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Created in 1999 to facilitate intelligent & constructive communication between prospective students , podiatric medical students & doctors.  Thank you for making the PF the busiest podiatry forum on the internet. Comments expressed are NOT those of the webmaster, moderators nor advertisers/sponsors but rather reflect the opinions of that individual poster.  

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Medicare: 40% LESS pay.

by Anonymous (no login)

It is all but official. Medicare will decrease reimbursements by 20 percent in 3 years. If one has overhead at 50%, that is 40% LESS in profit!!

Hey, does anybody think this is an issue in one's life?

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 11:06 PM
from IP address 67.26.42.87

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Just what is this????

by Anomalous (no login)

http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=839157

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 5:52 PM
from IP address 63.206.142.142

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What next?

by CCPM00 (no login)

I was thinking of a possible 2nd career besides podiatry and wondered if it was possible for a DPM to obtain a NP degree and integrate the two degrees to treat the whole body - and then the ankles and feet surgically. What would be the possible restrictions/problems? Ideas are very well appreciated.

CCPM00

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 11:51 PM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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The restrictions

by Practicing Doc (no login)

The restrictions on this idea would have to be making a living. You couldn't do it!

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 12:34 PM
from IP address 216.79.66.34

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NP with DPM

by (no login)

Why NP? For one, you must have a BSN with 4 years of school, and THEN 2 years of MSN program...for a total more of 6 years. Good luck on trying to practice with that. On the other hand, why don't you consider Chiropractic? The two would go great together, as so many "back" problems come from altered biomechanics. Plus, you could do surgery for the biomechanically altering hang nails and bunions.
AND, most likely, your sciences could transfer over for the most part. I know when I thought of becoming a Pod in Chiro school, I could be admitted to CCPM and get advanced standing.

Posted on Nov 29, 2002, 8:43 PM
from IP address 64.158.123.252

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We know the problems now...

by Justin (no login)

Now that we know the problems in podiatry, lets figure out the solutions on a 'real' level. Lets hear the thoughts and ideas of doctors and students.

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 11:48 PM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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You have not a clue as to the problems

by Anonymous (no login)

Justin,

The problems as a student are nothing compared to investing in a profession where you may not earn enough money to support yourself and your student loans.

Is it fair that the total risk is on the backs of the students?

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 7:03 PM
from IP address 67.25.8.253

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Untitled

by Anonymous (no login)

Who are nurse practitioners?

• Registered nurses with advanced, specialized training in primary care, OB/GYN, pediatrics, anesthesia, and emergency medicine.

• Often practice medicine without doctor supervision.

• Tend to carry a lower incidence rate than physicians.

• Tend to spend more time with each patient.

• Licensed in all 50 states.

• Can write prescriptions in every state independently except four -- Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan and Ohio -- require a doctor to co-sign the order.

• About 65,000 nurse practitioners work in the United States.

• Jan. 5, 2000 - A study done at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center reports that nurses practicing emergency medicine, OB/GYN, anesthesia, primary care and pediatrics recieve the the same quality of care rendered by physicians.

• Most RNs choose to not go past a BSN because the pay increase is >5% of that of a advance practice nurse with a masters degree.

source: American College of Nurse Practitioners

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 9:45 PM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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ms3

by AnonStu (no login)

with regards to all medical professionals, it is not medical school that podiatrists attend. It is podiatry school. You call them medical students, they earn the doc of podiatric medicine but what about dental students? They earn the doc of dental surgery or dental medicine (DDS/DMD) are they medical students or dental students? They are dental students. Podiatry could be much better as a profession if the practitioners realized they are not medical doctors, physicians, or attend 'medical school'.

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 9:25 PM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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Illogical

by Anonymous (no login)

By the same logic, explain why osteopsths attend "medical school."? They are osteopaths, not medical doctors.

Posted on Nov 16, 2002, 10:07 AM
from IP address 158.252.213.181

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osteopaths

by Anonymous (no login)

Call them what you will but DOs are medical doctors no matter how you look at it. Duh! You have no validity in your statement. Illogical... thats right you are

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 10:21 AM
from IP address 63.228.198.14

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Illogical logic

by Anomalous (no login)

Unfortunately, you fail to understand the difference between an osteopath and a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. There are osteopaths in Europe (for example) who treat patients with hands-on manipulation, but cannot do surgery, prescribe drugs or admit them into hospitals. A Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine has ALL of the same rights, responsibilities and education as an MD. A DO is a medical doctor by any definition.

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 10:41 AM
from IP address 64.172.196.1

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what?

by ms3 (no login)

Dental students are med students too. Have you ever gotten a really bad toothache? I have...and believe me, there is no issue! You would be calling them BIG DADDY...or what ever they want to be called! My point is, "med student" or not, how is that going to change what you do???? Stewardesses wants to be called flight attendants. I don't care! Call yourselves astronauts if you want to, just go get me some pretzels and a Coke. IT'S WHAT YOU DO...NOT WHAT YOU ARE CALLED.
MS3
"This is Dr. Badass...he's going to debride your pinky toenail."----- "This is Joe...he's going to operate on your brain." WHO CARES!!!!!

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 6:58 PM
from IP address 169.147.155.186

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Re: what?

by anoni (no login)

osteopathic students are studying to become physicians, physicians practice medicine, thus they are medical students. They are called medical students because they are training to become medical doctors, not MD's, but medical doctors.

Posted on Nov 22, 2002, 4:45 AM
from IP address 66.2.47.17

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what?

by ms3 (no login)

Are you not understanding what I am saying? I'm saying that we are all medical student. ms3

Posted on Nov 22, 2002, 11:59 AM
from IP address 204.185.73.66

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actually you are wrong

by Anonymous (no login)

They are studying to become Doctors of osteopathy. They practice osteopathy thus they are osteopathic students. Medical doctors are MD's. Osteopathic doctors are DO's.

Posted on Nov 22, 2002, 3:06 PM
from IP address 64.196.60.6

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dental, medical, osteopathic, podiatric students

by MDFACS (no login)

Dental are not medical students by any means
Allopathic are medical students
Optometric are not medcal students
Osteopathic are medical students
Chiropractic are not medical students
Podiatric are not medical students

There is nothing wrong with not being a "medical student" and the professions argued are not medical student professions by any means. They are an area of specialized medicine, the type of student depicts what type of student they are.

Who cares about what European students/professionals are or can do??? Completely irrelavant.

Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 2:10 AM
from IP address 216.160.236.147

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Re: dental, medical, osteopathic, podiatric students

by Anonymous (no login)

Do podiatry students study medicine or podiatry? What is the differnce from medicine and podiatry.

Posted on Nov 28, 2002, 10:22 AM
from IP address 206.149.205.172

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About $200,000 -300,000

by Anonymous (no login)

You want to know the difference between medicine and podiatry?

Posted on Nov 29, 2002, 12:49 PM
from IP address 63.215.172.213

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AMA-- EMERGENCY NOTICE.

by Anonymous (no login)

The AMA announced 11-5-02 that the Medicare system has decreased the pay to MDs by 5.4 percent this year and will decrease the reimbursement by 12 more percent within the next 3 years.

The AMA as asked all MDs to get involved in contacting their Congressman so that this Medicare pay schedule can be fixed.

Please see the AMA Website for more details.

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 11:27 PM
from IP address 67.26.43.155

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good!

by ms3 (no login)

I think doctors make too much anyway. But I'm sure that there will definitely be resisitance on ALL SIDES...b/c if they do it on the MDs, they will do it to you too. ms3

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 11:05 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.66

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Re: good!

by Anonymous (no login)

Wait until you have that monthly 2000.00 minimum student loan payment, 65%overhead and increasing yearly, and the lives(ability to get around in the case of the podiatrist) of your patients in your hands before you decide that Doc's make too much money.

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 6:32 PM
from IP address 24.92.208.146

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that is standard

by ms3 (no login)

I go to state school and my tuition is only 6k/yr. I have a scholarship that pays for my expenses. There are also tons of pack back opportunities everywhere. The docs that do owe 200K or more, I don't know anyone of them that has trouble paying it back. In fact, most of them pay it back in less than 5 yrs and these are family docs with families! Except for a few chiropractors. I know dpms that are racking it up.
ms3

Posted on Nov 19, 2002, 2:35 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.98

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that' not exactly what I mean

by Anonymous (no login)

All I can say is when you are in practice I am 90% sure you will NOT think you make too much money! It's futile at this stage in your career to even try to convince you otherwise. Oh do I miss those days of lofty philosophical ideas.

Posted on Nov 20, 2002, 2:21 PM
from IP address 64.196.60.17

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you might be right

by ms3 (no login)

Perhaps.But I will try to remain lofty philosophical for as long as I can. ms3

Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 11:36 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.98

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Need advise

by Student (no login)

I'm currently a 2nd yr student that is receiving good grades (GPA 3.4) and is ranked in the top 20 of my class. I am an honest and hard working student and would like to succeed in podiatry. But I am not sure which way I should go about directing my academic goals to achieve success. What is the real world looking for? Should I join as many clubs as possible? In which direction should I aim for? I would appreciate an honest and sincere advise from a recent graduate or someone with experience.

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 7:48 PM
from IP address 198.61.29.117

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RE: Advice

by Pod Stuent (no login)

From what faculty and clerkship directors tell me, I believe that joining a numerous amount of pod clubs doesn't do anything for your CV unless you are an APMSA national rep for your school. Grades are important and from what they tell me, residency interviews can be academic (presentation of a case) as well as social. I don't know since I am not there yet.

What is definitely important is how you perform during your clinical rotations. Your professionalism and work ethic need to be outstanding to get good residency slots. Some faculty also mention that research experience in gait analysis or other related podiatric research will help but you must know your material. Your CV will definitely be a factor along with the letters of evaluation of your performance in clerkship.

Again, this is what was advised to me from the clerkchip directors and clinical faculty at my school.
Good luck!

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 6:08 PM
from IP address 68.20.219.78

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The real world

by Anonymous (no login)

The real world could not care less about your clubs.
You do have to learn as much as you can so that you can fight for those $40,000 jobs after your residency.

In fact, I know of one senior podiatrist who hired a younger podiatrist to do front office and back office support work as it was cheaper to hire a young podiatrist than to hire a high school graduate to do that work.

This is a true story. Details available upon request.

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 12:11 AM
from IP address 67.24.14.169

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Re: The real world

by BJHawkins (no login)

Although there is people out there that hire Associates for small pay it is relative to a persons training. I am in my second year of my four years andc I have been offered several jobs (already) paying close to and some over 200K. It is all relative to your training.

The better the training the better your bargining chip!

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 6:56 PM
from IP address 198.45.6.61

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Too Bad

by 3rd year out (no login)

Too bad all deserving students do not have the opportunity for a multi-year surgical residency. Too bad the schools fail to mention that fact.

Any prospective students or pod students out there?

Run away from podiatry.

Posted on Nov 19, 2002, 6:21 PM
from IP address 64.45.224.161

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Second Year of What?

by Anonymous (no login)

I was wondering, you stated that you were in your second year out of four years, and you are receiving $200K offers. Are you in your second year of podiatric residency or in your second year of podiatry school?

Anonymous

Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 2:13 PM
from IP address 207.73.206.18

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I was offered $97,000 first year.

by Joe Best, DPM (no login)

Hey to all of you losers in Podiatry, I was offered
$96,784 that I rounded up to $97,000 in my first year of a Associateship.

My job will be to talk as many patients into forefoot surgery and expecially tenotomies. Notice that Tenotomies do not leave any trace and who knows how many of them are really done?

My job is to go to Nursing Homes and bill an ingrown nail fee of $140 on each big toe on every visit. My first day is only 30 patients, but the total fee will be $8400. Needness to say, I am underpaid and will get a significant bonus.

Podiatry is a great paying business and I will be sure to do my best to treat those insurance forms to the best of my ability.

Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 7:18 PM
from IP address 67.26.41.122

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Re: Need advise

by Anonymous (no login)

Don't worry about grades. Do what you need to LEARN the material. Some fo the schools have a large % of their class with 4.0's. Other schools have a top student with maybe 3.7-3.8 sp the grades don't mean much at all to most people.

Do join some clubs if you have an intrest there. I would not recommend joining a lot fo clubs just to have something to put on your CV. I would be more impressed if you only joined a couple clubs, but held positions within the club, and got things organized to actually do something.

Think about those.

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 4:31 PM
from IP address 65.178.209.93

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RE: Advise

by Eric Richardson, DPM, C.Ped (no login)

I think of your question more so as an opportunity cost. The real question is how can I best appropriate my time outside of studies to help me achieve my specific goals. I would like to recommend spending time with a local practicing podiatrist. Observe and learn both the clinical scenarios which will help you become a more affluent podiatrist, and maybe just as important the business component of running a podiatry office. I can not emphasize how important it is to have a working knowledge of the business management component. Being a fairly recent granduate and working in solo practice now, I can honestly say the preparation regarding the business component of podiatry was pitiful at my podiatry college. It has been a crash course in the school of hard knocks because of it. I think clubs do contribute to your knowledge but I think you will get more bang for your time to actually get involved in the things you will have to know to survive once you are in the real world.

This is just my opinon-

Eric Richardson

Posted on Nov 16, 2002, 11:28 AM
from IP address 198.81.26.235

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Go to medical school

by anonymous (no login)

If you are into your third year of school, leave right now and do something else!

Posted on Nov 25, 2002, 6:42 PM
from IP address 216.215.133.45

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re: highest paid professions

by Anonymous (no login)

Searching a few more sites I found the exact same listing but different salaries. Check them out...

Occupation Median wages, 1997
Hourly Annual
Physicians and surgeons $60.01+ $124,800+
Dentists $52.45 $109,100
Podiatrists $45.75 $95,200
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers N/A $76,600
Lawyers $35.85 $74,600
Petroleum engineers $35.12 $73,000
Engineering, mathematical, and natural sciences managers $34.94 $72,700
Physicists and astronomers $34.94 $72,700
Optometrists $33.14 $68,900
Aeronautical and astronautical engineers $32.95 $68,500
Nuclear engineers $32.79 $68,200
Chiropractors $31.38 $65,300
Pharmacists $30.77 $64,000
Actuaries $30.43 $63,300
Airplane dispatchers and air traffic controllers $30.33 $63,100
Chemical engineers $29.85 $62,100
Electrical and electronic engineers $28.44 $59,200
Computer engineers $28.07 $58,400
Education administrators $28.02 $58,300
Mining engineers, including mine safety $26.60 $55,300
Metallurgists and metallurgical, ceramic, and materials engineers $26.55 $55,200
Physical therapists $26.31 $54,700
General managers and top executives $26.05 $54,200
Marketing, advertising, and public relations managers $25.61 $53,300
Medical scientists $25.52 $53,100
Note: The annual wage is based on a 40-hour work week for 52 weeks (year).

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 2:57 AM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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PODIATRISTS VERY HIGH INCOME

by Anonymous (no login)

OK

You are right. Podiatrists have one the highest incomes of all of the USA.

Ok. Students. It is time to fill up the classes of podiatry.

Frankly in spite of this "evidence", Podiatry is profession headed towards being a footnote in history.

Choose whatever facts one wants to choose. But, is "podiatry" a future career that one can bet one's entire economic future on?

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 9:44 PM
from IP address 67.26.43.155

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I dont get it

by Anonymous (no login)

Searching the highest paying jobs in the US, pods come up no. 4. What the heck? People complain that they cant afford to eat being a pod? Where do these stats come from??? I certainly know that they are not just made up out of thin air. I know that there isnt a conspiracy to promote pods earnings. Why do docs here claim poverty? Here is the site, check it out for yourself... http://www.employmentspot.com/lists/highpay.htm

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 2:53 AM
from IP address 63.225.56.114

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Copied from Podiatry Online (Good reading)

by Anonymous (no login)

From: Michael M. Rosenblatt, DPM
Comment: Ambulatory Surgery Center Ownership and Income

CONSPICUOUS ABSENCE IN OTHERWISE EXCELLENT APMA STUDY

I urge APMA members to look at the excellent study on
podiatrists' income (and other features) located at the APMA
membership income survey for 2001, which has just been
published and is available for free on a Adobe Acrobat reader
download.

(APMA Members interested in obtaining a copy of the 2002 Podiatric
Practice Survey, may download the survey at http://www.apma-online.org
or contact APMA to purchase a hard copy for $25. Contact the Audiovisual
Department at 1-800-ASK-APMA (275-2752), extension 277.)

Unlike a "certain infamous OIG study on nail care,"
this study is highly documented and researched. Whereas the
database for the OIG study was defective and undisclosed, APMA
is to be congratulated for their thoroughness and trustworthiness
of data.

My only criticism is that it does not discuss ownership interest in
accredited ambulatory surgical centers and this impact (if any) on
podiatrist income. This data would be extremely valuable to
readers. I don't want to rehash the study, but there are some
obvious factors that increase income. One obvious factor is more
patient visits. Another is board certification. Others would follow
naturally, such as "more years of experience" and retirement of
college loans.

It takes an average of 15-19 years to pay off college loans. This
is a long time. On the other hand 36% of respondent podiatrists
had a gross income of over 300,000/year. While this is certainly
not as high as orthopedic surgeons, for example, who have a
NET income of well over 300,000/year, it would appear that we
are not starving! But there are a certain small number of
podiatrists who have an income closer to orthopedic surgeons,
and we are all naturally curious as to why this is. Could it relate to
ASC ownership?

Most podiatrists still get their lion's share of income from
Medicare. Heel pain and nail complaints comprise that largest
share. So there must be a reason why the outliers in income
vastly exceed that number. I believe that facility fees from ASC's
could explain that difference, since there are only a certain
number of hours/day in which you can treat patients, and the
income you derive from grinding nails or treating heel complaints
will not be different for those with a higher income than you.
Could ASC facility fees explain that difference?

Financing of ASC's and the "difficulty" in setting one up are often
key reasons why some podiatrists shy away from it. For example,
in some states, an external power generator is necessary, which
can cost 22,000 dollars. Yet, if the gross income you derive from
owning one increases to over 500,000/year, that and the other
associated expenses in setting one up would seem to be minor.
The key element of that argument rests in CONTINUING a
500,000 dollar gross over an extended period of practice years,
say between your 35th and 60th year of practice. That would
represent a 25-year duration, which would clearly put you into the
realm of the typical orthopedists' income. Anyone who
experiences a gross income of over 500,000/year over 25 years
will have an enormous lifetime income.

Even if you "split" an ASC with several other podiatrists instead of
owning yours by yourself, there would seem to be a continued
value of having an owners' interest.

Most podiatrists with large incomes are somewhat reluctant to
disclose the actual nature of their exceptional income. I would
define them as follows:

1) ABPS Certification

2) ASC ownership

3) Willingness to work long hours (including the health to do so)

4) Clear awareness and use of the CPT codes that are most
profitable

5) Attendance at seminars to learn new techniques

6) Group practice affiliation

7) Ownership of their own practice

Throughout my 28 years of practice, including the ownership of a
Medicare Certified Surgical Center, and considering my earlier
years of financial starvation, I have come to the conclusion that:

1) Podiatrists are not doing at all badly, despite what you read on
this column.

2) I vastly eclipsed my own father's income as a schoolteacher
after my 3rd year of practice.

3) Orthopedic surgeon's income is at least twice ours, but some of
us come closer to them. I think I know why.

4) I thought that college loans were a significant problem. While it
takes a long time to pay them off, going to podiatry school is still a
great idea.

5) The "art" of practice depends on a small number of treatment
codes, which are very profitable, and unfortunately not all
podiatrists use them.

I need to disclose here that I have a fiduciary interest in ASC
development. My web site is:
http://officeascaccreditation.homestead.com/

Judge for yourself.

Michael M. Rosenblatt, DPM
ROSEY1@prodigy.net
San Jose, California

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 11:42 PM
from IP address 63.186.32.226

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MDs and orthopods will replace DPMs.

by ANON (no login)

In Ontario, Canada this has already happened. Here's a true scenario.

A 70 y.o. patient with painful bunions sees the DPM. X-rays ( the only diagnostic test that DPMs can do/order in Ontario) are performed, orthotics are recommended and the patient consents. The fee so far is $500. A year later, the patient comes back with bunions that are more painful, x-rays are done, again, then the DPM recommends surgery (the fee is $2,000) the x-rays and consult cost $80.00. The patient says, "I'll think about it." The patient goes to his MD and complains about the painful bunions. The MD orders blood work. The results show an elevated uric acid level. The MD prescibes Apo-Allopurinol, this is the generic copy drug of Allopurinol and is covered by the Ontario Drug Benefit (ODB) program for persons in the low-income bracket. The patient's bunions feel better. A year later, the bunions are sore again. Another blood test is done, the various blood levels are normal, so the patient is referred to an othopaedic surgeon who specializes in foot surgery. The patient asks, "Is he fully covered by OHIP [Ontario Health Insurance Plan, the medicare program]? When I went to the podiatrist a few years ago, he recommended surgery and it would cost me $2,000 above OHIP's coverage?" "Yes," responds the MD, "OHIP fully covers MDs in Ontario and that includes MD specialists." The DPM route cost the patient (who does not have extended health insurance) $580.00. The MD and orthopaedic surgeon route, including blood work, pre & post-op x-rays, surgery and follow-up checks, cost the patient $0.00 (zero dollars). 6 months later, the patient's neighbour comments that her feet are sore and asks who should she see. What do you think the patient will say?



    
This message has been edited by mmez from IP address 207.166.216.201 on Nov 10, 2002 8:11 AM

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 12:21 PM
from IP address 65.48.41.73

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Re: MDs and orthopods will replace DPMs.

by Anonymous (no login)

And how long does it take that patient to be able to get in to see an MD. My understanding is that the health care system in Canada is fairly backlogged, esp for elective procedures.

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 6:01 PM
from IP address 63.186.17.15

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Re: Re: MDs and orthopods will replace DPMs

by ANON (no login)

The patient saw his MD within a week then it took 6 weeks to see the orthopod and then 2 weeks later the procedure was done in a hospital OR. There was no extra fees associated with the surgery performed by the orthopod. This was in Toronto, a city with hospitals that are backlogged. Would you spend $2,000 on surgery when your penison is $14,000/yr and your rent is $850/month?

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 2:56 PM
from IP address 199.243.105.11

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Canada

by Anonymous (no login)

Who cares what goes on in Canada. Canadians trained in the US have always known the difficulty in practicing there. Who cares about a country where a larger portion wants to become it's own nation and have it's own language. Take off you hosers!!!! LOL

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 1:09 PM
from IP address 205.188.208.42

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Re: Re: Re: MDs and orthopods will replace DPMs

by Anonymous (no login)

No. Though I also don't see this as an arguement that MD's and Orthopods will replace DPMs.

Part of the reason that DPMs exist is that they were doing things that the MD's did not want to do. It has not moved forward to a point where that is looking attractive to some of the MDs, and now they want it.

Your examples form Canada don't really translate well either. The health care systems are different.

By the way how many Podiatry schools are there in Canada?
Are they now granting DPM degrees?

Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 4:34 PM
from IP address 65.178.209.93

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The post "MDs and orthopods will replace DPMs" ...

by ANON (no login)

was to be posted under the post "DPM...RIP" so I c&p it here: "This trend has already begun in Ontario, Canada. The DPMs there agreed to a cap for DPMs being registered to practise in Ontario back in the 1990s. They basically put their profession into the coffin for burial. In 30+ years there won't be anymore DPMs practicing podiatry in Ontario."

Although the health care systems are different, Canadians prefer to pay $1 more in tax to pay for a government run health system rather than $10 more for private health insurance plans to provide "covered" limited health care (in Canada, some people have received $2,000,000+ in health care for no charge -just pay regular income tax), the point of the "MDs..." post was to inform DPMs everywhere what the American trained DPMs agreed to in Ontario.

As for answers, there are no podiatry colleges in Canada. There is a Chiropody Program check it out at http://www.michener.ca/ft/chiropody.php at the internationally recognized Michener Institue of Applied Health Sciences. As far as I know, it is the only place in the world where chiropody is taught didactly and clinically. WOW!

Posted on Nov 13, 2002, 6:58 PM
from IP address 199.212.26.244

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ego problems?

by Anonymous (no login)

Why is it that every 'dr.' seems to have an ego problem? FPs hate FNPs, MDAs hate CRNAs, Orthopods hate DPMs, DPMs hate PTs, MD-Plastic surgeons hate DDS-Oral & Maxillofacial surgeons, MDs feel superior to DOs, MD/DO hate DCs.

The reason is that every 'doc' thinks that they are a gift to medicine and mankind. There are other professionals that are totally capable of what MD/DOs are. FNPs can provide family health care vs. Fam docs, Nurse Anesthetists can provide safe, effective anesthesia, DPMs can effectively (if properly trained) treat trauma, PTs and wound care - lets not get carried away now, DDS can perform jaw surgeries effectively, DOs are complete physicians, DCs can alleviate acute lower back pain, ect.

Get over your ego and get along. Medicine sucks mainly because of MDs ignorance!!!!!!!

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 1:48 AM
from IP address 63.226.69.211

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Lets be fair

by Anonymous (no login)

I don't think it is "every" Dr. It might be more accurate to say "some" Docs in every specialty. And it seems that many are vocal about it (whether they are right or not is another matter.)

In even greater fairness, I doubt this is limited to the medical fields.

What do you think about the PAs that think they are as good as the Docs?, or the CRNA's that think they are?, or the FPs that think they are fully capable of Emergency medicine, or OB/GYN, or whatever? Any of these people could easily get themselves in over their heads in a hurry.

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 11:29 AM
from IP address 63.186.0.156

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hate

by cma (no login)

hate is a pretty strong word.
Actually nps work under an md. My wife who is a nurse says if they are not working with a physician they don't have presription privileges.
So the family practice hires NPs or PAs as warm bodies to see patients and make money.
I don't think the word hate describes the relationship.
MDAs don't hate CRNAs.
Do podiatrists hate PTs? Why would you? You easily outclass them in knowledge and scope. Their only advantage might be access to and experience in the use of various therapy modalities.
I also don't think that the physicians I work with are excessively egocentric.
The best physicians and the best pods and the best so on, are capable of working with healthcare providers as adults.

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 9:21 PM
from IP address 209.183.88.82

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In Search of Evidence

by (no login)

I am a veteran who has a service connected condition of flat feet. The V.A. is required to treat my foot condition and I recently requested that they also cover my knee problems that have evolved since I left the service. My request was initally denied and I was requested to supply additional information if I decide to appeal.

What I am looking for is an 'official' journal article or document that makes a scientific coorelation between flat feet and knee problems.

Can anyone on here point me in the right direction.

Thank you in advance,

Jeff Daly

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 4:26 PM
from IP address 66.214.248.158

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Flat feet

by huh? (no login)

U have a service condition of flat feet? #1 define flat feet? #2 congenital? #3 grenade? #4 r u looking for $ ?

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 5:59 AM
from IP address 68.81.129.93

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Vets want money

by Successful pod and proud of it! (no login)

Veterans want money. I have vets that want letters all the time to try to get some service connected "disability" for innocuous things as insignificant as toenails! I'm a vet! I got seriously injured in a helicopter crash but I have NO disabilty. I do not collect anything nor do I want anything. When I tell these vets that thery think I'm nuts for not getting any money!! I tell them that I think THEY are being CRIMINAL for trying to rip off the government!!!
Now don't get me wrong when a vet has a disability that deserves a payout I support them fully BUT that is very rare!!!!
I'm a pod and proud of it!!!

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 11:20 AM
from IP address 207.88.96.172

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Re: Vets want money

by Anonymous (no login)

I am also a military veteran with a service connected disability. In all fairness you should report your feelings of hostility and negativity to a mental health provider. You have no business treating veterans with that type of attitude. "Not all vets want money." Some us gave blood and guts; many others never made it home. Dwell on that for a while.

Posted on Nov 16, 2002, 10:23 AM
from IP address 158.252.213.181

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Re: Re: Vets want money

by Successful pod and proud of it! (no login)

IF you read my post you would have seen that I am also a vet who was injured!! I am not talking about the DESERVING ones I am talking about the whiners that "think" THE GOVERNMENT OWES THEM SOMETHING!! I gave the specific example of a vet that thinks he deserves disability payments for "fungal toenails" and he doesn't even HAVE qualifying funal toenails!! I treat LOTS of vets who deserve EVERY penny they get AND MORE. I have written about their disabilites to the VA to assist them in getting more. The problem with that is that the word gets around and the whiners come in who0 want somw of the pie and don't deserve it! Its like the people on welfare who drive nice cars and have their hair done and wear lots of jewelry.
Obviously you did not read my note clearly and I suggest you reread it!!!

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 9:12 AM
from IP address 207.88.97.94

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ms3

by Anonymous (no login)

ms3, Why are you so interested in patrolling this forum? You are a medical student not a pod student or anything else that has to do with LE medicine so this is our invitation to get a life. It appears that all you do is put everybody else down except your own breed. You are not welcome here and neither are your comments.

Thank you moderator for posting this msg. Everyone has a right to voice their opinions and opositions.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 4:01 PM
from IP address 63.226.69.211

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"podiatry" is part of our medicine!

by ms3 (no login)

You Said..."Thank you moderator for posting this msg. Everyone has a right to voice their opinions and opositions"...and then you tell me that my opinions are not welcome here? Why do you contradict yourself and what is your fear? And besides..."we" (as if there are sides) are train to be COMPLETE BODY PHYSICIANS, including the lower extremity!!! Go do your research. And before you go off with how much you know about Danis-Weber and Lauge-Hansen classifications and how ignorant MDs and DOs are about them, remember we could do the same thing to you with the liver or pancreas. So get over yourself! Knowledge is free to everyone!
MEDICAL STUDENT thanks moderator!

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 3:54 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.147

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I Respect Your Right To Communicate Your Ideas

by Anonymous (no login)

Is it the messenger or the message that is so irritating? Perhaps by attempting to initiate an intelligent dialogue, you may actually discover that there are some fairly articulate, intelligent podiatrists out here. Rather than trying to denigrate an entire profession, why don't you pose some clinical questions and see what type of response is generated? Unless, of course, you are number one in your class at Harvard Med, and are currently revising one of the classic texts?

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 11:54 PM
from IP address 158.252.241.191

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poor assumption

by Medical Student 3 (no login)

You Know...I sign my name "ms3" and defend the science of podiatry and not the attitude and opinion of a few podiatrists and this person automatically assume that I am a MD or DO student. DPM students are medical students too! Even though this person is right, I am an allopathic medical student...the point is that you need to quit drawing lines and get in the game with everyone else. GET OVER YOURSELF DPM! ms3

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 4:12 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.147

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Multiple Foot Fractures/Needs Surgery/No Insurance

by 2nd Year Out In the REAL WORLD (no login)

I have a situation that I would appreciate some advice on from some of the more experienced practicioners out there. Pt. presents to my office w/ x-rays from an ER (not my hospital) claiming he was told he needs surgery on his broken foot. X-rays were passed to my receptionist who passed them to me all while trying to verify coverage w/ Medicaid. To make a long story short. He has multiple comminuted/displaced lesser met fractures and needs ORIF. Big Surprise. He is no longer covered by Medicaid. I have not seen the patient nor created a doctor/patient relationship. Even if I wanted to do the surgery pro bono, I wouldn't be able to get medical clearance from any primary that isn't going to get paid. I had our receptionist explain that he should call Medicaid ASAP and become effective and we would be glad to treat him. Would appreciate any conducive advice on this situation. Please no smartass remarks. This is the REAL WORLD.

Posted on Nov 7, 2002, 5:33 PM
from IP address 63.185.17.149

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Re: Multiple Foot Fractures/Needs Surgery/No Insurance

by Anonymous (no login)

The hospital has a Clerk who is able to get this guy on Medicaid immediately. Call them.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 12:14 AM
from IP address 67.24.14.232

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Re: Multiple Foot Fractures/Needs Surgery/No Insurance

by Anonymous (no login)

My suggestion would be refer him to the teaching hospital of a nearby medical school. They have the personnel and resources necessary to get this patient covered under emergency Medicaid conditions and have any needed surgery performed. Of course, you need to adequately document this in the medical record to preclude any possibility of a patient abandonment accusation. Please let us know what happens.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 7:17 AM
from IP address 158.252.215.34

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Suggestion

by Anonymous (no login)

I practice full scope and unfortunately have to take ER call at some hospitals. I say unfortunately because when a healthy, insured patient presents to the ER it typically is sent to orthopedists(who sometimes are paid a stipend in addition to what they bill) and when they are uninsured, mentally unstable, or not a great surgical candidate then they are referred to "one of the best foot and ankle surgeons in the country" me.
Even if we do the case for free or under the pretense of getting paid the case consumes huge amounts of time trying to find a hospital to take the case, an anthesiologist and internist to treat the patient etc.
Here is the solution we have worked out: For any ER referral we tell query the patient when the call as to their insurance coverage. If they have none, we are not on the plan, or if there is doubt that they have coverage we verify that coverage BEFORE they arrive. Anyone wihout coverage is told on the phone that require a $300-500 deposit up front before they can be seen and that it will applied to the visit/evaluation. Any other care will require a 50% down payment and they will be responsible for finding a primary care doc and they will make any arrangements with the hospital and anesthesia group.
Usually once this policy is explained they will either follow it or go to another doctor. If they show up without the deposit we do not see them.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 8:53 AM
from IP address 152.163.189.129

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referral

by cma (no login)

send him to a county hospital.
or, send him to a hospital with a podiatry or ortho residency.
any pt who presents at the place i work would receive an ortho consult and go to surgery if that is needed.

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 8:09 AM
from IP address 209.183.88.67

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Physical Therapists ?

by Jace (no login)

I went in to my family doctor to have my grandmothers feet examined. She has been a type 1 diabetic for the last 10 years and now has diabetic ulcers on her feet which need to be cared for by a professional. The family doc told us to see the wound clinic in the city so we did and when we arrived the wound clinic was run and owned by a physical therapist. The PT did all the wound care on her feet which I thought was a joke! Who gave PTs the scope to care for wounds??? They are NOT trained in wound care or are they? Critical opinions needed. Thanks

Posted on Nov 7, 2002, 12:01 PM
from IP address 216.160.236.11

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type 1 diabetic?

by ms 3 (no login)

Are you sure that it's not type 2? It's your grandmother right?

Posted on Nov 7, 2002, 4:32 PM
from IP address 169.147.155.151

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ms 3

by Anonymous (no login)

Yeah, my grandma. Pretty sure, but will take second look.

Posted on Nov 7, 2002, 11:56 PM
from IP address 63.226.69.211

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Re: type 1 diabetic?

by Anonymous (no login)

Approximately 95% of diabetics are Type II, but she may well be a Type I. Either way, she needs to be followed very closely by the only comprehensively trained foot specialist-a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 7:32 AM
from IP address 158.252.215.34

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type 1

by ms3 (no login)

The reason why I asked was that if she was a type 1 diabetic, the onset would not have been 10 yrs ago...since she is his GRANDMA. She would have had it since she was young.
ms3

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 12:07 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.154

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Go do some reading

by Anonymous (no login)

Type 1 diabetes is not neccesarily juvenile onset.

Non-functioning pancreatic beta cells vs. Insulin resistance.

Posted on Nov 8, 2002, 4:32 PM
from IP address 63.186.16.249

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you go do research

by ms3 (no login)

You go do some research. The CURRENT classification of type 2 diabetes is broken down into a)insulin dependent and b)non-insulin dependent DIABETES TYPE 2. Try learning information that are less than 10 yrs old! Or tell the people who teach them to you to go get some CMEs.

Posted on Nov 9, 2002, 3:59 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.147

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You still need to read a bit

by Anonymous (no login)

I would recommend you take a look at the latest version of Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine.

Current terminology uses the classifications Type 1 and Type 2.
Type 1 all have an insulin deficiency. Type 1A have an autoimmune component and beta cell destruction. Type 1B lack the autoimmune markers seeen in 1A and are considered idiopathic. They are also more likely to develop ketosis.

Type 1 diabetes can also be induced.

Type 2 DM is not sub classified into insulin dependant and non insulin dependant.

Type 2 covers a wide variety of disorders, some are specific genetic disorders and others are metabolic faults. They also have varying degrees of insulin resistance, insulin secretion and increased glucose production. Knowing these factors will make a difference when you start thinking about therapy.

there are also some other sub-types of diabetes. gestational diabetes is probably the one that has been recognized as such for the longest. MODY or Maturity Onset Diabetes in the Young is a more recent term. There are 5 specific genetic forms taht ahve been identified. These are similar to the Type 2, with early onset and severe impairment.

Another new term is LADA or Late Autoimmune Diabetes in Adults. This is a slower progressive form of Type 1 diabetes. This sounds like what the earlier post was describing.

Some of us do know a few things. We did do our reading, and continue to do so.

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 6:21 PM
from IP address 63.186.17.15

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Get a Life

by Anonymous (no login)

Excellent response. Unfortunately, the obvious super ego of MSIII probably precludes him from attaining new infornation. I venture to speculate that his peers must love being on rounds with such a genius.

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 11:45 PM
from IP address 158.252.241.191

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my huge ego!

by ms3 (no login)

Yeah, this huge ego has been defending NPs, PAs, and hard working podiatrists from ego maniac DPMs like you for weeks now! Read my other posts...and the response above about the type 1 and 2 DM...you get a life!
MS3

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 9:13 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.123

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ms3 is correct

by cma (no login)

I think ms3 is probably correct on this.
And hopefully he or she looks like a genius on rounds.
The grandmother likely is type2 on insulin, not ketosis prone.
It may not be in your Harrison's, but the classification of Type 2 DM is subclassified into insulin treated(some might use dependent) and non.
Frequently healthcare providers errantly classify all insulin users as type 1.
I suggest you look at your grandmas dose. If she is using more than 25 units a day, then she is probably not insulin dependent, and not type 1.

As Ilook back at the message I'm responding to a see the statement that "type 2 is not subclassified into insulin dependent and noninsulin dependent"
That statement is absurd and if you had any experience treating diabetes you would know that.

Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 7:16 PM
from IP address 209.183.88.100

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Please check that again.

by Anonymous (no login)

As I mentioned to ms3 I do my reading, and I am up to date. I would recommend you check a respectable refeence rather than quote what you think.

My 15th Ed of Harrison's says:

"Two features of the current classification of DM diverge from previous classifications. First the terms insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM) and noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) are obsolete. " And tehn goes on to give an explanation for why, and (you'll have to go read this part for yourself.)

Some of us really do read and stay current. I don't know what they are teaching in the ms3's med school. And I don't know how long it has been since cma read any of this. But you really ought to if you want to go around correcting people. (It doesn't maky you look good when your info isn't right).

Thanks for reading. ;)


Posted on Nov 12, 2002, 4:43 PM
from IP address 65.178.209.93

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i apreciate you copying harrison's for me

by ms3 (no login)

Thanks for opening up Harrison's and copying it verbatim for me. For a second, I thought you "did your readings" and memorized it. But in either case, I won't have to look it up now. I do know that there is a small # of pts with late onset DM type one. I was just betting on the odds of the poster getting the type 1 and 2 messed up is greater than the chance that it is really type 1, that's all. You know, it's kinda like when the pt. come sees you for a bunion and say..."hey doc, I have this huge growth on my foot...what can you do?" GET IT???? gggeezzzz. MS3

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 9:10 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.123

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Re: i apreciate you copying harrison's for me

by Anonymous (no login)

I said that I did my reading, not that I memorized it. To paraphrase Sam Clemens - Never memeorize anything youcan look up.

Just because I quoted a portion of Harrison's doesn't mean you now know what you need to know. Go read it. You might learn something. Your previous CURRENT description is far out of date, and it can have an impact on your patients.

I am glad to see that you are sticking up for PAs, NPs, and whoever else, and I support them as well. Every field has good practitioners and poor practitioners. You ought to strive to be one of the better ones (whatever your field). Reading and keeping up to date will make a huge difference. If you want to make statements, and try to correct people you ought to make sure you are right to begin with or you come across looking like an idiot. DPMs do see a large number of diabetics, so it is in our interest to keep up as well as anyone else.

As far as your later comments, I don't think you come across very well. You might do well to take criticism a little better. I don't think I was condescending or made derogatory comments. I simply brought forward accurate information and offered references. I might as well suggest you could get a life, but I doubt it would make any difference.

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 11:20 PM
from IP address 63.186.17.31

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I'm done with you

by ms3 (no login)

..."I might as well suggest that you could get a life, but I doubt that it would make any difference"...you were actually pretty cool until you made that assinine remark. I'm done here. You know...the "official" classification for burn injuries has changed. It is no longer 1st, 2nd, 3rd degrees. If you are ever on rotations and docs use 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree terms (and they WILL), (instead of full/partial thicknesses), I would suggest that you don't tell them that they are mismanaging their pts. b/c regardless...the treatment is the same. The bottom line is IF the pt needs insulin...you give it to them! Does a type 1 dm needs insulin? Then give it. Does a type 2 insulin dependent dm needs insulin? Then GIVE IT. For you to tell me that the pts' treatment will be affected b/c I don't know the classification (which I do) is wrong. You can have the last word after this. Say whatever you want to say...I am done here! ms3

Posted on Nov 18, 2002, 6:03 PM
from IP address 169.147.155.186

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Re: I'm done with you

by Anonymous (no login)

..."I might as well suggest that you could get a life, but I doubt that it would make any difference"...you were actually pretty cool until you made that assinine remark. I'm done here.

How about backing up a few posts to "my huge ego"?

Yeah, this huge ego has been defending NPs, PAs, and hard working podiatrists from ego maniac DPMs like you for weeks now! Read my other posts...and the response above about the type 1 and 2 DM...you get a life!
MS3

Seems that similar comments made by ms3 are OK, but mine is assinine.

OK, I'll be done here too. Have fun.

Posted on Nov 19, 2002, 6:02 PM
from IP address 63.191.113.183

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reguarding

by ms3 (no login)

...And who said "get a life" first so that my response was "you get a life!"? That's right, you did. But no more retaliations so have fun to you. ms3

Posted on Nov 20, 2002, 1:48 PM
from IP address 204.185.73.98

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Anonymous postings

by Anonymous (no login)

One of the drawbacks to posting without adding my name is that people may attribute things to you that were not yours.

Sorry aobut the misunderstanding ms3. The post just prior to yours there was not mine. I did not include those comments. Sorry that you thought I did.

Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 7:07 PM
from IP address 63.186.32.21

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ms3 is right in practical terms

by DAPMD (no login)

The reason typeI/typeII classification was adopted is that these patients nto only have differing pathophysiology - they respond differently to insulin. Type I's are insulin deficient and always require insulin and benefit by short acting insulin at meal time addded to a baseline of long acting insulin. Type II's may be treated with oral agents but have progressive increasing resistance and most eventually need insulin, but since they are insulin resistant, are more buffered in their needs, often requiring more than 35 units/day and NOT benefitting as much by the very short acting insulins that is presently the basis of type I treatment. Type I with anti -insulin antibodies can require much more than 35 units (viz. 300 units) but most need about this amount and respond very (brittle) quickly to too much insulin or skipping a meal with hypoglycemia. Type II's on the proper diet and dose of insulin seldom become hypoglycemic.
On our hospital medical services we have two different pre-printed order sets; type I emphasing the humalog/lispro at meals, in addition to long acting insulin, and type two with has provision for an oral agent(no metfomin for hospitalized patients) as well as choice of NPH, 70/30 or other long acting accompanied by a.c. and hs coverage with regular. This order set was developed by consensus of more than one hundred endocrinologists, of our medical group of 10,000 MDs serving 9.5 million nationwide.

Posted on Nov 20, 2002, 9:22 AM
from IP address 4.64.232.74

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I don't get the point

by Anonymous (no login)

I don't understand the point of your response.
I fully understand the differences in the types of diabetes, as well as the pathophysiology. Most of what you wrote is correct, but I still don't see what you are headed for.
The differences in Type I and Type II diabetics were further refined and the designations changed to Type 1 and Type 2.
Ms3 said that I was wrong and not keeping current and then goes on to talk about an older classification. You seem to be using the same one. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that it is not current, and does not offer as clear an understanding of the pathophysiology involved as waht the newer system does.
Type 1 diabetics will require insulin, as thy have defects in the pancreatic beta cells and do not prodcue enough (or some even any)insulin. A Type 2 diabetic generally will not benefit from insulin, as they already produce insulin. Through feedback loops they are likely to over-produce insulin. By giving them large doses of insulin some of this insulin resisance can be overcome, but they would more effectivly be treated with other agents. In many cases they need multiple agents.

If an attending wants to talk about Type I and Type II diabetics, we can do that, though that terminology is no longer current. Type 1 and Type 2 are.

I still don't follow the point of your comments.

Posted on Nov 20, 2002, 8:45 PM
from IP address 63.186.2.50

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Not An Epidemic?

by Anonymous (no login)

The Cost of Diabetes

Fact Sheet N° 236
Revised September 2002

As the number of people with diabetes grows worldwide, the disease takes an ever-increasing proportion of national health care budgets. Without primary prevention, the diabetes epidemic will continue to grow. Even worse, diabetes is projected to become one of the world’s main disablers and killers within the next twenty-five years. Immediate action is needed to stem the tide of diabetes and to introduce cost-effective treatment strategies to reverse this trend.

Diabetes: the size of the problem

A diabetes epidemic is underway. An estimated 30 million people world-wide had diabetes in 1985. By 1995, this number had shot up to 135 million. The latest WHO estimate (for the number of people with diabetes, world-wide, in 2000) is 177 million. This will increase to at least 300 million by 2025. The number of deaths attributed to diabetes was previously estimated at just over 800,000. However, it has long been known that the number of deaths related to diabetes is considerably underestimated. A more plausible figure is likely to be around 4 million deaths per year related to the presence of the disorder. This is about 9% of the global total. Many of these diabetes related deaths are from cardiovascular complications. Most of them are premature deaths when the people concerned are economically contributing to society. This situation is increasingly outstretching the health-care resources devoted to diabetes.

For WHO and the International Diabetes Federation (IDF), sponsors of World Diabetes Day, this increase can and must be prevented with the right measures.

What are the costs of diabetes?


Because of its chronic nature, the severity of its complications and the means required to control them, diabetes is a costly disease, not only for the affected individual and his/her family, but also for the health authorities.


Studies in India estimate that, for a low-income Indian family with an adult with diabetes, as much as 25% of family income may be devoted to diabetes care. For families in the USA with a child who has diabetes, the corresponding figure is 10%.


The total health care costs of a person with diabetes in the USA are between twice and three times those for people without the condition. It was calculated, for example, that the cost of treating diabetes in the USA in 1997 was US$ 44 billion.


In WHO’s Western Pacific region a recent analysis of health care expenditure has shown that: 16% of hospital expenditure was on people with diabetes. In the Republic of the Marshall Islands, this figure was 25%. 20% of “offshore expenditure” on health by Fiji was on diabetes related complications – instances where facilities for care were not available in Fiji, so patients had to travel elsewhere. These represent considerable sums for countries who can ill afford such massive expenditure on preventable conditions. The costs of diabetes affect everyone, everywhere, but they are not only a financial problem. Intangible costs (pain, anxiety, inconvenience and generally lower quality of life etc.) also have great impact on the lives of patients and their families and are the most difficult to quantify.


The costs of diabetes affect everyone, everywhere, but they are not only a financial problem. Intangible costs (pain, anxiety, inconvenience and generally lower quality of life etc.) also have great impact on the lives of patients and their families and are the most difficult to quantify.



Direct costs:


Direct costs to individuals and their families include medical care, drugs, insulin and other supplies. Patients may also have to bear other personal costs, such as increased payments for health, life and automobile insurance.


Direct costs to the healthcare sector include hospital services, physician services, lab tests and the daily management of diabetes – which includes availability of products such as insulin, syringes, oral hypoglycaemic agents and blood-testing equipment. Costs range from relatively low-cost items, such as primary-care consultations and hospital outpatient episodes, to very high-cost items, such as long hospital inpatient stays for the treatment of complications.


Recent cost estimates, denied by similar methods to that quoted above for the USA, include those for Brazil (US$ 3.9 billion), Argentina (US$ 0.8 billion) and Mexico (US$ 2.0 billion). Each of these is an annual figure and is rising as diabetes prevalence increases. Overall, direct health care costs of diabetes range from 2.5% to 15% annual health care budgets, depending on local diabetes prevalence and the sophistication of the treatment available.


For most countries, the largest single item of diabetes expenditure is hospital admissions for the treatment of long-term complications, such as heart disease and stroke, kidney failure and foot problems. Many of those are potentially preventable given prompt diagnosis of diabetes, effective patient and professional education and comprehensive long term care.



Costs of lost production (“indirect costs”)


A number of diabetes patients may not be able to continue working or work as effectively as they could before the onset of their condition.


Sickness, absence, disability, premature retirement or premature mortality can cause loss of productivity.


Estimating the cost to society of this loss of productivity is not easy. However, in many cases where estimates have been made, these costs of lost production may be as great or even greater than direct health care costs. For example, the US estimate of direct costs of US$ 44 billion mentioned above needs to be set against an estimated US$ 54 billion of loss of productivity during the same year (1997). Combining the cost estimates for 25 Latin American countries suggests that costs of lost production may be as much as five times the direct health care cost. This may be because there is limited access to high quality care with, consequently, a high incidence of complications, disability and premature mortality. Families too, of course, suffer loss of earnings as a result of diabetes and its consequences.



Intangible costs


Pain, anxiety, inconvenience and other factors which decrease quality of life are intangible costs, which are just as heavy. Some activities may have to be foregone in favour of treatment, discrimination may be experienced in the workplace, obtaining jobs may be more difficult, and professional life may be shortened because of complications leading to early disability and even death.


Personal relationships, leisure and mobility can also be negatively influenced. Diabetes treatment, particularly insulin injection and self-monitoring, can be time-consuming, inconvenient and uncomfortable.



Prevention and diabetes:

Effective prevention also means more cost-effective healthcare. This may be the prevention of the onset of diabetes itself (primary prevention) or the prevention of its immediate and longer-term consequences (secondary prevention).


Primary prevention protects susceptible individuals from developing diabetes. It has an impact by reducing or delaying both the need for diabetes care and the need to treat diabetes complications. Reliable examples of this measure come from studies undertaken among susceptible groups in China. Lifestyle modifications (appropriate diet and increased physical activity and a consequent reduction of weight), supported by a continuous education programme, were used to achieve a reduction of almost two-thirds in the progression to diabetes over a six-year period. This type of measure is not easy, but is likely to be cost effective if it can be implemented on a population scale. It should be considered particularly in the poorest regions of the world where resources are severely limited. Similar results have also been achieved recently in Finland and the USA.


Such preventive measures will have benefits above and beyond diabetes since improvements in diet and day-to-day physical activity will reduce obesity, cardiovascular disease and some cancers.



Secondary prevention includes early detection, prevention and treatment. Appropriate action taken at the right time is beneficial in terms of quality of life, and is cost-effective, especially if it can prevent hospital admission.

Secondary prevention measures:


The treatment of high blood pressure and raised blood lipids, as well as the control of blood glucose levels, can substantially reduce the risk of developing complications and slow their progression in all types of diabetes.


Another cost-saving strategy is the prevention of foot ulceration and amputation. Effective foot-care reduces both the frequency and length of hospital stays and the incidence of amputation in diabetes patients by as much as 50%.


Screening and early treatment for retinopathy is also very cost-effective, given the devastating direct, indirect and intangible costs of blindness.


Screening for protein in urine is another valid preventive measure to prevent or slow down the inevitable progression to kidney failure. Furthermore, there is evidence that screening for traces of protein is cost saving, as it allows even earlier intervention in the natural course of kidney disease.


Measures to reduce the consumption of tobacco will also assist in the management of diabetes. Cigarette smoking has been found to be associated with poor control of blood glucose and it is also strongly causally related to hypertension and heart disease in people with diabetes as well as those without.



WHO and IDF are committed to working for access to high quality health care for people with diabetes wherever they live and for primary prevention to reduce the impact of diabetes and its complications in the future.













For more information contact:


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Telephone: (+41 22) 791 2222
Email: mediaenquiries@who.int


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Posted on Nov 11, 2002, 4:12 PM
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all that is true

by ms3 (no login)

Nice cut and paste, and all that is true...but DM is not an epidemic...but that does not say that it is not a HUGE problem in our society. The term epidemic is reserve to describe a SUDDEN (ie..2 months), unexpected,rapid rise in a disease that is usually not part of or is ENDEMIC to a society. For example...there are millions of cases of the common cold, more than DM...but it is not an epidemic. Mere # of cases does not make it an epidemic. IF we did not slow down the spread of the West Nile Virus and it suddenly spread like wildfire...then that is an EPIDEMIC. THe Bubonic plague was an EPIDEMIC b/c it spread so fast in a short period of time.

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 9:25 PM
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Re: all that is true

by Anonymous (no login)

How about an actual citation thta DM does not meet the criteria of an epidemic? Other then your own copy of "MS3'" complete and tiatl knowledge of everything?

Posted on Nov 16, 2002, 10:30 AM
from IP address 158.252.213.181

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Chew Carefully!!

by Anonymous (no login)

Obesity Taking Toll on American Health
New York Times Syndicate

By Patricia Guthrie

Tuesday, October 22, 2002


We're digging our graves with every bite. And we don't care.

Too much eating and too little exercise have led to one of the deadliest epidemics in modern times, public health officials say - each year killing 300,000 Americans prematurely.

Despite warnings, recommendations and dire predictions, America's appetite doesn't quit. Why?

Boston science writer Ellen Ruppel Shell offers some provocative answers to that question in her new book ``The Hungry Gene: The Science of Fat and the Future of Thin'' (Atlantic Monthly Press, $25). One reason: The nation's food and snack industry giants spend billions each year pitching processed and fat-laden foods to Americans, while public health campaigns spend a fraction of that to promote healthier diets.

And when it comes to American diets, money talks.

Shell's book explores obesity both nationally and globally. She looks at it through the lens of history, science, economics and politics while interweaving its effects on individuals, cultures and countries. Most important, she addresses the nature-or-nurture question.

It's both, says Shell. And it's complicated.

Genetics, rushed lifestyles, technology, an abundance of convenience foods, incessant advertising and other environmental and behavioral influences have merged to the point of overload - both mental and physical.

``There is no such thing as an ``There is no such thing as an obese personality or being orally fixated,'' Shell said from her Boston University office. ``These are myths. The reality is we have 300-pound 14-year-olds going to McDonald's and the clerk still asks him, `Want to supersize it?'''

The number of Americans dying too soon every year from diseases directly linked to being overweight and sedentary will soon surpass tobacco-related deaths, predicts the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Too much weight can trigger diabetes, heart disease, stroke and certain cancers. Arthritis and other disabilities can also develop.

Some disturbing trends:

Overweight children are 20 percent to 30 percent heavier than they were 10 years ago. They are increasingly developing Type 2 diabetes - once called adult-onset diabetes - and risking complications such as blindness, nerve damage, kidney failure and lower-leg amputations.

Overall, the food industry spends $30 billion on advertising each year. The federal government, on the other hand, spends about $10 million telling us to eat more fruits and vegetables, get off the couch, walk more and start every day with a sensible breakfast.

Pam Wilson, with the cardiovascular community health office of Georgia's Public Health Division, knows just how tough it is to compete against ``Big Food.''

``The whole situation is frustrating because we're so limited in funds in public health,'' Wilson said. ``If we had the dollars of the advertising machine of the hamburger joints, we could compete with getting our message out.''

Television's influence on children is particularly troubling to health workers. ``The practice of targeting food ads to small children is criminal as far as I'm concerned,'' Wilson said.

Food industry leaders say it is simplistic to suggest they are to blame for the nation's weight problems.

National Restaurant Association spokeswoman Katharine Kim said she hadn't yet seen Shell's book but offered her trade industry's perspective on its role in America's weight problem.

``Restaurants are part of the solution, too,'' Kim said. ``We provide a wide variety of options for consumers to choose from. To focus on the food only is naive and simplistic. I think there's a level of personal responsibility that needs to be addressed. Most importantly is to look at physical activity. There's an equation of energy in and energy out that can't be ignored.''

Recently, federal officials met with representatives of the major restaurant and fast food distributors to discuss toning down the targeting of kids. And some food companies, such as McDonald's and Frito-Lay, have responded to pressure to reduce the fat in some of their products. They're also launching community efforts, such as PepsiCo's Get Active, Stay Active program, and McDonald's has just added yogurt and sweetened fruit to its menu.

Such developments encourage Dr. William Dietz, who heads the CDC's nutrition and physical activity department. ``Finally, after three decades of frustration, we're at a new place today,'' he said. ``The articles on obesity in the last couple of years have gone up dramatically. And in my travels around the country, I hear people really struggling with how they can come to terms with losing weight.''

It was Dietz' landmark 1985 Harvard study that conclusively linked obesity in children to hours spent in front of the television.

In Shell's book, the convergence of mass marketing of food and genetic influences is thoroughly explored. She visits laboratories where scientists continue to unravel the constellation of genes (about 200) thought to be involved in hunger, appetite and the feeling of fullness. Interrupting this pathway from the brain to the stomach is the ultimate goal of pharmaceutical companies, which stand to make billions of dollars off such a successful and safe drug.

Changes in family life and how much we move our bodies are a big part of the picture.

Thirty years ago, we spent more than two hours preparing dinner each night. Now Americans spend an average of 15 minutes.

Every week, it seems, another great food deal screams out.

Cinnamon sticks with pizza orders. Turning Pepsi blue. A $25 million advertising campaign just to launch a new Milky Way.

In the past few months, the issue of where personal responsibility fits into the obesity epidemic was raised by obese plaintiffs who filed lawsuits against fast food companies, seeking recovery of medical costs. Industry representatives called the pending suits frivolous and defended their products, calling them nutritious and not addictive like cigarettes.

Shell says the relentless exposure to food is messing with our minds and bodies in more ways than one. We may think we want that Death by Chocolate Cheesecake the waiter swirls in our face, but it's really our stomach acting up. ``We're not eating the kinds of foods that our brains can accommodate,'' Shell said. ``We were not designed to eat piles and piles of sweetened foods, high-fat foods and no fiber.''

Instead, human bodies are built to expect feast or famine situations, to store fat for leaner times. Combine that with sedentary lifestyles, the constant messages to eat, eat, eat and our car-to-office-to-TV routines, and the whys behind the bulging of America start to make sense.

``If people can really understand this, they'll see the need to change behaviors, because we cannot change our genes,'' Shell said. ``And just because we are thin, that doesn't mean our neighbor has that same ability.''

At an Atlanta hotel last year, Shell sat in on a Food and Beverage Marketing national conference. Talk revolved around the hot flavor/color of the moment for kids (blue/ raspberry) and the hundreds of different packaging schemes. One fast food representative admitted that 80 percent of marketing efforts were directed at kids, 20 percent at moms.

``The food industry's job is not to sell simple nourishment; we have too much food,'' Shell says. ``Its job is to sell sizzle long after we have had our fill of steaks.''


-----

(The Cox web site is at http://www.coxnews.com )



c.2002 Cox News Service


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Posted on Nov 16, 2002, 10:38 AM
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she is a type 1

by Anonymous (no login)

she is a type 1 diabetic and has been for about 10 years. no mistake

Posted on Nov 10, 2002, 8:21 PM
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ok...just making sure

by ms1 (no login)

I believe you. I was just making sure because the chance that an older person developing dm type 1 w/o any sort of trauma to the pancreas is quite rare...especially that is was your grandma. I hope she is doing well... MS3

Posted on Nov 14, 2002, 9:28 PM
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Read this Forum. We discussed this.

by Anonymous (no login)

This Forum had someone talk about the fact that Physical Therapists have successfully competed with the foot doctors for the wounds. They have sharp debridement and surgical oks. All were done while the APMA, state