been refused podiatry care in the region and told to travel to Bunbury for treatment. Carmel Low was told due to a shortage of podiatrists in the area she would need to see a podiatrist in Bunbury. Warren-Blackwood area community health manager Sharon McBride said there was a gap in care currently with one part time podiatrist serving the entire region. The problem first started in February when the region's long- serving podiatrist left after 21 years. The situation has forced the health service to restrict podiatry care to the more serious cases. "We realise that a gap's been left and we're trying to do things to see that it's fixed," she said. "The people we're restricting the serve to is people with diabetes, severe foot problems and children. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
shortage in Australia.by Anonymous (no login)Ain't no shortage in America. from IP address 67.249.21.181 |
Coverselyby Anonymous (no login)Many on this site have touted nursing. Their high salaries and tremendous job opportunities. If that is the case why is there a shortage of nursing applicants and grads? Money/ jobs does not always dictate applicants. from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
Supply and Demandby Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM (no login)"Many on this site have touted nursing. Their high salaries and tremendous job opportunities. If that is the case why is there a shortage of nursing applicants and grads? Money/ jobs does not always dictate applicants." You have a point here, but remember that the job market for nursing is so great BECAUSE of the shortage. In other words, the shortage created the market. It's the same with pharmacy (which is what I would do if I could start over again). Not so in Podiatry, however. There is a shortage of students, but the market hasn't really taken notice. I'll admit that the residency situation has probably improved greatly due to the shortage, but I doubt the job offers have. True, you will always have some docs who get great offers. I don't deny that. Those docs, however, are probably from the same residencies that always secured good jobs (Northern VA, Northlake, Waldo, Kern, etc.). In the end, it's all about PR, people. If nobody knows what a podiatrist does (or we aren't on their insurance panels), they won't go see one. Jeffrey C. Davids, DPM from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
Agreeby Anonymous (no login)Jeff I will agree that we have been our own enemies in regards to PR. This is one area I have always disagreed with the majority of the APMA leadership. I am a member and have served as a state officer and have always questioned the emphasis on care that will eventually be noncovered or handled by others. I remember being on the PR committee for a northern state and the best they could come up with was a poster contest in nursing homes. I wanted a Did you know campaign so that people would start to know who and what we are. I still fight that battle but as the profession changes and we have gained hospital access and scope people are finally seeing what we do. One of our problems is when we fight among ourselves and the limited scope DPM refers patients to orthopedists for rearfoot and ankle care or when the full scope trys do care they are not good at or bored with(foot care and orthotics). Until we all can do anything that walks in or we begin to refer like the dentists this will not change. This profession is in a slump for applicants but as the incomes rises as all receive 2/3 year residencies and the graduate pool changes the employer to employee ratio we will se an increase. Now I hope when this occurs, we are better prepared to handle the graduates and make sure they all still receive good residency training. We will never see a return to the applicant pools of the 80s. Foreign medical schools now with student loan options and residency placement has drained all of the second choice professions. Malpractice, negative effects of managed care,increased competiton all have affected this and other professions. This downturn I think has been a good thing atleast regarding employment and training. Now if we can get the schools from being so tuition driven the poor applicant may not get the chance to bring us down. My opinion from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
100% correctby (no login)I agree 100% with what you have said. I have always stated that we need to be able to treat EVERY single foot pathology that walks through the door in order to be considered the "foot and ankle authorities." Although a system of referrals like the dentists use would also be a good idea, I still don't think we would be considered "major players" (to the MD's, or medical community, in general) under that model. One issue regarding hospital affiliations: It is a double-edged blessing. While it is great for the profession to be able to treat patients in the hospital, and ER, etc., it doesn't really promote the profession to the lay publice. When I did my ER roration in residency, the patients merely thought of me as a "doctor," which was great, but how many of them actually learned what a "podiatrist" is? And how many of them would follow up with a podiatrist for future foot problems? Jeff from IP address 198.81.26.170 |
Hospital PRby anonymous (no login)What I meant about hospital PR is that before we in the hospitals with full scope, nursing, staff, MDs, medical residents, administrators etc never interacted with podiatrists. They only time they saw us was when we were performing naul consults and when one of our complications was being handled by a medical specialist. Now they can see what we do and that means a better understanding. That is why orthopedics fought so hard to keep us off staff. The next step requires more university penetration (full scope) so that we will be seen from the student level(medical, nursing etc.) Everytime I achieved hospital access within 6 months the foot surgery referral patterns changed from MD to DPM. Not just to me but my colleagues. from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
LOOKING UPby QUI LE, DPM, MBA (no login)I share your pain. I was once doublt in the profession of podiatry. I have been in practice for more than five years. As a profession, we have a major precetion problem among our peers. We have a classic disease which I call "M.D. Syndrome". The profession of podiatry is more lucrative than ever if once apply the technique of bussiness model. No physician, MD, DO, or DPM, is trained with the aspect of bussiness methodology. Therefore, the disappointment of the profession is not uncommon. Few suggestions: wound care, sport medicine, self-marketing, and surgery as the last alternative. Good Luck! look it up, I have builded a company in three years, and now we are one of the largest podiatry company in the state. The company operates eight offices and three physicians on staff. from IP address 152.163.253.1 |
Thank Youby (no login)I want you to know I appreciated your response. I can see why you're succsessful because you take a pro active approach to your profession. Many people enter a profession for the wrong reasons. Let's face it it's nice to be called Dr. and make alot of money. From your message two things are apparent. One is that you respect yourself and your profession and the other is that you've networked well. The first trait is absolutely necessary.The other trait will help make you successful and respected by other health care providers. I can't judge whether there is an inherent flaw in podiatry or not but my guess is if there is, and I emphasise IF it was there when most of you chose to attend. You knew that you were receiving a DPM not an MD or DO you also are not receving an RN. You also were also aware that there are few or no DPM's at your local hospital. You knew this regardless of what your school admissions people said. I knew this and I have no connection to the medical/healthcare profession. So now that you have your DPM and spent 75-100k + for your education what do you do. Well let's see what do Phd's in english litterature do, or any liberal arts major who spent alot of time and money for a degree that may not yield them the big bucks. What about actors with masters degrees from Yale drama school havn't they earned the right to "make it." If they're smart they'll keep working at what they love. The MBA is not guaranteed a living but they already know this because they know that the world is a marketplace. The more that people want what you offer the more in demand you are, couple that with holding your head high and be proud of podiatry you are a member of the medical profession whether MD's agree or not. The oldest and most financially successful always hold the keys to the kingdom you knew that. And for those of you that are embarrassed about being Podiatric Physicians what do you gain by telling Pod students what problems await them. Whe're given one life, if you made a mistake going into Podiatry you wouldn't be the first to change careers. I know MD's that have left. I am a lawyer who doesn't practice Law,and yet I love what I'm doing now. The DPM that responded to my original message seems to "get it." Keep up with your skills and and keep aware of the market. One thing the aforementioned respondant has taught me seek out a Dr. that likes and respects what their doing. p.s. I've changed my mind I will once again seek out podiatrists not ortho's. THANK YOU! from IP address 209.214.13.173 |
Thank youby Anonymous (no login)Thank you for the kind words and an excellent post. Students please read the post closely. There are several important lessons in there. from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
Unique Websiteby Erin Girard (no login)I also have never seen a website like this. I am a prospective student for medical school programs including podiatry. Why would someone state these things if they weren't true? I called the podiatric colleges association and they are still accepting applications for this year-which is unusual since most medical colleges have finished their evaluation process and are deciding on wait-list apps. I also spoke with my primary doc and he knew very little about podiatry. from IP address 206.243.39.17 |
Tell your friends.by Anonymous (no login)This Forum is about the politics in podiatry and not about the quality of the work that Podiatrists do. There is a diffence. I don't remember seeing one post on the quality of the education or the quality of the standard of care. You can choose a podiatrist or a family doctor or a nurse or an orthopedist. It is your choice. from IP address 67.249.81.107 |
Brian Gale, DPM and APMAby Richard Willner DPM (no login)RE Brian Gale and the APMA If anybody other than Brian Gale knows this entire story, it is me as I ran the Brian Gale Defense Organization. The Doctor who posted last week had stated it well, but missed some important details. If anyone would like to review how the APMA "worked" the Brian Gale - Morth Dakota Board of Podiatry matter, just Email me at RW@BrianGale.com The TRUTH is obvious wnen you have the entire set of documents to review and share. My name, address, phone, and emails are posted for a very good reason. I am responsible for my posts. I have nothing to hide. Let's communicate today. Rich Wiullner, DPM President and Founder The Center for Peer Review Justice, Inc. 504-621-1670 LEGAL@PeerReview.org Info@PeerReview.org from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
Anyone?by A.A.D. (no login)Well its obvious that we (the current 4th year students who post here sometimes) and you (gloomers who are unhappy with podiatry) will not agree on the direction that podiatry is heading or even if its a viable career choice. So I ask one question. I know you guys keep saying that it is next to impossible to make a living as a podiatrist. So explain how it is that we are seeing many new podiatrists get great offers right after residency. Do me and Stu Pod just happen to see the only 15 people making it in podiatry this year and the other 500 or so graduates that we dont see are the ones failing miserably? How is that possible? We have gone to several surgical residencies and spent one or 4 months at each of those. Stu pod and I spent months at at least 10 different surgical programs between the two of us and have visited several others plus have talked to classmates about even more programs that they were at. At EVERY ONE we were seeing senior residents that were getting offers better than anything you guys are mentioning. This is why we are positive about our futures. It isnt ego driven or arrogance. We are going to be trained at the same programs as these residents and expect to get similar offers. So why would you say podiatry is a bad career (other than you failed at it) I doubt I will get any reasonable response other than thats just the way it is. You can complain all you want about lack of respect, lower medicare reimbursements, over saturation, etc. but I have not seen any evidence of this no matter what part of the country I go to. So forgive me for being so blatently dismissive of your comments. A.A.D. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
Sameby Anonymous (no login)AAD, Not sure who you are, but I am also a classmate of Stu Pods and have seen the same. I am sure there are some out there that are having trouble, so I don't doubt the comments made on this forum, but I disagree that it is the norm. From what I have seen, and the people that I have talked to, the majority seem to be doing quite well. Personally I have no doubt that I will have no difficulty in this field. It suits me quite well, and I have put in the effort to make sure that I have ample opportunity to do so. I am sure that I will have no trouble paying off my loans. I am positive that I will not only be able to do that, but will also live quite comfortably. I am at a stage where I think it is almost pointless to keep wasting time arguing with the "doom and gloomers" on this forum. They don't care to hear anything from "current students" anyway. They seem to have a more self-centered agenda focused on trying to disuade any new students from entering the field. Best of luck to all. Your "realities" seem quite different from what I have seen. ES from IP address 63.186.0.77 |
thanksby A.A.D. (no login)good point. missed you tuesday night for happy hour pizza. A.A.D. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
replyby Stu Pod (no login)Keep in mind you have a FEW people that post here continually that have admitted in the past that their sole motivation is revenge against the profession. Others have hinted that the more students they scare away, the less competition that they will have. In the past, I spent many hours on the forum trying to pass along advice that I received from extremely successful podiatrists. Others did the same. Then it became obvious that most of the posts here were from these same half dozen individuals just trying to scare students away. As per the disclaimer, they can give the impression that things are alot worse than they really are. Don't try to confuse the Doomers and Gloomers with facts, statistics, surveys, trends, and personal observations from across the country. They will continue to deny what you and I know to be true, and have no interest in the further advancement of the profession. My opinion. from IP address 12.83.150.60 |
Great Jobs? I don't see it.by (no login)Great Jobs for new residents? I don't see them. I see that the ones who go to work for orthopedic groups make very good money. But, that is still a few folks. In he main, I don't see the great jobs with the great money and i am in the consulting business. We get to see the contracts rather than to listen to locker room talk about whose (contract) is bigger than whose. The Center is available to help others with their contracts. Just Email us and we will go to work Richard Willner, DPM Presient The Center for Peer Review Justice, Inc Globe Homstead Bank Building 4051 Veterans, Suite 206 Metairie (New Orleans), LA 70002 from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
Richby Anonymous (no login)Rich I respect what you do but it is true. I review several DPM contracts a year and receive 30+ flyers per year for positions. The opportunities are incredible. When I finished residency it was open up or buy a practice. My kids are getting offers of 70-125,000 before bonuses. Even some of the DPM groups are offering 6 figures. Now I will concede my residents are full scope trained and an awesome grab for a busy practice. But when you look at the big picture, how many of these opportunities existed when you graduated? Now hospital privileges are given. Not the same in our generation. And the fact we are even talking about DPMs in ortho groups is something we would have never believed possible when I graduated in the mid 80s. Co-ownership of surgery centers with MDs, I mean Rich give in a little this profession has jumped light years in 15 years. I mean exfix courses, AO fellowships, arthroscopy. Things are changing my friend for the better. from IP address 64.12.96.200 |
thanksby A.A.D. (no login)Appreciate having someone contradict Dr. Willner. Im sure he serves an important function in his company but I think he must be out of touch with podiatry now. Everything is better than it used to be and should continue to improve with the new residency models. Salaries continue to go up, we are respected in the medical communities (ortho groups wouldnt hire pods if we werent respected by them), and training is becoming more standardized with everyone getting surgical training. A.A.D. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
Re: Great Jobs? I don't see it.by Anonymous (no login)How much do your services cost? from IP address 24.73.160.198 |
Hey webmeister -Pop upsby footdoc (no login)they're getting out of hand, I couldn't kill them the last time I logged on and had to shut down my browser from IP address 205.185.133.110 |
Re: Hey webmeister -Pop upsby Anonymous (no login)Buy some pop up blocking software such as ad-subtract. It works from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
?Seavers Disease?by Celia (no login)A friend of my son is 12 and had been dxed with Seavers Disease. (not sure of spelling). I am having a hard time finding any information. Any help is appreciated. thanks from IP address 205.188.208.9 |
Sever's Diseaseby Stu Pod (no login)Do an i-net search with this spelling and you should find alot more information. If you need more help, let us know. from IP address 12.83.150.60 |
Sever's diseaseby (no login)Sever's disease is not a disease. It is the detachment of the retro calcaneal growth plate of the heel bone. Usually found in males of your son's age group.It can be very painful. Usually the child is active and involved in sports.Raising the heel with cork implants (1/2 inch) can be useful followed by icing(see icing elsewhere)post activity with elevated rest. Foot orthoses are not indicated initially, although, they may be required in the future. Stretching exercises of the achilles tendon will also help in the future but certainly not now. Ask an experienced, knowledgible Podiatrist on how to perform these exercises for it is important that the stretching is symmetric. Consult your Podiatrist now. from IP address 213.122.208.232 |
Botoxby MD student (no login)Hello: Any DPMs out there have extensive experiences with treating hammertoes with Botox? I would like to know if you find it a good/very good modality. Thank you very much! ms4 from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
Botox???by footdoc (no login)I have never heard of this, and after pondering on the mechanism of botox, I could not think of any reason why it would be useful in the treatment of hammertoes. Perhaps you could enlighten us further? from IP address 205.185.133.110 |
botoxby MD student (no login)Well...I would tell you to open some journal articles and find out for yorself, but anyways...Dr. Jacobs, DPM from St. Louis tried using it on hammertoes of patients and he had some success. I was just curious as if any of you guys are using it on more than 50 patients. Thanks! from IP address 169.147.3.25 |
It's a jokeby Anonymous (no login)It is hilarious that only the people in the podiatry community (the naive students anyway) think that this is such a booming profession. Come on, are you the only smart ones that knows something that no one else does. If it's such a lucritive profession why can't the schools fill the seats? The past several years have been the lowest enrollment status in history for podiatry. It is a joke!! I commend the youngsters for battling for podiatry due to the fact that they made a bad decision when deciding to go into podiatry instead of medical school, but fact is you are fighting for a lost cause! from IP address 192.189.247.241 |
the real jokeby Stu Pod (no login)The real joke is the Doomers and Gloomers on the far left side of the income curve telling us that this is a dead profession just because they haven't made it yet. We are expected to ignore our observations of the 100 plus podiatric physicians that we encounter during our education, the fact that net income continues to rise, patient visits continue to increase, residency training continues to improve, and the fact that new residency graduates are getting great job offers. You may convince a prospective student or two that this is a dead profession, but don't expect the rest of us to buy it. from IP address 12.83.150.38 |
Re: the real jokeby dpm student (no login)"The new residency graduates are getting great job offers" I just don't see it. I hope you are right because I am a dpm student that is getting more discouraged everyday. I came to school with the expectations of becoming a respected doctor that was going to make a decent living. That is not what I am experiencing. There are a few podiatrist that seem to be doing o.k. The length of our school and training is comparable to MD/DO yet we, at least I am, praying that I will find a job. They our guaranteed a 120k at the absolute minimum no matter what residency they do family practice or any primary care. I wishe I would have listened to the "gloomers" now I am stuck with enormous debts that I don't even know if I will ever be able to pay off. Podiatry sucks. Anyway, if you could post some of those "great job offers" I would certainly appreciate it. I need something to cheer me up. from IP address 192.189.247.91 |
DPM Studentby J. Anderson (no login)Hard work and substance may get you only so far, however, after the residency game, you must acquire a job that pays enough for the large students loans and provide for yourself (and medical/dental benies) and a family if you have one. It can be quite challenging, one of my attendings after residency stocked the shelves at night at the nearby grocery to help pay a portion of the loans in addition to his podiatry job. Speak to many, hospital administrators, insurance panels, DPMs, MD, etc for job prospects, and true career moves. It can be done, however, a MD/DO/DDS/PT/PA degree provides a much more tangible career ops and pay scales. Best wishes. from IP address 134.174.248.160 |
Re: DPM Studentby CG (no login)I have spoke to my attendings any fellow residents and they tell me the oportunities are out there. My god you have a terrible personality, no wonder you cant make it your attitude is horrible. You claim to be a professional, but all you do is try to break students down and discourage others. You should take a look in the mirror and maybe there you will get answers on why you have failed. I hope you take this constructively, but I would guess you wont. Heres a little piece of free advice "only losers sit back(behind a computer in your case, thats the sad part) and bitch and moan and try to make others feel bad so they can justify their own failure. Its not your fault your miserabe, its PODIATRY who is responsible. You poor thing I feel so sad for you J. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Unprofessional Podiatric Behaviourby J. Anderson (no login)Dear Sir/Madam: Before you revert to presenting a state of "miserable personality", or "failure" in "podiatry" on someone who may disagree with your viewpoints-all view points must be considered on this board--without a personal slam or one word replies. Are you a BC psychiatrist/psychologist whereby you can render a psychiatric WU from a brief reply? Is someone who disagrees with your opinions labelled as "disgruntled", "negative", " positive", or have a neurosis? I have taught at the podiatric schools, given money to PPAC, and sat on admissions boards, and taught formally residents and can only report factually what I have seen and my colleagues and I have experienced. Are you going to pay for the podiatric docs that do not make it and can not pay their living expenses/huge student loans when they are 30,40, 50 years young? If you would like to debate the issues in a professional manner please do so without pejorative remarks, personal insults, and emotional outbursts that do more harm to your cause than an objective, detached factual response based on stats, real life experience swith hospitals, HMOs, health insurance panels, and admissions committees, and podiatry schools issues. Thank you. J. Anderson from IP address 170.223.175.29 |
Re: Unprofessional Podiatric Behaviourby Anonymous (no login)Professional is something you have not been since you started posting on this board. You have done nothing but discourage and degrade students and others on this board. Constructive is one thing sir, but you have been downright negative,unsupporting and condesending. from IP address 141.150.121.13 |
Guilty as Chargedby J. Anderson (no login)Dear Sir/Madam: If "discouraging" and "degrading" students is stating them facts and real life experiences from over 10 years experience not PR rhetoric or student experiences with biased teachers-then I am guilty as charged anonmymous. from IP address 170.223.175.29 |
replyby Stu Pod (no login)If you truly believe that "podiatry sucks", then no amount of advice is going to make you successful. The motivated and well-trained grads of today that I've met ARE getting great job offers. I've seen ranges from $70,000-$120,000 from the residents at the surgical programs I visited. However, whiners need not apply for those positions. from IP address 12.83.149.37 |
Get out while you still have a buck left in your pocketby Anonymous (no login)Most of the 100 plus attendings you meet during podiatry school are employed by the institution so you are not getting unbiased opinions. You are only a student and most of the people posting on this board have been in practice. You call us doomers and gloomers, but we are giving you the FACTS. You feel like many of us did when we were in school. You are so wrapped up in your every day schedule of classes and clinics you are not able to see the real truth. Listen to the people who have been in the trenches, not the docs making $50 an hour in the clinic so they can get health benefits they couldn't pay for themselves from IP address 24.187.199.162 |
biased opinionsby A.A.D. (no login)You are sadly mistaken if you think that we (current students) get all of our info about podiatry from our school. We all know that they will paint a rosy picture. I base my opinions on what I saw on my 4th year rotations. I rotated at several hospitals, with many podiatrists in private practice in several cities, some knew graduates and some in practice over 30 years. I think I saw a good variety while I was out. EVERY SINGLE ONE was making it. Even a lady one year out of a 3year residency that started up a practice from scratch in my hometown was making enough to live off of. We know what current residents are being offered this june when they graduate. Opportunites are out there and its not just blind faith on the students parts. We have done the research and have planned out our futures. We know what to expect and are working hard to make sure it happens. we call you doom and gloomers because you dont even remember why you got into podiatry or maybe you got into it for the wrong reasons. Then when it turned out that it was a career for fast and easy money you left and feel that it cheated you. podiatry is becoming a more respected profession because we are getting rid of people like you. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
Re: biased opinionsby Anonymous (no login)4th year student: Do you really feel or think that this older podiatrist "is a disgrace"? Remember that we were "hotshots" also in our 4th year. We leared a bit of life outside of the schools. We respect that. If you respect our opinions, that is fine. If not, keep it to yourself. That is what professionalism is all about. from IP address 67.248.251.39 |
is a disgraceby A.A.D. (no login)I do think this podiatrist is a disgrace to the profession when he holds his own single experience up as proof that this profession is dying or already dead. Gloomers on this board say we are just 4th year students and do not know anything outside of schools. I will admit that was more truthful before my 4th year. But during my 4th year I made many connections with doctors outside of schools and residency programs that were successful and looking for new partners. Gloomers hold their so called "facts" about not being able to make money and I and Stupod are supposed to just say, "You must be right even though we have seen very different things during our rotations. But we are just 4th year students and really dont know anything." We are not reciting the garbage that schools feed new students. We are basing our opinions on what we see out in the real world from private practice opportunities offered to new resident graduates. These are not made up. Everyone in our class got a surgical residency. Most got a 2 or 3 year surgical residency. We are coming out better trained and on a more equal level as other doctors. No, we wont make as much as neurosurgeons in private practice. But the average salary over $100,000 is not a myth. I have seen too many examples of this to believe a bunch of gloomers I have never seen over the actual podiatrists I spent time with that are making this money. I in no way mean to disrespect anyone on this board but many of the statements made are flat out lies. I respect you if you say you struggled or are struggling or left the profession, but do not try to make that true for everyone. There are many people succeeding in this profession and many new graduates are being rewarded for their hard work and increased training. I dont care if some of you think I am just a "hotshot 4th year" because in the end all that matters is how I do for myself and my family. I have no problems expressing the true state of this profession with anyone that is willing to present facts to back up their statements and not just a handful of failing podiatrists. Every field has its share of failures and just because you spend lots of money on education doesnt guarantee you a good job. If you went into podiatry with that notion then you started off on the wrong foot. A lot more than that goes into being successful. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
Re: is a disgraceby 1st year out (no login)AAD, I suggest you listen to what the people on this board have to say because you dont want to end up like them. With that being said alway remeber you dont go to peewee herman to learn how to box and you dont go to mike tyson to learn how to act so dont go to doctors who are failures to learn how to run a business. Stick with the doc you know and can speak to in person and you will be ok. 1st year out from IP address 141.150.48.182 |
Re: biased opinionsby Anonymous (no login)I can speak for myself and I have been out for 5 yrs now. It is tough out here, but you can make a great living if you have the fortitude to hang on. I agree with you when you say most student do not get their info from the school, but from practicing doctors and research. from IP address 141.150.96.155 |
Wrongby A.A.D. (no login)I don't believe that anyone truly believes that podiatry is an exploding career choice where easy money will be made. Thats just plain stupid. I may only be a fourth year and I have seen enough newly graduated residents receive offers much higher than people on the forum will admit to. I am not just standing up for podiatry to keep from admiting I made a mistake. Some people may have made a mistake but I definately did not. I have enjoyed the majority of my experiences so far and especially my several months I spent with different pods in private practice (at least 8 in different areas of the country). All were doing fine (even the new startup in my hometown was making enough money to pay bills and be comfortable). So while you may resent podiatry and the opportunities that you failed to take advantage of, I look forward to both the challenge and enjoyment of podiatry. I may be naive but I am not so stubborn as to not change to fit into the ever changing world of podiatry. In my (limited) experience podiatrists are better trained, better prepared, better paid, and more respected in the medical communities I have visited. If that is not the case for you then you and I have never crossed paths and I am inclined to believe you have never attempted to find a place like that. A.A.D. from IP address 12.214.216.126 |
30 Percent of Production.by (no login)RE My last Young Podiatrists Contracts that I have seen state that the Junior guy will earn 30 Percent of production. If he does 200K a year, then he grosses 60K. And, he pays all expenses including Malpractice Insurance and taxes. I recall when that number was 50 percent, but with time passing, the number gets lower and lower. from IP address 152.163.189.129 |
out of touchby Stu Pod (no login)All of the residency grads I met that shared their employment information had deals that guaranteed them at least $70,000 plus insurance and benefits, with bonus potential to do much better. The residency director that frequently posts here has backed that up on numerous occasions. 40 or 45 % of production was tied to the bonus amount usually. Some may be willing to take 30% and in some situations it might even be an appropriate percentage, but it is not the "going rate". If you think starting salaries are going down now that most everyone is getting surgical training, you are out of touch. from IP address 12.83.151.157 |
30% sounds very right.by Anonymous (no login)Yes, the number that i use is 30% also. I can see a 25% figure in the future as the expenses are increasing. from IP address 67.249.44.49 |
Podiatry sounds disastrousby visitor (no login)After seeing flyers touting podiatry as better than law school, I looked into the profession a bit. While I am not here to question the medicine or the training (I am sure there are some very intelligent and skilled DPMs out there), one must question the viability of the career. It is highly risky to invest at least four years and 100-200K+ on a career that may or may not pan out. Hell, I am thinking about DDS or MD/DO, and I am worried about how I will ever pay for those loans, especially if I don't get into my state school and have to go private...btw, I would rather attend my in-state school, U of MN, for either than attend even the most ritzy private school. UMN costs as much as a private school anyway now! Back to my point, Podiatry, even if one loves the career and genuinely wants to do it, is too risky. At that level of indebtedness, it becomes a virtual make or break proposition for life. Other health professions will almost certainly be able to overcome debt to make at least a comfortable living, but with DPM and DC, it seems dicey at best. from IP address 216.185.205.122 |
Doomer/Gloomerby (no login)According to many on this board/forum, your message can definitely be defined as doom and gloom. As such, your information is to be considered as having no merit, or have any basis in reality. But, thank you for your obviously wrong opinion of podiatry and chiropractics. Even though it sounds like you have invested a great deal of due diligence in your investigation of future medical careers, one of us must be wrong and it can't be me. I am sure that at least four of every ten graduating podiatrists will do very well after about 15 years of practice. Seriously, all sarcasim aside, from one doomer/gloomer to another, thank you for your hopefully unbiased opinion based on real life investigation. from IP address 216.119.3.211 |
actually it's not doom and gloomby Anonymous (no login)it is very realistic to consider podiatry a risk. Most make it some don't- is it worth the risk? When i was young and stupid it was worth the risk and i have fallin into the category of "making it" I certainly tell any potential student about this risk it doesn't make him or her a doom and gloomer. |