I may take some heat for this 'unrelated to hair' post but I had already done it once several months ago when the Canadian dollar went above the US dollar for the first time in 30 years (!) and so I will do it again for a 2nd time hehe
Something happened in the early 90's and somehow it still seems so fresh in my memory like if it wasn't that long ago: the price of a barrel of oil on the world market dipped below $10 !! Wow, ten bucks! All the headlines were screaming: "oil is a dead commodity".
Here we are in 2008 and only a few months ago, a barrel of oil surpassed the unimaginable threshold, a level that nobody thought would be possible: $100 !!!
Today (May 21st) it spiked above $134. So less than $10 in the early 90's and $134 today. It's been records after records since several months.
The velocity of this unrelentless advance of 'oil' which is a commodity that always end up affecting everything around us is not only unbelievable but at the same time spectacular and somewhat scary.
China (one quarter of the world population) is in the early process of a great awakening 'consuming wise' and no matter how deep we try to analyze what's happening we almost always end up with the same conclusion: they are picking up all the basic commodities (oil, foods, etc..) they can get their hands on worldwide. They buy what they haven't been able to buy for so long and we can start to understand what will follow: chinese people are more and more informed, they have more and more money and they gain confidence daily as to how much they deserve for the work they are doing.
These kinds of trends (awakening of a country) can last much longer than we can imagine and since we face the most populated country of our world, I suspect that we will all feel the effects in our every day life and it has already started.
If you have read this far, you now realize that this may also have something to do with hair afterall since our factory is in China but I thought I wouldn't mention it at the beginning so that only the patient and interested readers will notice... but the biggest challenge we will be facing in the months and years to come is the price of energy and foods.
We are stepping into a new era and whether we like it or not, we will have to deal with it. We have reached the point of no return.
whats going to happen is that they are going to bleed the market of every last drop of oil, then they will start slowly introducing new mediums of energy into the market. They have a lot of alternatives from condensed air power, electrical, solar, hydrogen, very much improved batteries made from viruses.
You dont even need gas to run the new type of hybrids being developed. It has a generator on the front set of wheels which powers the rear electrical motor. you lose some efficiency when you transfer energy so the lost energy will be made up for with a very powerful new type of battery which can be charged overnight or something. I forget t he technical details.
I think whats changing the most is that America is run by ever growing, global corporations. slowly competition within industries will fade.. prices will become set, and the economy will be in a sort of stagnation.
han's nice true stuff..china's a power house...but on us money count the days the dollar will bounch back as are president is a total nut case...he should have been impeached...about hair. many nice factorys are in oi also..my wife worked at a factory with 600 woman who makes amys hair or cyber hair..exported to minn. near john...so no worry us bald guys will have options ,, and the high pay thier a good job u got to fight 4 is $300 month..thats a boss
bob/philly
china will use up so many world wide resorces
The dollar being low is to help US exports. We have had such an imbalance between our import/export ratio. The dollar dropping will help correct this as countries will find it cheaper to import products from us.
As long as China has a centralized economy, its citizens will never acheive great wealth. Ask any of the millions of Chinese immigrants why they came to the U.S. and I'm sure they'll tell you that they came here to achieve a standard of living they could never achieve in China. As far as the weak dollar is concerned, nobody ever seems to mention the advantages--cheaper U.S. goods abroad and increased foreign investment in the U.S., buttressing the acquisition of new capital by U.S. companies. These things are cyclical, but we Americans love to panic about everything. Bottom line is that even lower-middle class Americans have a much higher standard of living than the vast majority of the world's population, and that ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Ah yours was better stated. I agree with you. People really have no clue how bad things really are out there. Every middle class person i know has 3 flat screen TVs and 3 cars. People here are very big into materialism and always buying the latest toys. But I do think that thinks will change sooner or later. we are seeing glimpses of it, but i honestly feel that the greed that helped capitalism thrive will also end up being its downfall.
I have to agree with marx when he says capitalism has a progression towards socialism.
Many people are prisoners of what I call the matrix, ie a system that's trying to make you believe that, in order to be happy and to be somebody, you need this and that. You need a house, or a big appartment, a big family, a big car, a big job, etc. How foolish!
And the sadest part is that all those people who believe that nonsense, instead of trying to find their real mission on earth and follow their passions (which isn't always easy of course), will try to fit into the social mold, in order to avoid judgement and to get the material life that they think will make them happy!
No suprise there are so many sad and unhappy people in our society (even among the richest ones). Everybody should follow their dreams, and try as much as they can to become who they really are in the inside, even if it means living a simpler life a little longer.
None of our material belongings will follow us in the afterlife, not even our hair. The only thing we bring with us is who we are, and it's so not what we possess that defines who we are.
i only have 2 cars and 1 flat screen lcd.....does giant dlp count???? but really i just came back from china and pi . my wife is from pi....man they are so poor...BUT MANY ARE SO HAPPY...lets see if you can be happy and lack money med coverage, and food..the avg nurse is pi makes $50 week... but china will need more products ..oil. wheat soybaeans...we all in trouble??we worry about hair haha.
bob/philly
Here in Australia,
Inflationary pressures and outrageous banking procedures are hitting home owners like me quite hard. My wife and I (and 3 kids) are in the process of selling our home as I type.
Starting a couple of years ago, we initiated 'make or bake' gifts at christmas time. At least one gift (and usually the major one) must be homemade or baked. Although it's time consuming, it's wonderful. My eldest daughter wrote me book of funny limericks to take to work and read when "you're stressed dad", my wife made me a beautiful quilt with scenes from our life together and I made a bench garden seat for her. Now, Christmas days are spent talking about why we made the gift, how we made the gift and hearing how much it is appreciated, I believe this is a gift we a giving our 3 children - palpable evidence to the old axiom "it's the thought that counts", and consumerism is not the be-all and end-all.
Regards,
Al.
Here in Australia,
Inflationary pressures and outrageous banking procedures are hitting home owners like me quite hard. My wife and I (and 3 kids) are in the process of selling our home as I type.
Starting a couple of years ago, we initiated 'make or bake' gifts at christmas time. At least one gift (and usually the major one) must be homemade or baked. Although it's time consuming, it's wonderful. My eldest daughter wrote me book of funny limericks to take to work and read when "you're stressed dad", my wife made me a beautiful quilt with scenes from our life together and I made a bench garden seat for her. Now, Christmas days are spent talking about why we made the gift, how we made the gift and hearing how much it is appreciated, I believe this is a gift we a giving our 3 children - palpable evidence to the old axiom "it's the thought that counts", and consumerism is not the be-all and end-all.
Regards,
Al.
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Re: "" China ""
May 26 2008, 3:56 AM
Rant to follow, check out now if you are sensitive.
BA/Mike/John/Debbie practice fair business and are NOT corporate "who-ahs".
IMO when we in the U.S. quit believing the idiot box then things will improve. E.g. unions are good for by far the majority of us, but many in the U.S. do not want to join them. This, despite the fact that corporate heads are in effect have a union called the 'good ole boys' network. Corporate heads all have written contracts and that is all that a union contract is. When we Americans (in mass) rediscover unions and cynicism for corporations then things will get better again.
Bottom line is one gets one what one asks for, e.g. keep voting for those who represent the corporations, then the corporations and their heads will do well. Instead of worrying about nonsense like the made-up cultural wars, getting back to the basics, like a decent wage for ALL as a goal and things will get better. Everyone does better except those at the very top who are doing well already.
The fact that O'Bama will win gives America a chance at least. 'Free trade' is just another word for 'free labor'. If there is fair trade between the U.S. and the rest of the world the U.S. will do fine, because when push comes to shove China, India and the rest of the so-called 'high growth' areas are only that way, because of cheap labor. This will make things like wigs more expensive of course, but then you will have a decent job to be able to pay for it and those in China will have t/b paid more, too.
Like wig-wearing many make it more complicated than it is. The greed problem and unregulated corporate greed are always there. The U.S. has solved this before, the last time in the 1930-1950s. Capitalism/business works, but it has t/b well-regulated t/b fair. Then we got stupid and lazy, voting against our own interests for idiots like Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. My generation's fault.
I think that waiting for certain politicians to get elected, and believing that once in office they will "wave a magic wand" and make your life instantly better is a waste of time. Only YOU can improve your lot in life, not a bunch of suits in Washington (who, by the way are every bit the "good ole boy" network that CEO's are). I think too many people actually believe everything these candidates say. I could give less than a damn which of these characters wins the popularity cont-, i mean, election in November. My fate is in my hands, and if gov't officials change a few rules and regulations here and there, then I'll just have to adapt. After all, in nature, the species that survive are the ones with the ability to adapt to different circumstances and change their "strategies" accordingly.
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Re: "" China ""
May 26 2008, 6:16 PM
Noone said that certain politicians can invoke change by themselves, that was not the point. The only YOU can improve your life canard is just that, it is a bit more complicated than that. It is not the 'law of the jungle' your fate is not entirely in your hands and we are not wild animals to treat others as simply 'prey' IMO. If the system is skewed against you then you will be hosed, how hard the hosing depending on where in the system you and your family are relative to the hosers. Can you get by and adapt? Sure, the slaves did in the U.S. for 300 years or so, but that is no way for humans to live, hence the very reason for the U.S., to try and make things better for most.
If you think that all politicians are equal compare the bad economies for most under Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. w/those of more responsible presidents, e.g. a Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy or even the best republican of the 20th century - Clinton. The difference is not small, the Reagan and Bush crews actually try to wreck government, the others try to do s/t a bit decent. You can be a rugged individualist as much as you want and say that you will be fine, however the facts of the past show clearly that the slime can be cleaned up and w/o loads of change which leads to s/t better for all, including those who think that they get by on their very own.
The tone is set from the top. Look at the tone of this forum set by BA. Imagine having to learn wig-wearing w/o this forum, or a forum that only allowed Farrel-friendly posts. Sure you can adapt, but it is much better for all to have a civilized common area on the created by government internet. An internet that would have never come into being if the policies of the current U.S. government were then in force.
To me, it's the same old propaganda. The Dems tell people (esp the middle and lower class) "unless you vote for us and put us in charge, then you have no chance of succeeding, and may as well just give up on yourselves." The Repubs tell people "unless you vote for us and put us in charge, then you'll all be killed by terrorists." We as Americans are given two choices on how to think--"conservative" or "liberal", with each camp demonizing the other. "Independent" candidates are not welcome at the dance. Just ask Nader, Paul, LaRoche, Ventura, etc. Even Kucinich (sp?) has been repeatedly shunned by his own party,because, in my opinion, he's not "marketable." I don't share all of his views, but I believe that his presidential aspirations are truly based on a desire to improve his country, not on an attempt to boost his ego. Clinton, McCain, Obama...Can't say the same for them.
Yes indeed (Xeon) a weaker currency can help the 'exports' of a country but only to a point. However, the current historical low level of the US currency is now embarassing and its reasons are also beyond economics and the image and credibility of the US throughout the word could be part of it. The US Fed will start talking up their currency soon and for several weeks now there have been rumours around the forex trading desks that they may even 'intervene' by buying it up but I have doubts about it because it's risky to do so.
My pesonal opinion is that no matter who will be their next president, if he or she could spend some time listening and analyzing the perception that the world has of the US, it could produce some positive outcomes.
Suddzy, you bring up an interesting point about the survival of the species and it can also be applied to the countries: only the fittest has now the stronger currencies and the challenges that we will be facing more and more are that all the goodies (natural and man made) available on earth will now have to be split among many many more people than before. As most countries will compete for basic foods and energy, the adjustments will be painful but I have confidence in humanity and as we step into a new paradigm we should find our ways to manage as long as we also get ready to change some of our values.
I got off on some tangents, but my basic point is...each of us is only on this Earth for a short time. Try to enjoy that time and make the best of it. In the end, our species will be long gone and all of our disagreements will be meaningless. As George Carlin said, "the planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas." Rich, poor, black, white, etc., etc., etc...we're all gonna be gone someday and none of it will ever really matter.
I love how presidents sometimes get blamed or rewarded for the economic state of the country during their reign. People dont realize that the problems we face now are not all from Bush, but things set in motion before he even came into office.
I think most of the world has thought of the United States as a child. Our history is very short compared to most other countries. We are the babies of the world, yet we have had more success and development in such a short period of time, that im sure other countries almost have an animosity towards us because of that.
The united states isnt perfect. We do the wrong things sometimes. WE are governed by profits and corporations. Overly liberal in some areas, and overly conservative in others. But the fact of the matter is, the rest of the world isnt any better. IN fact, they can be a lot worse. Look what other countries have done when they had or were trying to have absolute power. The Romans, England, Germany. etc.
and one last thing. all this **** about iraq and the middle east. The entire world has been playing games in this region, not just the US. In fact, many countries are angry about it NOT because of a concern about morality. . But because the US is taking away the cookie jar, "black market" that so many countries had their hands in.
It's always about perspective - get yourself to the proper range, and you can take it all in. Or, to draw an analogy to my fighting background, change up the angles, because it's all about angles that bring access/leverage.
First, it's important to note that ever since we've been civilized, we've gravitated towards a caste system. The simplest being the haves vs. the have nots, the controllers vs. the controlled. The whole idea of a class in the middle, as a vocal step up from the low to challenge the upper, is a relatively recent phenomenon. And since it came about, the idea of those at the top is to destroy it.
Fast forward to the American experiment: ask yourself why there are only two parties vying for the “prize” every time out? Why a “war chest” of campaign funds always trumps a populist’s chances? How a country built on world leading discovery & innovations has stayed married to a 19th century energy infrastructure?
$133/barrel crude is an artificial construct , that ties to America being the most addicted (with doctor scripted Pharmaceuticals) nation on the planet, that ties to America having the highest percentage of it’s citizenry incarcerated per capita as well as having more folks in the pokey than any other country on the planet, that ties to real wages for most going backwards while the top 5% own more of the country than the bottom 50%, that ties to “socialized medicine” being a boogey man/bad thing to run from while we further cement SOCIALIZED CAPITALISM (whereby we prop up crappy industries that SHOULD go out of business, so that more efficient ones take their place) as our priority.
It’s all about crowd control. Chinese consumers want to be more American. American powers behind the parties want us to be more controlled like the Chinese.
I think the fenced of enclosures called “Free Speech Zones” during last elections kind of broke the camels back for me.
good points hans . but i will give it a shot the bobby philly way...the usa can pull thur this and be a world leader again. the problem stems from many things trade policy's, world police...but one of the big reasons usa is in trouble is cheap money. everyone could borrow for a loan no matter what...too much cheap money..too many ceo getting paid 12 million a year while the companys in bankrupty...fair trade to japan is a joke ...we built cars like ****..they deserve to be out of business. they had many years to correct this.. all our big companys move to poor contries....BUT I WILL SAY THIS ..WHY IS EVERYONE COMING HERE DAILY TO START A NEW FRESH LIFE..reason land of opputunity..try that in canada. english italy . japn..never happen..you can still arrive in usa broke and make it big..i dont know of any other place in the world that can be done....
and we help out the whole world with big bucks????????and they never repay
my 2 cents...if the country gets behind this new president like never before..we have a good chance
The issues brought up arent really a UNITED STATES THING. its a human thing. It doesn't matter the country in my opinion. People with money and power will always want more. There will always be a sect of any country thats taken advantage of, and those in power will not want to lose power.
But i think the united states has a lot of the world economy by its balls. so when we go down. We usually bring everyone down with us
i not a politic's guy but good point. what if the us goes broke and buys no jap or china products...they both will crash..wont happen but what if
bob/p
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
May 31 2008, 2:18 AM
The first real middle class came about after the black death in Europe in the Middle Ages. That middle class helped lead to the end of the Middle Ages. It is not that recent. Basically, about one third of Europe died, and that meant labor was in short supply which needed t/b paid well and could not be easily exploited.
Labor unions in the U.S. and elsewhere led to the most recent middle class which helped most climb out of poverty. Not often taught in U.S. history is the prevalent malnutrition and actual starvation in the U.S. before mass union movements' success. Nowadays, after the intentional dumbing down of Americans started during Reagan many believe unions are a problem. If one looks when and where unions are strong, most people live better.
Even w/o actual unions 'organizing' works, e.g. BA organized a wig site that benefits all. His business model was/is considered stupid by most 'experts' in the wig business and we all benefit from the results of his 'stupid' model.
Despite our U.S. mantra, most humans are better off in a community than as rugged individualists.
max one problem is industry of the usa . lost ground by lack of tax breaks...companys sending work to other companys ..gm assembled in mexico...ceo's making too much money..
3 safe business to have in usa now
funeral home everone will dye sooner or later
food business every eats
medical feild all need.
3 simple steps
bob/p
"Intentional dumbing down during the Reagan years?" Did he slip something into the water supply to brainwash us all? Has there been any event in the last 28 years that wasn't the fault of Reagan or Bush? I agree, we are far too stupid and incompetent to make our own decisions and run our own lives. And if we are too stupid to consistently vote in only democrats, let's just outlaw voting (I've already done my part on this one)! Plus, it can be pretty stressfull trying to decide on a career path. Solution--The gov't can make it easier on me by telling me what to do, which union to join, and how much money I'm allowed to make! Then, after we imprison the wealthy (we all know by now that rich people are evil), the gov't can confiscate their property and distribute it amongst those they deem "worthy." Lenin and Lennon would be so proud! If it's good enough for Cuba, then, damnit, it's good enough me for me!
Unions had a good cause, but then again so did the italian mafia when it started out. I believe most companies, organizations or groups a lot of times have humble beginnings. But once they grow and get larger.. things change. even with the unions.
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
June 1 2008, 5:00 PM
Bobby,
Well, IMO companies should NOT get tax breaks that neither you nor I get. Companies already use most of the 'commons' (e.g. roads, post office, courts, the internet, resources etc.) why should they not pay for them relative to their usage of them? What is today called 'free trade' is really 'free labor'. In my profession our politicians allow H1B and L-visas for so-called hard to find skills and it really is for lower-paid foreign workers to work here. There are just about as many unemployed Americans with the same or better skills and BTW Americans cannot legally work in most of those very same countries from where the visa holders come. Unionized employees w/written contracts level the playing field somewhat.
Suds,
Reagan's times started the 'dumbing down' by cutting funds for schools, thereby weakening schools and reducing what is taught in them. When I go to schools now and listen to what they are NOT being taught regarding our own U.S. history it is sad. E.g. I was drafted and served during Vietnam and my nephew learns in school that the U.S. did not lose that war, but that victory was somehow stolen via protests at home. That is ridiculous and propaganda, I remind him that I was in the Army then and remember it very well, that many of the protests against the war were IN the Army, and also that Saigon is no longer called that. My nephew received no driver education classes nor extra-curricular activities (you know social graces kind of things) that my generation received. These were gutted under the guise of 'fiscal responsibility' during 20 of the last 28 years under Reagan/Bush Sr./Bush Jr. while simultaneously allowing the military and war profiteers to line up at the trough w/their gluttony.
Your obvious sarcasm aside, if you think the [re]publicans do a good job, fine keep voting for them. IMO unless you make 300K/year and above you are voting against your own interests, which is of course your right.
If you want to believe that laissez-faire works and that our current U.S. system is not a ponzi scheme for the already well-born and well-connected, again fine, but I do not buy that. Unions were a counter balance to a loaded system and like it or not raised living standards for most. We are still benefiting from most of the reforms won by them, e.g. 40 hour work week (37 in most of Europe), no child labor, labor contracts, etc. We do not teach that in our schools much and on the boob tube every day we have 'business news', but when was the last time you watched the daily 'labor news'?
Of course there are union abuses, but do any of them match the scale of an Enron or WorldCom in business or lying the U.S. into war like Bush Jr. in politics? Just as we do not throw out the entire business system nor dismantle our system of government because of them all unions should not get trashed as corrupt because of a Hoffa or other corrupt people.
Life of course being ironic and the exposure of hypocrisy that it is the other day I was talking to my wife about the cool and long-lasting union shoes that I was wearing. She said yeah they fit in real well with my non-union 'made in China' wig.
Maxx, glad you liked the sarcasm! As far as "keep voting in Republicans," I should have mentioned I'm not even registered to vote. And as a single guy with no kids who never plans on having any, schools and whatnot aren't something I'm too concerned with. Admittedly, I am quite self-centered and focused on my own goals and well-being than I am on the ultimate fate of humanity. I feel no shame about that, but certainly understand if some folks don't really care for my outlook. Put another way, guys like me are the reason the world needs guys like you!
"Life is not that complicated. You get up, you go to work, you eat three meals, you take one good s#!t, then you go back to bed. What's the f$#%^n' mystery?"
-G. Carlin
This is not necessarily my opinion. I dont like arguing politics. but some believe that our good economic times was an after product of some of the things Reagan did. and our current bad times is an after effect of clintons time.
sometimes cause and effect with economics happens decades after actions
This is a totally off-topic post so I figure all is fair politics, sarcasm etc.
Sudds,
I am not out to save humanity, I want fairness for most for purely selfish reasons. The better everyone else the better for me. As a nice by-product it is also good business. E.g. look how Toplace works out so well and it basically breaks what most business schools teach.
Carlin's quote is like how I describe my cat's life. "Eat, sleep, poop, repeat." My cat is the most contented creature I have ever seen.
Xeon,
Yes and the 'some' who believe that are likely [re]publicans. I love the picking and choosing by 'some'. 9/11, almost nine MONTHS after George Bush Jr. was in office was Clinton's fault. The first World Trade center attack five WEEKS after Clinton was in office was --wait for it-- yep, Clinton's fault. The balancing of the budget by Clinton in 1999, 10 years after Reagan was out of office was the result of --wait for it-- yep, Reagan's policies. The only thing that I find interesting about [re]publicans is their hutzpa and ability to hoodwink otherwise smart people with their frames. [Re]publican 'fiscal responsibility' and 'morals' are about as believable as George Bush Jr. talking about WMDs in Iraq or his denying that he used coke.
This message has been edited by maxx_headroom on Jun 2, 2008 4:58 AM This message has been edited by maxx_headroom on Jun 2, 2008 4:48 AM
Im not a republican. And some of the things you mention are debatable. For instance.. about the 911 attacks. These attacks really didnt have much to do with Bush. going to iraq did. Clinton had osama bin laden. He had him dead. And let the guy slide by on more then one occasion.
I am not going to get into a debate about rep vs democrats because there is real no difference to me. The only difference is if you buy into the bull**** the figure heads feed the public. And the hard cold truth of the matter is no matter what crap either party says.. none of it really applies to the middle class working man. One is for tax breaks to save the rich a few million.. and one is for gay rights and other liberal ideas. None of which means a damn to me. If you think voting or parties are going to change the system.. everyone should vote for someone outside the fraternity of politics. because they produce the same people no matter what party.
This turned out to be an interesting discussion, I don't agree with everything above but I always learn from people I disagree with.
I also don't see much difference between Democrats and Republicans.... more than ever, the powerful natural forces shaping up our worlwide reality go far beyond the usual scope of being a US President and both the Dems and Reps usual programs, promises and schemes...
If we are observant enough, we can start noticing that our biggest challenges ahead will be to share all the natural resources available on earth in-between 6 billion and more people.
The incredible price increases of some basic commodities lately may only be the first warning signs of what's awaiting us in the future.
I have yet to hear any of the candidates (or any other country's leader by the way) showing signs of wanting to understand the reasons of the spectacular inflationary forces at work.
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
June 2 2008, 4:14 PM
I agree that there USED TO BE not much difference between the U.S. Republican and Democratic parties. Nowadays, today's [re]publicans have turned themselves into a fascist party that appeals to the extreme religious Christians as well as thinly veiled racist, xenophobe and anti-gay appeals. The scariest part is that the U.S. media, despite Fox News [sic] lies is not liberal, but is in fact conservative-biased and conservative owned boot-licks [re]publican arguments. One example of an extreme religious Christian and conservative-biased owner of the media simultaneously is the Reverend Sun Yoong Moon (founder of the Moonies) who owns The Washington Times. Read just a bit about this guy's Christian cult and his involvement w/the Bush family and it is enough to make one shudder.
"The scariest part is that the U.S. media, despite Fox News [sic] lies is not liberal, but is in fact conservative-biased and conservative owned boot-licks [re]publican arguments."
Oh give me a break. The friggin media has tared apart bush and his administration since hes been in office both in television and in writing. your probably one of those people who believe that The Bush administration master minded 911.
Sorry to disagree, but the U.S. media have given George Bush Jr. a pass. Imagine if Clinton had lied the U.S. into a war for non-existent WMDs. George Bush Jr. I do not think masterminded 9/11, worse, he was asleep at the wheel in the office of president IMO. The 9/11 attacks had everything to do w/the [non]actions of George Bush Jr. and his being asleep at the wheel IMO. He and his cabal were in charge and as we know he and his cabal were warned loudly and many times for at least the four months prior to 9/11 about it. In July 2001 John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airlines, because of 'security concerns', also in July the hotel in Italy where George Bush Jr. was staying was changed, because of concerns of terrorists flying planes into it (there goes C. Rice's assertion that no one had ever conceived of them flying planes into buildings) and of course George Bush Jr.'s month-long 'working' vacation (after less than eight months on the job) where he was [in]famously warned in the 06 Aug 2001 CIA daily briefing that 'Osama Bin Laden is determined to attack in the U.S.'.
I am not a Democrat nor a Republican, but I know that during my (now long) life that I live much better during Democratic presidents than during Republican presidents and presidents do make a difference. BTW, the Democrats are much too conservative and corporatist for me, but the Republicans IMO have just gone completely batsh*t crazy.
Dude osama binladen has been threatening us for the past 3 decades. and while clinton was in office he let him slide away when we had him dead in the water. Clinton as far as im concerned is even more at fault because he had him on more then one occasion.
And we would have had the same result i truly believe no matter who was in office. If they did the 911 attacks on 911 of 1998, the same result would have happened.
Bush bush bush.. screw bush. It took more then just the president to go to war. what about congress? do you think democrat vs republican is really gonna matter when the oil companies are willing to pay the gazillions to invade iraq?
Now the WMD debate has been reported by US intelligence as well as intelligence of OTHER GOVERNMENTS. The "faulty" intelligence reports were not just US based.. THat just goes to show you how far the influence can go.. and ur talking about political parties lol
You blame Clinton, but give George Bush Jr. a pass. Why? George Bush Jr. had Bin Laden at Tora Bora and called off the Army. George Bush Jr. allowed Bin Laden's family members fly out of the U.S. when all other U.S. flights were grounded after 9/11. Yet you find George Bush Jr. not at all at fault. Why?
IMO it is because of the right-winged biased U.S. news media reporting. As most recently written by Scott McClellan George Bush Jr. attacked Iraq because he wanted to, the WMD evidence was not there. This has been reported by multiple people on the inside during the George Bush Jr. junta and all are tarred as 'disgruntled former employees'. IOW THEY are all liars and George Bush Jr. is not. Why would anyone believe that? IMO propaganda from the right-winged biased U.S. media.
I say again, change the actions of George Bush Jr. and replace his name w/Clinton and see if the U.S. media would not have demanded impeachment long ago. I think any objective observer would say yes. The [re]publicans and George Bush Jr. have wrecked the economy and disgraced the U.S. overseas while murdering hundreds of thousands. All this in the name of 9/11. So much for the 'Christian' values of George Bush Jr. and his supporters.
As far as the Democrats supporting the attack against Iraq. You are only partially correct. Most of the Democrats in the Senate caved in yes, but the majority of Democrats in the House of Representatives voted against the attack on Iraq. They and the Senators who did vote against the attack on Iraq were right and those who voted for it along w/George Bush Jr. were wrong. Also, in 2003 the [re]publicans were in charge of both houses of Congress so blaming it on the Democrats in general in light of actual votes is lame IMO, especially since today's fascist [re]publicans vote in lock-step like true fascists.
This message has been edited by maxx_headroom on Jun 3, 2008 2:02 AM
I think G-Dub needs to use strongarm tactics with China and tell them that if they don't start bleachin' those knots a little better, then war will be inevitable. I'd love to see protestors march on Washington holding signs that say "NO WAR FOR HAIR!"
lol im not giving bush a pass to anything. I am not a bush supporter or fan for that matter. I am just making a point because you seem a little extreme. The democratic party isnt the savior of the united states. Shiesty things and payoffs and corporate power are going to exist and would have existed no matter who was in office. That is my main point. There is no one person u can point the finger at really. There has not been a real good president since teddy Roosevelt. Politics and the people in it are like a cloned army. Some are tagged republicans some are tagged Democrat. But they come off the same production belt.
The problems in the middle east have been an ongoing issue that extends before bush or clinton
and again I really disagree with you about the media. every channel on tv with the exception of Fox 5 as well as many major newspapers have showed 0 respect or regard for bush and his administration. And the reason for that seems to be pretty clear. But i wont get into it.
This country wants protesters and those to object to the government. that way we can do what we want go to war with whoever and appear like the people dont want to. lol
X, that last paragraph reminds me of that one South Park episode where Cartmen travels back in time to see if the founding fathers would approve of the Iraq war!
You got more for plagiarism. thats exactly where i got that from rofl. That show is the best. speaks many wise words of wisdom and that episode summed it up really nicely rofl
"For instance.. about the 911 attacks. These attacks really didnt have much to do with Bush."
Let me preface by saying the only party I ever belonged to was the GOP, I'm a USAF vet from the Reagan years & I was going to vote McCain in 2000 until Karl Rove swiftboated him. But hey, I voted for Gore & he won! Just the Supreme Court took that away.
9/11/2001 is Bush's and Bush's alone. He called off all counter & cotainment measures that Terrorism Senior Advisor (who served both GOP & Democrat administrations)had in place, as soon as he took office.
Bin Laden was a US operative & fully funded/armed by us in the proxy war against Russia in Afganistan.
S.Bin Laden funded GW Bush's first business & both famalies still do business to this day via the Carlyle Group.
Look up "Operation Northwoods". Every war the US has been invovled in started out with a "false flag" attack. Seeing government documents that show the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up plans for the attack of US civilian/military (Northwoods)in order to get us into war with Cuba, should bring it home.
The two party system is corrupt & criminal - neither is good, but there are sensible folks from both. Trouble is, they don't get funded, thus no power.
The US is a fascist country; but in the Mussolini definition ("government run by corporations for corporations"). Fascist does not equal Nazi, as a socialist goverment is not communist.
Al Gore ultimately answered to a much higher calling than the Presidency...He tracked down and killed ManBearPig. If he had been awarded the White House, he probably never would have found the time to undertake such an heroic mission. I'm totally cereal.
This message has been edited by Suddzy on Jun 3, 2008 6:53 PM
The piss out of the ass is the tourettes episode that had me laughing.
The guy above answered his own question. We funded binladen and Saddam. Saddam was almost our right hand man for years when we helped him destroy the Iranians, which further made them hate us with good reason. Now Iran is a big problem. Probably invading Iraq was 80 percent oil and 20 percent an action to safeguard against Iran.
Either way. the bottom line is, u guys can argue about politics all you want or talk about how the fascist apocalypse is coming. But the truth is, history repeats.. and these sorts of things have been going on way before bush or clinton. The problem in the middle east has been brewing for a long time, and it was going to come back at us sooner or later no matter who was in office. It was coming to us. But you can analyze bush and recent things, and ill agree with you.. im not disagreeing. I am simply looking at the big picture is all.
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Re: Huh? Que? Crikey!?!
June 4 2008, 5:37 AM
For me it is too easy to say the [re]publicans and Democrats are the same any more. The [re]publicans have gone so far off their noggins (they must use too much Ultrahold on their wigs) to become simply crazy.
I also was in the Army and most who are veterans hate wars. McCain for some reasons wants to start more wars, just like George Bush Jr. George Bush Jr. I can almost understand, since he is playing dress up soldier, but McCain was actually in the military, while George Bush Jr. was not. Apologies to any in today's National Guard, but the Guard during George Bush Jr.'s time was legal draft dodging and a way to get drunk. Both of these are things at which George Bush Jr. excelled.
I am not the one who is extreme, the [re]publicans who support George Bush Jr. and his policies are the ones who are extreme. Extreme is the hundreds of thousands of deaths as a result of George Bush Jr. policies. McCain wants to continue those policies as he says now almost daily.
I hate to admit it, but the U.S. is a fascist country now. O'bama at least gives the U.S. a chance to turn that back a bit, McCain will make it worse IMO. That is why I do not think that the [re]publicans and Democrats are the same.
Xeon,
We just disagree on the U.S. media. George Bush Jr. has gotten a pass from the U.S. mainstream media IMO. E.g. did you hear any reporting about him crashing into a UK Bobby while riding his bicycle? Do you ever hear them mention while showing George Bush Jr. playing golf that he promised he was going to give up golf while our soldiers were fighting in Iraq? Did you ever hear them ask why if George Bush Jr. no longer drinks there are pictures of him imbibing while in Europe? The guy can barely string words together w/o a script in front of him and yet he is treated w/undeserved respect. They no longer even bother asking him about no WMDs in Iraq and now the George Bush Jr. junta are repeating the same types of lies to ratchet up conflict w/Iran. Iran is not a threat to the U.S. nor U.S. soldiers in Iraq. George Bush Jr. is a threat to the U.S. and U.S. soldiers in Iraq. George Bush Jr.'s lies have killed well over 4000 U.S. soldiers Iran has to date been shown to have killed none.
To answer your questions. I have seen video clips on the news of bush drunk more then once. And they constantly talk about him on his ranch and what he does while the US was in a crisis. Yes they showed him again and again and again on 911 just sitting there for 15 minutes when he was informed of the 911 attacks. and yes ive seen TV make a complete mockery out of bush on various different shows from news coverage to late night comedy. Believe me in a fascist country jay leno or anyone else is not going to get away with comparing george bush to a monkey.
You are allowed to talk about your opinion openly with 0 consequence. Thats what differentiates the united states from a lot of other countries out there.
I also kind of disagree with you about Iran not being a threat. Anytime a country or people have a real profound hatred for you, you are in danger. And that is something we need to learn through 911. We ignored the warnings and the hate because we felt nothing could touch us from a poor lil country in the desert. Or we just didnt care. You have to understand that we are more then partially responsible for the destruction of that country. Theres a reason why they hate us, and it has nothing to do with our democracy or our religion.
You see I dont make the mistake of separating binladen or a terrorist group with countries. They are one of the same. These countries cannot fight back economically nor militarily . No matter if they are in economic cahoots with us at some level like Saudi Arabia or the old Iran. They still hate us. There military or only defense is to support these radical religious groups. They are pretty m uch out of options.
Now if you believe that once obama bin laden gets elected and all our troubles will disappear because they are not republican. You are surely more hopeful then me.
Do you really believe what you're implying? Because someone has an ethnic name makes them less of an American? Following than line of thought, Bush was changed from Busch. His Grandpappys, Herbert Walker & Prescott Bush, were charged, convicted/prosecuted for funding Nazi Germany after America entered the war & US military casualities were mounting.
Fascist state - again, look up Mussolini's definition of corp ownership. You can't say allot of things in this country - try showing up at the next convention, an appearence of any cabinet memeber, etc., and see what happens. There's video around of two old US military vets, neither being obnoxious & simply making a statement or asking a question, being removed from the Q&A session because they asked Rice & Rumsfeld difficult questions. Your phone calls are screened & internet traffic/content is monitored. Your spending history is reviewed. US/UK/Aussie/Canuck citizens have been held for over 5 years without legal counsel or trial. The state of Texas took private property for commercial development......there's enough, if you look.
But hey, I like debate & politics in this country have turned things into life or death (quality of life vs. slow, but still ultimately death). It's one of those things where you start to learn, the deeper you get.
BUT, this is a hair site & I know there was another forum put up for this type of off topic stuff. Please Mods, move this there.
John McCain's got a brand new plan for attracting the young vote--he's buyin' some wax works and givin himself a short, spikey front. Obama is clearly the "dermmatch candidate"--he's well into his forties with no temple recession at all!
Im not even gonna bother debating anymore, because I was making generalized points. but i can see these people are just going to extremes. The united states is accused by m any as being one of the more liberal countries in the world who let people say and do things that would get their family jewels cut off in some other countries.
U can find the faults you mention in ANY country at any period of time. Theres always going to be these type of issues or some kind of form of control mechanism set up. If you are speaking of the patriot act, i believe a lot of it was blown out of proportion. The phone monitoring was a safety measure that was ran by computer systems that filtered out key words. Usually terrorist code out of billions of lines of communication. Bush wasnt sitting on the other line listening to your phone conversations. Im not saying I am for the idea.. i am not promoting it or agree with it. All im saying is, the system was set up differently then what people were trying to make it out as.
any event. corporations run this country.. Big business runs this country. and i really do not believe it has anything to do with a particular party in general. It has to do with economics and free enterprise and the result of companies becoming ever larger. money is money, call it what u like. put a name to it. but money is the root cause. and those who power will always want more power. Period.
The only thing we are really disagreeing on is that i believe that there is no such thing as a great righteous politician. and to me it makes no difference who is in offic anymore. They are all controlled. even the most liberal democratic bs artist.
and the obama bin laden was a joke. but definitely will be a form of irony if our president is obama, and our fbi's most wanted is osama.. Shrugs
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Re: "OBAMA BIN LADEN"!?!?
June 6 2008, 2:00 AM
Xeon,
As I said. We disagree.
I like to follow the Thomas Jefferson logic. You should never 'trust' any government and you should trust your own government the least.
The [re]publicans have gone batsh*t crazy. The Democrats are much better for most of us.
Sugar-coat it, ignore it, be cynical about it not voting for the even flawed Democrat in 2008 is a vote for McCain. A vote for McCain is a vote for death IMO.
Iran is NOT a threat to the U.S. and the greatest sponsor of international terrorism is the U.S. via the actions of our own government.
As a country we have been here before and turned it around. Neither Roosevelt was considered especially great when entering office, but IMO they were the two best presidents of the 20th century and saved the U.S. from its own elites.
This message has been edited by maxx_headroom on Jun 6, 2008 2:01 AM
Lets say the strongest military power right now was Russia. Russia used their power and resources to create corrupt economic ties to our own corrupt government because Russia wanted access to our great agriculture. There was a corn shortage in the world. Our people here are starving and our government is being regulated by Russia. Russia gave us tons of weapons and technology to defend against Canada and other threats because of their own self interest. Our corrupt government falls and now we are in chaos.
Canada sees that we are now vulnerable and now tries to invade us and we are at war, but its at a standstill. Neither side is winning. Now Russia steps in and gives the Canadians weapons, technology and training and aids the Canadians in kicking our asses and totally devastating our country to ruins. The war would have ended in a stalemate, but Russia made sure that we got completely annihilated. Now you live in a completely impoverished nation mainly do to the actions of Russia. The Canadian president now is in cahoots with Russia for the next decade getting funded, training, military assistance and we are lucky to eat now.
Now we all hate Russia with a passion. we have a kill russia day every friday and in our region we have a bunch of christian fundamentalists that want to do terrorist attacks in retaliation. We also just developed a nuclear warhead. Now Russia has turned on their Canadian allies and invaded and demolished that country to regulate their agriculture. Now the Canadians and Americans both have a unified hate for Russia with both countries devastated.
Russia thinks we are not a threat after all they have done. I guess well get them with their pants down again while they continue to play a strategic game of chess in our region.
Now given this situation. Dont you think that we will do whatever it takes to get back at russia? Even if that means funding the radical Christian groups that developed? I mean was a poor country like Afghanistan ever really a threat? But we lost thousands of people on 911 due to influences and people from that area.
Believing people are not a threat when you keep poking them is exactly what caused 911. Not our religion or democracy or hatred for American values.
I love this thread!!! The longer it lives, the more extreme the arguments get. "A vote for McCain is a vote for DEATH!" If elected, how soon into his presidency will he come to my door and slaughter me? I'm thinkin of buying term life insurance, and this knowledge would be very useful.
"I am not going to get into a debate about rep vs democrats because there is real no difference to me." -XEON
Oh come on...are you serious??? There are huge differences between people who view themselves as either repub or democrat...the people who are often with "no difference" are the POLITICIANS who call themselves R or D
Nobody has touched on this but I gotta throw it out there for what it's worth. Oil is priced in dollars. So as the price of oil increases the value of the dollar decreases. C'mon all you experts--what's the significance of this?
i sold my speed boat got married ..wow i saving money and no headaches..count on gas staying high $6 will not suprise me .everything will rise but our incomes..wheat and flour hans . my buddys pizza place was paying $14 for a bag of flour 50lbs i think now over $40 in a few months
bob/p
haha. good point gel. I guess im independent since i believe both parties suck. Ones for lesbian rights to adopt kids, and ones for big business.. well they both are for big business no matter what they say. heh
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
June 7 2008, 4:42 AM
Xeon,
IMO you just buy into the U.S. right-winged biased media slant, because it is repeated constantly. If the the U.S. government would quit messing w/other countries to enable corporations to make buckos there then people would not be ticked at the U.S. Apart of course from the minimal amount of crazies. This is not new, look up on the internet what TWO time winner of the U.S. Congressional Medal of Honor winner Marine Corp General Smedley Butler wrote about U.S. foreign policy.
Wal-Mart's low prices come at too high a cost for me. Plus it is a bait and switch place, they suck you in w/some low prices and other things are the same or higher than elsewhere. I think I can get over your teasing, remember I can handle wearing a wig to ice hockey some days and other days going bald, my skin is pretty thick.
This message has been edited by maxx_headroom on Jun 7, 2008 5:46 AM
John: a weaker US dollar tends to boost the price of dollar-denominated commodities, (such as oil) as it makes them cheaper for holders of other currencies.
So the extremely high demand from 'emergent' countries like China, India and many more is being exacerbated with another problem: the historical low value of the US dollar because of a weak US economy and also the poor image of the US worldwide. The result is a spectacular rampant inflation in basic raw commodities such as oil, corn, wheat and many more.
It's a well entrenched vicious circle and really, it's tough to see how it will be resolved.
Maxx: haha....good to see you taking it well. Life is way to short for pouting and not having fun
Maxx, we certainly agree on one thing...Wal-Mart sucks! I avoid that place like the plague. The parking lots are a nightmare, the "meat" they sell is garbage, they never have any registers open, the "self-checkout" registers never work, etc., etc. I would much rather spend a few more dollars and go to a real grocery store than deal with that headache.
My pal Bobby wrote,"i sold my speed boat got married ..wow i saving money and no headaches.."
Ummmm..... give it time Bobby. Since when has a woman ever saved a guy money?!???
Just kidding of course. You're a lucky guy. Aren't Asian women the best? The Asian ladies I used to work with are the kindest, most generous women I had ever met. Hearts of gold, I say. Too bad they were all married. If I ever get a vacation, I'll be off to some Asian country for a few months.
max i agree you you.. for that was the point of my post. It has to do with corporations not parties. You dont think big corporations fund the democratic party? The most money wins.
This one will probably stir up quite the hornet's nest but here goes...what do you guys have against corporations? Should we go back to the ways of the old west and have nothing but mom and pop general stores? Go ahead fellas, fire away!!!
nah corporations are what made America a super power. Im just talking about the aftermath of what happens when corporations start getting too big.
You ever take a bubble bath or something? After you get out of the tub. there are like little sud patches scattered around. I think of those as US companies. And they seem to be moving, interacting and converging through the properties of attraction. I see that as the forces of greed and capitalism. At first you get a lot of activity, the suds are moving around, and the economy is being stimulated and productive. but after time. you notice that the suds keep on converging forming ever bigger suds that end up sucking up all the little ones around it. 20 mins later all you have are a few big blobs of suds moving very slowly. Activity is very minimal now. After even more time. all you are left with is one large filament that covers the entire surface with 0 activity and no movement. your left with stagnation because there is no more attraction or fuel. Prices are now set across industries, and no one else has the money or cost effectiveness to compete anymore. Everything is being dictated now by one source.
I dont think we are at that point yet, but its getting there lol.
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
June 8 2008, 6:12 PM
Not many people have much against the 'idea' of corporations and regulated corporations are fine. Corporations however use their money to cheat the system and care nothing (they cannot care, because they are not 'people') about freedom and fairness. The problem IMO is that today corporations are allowed to have socialism for themselves while other forms of business (e.g. small businesses by and large) have to play by different rules.
One example, energy. Oil/coal/gas get huge government subsidies and would not be competitive w/o these subsidies. Yet, we hear on the right-wing biased U.S. media that solar/wind/geothermal are not 'competitive'. Of course not, you have a socialized oil/coal/gas industry competing against a non- or less-subsidized industry.
Another example, look at the nuclear industry, despite over 60 YEARS of subsidies it still cannot function w/o government subsidies and other benefits. An example that effects ALL homeowners in the U.S. - check your home insurance policy and you will see a section that says that there is no insurance against radiation exposure. The nuclear energy corporations got that via Congress. Small businesses do not get a pass on liability insurance when operating.
Now, add the above to the outsourcing of jobs from the U.S. for cheap labor, the simultaneous stealing of pension funds, record yearly payments to corporate big-dogs and the [re]publican assault on unions starting w/Reagan and of course most (IMO) sane people are not fans of corporations as they are run in the U.S. BTW, remember it was Mussolini that said that fascism s/b more accurately described as 'corporatism'.
Another example, most say that corporations are 'persons', but they are not. If one reads the famous Santa Clara versus Union Pacific Supreme Court case, the decision never said that. Nowadays, however the right wing biased U.S. media have convinced most that corporations have 'person-hood' and can do things that a person can, e.g. give money to political candidates. Corporations are not 'people' and giving money by corporations to political candidates is 'bribery' not 'free speech'. Such contribution actions by corporations were illegal through most of U.S. history and were grounds for dissolution of the corporation.
There are good ways of having corporations operate and there not good ways. Both Roosevelts (one a Republican one a Democrat) changed the rules to make corporations more responsible. As I said above, we have been here before and fixed it and it can be done again. IMO, however the [re]publican party has lost its collective mind and the only chance for change are the Democrats who are themselves corrupted by corporations, but not nearly as much and not all factions of it as is the [re]publican party.
Almost, it is not how big they are, but what they are allowed to do w/that bigness in the rules of whatever system in which they operate. E.g. corporations under fascism can lead to killing machines for money or war profiteering. One only has to look to Nazi Germany in history or current-day Iraq to see how corporations will kill for buckos.
Alternatively, look at the Western European/U.S. model of the 1950s-1970s to see how even 'big' corporations can be made to act responsibly. While not perfect better than what we currently have.
You are right when the government and corporations become one, most call that fascism.
I wouldn't go that far, I do not think. I do not see it as fascism. In fact the mentality of this country is far from a fascist state, When you have immigrants here who are making money and refuse to learn English while condemning the country. You think a place like Miami would be allowed in Germany? lol Again you speak some truth, but then take it to an extreme.
And I believe being big has a lot to do with it, because the bigger you are the more money you have. and the root cause is money.
lastly again I disagree with you when you say that businesses from 1950-70 had a better model or whatever. In some respects it was worse and had less regulation, and companies had more freedom to do what they wanted. I wouldn't wanna eat a hot dog in 1950 I can tell you that much. lol.
What about the Vietnam war? You dont think that had anything to do with business? Our time period is not as unique as you think. We kept losing lives in Vietnam because of business. Back then it was factory production output. Our factories were pumpin.. from toothbrushes to foods, to equipment to shoelaces to boots. and when 100s died.. the factories could pump out more goods.
I haven't read through all of this thread, just poked around here and there.
Some points to keep in mind (may or may not apply, but it appears from skip reading some of the post that it will).
- Oil pricing is mostly driven by global demand, which is on the rise. That coupled with flat production raises prices.
- Probably (currently) somewhere around $10.00 ~ $15.00 of the current cost of crude is due to speculation. A lot of funds are certainly speculating on oil.
- The (current) weak dollar (US) is also contributing to the cost of oil, mainly making it cheaper for foreign speculators.
- The US has, basically, NO energy policy in place and needs to get their head out of their asses. The E85 crap is a bloody joke and is helping to drive prices up on a lot of things here.
- Regarding corporations (public), they have but ONE responsibility and that is to their investors. NOTHING or NO ONE else. They exist to make money for their investors PERIOD. No investors, no public corps.
- The current administration is a government for, by, and of the corporations PERIOD.
When all this is understood, their are no mysteries
Everything is quite clear.
It's not bad/evil, it's just that way it is.
Get over it
Fred, I was waiting to see if anyone would bring up the point about responsibility to the stockholders. I basically brought up the question just to see if anyone would acknowledge that point!
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Re: Off Topic...a wonderful thing!
June 10 2008, 3:09 AM
Xeon,
No surprise that we disagree. Not wrong nor right, just fact.
It has been said many times in the thread that corporations' primary responsibility is to make money. However, that is not their ONLY responsibility. They also have a responsibility not to break laws, kill people, injure people, sell poison, etc.
Regulated corporations work. Who is big enough to regulate them? Government is about the only choice.
For the sports fans, imagine professional sports w/o referees and how bad that would be. It is bad enough w/them. Today's U.S. [re]publican so-called free marketeers have gone batsh*t crazy and we see the results in the economy. Bush Jr. and Co. inherited a Mercedes' economy and turned it into a Trabi. All the while their politburo are living large.
Regarding fascism and corporatism, if it walks like a duck...
"I wouldn't go that far, I do not think. I do not see it as fascism. In fact the mentality of this country is far from a fascist state, When you have immigrants here who are making money and refuse to learn English while condemning the country. You think a place like Miami would be allowed in Germany? lol Again you speak some truth, but then take it to an extreme."
There are political models in real life & on paper. In real life, things are a hybrid of systems, on paper, well, that's the only place for absolutes or "pure" models.
A Fascist state, just like a socialist state, a capitalist state, etc., has varying degrees. At the far Right xtreme of fascism, you have Weimar Germany & the Nazi era.
At the Left side, you have systems where corporations control the government. That's what we have here. The mentality of the country has jack squat to do with it, as all folks are going to do is piss & moan about prices/their work, etc, and maybe take a look come national election time.
Again, like the above quote from X, people here the label & have a kee jerk reaction, looking at the worst examples, the nth degree inhumanity of that model, and think it applies to all degrees.
Think Socialist State and what do you think of? Is the Netherlands the fist thing that pops in your mind, or someplace like China or N.Korea?
And about those immigrant neigborhoods: I think if you look at the incarceration per captia rates, as well as the demographics in our prisons ( did you ever think, when we were kids, that the USA would have the most people behind bars on the planet, as well as the highest pecetange of our population in the chokey?), we ain't exactly giving them a free pass.
But, we've gone through this before; folks forget that at the beginning of the 20th Century in the USA, we had the American Fascist Party that put candidates on the ballot. We had the era of "Robber Barons" where our anti-trust laws were in response to. We had big segments of the country that supported ( financially & otherwise) Weimar Germany. Hell, the US space program & CIA was seeded with Nazi scientists & spooks alike that were given clemency after the war in order to jumpstart our versions!!
Foorgot to add: gas prices today are a direct effect of market speculation, as Fred said. Supply & Demand is moot - there's more than enough supply/on hold production capability, where 2 things are happening: 1) supply is being artificially messed with and b) Market speculation is doing the same adverse sort of thing to pricing that occured with Tech Stocks prior to the Bubble Burst of the dot com era.
This message has been edited by Mr.NewYork on Jun 10, 2008 8:32 AM
I cant disagree with any particular point in general. I agree with your analysis new york. how how inventory is up , demand is down. one of the worst holiday seasons etc.
But no candidate is going to become president unless they have big corps backing them up with a lot of money. Its one of the largest payoffs there is. and this is nothing new. this is how our system has been working. And then the corps are able to bend the rules or laws, which bends their responsibilities. The oil companies have a lot of money, which means they have a lot of pull.
So perhaps the next president will be funded by Merck medco. and vital cancer research that could save millions of lives might be halted in the interest of the zillions of dollars of revenue the disease brings in. My entire point is not to disagree with the current economics or policies. Its just to point out that the particular actions happening now has to do with the fundamentals of the system itself. Not just a party or figure head. War, power, corporate influence. It is nothing new. Neither is a US recession. we have had more then several.
The only difference now, is that the accumulation of corporate/govt actions is starting to splash back at us in new ways. 9-11 did not happen because of bush. It happened because of decades worth of policy in that region. Because we got attacked, and things are becoming obvious, everyones taking their heads out of the sand and believing something brand new is happening. Before that you never really heard the average person talk about the middle east. now thats all you hear. The general feeling has become.. omg our country has become a fascist state overnight because of bush and his administration. And that is where i disagree. I see it as a progression thats been happening for a long time. but the average american had no reason to care until they start seeing the repercussions. So blame bush 100 percent. and put all your hope on another phony politician and naively think thats going to change everything. Another repeated theme throughout history.
and one last thing. the politician or person who could or would try to make a positive change outside of who pulls on his or her leash will never get the opportunity. And thats where your main problem lies
This message has been edited by Xeon005 on Jun 10, 2008 2:50 PM
Maxx (Login maxx_headroom) Convention Photos and Videos.
Re: Here's part of the problem
June 10 2008, 11:22 PM
Xeon,
While I understand why you would think that no politician can change things, the actual facts do not back up that cynicism.
E.g. George Bush Jr. has trashed the economy and turned the U.S. towards fascism more than any other person. That is a singular 'accomplishment'.
One person does not turn it around, but those at the top set a tone. Would you rather have a policy direction of a George Bush Jr. or a George Bush Jr.-clone (McSame) or bring s/t different?
What has been done by [re]publicans since 1980 (Reagan), has been proven not to work. Reagan, George Bush Sr. and George Bush Jr. all brought the most tax cuts for the wealthiest and all produced the largest deficits ever. All three borrowed more money during their particular administration themselves than all other U.S. presidents before them COMBINED.
Only one president since 1980, Clinton, had surpluses and a balanced budget. Ironically, after Clinton and his party raised taxes (with not one [re]publican voting for that increase) the largest economic expansion occurred. It was not of course just taxes it was being smart and responsible rather than running a Bush family banana-republic type of fascism for you, your family and your cronies.
Just because Americans are finally waking up to American-style fascism does not mean that is bad and it does mean that it will be stopped. E.g. Kucinich laid out mostly good (and some not so good) reasons to impeach George Bush Jr. last night and today, but the right-winged biased U.S. news media ignored it or laughed it off. That says more than words. George Bush Jr. lied the U.S. into war and the mainstream press and Democratic leadership gives him a pass. Fascism.
At least Obama as soon as he clinched the Democratic nomination said that they would take no more money from lobbyists. That is a start.
1) We are unmistakenly a degree or hybrid of a fascist state. Look at it this way - China, Russia - unquestioningly Communists States, however, there's developed a middle class, and that's why we're having this energy discussion. But nobody is swearing that the mafia wont knock on your St.Petersburg business adress if you're doing well, or that the 2nd kidney may be eleceted to be a "spare" for you if you're in a Chinese prison.
That they're hybrid - ours starts as a base in Capitalism, and mutates to where the Military Industrial Complex has spread to include a wider diversity of industry - why else would the Patriot Act, supposedly designed to counter "terrorism", swell to 100's of pages with the inclusion of litigation protection for Big Pharma againt pediatric vaccines/Autism cases? Hell, if a company willing puts cheap Mercury into your baby's vaccine, as a preservative ( to increase shelf life & maximise profit), and your kid gets poisioned into Autism or a vegatative state or death......shouldn't you be able to sue?
2) Of course the Bush Administration did not make us a Fascist State overnight - it took all of 4 years, accelerated by the free ride they were given by a collective mentality of Post Traumatic Stress in the USA, post 9/11/01.
Bush has done nothing different from any other US president since after Eisenhower - he's served the corporate elite ruling class, and not whatever party he happened to belong to. There's one caveat: he put the pedal to the metal in shoving it down our throats, where all before him took a covert/leisurely 'stroll' in advancing that ball. He also threw out the window the concept of his predecessors, which is the 'organized crime model' = give everybody a little taste, and they stay happy! Bush was so uneven handed in dealing with Poor/Middle/Upper classes, that's where it shows the most.
Maxx, I can go into little details with you of what Clinton has done that I didn't like, and the real reasons behind the economic boom during his administration, besides his tax raises. But this thread is already almost 90 posts, and we can go back and forth forever looking at particulars. I am trying to talk about the situation without suffering from myopia or debate about single actions.
Too many times people are so focused they lose sight of the big picture. and thats what I have been trying to get at this whole time. Step back and look at the system in general. Again, I am not for Bush. I am not a republican. I am not an advocate of the current administration. What I am trying to be is a realist. And all the problems Bush has stirred up in our faces makes me look not just at his administration, but a wider perspective of how things even were allowed to get that way.
Its like if people didnt know about global warming, then all of the sudden bush does something to make the problem obvious and we reach record levels of Co2 in the atmosphere during his reign. Some will just analyze his actions to death and say its all his fault. Hes an oil company advocate, and he single handedly destroyed the environment. and that the environment wasnt as bad during Clintons administration. Sure he might have not done anything to help, and sure he probably made the problem much worse.. But for me personally. I look at the whole picture and try to understand that global warming might be more evident now then ever before, but its a problem that was created by our system and has gotten progressively worse for a long time.
But I travel to and visit Thailand every few months ...
because I like the sense of family I experience in
Asia ... that we don't have here ......
And getting to experience the simpler things allow
you to appreciate what you have ....
Of course, I'm a little peeved when I go over
there as most thai people have a beautiful head
of hair ... are at their right and proper weight
and eat all day like gerbils locked in a cheese
store ....
Just think .... toplace .. even if they are forced
to raise their prices ... are a long way from places
like hairdirect who also discount .. but charge 500
bucks.
Just my two cents ... darn ... it's an American 2 cents ..
so ... it's not worth 2 cents anymore
