WAFF Vet Club[Click here to Join WAFF!] WAFF Moderators Forum
General Discussion
(The Den)
The World's Armed Forces Forum History, Politics & Economics Forum
Greece & Turkey Defence Forum Europe, Middle East & Africa
Defence Forum
Asia & Pacific Defence Forum
Help, Suggestions & Complaints
   
   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004 at 3:58 AM
  (Login icefire850)

How will you rank the top 5 armed forces in Southeast Asia in terms of combat experience, equipment, and manpower?


    
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 6, 2004 4:00 AM


 
    
AuthorReply

(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 4:26 AM 

From my point of view...

Malaysian in the 6th or 7th place . Singapore no 1 of course. 2nd, 3rd, 4th...i don't know..it is up to you to decide icefire.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 5:36 AM 

In a real war, Vietnam is the strongest, it doesn't matter who is second, third etc. Just go to CSIS and look at the military balance. Vietnam has overwhelming numerical advantage against any SEA nation. They may be old systems but the numerical advantage is so great, quality doesn't matter.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 5:45 AM 

Possible if the war is in Vietnam's home turf, but if Vietnam brings the war across the sea, e.g. Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia or even Malaysia, then sustaining and supplying the war will be very difficult for the Vietnamese.


    
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 6, 2004 5:47 AM


 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 5:55 AM 

Yes. And the same applies in reverse. Nobody in south east asia is able to fight and "away turf" war. None has good stuff like Tarrawa class amphibious assault ship, none has large numbers of self-propelled SAMs. They will all die in an "away" war.

 
 

(Login MilitaryExpert)

Top 5 Armed Forces

April 6 2004, 5:56 AM 

Harimau 2000, are you sure you rank Malaysia in 6th or 7th place? In SOUTHEAST ASIA, not Asia you know!
In my opinion, the top 5 are
1)Singapore
2)Malaysia
3)Thailand
4)Vietnam
5)Indonesia

Perhaps Malaysia and Thailand can share second spot as Malaysa has quality equipment but litle quantity while Thailand has much more poorer quality equipment. Vietnam has too much obseolete equipment. Maybe they can hope for a draw on homeground due to numerical superiority but they cannot invade another country.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 6:00 AM 

Military Expert, you don't understand Harimau IS a Malaysian, he was being ironical in suggesting Singapore is very good, because in the past there were big fights between MY and SG on this forum.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 6:03 AM 

And of course, Malaysia is not really far behind Singapore. But SG is still clearly superior. Just look at their Adnan IFV, they buy weapons from Turkey, while Turkey buys weapons from us. The Pantera guns of Turkey is really localised FH2000. And there is great cooperation between SG and Turkey in areas of wheeled vehicle and all terrain vehicles.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 6:17 AM 

I agree. Singapore has the most modern armed forces in Southeast Asia, but realistically, its military will never be modern enough nor capable enough to defeat an invading army. Its just too small.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 6:21 AM 

Singapore will not be able to conquer another country, but is definitely able to defeat an invader, assuming not something like China/US/UK/India. Against an invader that is also a non-major-power, Singapore will succeed because defender has advantage, and SG IS stronger than almost everyone else in the region in anti-invasion. Though we are no military power, we are not geared for attacking and taking land. But if you invade us and you are not a power like China, you can forget it. You will never succeed.

 
 

(Login Lieutenant-Willz)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 6:31 AM 

South East Asia's Airforces rank:

1. Singapore
2. Malaysia
3. Vietnam
4. Thailand
5. Indonesia
6. Brunei
7. Burma
8. Philippines
9. Laos
10. Cambodia
11. East Timor

do u agree?

 
 

(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 7:26 AM 

>Military Expert, you don't understand Harimau IS a Malaysian, he was being ironical in suggesting Singapore is very good, because in the past there were big fights between MY and SG on this forum

Well sane guy..you are half right. I am trying to be fair and not bias toward my country and the same time it also achieve my target of being ironic. The truth is if you are comparing nos of equipment and personnel plus all the advance technology used, i vote for Singapore. Singapore could be consider as paper tiger (hope this will not offended my dearest singaporean) and it the no 1 military power in South east Asia. No doubt about it. I don't mind if our dear forumer wish to rank malaysia in 6th or 7th place as it would not have any influence on the real capabilities of our armed forced. To rank thailand in 3rd position will not be fair as thailand have more nos of personnel and tank compare to Malaysia.


 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 7:27 AM 

Singapore will succeed because defender has advantage

I hope Singapore will succeed this time in a future defensive scenario.

In World War II, the Allied forces defending Singapore collapsed in just 7 days of fighting despite enjoying a numerical advantage of 3 is to 1 over the attacking Japanese forces.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 7:42 AM 

First of all, Singapore, as many have already has put it, has no ambitions about going on a conquest. However, we can defend overselves and make any attacker pay for it dearly. A neighbouring country has claimed that it can give anyone who attacks it a bloody nose, well Singapore can give her attackers a knock-out punch to kill the invasion.. period.

Secondly, no country is quite capable of invading Vietnam saved super-powers or middle powers as large as Britain,etc. Even then, these countries would have to go for full conscription to leverage on additional man-power. Vietnam leverages on man-power where she can get her whole male population to fight for her. But that also limits her power to her borders or vicinities around her. While it might be true in the past when the SEA nations were relatively weak, she is now unable to assert any form power projection into other areas of SEA.

Singapore`s defence is offensive in nature. We will attack in order to defend ourselves. As such, while our intention is not to conquer, we will take territories. This applies to our immediate neighbours. There is little they can do about this.

Top Air-force in SEA.

1) Singapore
2) Thailand
3) Malaysia
4) Vietnam, the rest are negligible

Top navy in SEA

1) Singapore
2) Thailand
3) Malaysia
4) Indonesia,etc

Top Army in SEA

1) Vietnam
2) Singapore
3) Thailand
4) Malaysia,etc

Overall;

1) Singapore
2) Thailand
3) Malaysia
4) Indonesia


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 8:20 AM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 7:46 AM


 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:00 AM 

Singapore`s defence is offensive in nature. We will attack in order to defend ourselves. As such, while our intention is not to conquer, we will take territories. This applies to our immediate neighbours. There is little they can do about this.

- A very brave statement but unfortunately totally unrealistic, specially the "we will take territories" part. Singapore just don't have the manpower and sustainable resources to achieve this, but punitive actions, maybe.


    
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 6, 2004 8:01 AM


 
 


(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:00 AM 

Talking about experience, we could try to list down every country involved in each conflict :

 

1. Vietnam War

2. Communist Insurgency & ohter militancy

3. Konfrantasi

4. WW2        LOL (some country did not even exist)

5. Other skirmish (at the border, during Peacekeeping etc) 

6. (plese fill in)

 

And about Tech :

1. Local defence tech, & sustainability

2. Level of Training / Adaptation

3. (please fill in )

 

And for Quantity Wise

1. Well, it's about qty  :P


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:04 AM 

>>A very brave statement but unfortunately totally unrealistic, specially the "we will take territories" part. Singapore just don't have the manpower and sustainable resources to achieve this, but punitive actions, maybe.>>

- This ia a wrong assumption yeah. The whole assault system is made out to invade and take territories. we will not be sitting in Singapore to defend ourselves. We will not engage in simple punitive measures. We have 350,000 troops to levarage on. And that is not little. We are not called the Israel of the East for nothing. We employ a similar appaoach in this respect. Attack us, we will come in and bring the war to your shores.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:05 AM 

And for Quantity Wise

1. Well, it's about qty :P
-----------------------------

- And quality too..that is important.


 
 

(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:29 AM 

We are not called the Israel of the East for nothing. We employ a similar appaoach in this respect. Attack us, we will come in and bring the war to your shores.

Are the enemy such as USA, China, France could be included into the case?

Sorry to interrupt you faz1, but 350,00 is total conscripts you have right?. How many could be send to battlefield and how many kept in homeland for defence? It sound crazy to send 350,000 cannon folder into enemy teritories without having any reserve defending homeland right? Then if you are taking 300,000 from the economy, what will happened if the war prolong? Economy will crumble from inside if i am not mistaken. If you are talking about the USA, fine..they have active personnel more than 300,000 troop, taking away their troop will not jeoperdise their economy right? Am i wrong here???



 
 


(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Related links

April 6 2004, 8:43 AM 


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:45 AM 

>>Are the enemy such as USA, China, France could be included into the case?>>

- Ahem. No. You`ll find in the preceding posts that Im talking about Singapore`s neighbours here. Why in the world would Singapore go on the offensive against USA, China, France,etc? Why in the world would they attack us?

>>Sorry to interrupt you faz1, but 350,00 is total conscripts you have right?. How many could be send to battlefield and how many kept in homeland for defence? It sound crazy to send 350,000 cannon folder into enemy teritories without having any reserve defending homeland right?>>

- Total men which would be carrying arms in the event of a major conflict. The total manpower Sg is capable of massing would be about a million.
- I am talking in terms of the number of men Singapore can levarage on immediately at the out-set of any conflicts. Within less than 1 day or 2, we can throw up 350,000 troops to defend ourselves. Also, there are paramilitary units in the tens of thousands such as Kins etc which will help out in the defence.
- Cannon fodder? Unlikely. They are the best equipped in SEA. In addition, we don`t need so many troops back in Singapore as we will be taking the fight to the enemy on thier own turf. Even if we are to send in 200,000 troops, it will be swift and destructive. Frankly, 100,000 will be enough as the SAF will leverage a lot on superior technology and fire-power. It is true. It will hurt us economically as it does Israel. But these can be overcome after the initial wave of conflicts have died down. Also, by the time the first few waves of attacks and counter-attacks are done, most of our enemy`s defence capabilities would already be in flames. In addition, why do you think we have such large savings. It is to help us tide over bad times and exigencies such as these. Singapore would also hardly be alone in the event of any exigencies.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 9:02 AM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 8:55 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 8:52 AM 

I am doing a submission to this site. Will post it soon for a critical evaluation by your good-selves.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 9:23 AM 

@ Daisy
You are just reiterating what you`ve said in chinese.
I aint a native English speaker.That is a fact. And you making a point about this is ridiculous. Don`t start flamming now. I will delete your post which I consider flammatory.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:01 AM 

How do you define best?

Singapore is the most well-equipped, and perhaps well-trained overall. We easily have the best little navy and airforce in SEA.

We now have crap AMX-13 tanks but I think the armoured force is highly-trained and with new equipment, they will be a very formidable force. (India and Israel dumped their AMX-13s because of low combat survivality. But somehow Singapore decided they would be good enough.)

But when it comes to infantry, maybe we are not tops anymore.

As someone has already said we are an army of conscripts. On top of that we are city folks even though most of us often keep fit.

The fighting men from other SEA nations would mainly consists of people who grew up in rural surroundings used to a harder life and know the natural environment better.

I would say that Thailand probably has the best ground troops (include spec ops, cdos etc) in ASEAN. Vietnam is actually Indochina so I would not include them but they are probably very, very good ground troops.

Indonesian ground troops are also battle-hardened and well-trained and organised. I don't know about Filipino ground troops' fighting abilities but I do know they are not so well-equipped and they often look very scruffy and undisciplined.

I would say Malaysian troops are generally average though they must have some crack units. Somehow, I still think the fighting spirit is strongest in the Thai and Indonesians.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:09 AM 

As someone has already said we are an army of conscripts. On top of that we are city folks even though most of us often keep fit.
--------------------------
- Not all. We have a smaller professional and active element. But at 50,000-60,000, it`s still bigger than many armies in the world. We have`nt got much choice with our national service. Too bad we are so damn small.

- In spite of the fact that Indonesians and the Thais could presumably be more hardened, the Singaporeans have greater fire-power, tech leverage and are better trained. We can only see how these things cancel each other out in real combat. We won`t be facing the Thais though.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:17 AM 

"@ Daisy
You are just reiterating what you`ve said in chinese.
I aint a native English speaker.That is a fact. And you making a point about this is ridiculous. Don`t start flamming now. I will delete your post which I consider flammatory."

Hey! I only wanted to see what you thought of my Chinese (really, I'm learning it at school), and let you know that people don't speak English like that, and the joke was your English is almost as bad as my Chinese... no harm meant..

And this is the second post of mine you've deleted, the other one was pretty tame as well.

 
 

(Login Microsft)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:20 AM 

what about india and china, pakistan there ones with nukes.. and india has the best navy as they bought new war ships from russia.

also india and pakistan are still testing there nukes, and trying to increase there missile range.


    
This message has been edited by Microsft on Apr 6, 2004 11:21 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:27 AM 

We are talking about South East Asia here, India and Pakistan don't count.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:37 AM 

Anyway, I'll have to say this for our friends from China and India. We are talking about SEA here, so I'd say Singapore is the best. But of course SEA is nothing compared to China or India. As I said before : "Nobody in south east asia is able to fight an "away turf" war. None has good stuff like Tarrawa class amphibious assault ship, none has large numbers of self-propelled SAMs. They will all die in an "away" war."

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:38 AM 

Hey! I only wanted to see what you thought of my Chinese (really, I'm learning it at school), and let you know that people don't speak English like that, and the joke was your English is almost as bad as my Chinese... no harm meant..

And this is the second post of mine you've deleted, the other one was pretty tame as well.

- Unfortunately, I don`t see it that way. My English is fine. I might make mistakes here and there. Same goes for many posters here.
- Also, I don`t see why these posts should be there. It has nothing to do with the argument.
- Your posts could be construed other-wise. Im telling you that as an Asian and chinese.
- To me and many Asians, it is nothing more than a simple flame bait.

 
 

(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:39 AM 

- Unfortunately, I don`t see that way. My English is fine. I might make mistakes here and there. Same goes for many posters here.

Your English is fine. I was only telling you that you shouldn't say that if you want to sound more fluent.

- Also, I don`t see why they should be there.

Who?

- Your posts could be construed other-wise. Im telling you that as an Asian and chinese.

And I'm telling you as an Australian to stop taking things so seriously.

- To me and many Asians, it is nothing more and than a simple flame bait."

Flame bait? Whats there to flame its a joke.

Don't delete harmless posts...

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:41 AM 

And this is a fact seldom mentioned on this forum : Thailand as a Bhuddist nation won't allow the existence of a situation whereby Singapore falls under Muslim rule, as that would make the Strategic Situation in SEA very bad for Thailand.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:42 AM 

Why do you say that sane guy? Wouldn't it be nice if we were all peace-loving buddhist, or just peace-lovers.

SG has no problem protecting itself anyway. Only US could invade SG.

 
 
Faz
(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:50 AM 

Who?

- Your post!

>>Flame bait? Whats there to flame its a joke.

Don't delete harmless posts...>>

- Funny you can couch it in those terms. I certainly don`t think so. But then again, it`s just me and a couple of Asians here. And who was it directed to?

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:52 AM 

"SG has no problem protecting itself anyway. Only US could invade SG."

I'm not sure if that's true. But in a real war, anything can be used, so with nukes, US, UK, China, Russia, France, India (Israel and Pakistan can't coz missiles not long range) can all destroy Singapore. And we shouldn't be talking about invasion, but purely military strength comparison. In that case there are like 16 or 17 nations that are stronger. So don't make it sound like we think very highly of ourselves with statements like this----only US can invade SG.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:53 AM 

"Who?

- Your post!"

So what.

">>Flame bait? Whats there to flame its a joke.

Don't delete harmless posts...>>

- Funny you can couch it in those terms. I certainly don`t think so. But then again, it`s just me and a couple of Asians here. And who was it directed to? "

hehehe you take yourself so seriously. Which is funny because we're on an internet board which is... well... never mind.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:54 AM 

- In spite of the fact that Indonesians and the Thais could presumably be more hardened, the Singaporeans have greater fire-power, tech leverage and are better trained. We can only see how these things cancel each other out in real combat. We won`t be facing the Thais though.

And the Indons and Thais are not that far behind in terms of firepower, training and tech leverage. The Indons will make mincemeat out of the Singaporean conscripts. Singaporeans are perhaps better-trained but training is only training, the general characteristics and upbringing of the individual soldier is more of the deciding factor here and the average Singaporean city-bred conscript is quite frankly not made for offensive fighting in another territory other than Singapore. The motivation and the oomph are quite simply, not there. This is why I find the idea of Singapore taking other territories overly confident and rather ambitious.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:56 AM 

hehehe you take yourself so seriously. Which is funny because we're on an internet board which is... well... never mind.
---------------------------

- Yes. An internet board that does`nt thrive on these on these things. IF that makes us `serious', so be it. We could ill afford such mis-conceptions.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 11:57 AM 

"And the Indons and Thais are not that far behind in terms of firepower, training and tech leverage. The Indons will make mincemeat out of the Singaporean conscripts. Singaporeans are perhaps better-trained but training is only training, the general characteristics and upbringing of the individual soldier is more of the deciding factor here and the average Singaporean city-bred conscript is quite frankly not made for offensive fighting in another territory other than Singapore. The motivation and the oomph are quite simply, not there. This is why I find the idea of Singapore taking other territories overly confident and rather ambitious. "

Yes they are that far behind. SG firepower is far and away the best in SE Asia. The TNI is like a giant paramilitary organization. And basically you are saying the SG boys are soft... well thats probably true but all the same people do amazing things when its a do-or-die situation.

 
 

(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 12:18 PM 

"- Yes. An internet board that does`nt thrive on these on these things. IF that makes us `serious', so be it. We could ill afford such mis-conceptions. "

Yes, we could ill afford such mis-conceptions in such a time of need... LOL

 
 

(Login Microsft)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 12:21 PM 

whats this crap about peoples english is bad???? long as we can understand what you are saying thats all it counts, and i am proud that soo many people from so many differnt countries contrbute in this forum, so please stop offending people about there language.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 12:26 PM 

:'( I wasn't. I'm proud of blablablablabla

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 12:26 PM 

>>Singaporeans are perhaps better-trained but training is only training, the general characteristics and upbringing of the individual soldier is more of the deciding factor here and the average Singaporean city-bred conscript is quite frankly not made for offensive fighting in another territory other than Singapore. The motivation and the oomph are quite simply, not there. This is why I find the idea of Singapore taking other territories overly confident and rather ambitious. ">>

- Training is everything. All other things supplements training. It is how you conduct the training. No other country in SEA sends thier troops all over the world to train; Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Thailand, Brunei, India,etc. If you want to talk about exposure, we are simply head and shoulders above everybody else in SEA.
- How do you know who is more hardened? Who has the will to stay on and fight? What quantitative approaches do you exactly use to measure? How do you measure motivation and your so-called `omph.' under such circumstances? Look at Israel`s conscripts prior to the her wars; you`d think they`ll win against such odds. Look at Vietnam`s rag-tag army? How on earth did they hold back a super-power who had more and than half a million men in Vietnam?
- It is our strategy to come and absorb territories. If we don`t do that; if the fight comes to us in our city, it is surely chaotic for Singapore and the battle is half-lost.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 12:57 PM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 12:49 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 12:27 PM 

:'( I wasn't. I'm proud of blablablablabla
---------------------------

Daisy. Put a sock in it.
And we all love you. Lol

 
 
Anonymous
(Login daisy_cutter)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:01 PM 

Put a sock up it, or anything else that tickles your fancy.

LOL

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:09 PM 

Put a sock up it, or anything else that tickles your fancy.

LOL
---------------------------------------

- sock!!!!!! You got an imagination man. But so do I..lol

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:10 PM 

Training is everything. All other things supplements training. "It is how you conduct the training. No other country in SEA sends thier troops all over the world to train; Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Thailand, Brunei, India,etc. If you want to talk about esposure, we are simply head and shoulders above everybody else in SEA.

-And your forces did poorly in force on force combat exercises in some of these training expeditions. Singaporeans specially scored bad in mountain and jungle warfare exercises which are very much the prevalent environment in the neighboring countries.

Look at Israel`s consripts prior to the her wars; you`d think they`ll win against such odds. Look at Vietnam`s rag-tag army? How on earth did they hold back a super-power who had more and than half a million men in Vietnam?
It is our strategy to come and absorb territories. If we don`t do that; if the fight comes to us in our city, it is surely chaotic for Singapore and the battle is half-lost.

- Review your history lessons. In the wars that Israel won decisively, they were actually fending off the Arab invaders. Its when they INVADED another territory (Lebanon) in the hope of providing a buffer zone before their homeland (notice the similarity?) where they failed miserably (and you should study this particularly well).
The Vietnamese were fighting in their own turf that's why they succeeded in defeating the Americans, unlike the scenario of Singapore fighting in another territory. Exactly why Singaporeans should stay put and defend their homeland at all costs rather than take preemptive actions like the Israelis did in Lebanon. And to think Israel has a much more powerful and experienced military than Singapore.












    
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 6, 2004 1:20 PM


 
 

(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:12 PM 

Hear hear.Only countries in South East Asia.If your country is not in SOUTH EAST ASIA,then shut up.India and China are not in South East Asia last I checked.Otherwise,my geography is very bad and I'm going to fail my exam tomorrow.

No surrender,No mercy,No regret

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:16 PM 

The reason I mentioned those points about Singapore's ground troops is that the originator of this thread said "Best in terms of combat experience, equipment and manpower."

Well, we are rather substantial in terms of manpower if you caount the reservists.

We have the best equipment in air force and navy - and we probably have MORE of these better equipment than anyone else.

In terms of experience none of SEA's airforce and navy has seen any real action except strafing the odd insurgent or chasing down smugglers and pirates.

But when it comes to ground fighting all of SEA's ground forces - with the exception of Singapore - has seen combat. Even peaceful Malaysia sent their troops as armed peacekeepers to get blooded. They have come under fire and conducted themselves in a way the country was proud of.

Singapore, we just send unarmed medics or police officers. Even the japs are sending armed troops overseas again. Why is Singapore being so .... "soft".

Our infantry battalions are easily one of the the most well-armed in the whole Asia Pacific region.

 
 
Rockhound
(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:18 PM 

honestly....

1.Vietnam
2.Laos
3.Thailand
4.Phillipines
5.Singapore/Malaysia
6.Indonesia

to tell u guys seriously... its hard to compare.. all the armies have their pros and cons...

As for that post saying that Singapore will lose.. it isnt so easy to gauge.. Singapore's army is an offensive army... not an invading army.. but more to an aggressor army.. most of the doctrines and units in Singapore are Offensive based... It is crazy to defend the Island.. but it is possible to halt an invasion from actually reaching the island

as for the Number 5 spot.. I can't really decide.. Both armies are equals in my eyes.. Malaysia having more soldiers and Singapore being technologically advanced(Force Multipliers are emphasized in the Singapore Army. Technologically advanced in this sense..)

i added a sixth spot becos i just can't leave out Indonesia.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

huh?

April 6 2004, 1:22 PM 

icefire>

" -And your forces did poorly in force on force combat exercises in some of these training expeditions. Singaporeans specially scored bad in mountain and jungle warfare exercises which are very much the prevalent environment in the neighboring countries."


I'm not disputing your claims but where did you find this data? When did Singapore pit her forces in excercise against who, where and when?

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:25 PM 

hardened soldier?? most battle hardened soldiers are either crippled or dead during the "hardening" process...

and the more "hardened" these soldiers are... the lesser is their number... the result of hardening...

and in the end... no human body can be harder then a bullet.

ultimately... in every nation... in every armed forces... majority of the soldiers would be made up of "soft" inexperienced soldiers...

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:28 PM 

Sg soldiers has been operationally deployed in East Timor as well as in the Gulf recently, they are as professional as the US and OZ troops in in both locations.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:29 PM 

>>And your forces did poorly in force on force combat exercises in some of these training expeditions. Singaporeans specially scored bad in mountain and jungle warfare exercises which are very much the prevalent environment in the neighboring countries.>>

- And where did you exactly hear this from? Or are you shooting from your mouth? There are many exercises we participated in and many we have done well in. We also had some which we did`nt do that well in. And our military is constantly geared towards rectifying these inadequacies...which is why we have so many exercises. How do you quantify and qualify this?And Singapore is not all urban you know...many parts of it are still jungle for training purposes.

>>eview your history lessons. In the wars that Israel won decisively, they were actually fending off the Arab invaders. Its when they INVADED another territory (Lebanon) in the hope of providing a buffer zone before their homeland (notice the similarity?) where they failed miserably (and you should study this particularly well).>>

- And why would we be invading another country? We just take territories to fend off the attacks...which what is ISrael did anyway..which is called forward defence in many circles.
- And no. We will not be occupying another country. We intend to take it and force the aggressors to the negotiating table and then leave.
- To the contrary, I do not think that the ISraelis have failed. They have done well in spite of the odds they faced. It`s the luck of the draw and lesser of two evils..to create that buffer or lose strategic advantage. They are most wise to do that. The losses are expected and the fact that they have kept it low is another feat.

>>The Vietnamese were fighting in their own turf that's why they succeeded in defeating the Americans, unlike the scenario of Singapore fighting in another territory. Exactly why Singapore should stay put and defend their homeland at all costs rather than take preemptive actions like the Israelis did in Lebanon. And to think Israel has a much more powerful and experienced military than Singapore.>>

- Israel has a far more powerful and bigger force dispostion because of the kind of threats it faces. Put us there and you will see a similar deployment. It`s about survival.
- The same drive for survival that makes sense for Singapore to take territories in defending herself.
It would be crazy to let the fight come to us unless we can`t help it. We don`t have any strategic hinterland to withdraw to. Singapore is only 645 sq km.
- And you can`t say we wont be fighting on our own tuft either. Most of SEA is the same. Our troops are trained to be efficient in both jungle and `Fibua'.




    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 6, 2004 1:34 PM


 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:34 PM 

gary>

Really? Were SG troops there to provide an armed presence and were they conducting armed missions like patrols etc?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:41 PM 

It is stupid to say things like "Israel did it because she is much stronger than Singapore". Well Israel's enemies are FAR STRONGER than Singapore's neighbours. If you don't get this point, it is really laughable.

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:41 PM 

SG forces namely the ADF conduct regular patrols in East Timor as there are some cases of rebels hiding..

to tell u seriously.. u gotta be in Singapore... be a Singaporean... serve National Service to understand the Singapore Army and not make such comments... The SAF can take on any adversary when the need arises with superior technology and with motivated soldiers...

and on the sidenote.. SIngapore is a major economic "power" in the region... u'd really be crazy to even attack singapore....

this isnt meant to "flame"

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:45 PM 

Here's my little list:


Real world combat experience/troop hardiness:

1. Philippines
2. Indonesia
3. Burma
4. Malaysia
5. Vietnam

Equipment and training

1. Singapore
2. Malaysia
3. Indonesia
4. Thailand
5. Vietnam

 
 

(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:46 PM 

gary>

Really? Were SG troops there to provide an armed presence and were they conducting armed missions like patrols etc?


Wa liao, you certainly out of touch of what going on in SG.

East Timor detactment has been for quite sometime , I think they are still there, we have a few UH-1H and maybe a platoon to coy level of soldiers over there for peacekeeping patrol both on foot and LSV. I believe also another medical team there.

As for the Gulf, we sent one LHD with NDU for sea patrol over there and a C-130 for transport for Allied troops over there. Both of the Gulf detachment have return back to SG after their tour.

For more info on the SAF , I recommend that you joint this forum for all SAF stuff:

http://www.sgforums.com/?action=forum_display&forum_id=1164

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:47 PM 

Its when they INVADED another territory (Lebanon) in the hope of providing a buffer zone before their homeland (notice the similarity?) where they failed miserably (and you should study this particularly well).
The Vietnamese were fighting in their own turf that's why they succeeded in defeating the Americans, unlike the scenario of Singapore fighting in another territory. Exactly why Singaporeans should stay put and defend their homeland at all costs rather than take preemptive actions like the Israelis did in Lebanon. And to think Israel has a much more powerful and experienced military than Singapore
*******************************************
IceFire
********************************************

Singapore is not an imperial power, we are not going to atack and conquer. But we mention taking ground as a buffer only because you said this
"I agree. Singapore has the most modern armed forces in Southeast Asia, but realistically, its military will never be modern enough nor capable enough to defeat an invading army. Its just too small."
So with "buffer" we nullify your point about Singapore being Small.

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:49 PM 

somehow everyone is forgetting Laos...

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:50 PM 

And further, your point about Israel being able to do this or that but Singapore not------this is simply not true since Israel's enemies are so much stronger than SEA countries. And SG's population compared to Malaysia's is not as great a difference between Israel's population and that of Arab countries, easily 300 million. So our "job" is an easier one, we don't need to be as strong as Israel.

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:51 PM 

Singapore's main weakness is enemy artillery... get them in range and poof... thats where the buffer is needed...

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

huh?

April 6 2004, 1:53 PM 

Rockhound>

"SG forces namely the ADF conduct regular patrols in East Timor as there are some cases of rebels hiding..."



I am Singaporean, Rifle company, Cpl (NS), 2nd PDF, 173 SIR, Bravo Coy, Pl 7. I've lived abroad for over 7 years now. Please tell me, what is an ADF? I've never heard of "ADF" and I didn't read anywhere that we have men on armed duty abroad. 7 years is a long time to be away.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 1:54 PM 

I don't know about Laos. Any info on how strong she is?

 
 

(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:00 PM 

And your forces did poorly in force on force combat exercises in some of these training expeditions. Singaporeans specially scored bad in mountain and jungle warfare exercises which are very much the prevalent environment in the neighboring countries.

Where and when??? LOL
SAF's soldiers has been trained in the thick jungle of Brunei (where the British Gurkhas used to train), the cold mountainous terrain of ROC, the desert terrain of OZ outback, the hot in the day and cold in the night of Thailand , and many other locations in a smaller scale.

So which one are you refering to ? LOL


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Apr 6, 2004 2:04 PM


 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:02 PM 

@tv dog:

Singapore sends various components of its armed forces to friendly countries in Asia for training exercises. Part of these trainings include force on force combat exercises where the Singaporean contingent tests their mettle against the host country's forces in more or less realistic field combat scenarios.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:03 PM 

Gary>

Thanks for the info - yes, VERY out of touch brudder...

What is LHD and NDU huh?

When I left there was only SDU.

Overseas armed mission shiok leh. I would gladly volunteer. But being PDF we'll be the last unit they consider. Although I have to say that my B Coy was easily the most motivated bunch of people. Always kena Best Coy award.

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:05 PM 

I am Singaporean, Rifle company, Cpl (NS), 2nd PDF, 173 SIR, Bravo Coy, Pl 7. I've lived abroad for over 7 years now. Please tell me, what is an ADF? I've never heard of "ADF" and I didn't read anywhere that we have men on armed duty abroad. 7 years is a long time to be away.>--

well they are the Army development force.. they try out new weapons.. doctrines.. and tactics.. most of them are Guards trained and they are the ones in East Timor and involved in the "Tekong Fiasco"

if guards are overtrained infantry...
ADF are halftrained commandos..
hope it helps... i'm not really comfortable at giving more info...scared of "Big Brother" watching


<correction... they are not the onli ones in east timor.. there are also other NS soldiers there too.. and btw... ADF personnel are all regulars>


    
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 6, 2004 2:09 PM


 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:08 PM 

Uh... icefire...

I'm Singaporean. I have been to Taiwan on excercise.

Heng Chun, Pao Li camp No. 4. Horrible fcuking toilets. Awful rice... etc.

But, No, we didn't test out mettle against the local forces.

I'm not saying this never occurs. I know our forces train with other country's forces quite often.


Deleted I just want everyone to know I am from Singapore. It's quite awkward when someone talks to you like you're a foreigner.


    
This message has been edited by tvdog on Apr 6, 2004 2:13 PM


 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:17 PM 

Are the ADF the ones who always play the aggressors during excercise whrn you wear those laser sensor (MILES or MLRES somesuch) things on you?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:19 PM 

Thanks for the info - yes, VERY out of touch brudder...

What is LHD and NDU huh?

When I left there was only SDU


Sorry , typo it is the LSD(Landing Ship Dock), the Endurance not LHD.

NDU-Naval Diving Unit. Something like Navy SEAL of US.


 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:20 PM 

tvdog>
i think thats ppl from ATEC.. lol.. to tell u seriously.. i havent served NS but planning to sign on as a Guards Spec after my last semester.. most things i said here were from word of mouth from actual ADF regulars...

i think u were referring to the soldiers from ATEC who pose as the "aggressor"..


    
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 6, 2004 2:26 PM
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 6, 2004 2:21 PM


 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:23 PM 

@tvdog

oh they do participate in force on force scored exercises sometimes although currently only the more experienced units are allowed to join.

The Singaporean Special Forces are quite good. Its the conscript forces that I find green and wanting.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:33 PM 

Oh, I've seen the Naval Divers when i was atttached to the Seletar camp for some courses. They are tough and all look like body builders. In the morning they do PT runs carrying the 6-man rubber dinghy.

Uh... what was the Tekong Fiasco, then?

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:37 PM 

TVDOG>

the indonesian robbers who landed at Tekong recently...

yeah.. the NDU ppl where probably doing EOD training or something... they can be considered the toughest in Singapore... with some going to the US to go thru BUD/s and undergo SEAL training to gain the SEAL trident

Some of the trainees which come from Singapore even topped their BUD/s classes

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:45 PM 

>>The Singaporean Special Forces are quite good. Its the conscript forces that I find green and wanting.>>

- The Singapore commandoes even top the American special forces in a sharp-shooter`s contest.

- Sorry. The conscript forces are equally well trained. And thay fare better than the armies SEA countries can deploy definetely. The training is made out to nullify the advantages of regular forces. Don`nt you know? Many of our special ops troops are conscripts. The training packages are similar for both conscripts and regular soldiers.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:45 PM 

Sign on in the Guards?

Do your NS first and see if you like it.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

@ Icefire

April 6 2004, 2:46 PM 

Icefire..who are you and where are you from? And where are you posting your messages from ?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:49 PM 

I just want everyone to know I am from Singapore. It's quite awkward when someone talks to you like you're a foreigner.

Forgive him or any Sgporean, read the below link & you will understand:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,244214,00.html?

 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:51 PM 

tvdog
i noe i'll like it... sometimes ppl are borned to do certain things..

 
 

(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 2:58 PM 

oh they do participate in force on force scored exercises sometimes although currently only the more experienced units are allowed to join.

The Singaporean Special Forces are quite good. Its the conscript forces that I find green and wanting.


Actually I find that your statement is more "wanting".

Why? Becos practically all SG army units are mainly consist of conscripts, only a few classified & small units are pure professional and very small in number.

Therefore when there is major exe with foreign troops, it is the mainly the conscripts are involved.

Obviously you dunno know much abt SAF.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 3:05 PM 

All I can say is I'm involve in this silly military business, lol. Cool forum by the way and my first posts here.

 
 

(Login Microsft)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 6 2004, 3:52 PM 

same here, i am new to this forum aswell

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:37 AM 

- Review your history lessons. In the wars that Israel won decisively, they were actually fending off the Arab invaders. Its when they INVADED another territory (Lebanon) in the hope of providing a buffer zone before their homeland (notice the similarity?) where they failed miserably (and you should study this particularly well).
The Vietnamese were fighting in their own turf that's why they succeeded in defeating the Americans, unlike the scenario of Singapore fighting in another territory. Exactly why Singaporeans should stay put and defend their homeland at all costs rather than take preemptive actions like the Israelis did in Lebanon. And to think Israel has a much more powerful and experienced military than Singapore.
**********************************************
IceFire
*********************************************
It is stupid to say things like "Israel did it because she is much stronger than Singapore". Well Israel's enemies are FAR STRONGER than Singapore's neighbours. If you don't get this point, it is really laughable.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:38 AM 

Singapore is not an imperial power, we are not going to atack and conquer. But we mention taking ground as a buffer only because you said this
"I agree. Singapore has the most modern armed forces in Southeast Asia, but realistically, its military will never be modern enough nor capable enough to defeat an invading army. Its just too small."
So with "buffer" we nullify your point about Singapore being Small.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:40 AM 

And further, your point about Israel being able to do this or that but Singapore not------this is simply not true since Israel's enemies are so much stronger than SEA countries. And SG's population compared to Malaysia's is not as great a difference between Israel's population and that of Arab countries, easily 300 million. So our "job" is an easier one, we don't need to be as strong as Israel.

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:41 AM 

I'm putting all these together to show that Ice Fire's point is totally fallacious, since he didn't respond to my points.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:47 AM 

@ sane guy

“And this is a fact seldom mentioned on this forum : Thailand as a Bhuddist nation won't allow the existence of a situation whereby Singapore falls under Muslim rule, as that would make the Strategic Situation in SEA very bad for Thailand.”
 

This religious issue is fact or merely your genuine opinion?

If it is a fact, could u provide any source?

 

@ tvdog

“Uh... what was the Tekong Fiasco, then?”

 

‘Tekong Fiasco’ :

 http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=242808&messageid=1079656749&lp=1080233848


 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:54 AM 

You can't find any link to something like this of course. But what I said is common sense. Just look at Thailand, she has naval ships built by China, and other weapons too. Thais are more allies of a nation consisting mostly of chinese rather than one of muslims. Not because Thais (or I am) are racists, but simply because as non-muslims, we would be alarmed by any strategic change towards muslim domination of SEA. This is realistic, it is never spoken but understood, since we just don't want any change to the strategic situation.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 4:12 AM 

gary>

It's great that Big Brother IS watching. I think this is a great way to make your opinions heard.

It's true to watch out we don't spill the beans on any classified stuff.

Actually, I'm quite happy that SAF has ALWAYS listened to its soldiers.

When CIS introduced 2 weapons SAR-80 and SR-88 and put them on trial with the troops, the feedback was that they didn't like it and SAF never adopted them.

As a recruit I mentioned to the OO that if the instructors REALLY wanted our rifles to be clean, why did they give us 20 mins to clean our weapons and then spend an hour and a half checking them and punishing us for little specks of dust here or there.

I remember everyone in the room clapped.

The next day, with immediate effect, we got much more time to clean our weapons and the instructors spent less time punishing people as they checked weapons.

Other armies weren't so fortunate. The British are still stuck with the SA-80 though it is much better after an expensive retrofit by H&K.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 4:21 AM 

“You can't find any link to something like this of course. But what I said is common sense....”

 

So, this reason that made u state that as a fact?


 
 


(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 4:37 AM 

“Just look at Thailand, she has naval ships built by China, and other weapons too…”

 

LOL

 

Then I could blindly put another example like u:

Kuwait bought MBT from Yugos & US, SPH from China,so?


 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 4:38 AM 

@sane guy -
>>And further, your point about Israel being able to do this or that but Singapore not------this is simply not true since Israel's enemies are so much stronger than SEA countries. And SG's population compared to Malaysia's is not as great a difference between Israel's population and that of Arab countries, easily 300 million. So our "job" is an easier one, we don't need to be as strong as Israel.<<

What’s eating your goat, man? You don’t have much to worry anyway. Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. have nothing to gain if they attack Singapore in the immediate future. Singapore has long outlived its strategic value and is no longer relevant in future conflicts in SEA. There’s no need for a buffer zone since any future invading force intent on capturing the strategically relevant Peninsula and the Indonesian main islands will just bypass your small island and leave you to your own devices as long as your forces do not interfere or become belligerent itself.

>>It is stupid to say things like "Israel did it because she is much stronger than Singapore". Well Israel's enemies are FAR STRONGER than Singapore's neighbours. If you don't get this point, it is really laughable.<<

Now you have interpreted this too literally and differently. Israel’s enemies are of course far stronger than Singapore’s neighbors but they are also FAR MORE hostile to Israel which exactly is not the case with Singapore’s neighbors. I understand Singapore’s paranoia having been easily defeated and utterly devastated by the Japanese in World War II, but that was then and this is now.

Now go and laugh all you can but keep your peace and sleep soundly this time. Singapore will still be there when you wake up. Cheers.



 
 
Anonymous
(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 5:14 AM 

"I understand Singapore’s paranoia having been easily defeated and utterly devastated by the Japanese in World War II"

Who's being paranoid here? Did I say we are going to war? No! It was you who said "I agree. Singapore has the most modern armed forces in Southeast Asia, but realistically, its military will never be modern enough nor capable enough to defeat an invading army. Its just too small."
You can't prove this, and you are the one who talked about war first, you are the one who is paranoid. Or is it you're just trying to change subject since I've shown how stupid your argument is. The main point here is that you claimed "Israel can do such and such, but Singapore can't, because Israel is much stronger". I've shown that point is totally invalid since Israel's enemies are much stronger than SEA nations. Then in stead of answering to the point, you change topic by saying things like "blah blah...paranoia blah blah...."

 
 

(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 5:22 AM 

Anyway, in today's world Japan won't be able to invade Singapore, she doesn't have large amphibious assault ships, or A/C carriers. just for the sake of argument, let's imagine japan sending a small force to singapore, it MUST be a small force since they don't have big transport ships or a large fleet of transport aircraft. In this scenario, I don't think anybody can seriously say that Japan will win.

 
 
Rockhound
(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 6:19 AM 

here's a history lesson..

Singapore was invaded in WW2 because of many factors.. many of the British soldiers gave up due to the fact of questioning whether Singapore is worth their lives. Its not their land you see, so as some of them see it, singapore is not worth dying for. The British also didnt expect the Japanese forces to cross the causeway but anticipated a sea attack from the South. That is why they put up big guns at Pulau Blakang Mati(The island Sentosa). By the time the attack came, they had to reposition the guns to aim at the Island. Even though the guns were aimed towards the island it had the wrong type of rounds. Instead of HE rounds, all they were equipped with were Armour Piercing Rounds. The state of the Royal Air Force in Singapore was also not up to standard as the ones in England. Most of the planes were Biplanes while the Japanese were using Zeros.

Correct me if i am wrong.. this is the first time i have to recall history classes held 8 years ago but generally thats how Japan conquered Singapore.

May I remind u IceFire that every country in South East Asia fell to the might of the Japanese Empire.. It took onli 10 weeks for Malaya and Singapore to be conquered.

if you put it to present time retrospect.. i think that any country in SEA with the current capabilities could fend off an invasion such as that which happened in WW2...(of course.. modern strategy and tactics are a far advanced from those used 60 years ago)


    
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 7, 2004 6:25 AM
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 7, 2004 6:20 AM


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 7:02 AM 

 

“many of the British soldiers gave up due to the fact of questioning whether Singapore is worth their lives. Its not their land you see, so as some of them see it, singapore is not worth dying for.”

 

 

There were also other Commonwealth army: Aussie, India, Malaya etc

 

“The British also didnt expect the Japanese forces to cross the causeway.. "

 

And they cancelled the Operation Matador, which intended to thwart Japanese advancement in Siam 

 

“That is why they put up big guns at Pulau Blakang Mati(The island Sentosa).”

 

And all these gun locations were already well recorded by the Japanese , thanks to their pre-war presence.

 


 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 7:04 AM 

shakes head....

what to do.. what to do.. lol

anywaes.. i should have put foreign forces rather than saying british


    
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 7, 2004 7:05 AM


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 7:08 AM 

:P

I'm also nearly forget about that...it's nearly 15 years ago


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 8:33 AM 

>>What’s eating your goat, man? You don’t have much to worry anyway. Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. have nothing to gain if they attack Singapore in the immediate future. Singapore has long outlived its strategic value and is no longer relevant in future conflicts in SEA. There’s no need for a buffer zone since any future invading force intent on capturing the strategically relevant Peninsula and the Indonesian main islands will just bypass your small island and leave you to your own devices as long as your forces do not interfere or become belligerent itself.>>

- Ah more bullcrap. Singapore is no longer strategic? We are the most powerful economy in SEA. We have the largest port in SEA; the busiest Air-port,etc. The Straits of Malacca is the most important sea-way in Asia and one of the most important in the world and Singapore is at its door-step. The US while not having permanent bases in SEA after Subic, have re-located to Singapore. US ships and planes are constantly in Singapore. An attack on Singapore means an attack on the US. We also happen to be the strongest in SEA and most stable. We are the stabilizing bulwark in SEA and moderate the views of some of our far more out-spoken neighbours. Any US initiatve in the region goes through us as we speak up for them as the region is wary of the super-power. And we have interests too. We will not allow the peninsula to be invaded by a malign force which would eventually oppose Singapore. Singapore is the heart of SEA...control Singapore you can hit anywhere in SEA.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 7, 2004 9:58 AM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 7, 2004 8:47 AM


 
 

(Login DirtyPolitics)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 12:13 PM 

With a round of artillery from Malaysia, Singapore will be flattened in no time. Bye Bye Singapore.

"Nam Quoc Son Ha Nam Quoc Cu"
(The Southern land (Vietnam) belongs to the Southern King)

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 12:31 PM 

Right..fire at us and the American ships and planes based here.



American ships based at Singapore Changi naval base


Anyway;
They won`t have any to fire with. Anything south of Kuantan is detectable by Singapore. And with AWACs our detection range goes further. Moving such large number of artillery units would mean bye bye artillery even before they can be loaded to fire. And why would anyone want to do that? Lose your artillery..it seriously hampers the war effort

 
 
Anonymous
(Login BeyondRouting)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 12:36 PM 

Hi this IceFire seems to have some military background as claimed or atl least have done quite an intensive studies on the military capabilities of Singapore. And yet you are not a Singaporean? Having undergone NS myself I have to say we did go enough training to put up a reasonable fight... but from my own point of view the two and a half yrs don't turn us to be professional... going back for reservist and the IPPT every year will refresh some skills and retain some physical fitness... but it is really just retaining "some" skills and fitness... reservist seems more like a gathering of old friends for me at least.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 12:56 PM 


Hi this IceFire seems to have some military background as claimed or atl least have done quite an intensive studies on the military capabilities of Singapore.
-------------------------------------------

- Nah. He does`nt know a lot about us as attested by the replies made by Singaporeans above to correct him
- Anyway, our conscripts are never meant to be out and out professionals but to defend Singapore. And the training dished out is currently the best in SEA which is our main concern anyway.



    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 7, 2004 1:09 PM


 
 
Rockhound
(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 1:01 PM 

DirtyPolitics

that is why we wont let them get into range... remember the term, "buffer"?

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 1:26 PM 

he is just kidding lah.... if one round of arty can do singapore in.... then one fart from me and the world ecosystem would collapse!! hahahahaa....


    
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Apr 7, 2004 1:26 PM


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 3:49 PM 

@ tvdog

 

"..In terms of experience none of SEA's airforce and navy has seen any real action except strafing the odd insurgent or chasing down smugglers and pirates."

__________________________________________________

 

About navy (w/o considering the outcome):

Skirmishes between

  1. Vietnam & PRC - over Spratly
  2. Malaysia & Indon - during Konfrantasi
  3. (_____________)

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 4:23 PM 

the conflict between PRC and Viets are decades ago.. most of those sailors probably no longer goes to sea...

while during konfrontasi.... both malaysia and indonesia dont really have a navy.. more like paramilitary... and there were no serious or major sea fightings as far as i know...


 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 7 2004, 6:27 PM 

@ lipan

Yes, you are right about Spratlys. But again I maintain that Vietnam is Indochina, not SEA. Confrontasi was very long ago and there wasn't any real naval action was there?


Anyway, I heard this story from a guy who served in a Singapore navy gunboat sometime around 1978 or so. Back then they were still wearing the khaki coloured no. 3.

On patrol they intercepted a boat carrying Vietnamese refugees. After giving them rations of food and water, the RSN captain ordered them to head back out of SG waters. The refugees were very reluctant and I think some arguments developed but the refugee boat started to move away.

Suddenly, someone threw a hand grenade onto the deck of the RSN boat. Luckily, the grenade rolled across the deck and fell into the waters and exploded without harm or injury to the RSN crew.

The crew fired warning shots with their rifles and .50 MGs across the bow of the refugees' boat and then escorted them out of SG waters.


    
This message has been edited by tvdog on Apr 7, 2004 6:34 PM


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 8 2004, 1:00 AM 

"Suddenly, someone threw a hand grenade onto the deck of the RSN boat. Luckily, the grenade rolled across the deck and fell into the waters and exploded without harm or injury to the RSN crew."

 

-That was close.


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 8 2004, 1:51 AM 

“Yes, you are right about Spratlys. But again I maintain that Vietnam is Indochina, not SEA. Confrontasi was very long ago and there wasn't any real naval action was there? ..”

 

No missile back then.

 

One RMN sailor dead, and in retaliation, sunk an Indon’s boat toghther with it’s ‘content’.


 
 

(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 8 2004, 5:03 AM 

@ lipan

wow, any more details?

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 8 2004, 5:12 AM 

Give me  some time for that details....

-Gun boat clash, at night.....and the said sailor's operating the search light. No NVG provided yet

-Err... KD Sri Selangor class.

  


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 8 2004, 9:39 AM 

Singapore was involved in the `Kronfrontasi' as well. Did any of our troops fought? They were minor skirmishes right?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login nanotaku)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 9 2004, 9:09 AM 

Hidup biar merendah diri. Jangan bersikap takbur dan angkuh, kelak diri sendiri yang hancur binasa dan rugi.
Jangan pandang rendah keupayaan orang lain kerana itu adalah sifat buruk yang hanya akan memakan diri sendiri. Harus diingat kalau anda rasa anda bagus, ada orang lain yang lebih bagus dari anda. Dan sesungguhnya
Allah yang Maha Besar lagi Maha Mengatasi segala2nya.
Sekadar peringatan dan nasihat 2 kupang saya, kalau dengar bagus la, kalau tak, tepuk dada tanya selera.

 
 

(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 9 2004, 9:34 AM 

There's the famous story they told us in NS that a section or platoon from SAF was butchered by the Indons because they left their weapons aside and went swimming in the river or something.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 9 2004, 7:56 PM 

There is not much info on the other SEA countries and thier capabilities; LAos, Burma and the Phillipines. They leverage more on man-power as I understand it. But they are not `push-overs' either.

 
 

(Login mhai)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 2:34 AM 

You are right. It happened during the confatation era. It happened in mersing during an patrol. The platoon was led by a sgt as the PC was on leave. Two were torture to death.I forget much of the details. This story was related to me from a retired WO. He seen action both in east and west of malaysia during his service. For your info this platoon were all malays( PC was an englishman) and they die for their country.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login mhai)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 2:41 AM 

sorry location in kota tinggi not mersing.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 6:21 AM 

>>There's the famous story they told us in NS that a section or platoon from SAF was butchered by the Indons because they left their weapons aside and went swimming in the river or something.<<

Were these guys real soldiers? Its hardly believable of them going swimming with no lookouts or overwatch in hostile territory. <edited out..> Even if the PC was not around, the NCO in charge should have seen to it that half of the platoon stood guard while the other half went swimming. Its just common sense you know.




    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 11:09 PM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 9:15 AM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 9:14 AM
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 11, 2004 6:32 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 9:11 AM 

It`s hardly believable that someone can shoot from his hip without any proper knowledge of when it happened and why it happened. And only goes to show the lengths he wil l go to flame up Singaporeans as has been the case for many of his posts in spite of the lack of credibility his posts has. I will take note of this as will all mods.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 10:05 AM 

@faz:
Could you not understand the nuances of the English language? Deleting the phrase right away without the other members and moderators reading it and judging for themselves whether it was inflammatory or not? Is this how you rule this forum? Tightly controlled and regulated just like Singapore? What would happen to the open exchange of ideas and intelligent debates if you just delete every post you personally find offensive? This is not Singapore and if you’re part of the so called “big brother” in your country please refrain from practicing it here. I don’t think that all members of this forum are all Singaporeans and even the Singaporeans would not all agree with your dictatorial and arbitrary actions. You’re so full of self-importance.

I have not compared the soldiers to animals as you alleged. I was just metaphorical when I said that even animals practice the concept of force protection while drinking at waterholes. Impalas do not drink or swim at the same time, some of them act as lookouts to warn the others of approaching predators like lions or cheetahs (and this is true). Now what was wrong with that? Did I say that the soldiers were like impalas or wild animals for that matter? I was just commenting on tvdog’s post that the soldiers’ were ambushed successfully because they left their weapons and went swimming. Any soldier worth his salt (that is if you are one yourself) would instantly see the significance that the enemies were able to catch them by surprise and totally defenseless. The operative phrase here is “left their weapons”. Just because it so happened that they were Singaporean soldiers would not give you the absolute right to declare that my post was flammatory. Soldiers are trained to act like soldiers and foremost of this is to be always on alert and not to let their guard down especially in hostile territory. If you ****up you die. Its as simple as that.

Restore the complete phrasing of my previous post and let the others vote or decide whether my post was inflammatory or not, whether it was pointless or not, and whether it was unknowledgeable of me or not. Then let them correct or point out or counteract my errors.

Please do not make this forum your own little kingdom.




    
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 11, 2004 11:53 AM
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 11, 2004 10:15 AM
This message has been edited by icefire850 on Apr 11, 2004 10:12 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 10:27 AM 

>>@faz:
Could you not understand the nuances of the English language? Deleting the phrase right away without the other members and moderators reading it and judging for themselves whether it was flammatory or not? Is this how you rule this forum? Tightly controlled and regulated just like Singapore? What would happen to the open exchange of ideas and intelligent debates if you just delete every post you personally find offensive? This is not Singapore and if you’re part of the so called “big brother” in your country please refrain from practicing it here. I don’t think that all members of this forum are all Singaporeans and even the Singaporeans would not all agree with your dictatorial and arbitrary actions. You’re so full of self-importance.>>

- The naunces of the english language not-withstanding. It is a fact that those soldiers are from Singapore. And when was that? You mentioned smewhere that someone should review his historical lessons, I think the truth is you should. You mentioned even animals would do a better a job in an incident such as that. If that is not flammatory, I don`t know what is. The point to be taken into consideration is the audience it is directed to..in which case, they are Singaporeans. We would take offence with it.

- And herein in your last post, you make more accusations and grouses about Singapore and the nature we are without fully understanding our circumstances and the context of how we came from. I suggest you refrain from flamming yet again.

- And in case , you don`t know. Your post has`nt been deleted. They are with the mods and owners. And in case you have forgottened, this is`nt first time. ..

>>I have not compared the soldiers to animals as you alleged. I was just metaphorical when I said that even animals practice the concept of force protection while drinking at waterholes. Impalas do not drink or swim at the same time, some of them act as lookouts to warn the others of approaching predators like lions or cheetahs (and this is true). Now what was wrong with that? Did I say that the soldiers were like impalas or wild animals for that matter?>>

- Wrong. Here, you are obviously trying to white-wash what you have said. You said that `even' animals in the wild such as these would be wary of thier position. If that is not comparing, I don`t know what is.

>>I was just commenting on tvdog’s post that the soldiers’ were ambushed successfully because they left their weapons and went swimming. Any soldier worth his salt (that is if you are one yourself) would instantly see the significance that the enemies were able to catch them by surprise and totally defenseless. The operative phrase here is “left their weapons”. Just because it so happened that they were Singaporean soldiers would not give you the absolute right to declare that my post was flammatory.>>

- But of course what with the manner it was phrased and the virtual lack of historical under-pinnnings much less the ignorance that was equally evident in your previous posts. As I`ve said, this is`nt the first time.

>>Soldiers are trained to act like soldiers and foremost of this is to be always on alert and not to let their guard down especially in hostile territory. If you ****up you die. Its as simple as that.>>

- This is not the issue though it might seem to you. Evidently, you`ve missed the point. Comparing Singaporeans to animals is.





    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 11:21 AM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 10:34 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 10:35 AM 

In case, you are not aware, your subtle `put-downs' of Singaporeans will not be missed by us.

 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 10:49 AM 

i agree with you IceFire %100! Faz thinks him and his country is the best in the world and better than everyone els. I would rank Australia as the best defence force of South East Asia after the USA.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 10:58 AM 

>>i agree with you IceFire %100! Faz thinks him and his country is the best in the world and better than everyone els. I would rank Australia as the best defence force of South East Asia after the USA.>>

Before Faz censor ur statement and u would acuse him for picking on u yada yada, let me make this very clear to you..

Read this :Aussie_boy, what u had said is provocative and isnt relevent to our thread here!

**On whether Australia could be rank above Singapore, you are most welcome to debate over it here rather than just giving a crude statement which prove nothing.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.


    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Apr 11, 2004 11:06 AM
This message has been edited by Falconone on Apr 11, 2004 11:01 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:23 AM 

i agree with you IceFire %100! Faz thinks him and his country is the best in the world and better than everyone els.
----------------------------------------------
- Never in my posts have I said that. You are more than welcome to look for it.
- I dunno why Australia is in this? But if you want to compare, feel free to do so.

 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:29 AM 

Why is Australia in this? I’ll tell you why, SEA is right above Australia and in our sphere of interest.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login sane_guy2)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:30 AM 

"i agree with you IceFire %100! Faz thinks him and his country is the best in the world and better than everyone els. I would rank Australia as the best defence force of South East Asia after the USA."
-----Dave
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Boy, are you stupid or what? Australia isn't in South East Asia. We are talking about South East Asian nations here. And just for your info, I've said a long time ago that Australia is better than Singapore. (Fellow singaporeans, please, I understand some of you would like to argue over this, but we've had enough of this. And it IS TRUE that Australia's defence budget is nearly double ours. How can they not be better? Please don't argue over this anymore, remember there was a BIG flame war in the past, and it was a really boring topic. Our Indian and Chinese friends don't have to waste their time reading that crap.) But most of the time, we are only comparing SEA nations, so please leave yourself out of this.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:34 AM 

Sorry Sane_guy. A post like this would require a response. I would have it known that official military budgets are one thing and strength and defence are another. They have to spend more due to the nature of thier own domestic system and the kind of defence industry they have. I do not think that Australia is the best and many would agree. I would agree that they play a role. But they are not the best.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 11:39 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:37 AM 

Why is Australia in this? I’ll tell you why, SEA is right above Australia and in our sphere of interest.
------------------------------------------------------

- By that contention, every SEA country would be in each other`s sphere of influence.
- And what crap is this sphere of influence thingy? No SEA country is powerful enough or for that matter, Oceania could do anything to change the current state of events by out-right military force...if that is what you mean.

 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:45 AM 

Faz look at Indonesia for instance. That’s our major concern for the Australian defense force. Its in Asia, we have an air force base in Malaysia because of this. Sure I understand that Australia is not part of Asia, we are our own continent but the fact of the matter is that’s where our focus is at. Singapore is the only real modern defense force in south East Asia if we are only talking about countries in SEA. Everything els is a joke.

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:46 AM 

- This is not the issue though it might seem to you. Evidently, you`ve missed the point. Comparing Singaporeans to animals is.

Faz, I admire your grasp of the English language, you’re very fluent in it but sometimes you take metaphors and figures of speech very literally. Now where exactly in my post have I compared Singaporeans to animals? You have edited my post on purpose so you could replace my phrase with one of your own invention. By putting false words such as these “Comparing Singaporeans to animals” in my mouth, its you who is trying very hard to inflame the feelings of your fellow Singaporeans. You are so blinded by your superciliousness and false pride that you resort to low blows.

I fully believe that the members, moderators, and owners of this forum are mature and democratic enough to fully discern the truth, relevance and meaning of my post.

Now if what you alleged was true (and it is not) that I have compared the soldiers to animals then all for the better – they would have been alive today.


My phrase about the animals: …the impalas while drinking at a waterhole… some of them act as lookouts to watch for predators like lions or cheetahs…thus warning the rest of the herd of the approaching danger…

Judging on your allegation that I compared the soldiers to the animals then this scenario would have come out (the soldiers here doing exactly what the impalas did while at the waterhole):

…upon seeing the river, some of the troops wanted to swim so the NCO posted lookouts and guards just in case the enemies jump on them, as it happened, the lookouts were able to detect the approaching enemies first and signaled a warning, the swimmers were able to extract safely from the river and joined their comrades in fighting off the attackers…

Now you see my point? I am not putting down Singaporeans, I am stating this from a tactical point of view (I think all the real soldiers in this forum would agree with me). I think its you that’s trying to inflame other Singaporeans by falsely accusing me of “Comparing Singaporeans to animals” and fully unable to substantiate it. Instead, you edit posts and accuse me unfairly because the others could no longer read the post in its real context.

 
 
Faz
(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 11:50 AM 

Faz look at Indonesia for instance. That’s our major concern for the Australian defense force. Its in Asia, we have an air force base in Malaysia because of this. Sure I understand that Australia is not part of Asia, we are our own continent but the fact of the matter is that’s where our focus is at. Singapore is the only real modern defense force in south East Asia if we are only talking about countries in SEA. Everything els is a joke.
--------------------------------------------------
- Well. Of course it`s australia`s concern.Same with other SEA nation. If Australia is to implode, it will similarly be SEA`s concern. But to talk in terms of sphere of influence in the sense that any SEA/Oceania country can come in and change the govt,etc is a joke. No one can.
- You don`t have an air-force base in Malaysia.
- I would`nt call any other SEA countries as being a joke either. Vietnam is a case in point. The proof is in the eating. You`ll only know when they come up against one another.

 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:07 PM 

Sorry Sane_guy. A post like this would require a response. I would have it known that official military budgets are one thing and strength and defence are another. They have to spend more due to the nature of their own domestic system and the kind of defence industry they have. I do not think that Australia is the best and many would agree. I would agree that they play a role. But they are not the best.


Faz take a note from Snane_guy. We (Australia) are better. Period. We have more money; we have one of the highest trained defence forces in the world. We have official allies such as America, England, New Zealand and Canada. With that we get bigger and better benefits. Such as the echelon, the worlds most advanced and powerful intelligence organization. Every time we go to war or lead Peacekeeping missions for the UN we get nothing but praise. We have yet to lose a single solider in Iraq. The reason being we know how to tackle the local’s. We make friends instead on enemies. Our Special Forces the SAS are considered the best. We have had more experience in combat than Singapore. But that being said, it’s great to see a country like Singapore doing a lot with a little. Little in terms with the world, not SEA. The gap in money and technology is huge between Singapore and the rest of SEA.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:08 PM 

>>Faz, I admire your grasp of the English language, you’re very fluent in it but sometimes you take metaphors and figures of speech very literally. Now where exactly in my post have I compared Singaporeans to animals? You have edited my post on purpose so you could replace my phrase with one of your own invention. By putting false words such as these “Comparing Singaporeans to animals” in my mouth, its you who is trying very hard to inflame the feelings of your fellow Singaporeans. You are so blinded by your superciliousness and false pride that you resort to low blows.>>

- There are two ways for your audience to discriminate and discern your posts. One, take it metaphorically or two as a flame bait. It should`nt be there. And I certainly take it with a decent amount of offence whichever way you try to present your side of the argument. At the end of the day, it is the audience that it is directed too who would feel the sting in such comments.

>>I fully believe that the members, moderators, and owners of this forum are mature and democratic enough to fully discern the truth, relevance and meaning of my post.>>

- They will see the point that this phrase would be construed just as easily with contempt and which is why it was edited out. They are with the rest of the mods and owners. People don`t have the time to come in and appreciate the metaphors,etc in all its relevance if what you say holds true and will most readily read it literally. Many flames have started like-wise. It is unfortunate but it should`nt be there.

>>Now if what you alleged was true (and it is not) that I have compared the soldiers to animals then all for the better – they would have been alive today.>>
Judging on your allegation that I compared the soldiers to the animals then this scenario would have come out (the soldiers here doing exactly what the impalas did while at the waterhole):

…upon seeing the river, some of the troops wanted to swim so the NCO posted lookouts and guards just in case the enemies jump on them, as it happened, the lookouts were able to detect the approaching enemies first and signaled a warning, the swimmers were able to extract safely from the river and joined their comrades in fighting off the attackers…

Now you see my point? I am not putting down Singaporeans, I am stating this from a tactical point of view (I think all the real soldiers in this forum would agree with me). I think its you that’s trying to inflame other Singaporeans by falsely accusing me of “Comparing Singaporeans to animals” and fully unable to substantiate it. Instead, you edit posts and accuse me unfairly because the others could no longer read the post in its real context.

- You ought to base your comment in the historical context that it was derived.I asked you to check your history and I still do to see when it took place and why. It has no relevance to the present but it could very well be taken as such and thus the point of contention. And besides, I object to the use of such metaphors anyway. In essence, it was an un-necessary comparison which you could just as well made without and still make your point.

- Neither did you choose to elaborate on the above in the first instance which would have provided some measure of under-standing but nevertheless should`nt be there at all. Making a point about soldiers coming to a water-hole like animals is far beyond any reasonable need to make a point. Your audience would have understood it better minus the subtle offence that comes with it.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:09 PM 

>>Fellow singaporeans, please, I understand some of you would like to argue over this, but we've had enough of this. And it IS TRUE that Australia's defence budget is nearly double ours.<<

Sorry Saneguy, i like to bet to differ. I will say that the SAF is stronger than ADF. You cant just compare the strenght of both Armed Forces by the mere comparisome their defence budget, there are other factors of which we have to consider too.

If u are comfortable, u can certainly open another thread on that motion. But base on the past debates which i had participated personnally, im still not convinced that Australia have a stronger armed force than Singapore.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:21 PM 

>>We have more money; we have one of the highest trained defence forces in the world.<<

Same here for Singapore.

>>We have official allies such as America, England, New Zealand and Canada. With that we get bigger and better benefits.<<

Same here for Singapore.

>>Such as the echelon, the worlds most advanced and powerful intelligence organization.<<

Echelon is not an organization, it is a system. There are sensitive articles relating Singapore to Australia and i do not wanna elaborate on that.

>>Every time we go to war or lead Peacekeeping missions for the UN we get nothing but praise.<<

Well, I believe our Soldiers won great respect from both the locals and the other foreign Soldiers in INTERFET. Australian and New Zealander soldiers had been reported impressed by our Soldiers in Timor Leste. One of our generals had been elected to be the commander in chief of the INTERFET force.

>>We have yet to lose a single solider in Iraq.<<

Are u saying that Australia have better soldiers than US, Spain, Britian ? I believe, alot of the forumners here will like to differ. U cant just amplify Australian's war experience to justify that the ADF is stronger.

Simple questions for u: How many percent of the ADF experienced real combat? Which Armed force (victor or loser) is born with fighting experiences? and lastly, the Arabs had more fighting experiences than the Israelis, but why were they the losers?


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.


    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Apr 11, 2004 12:26 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:32 PM 

>>We have more money; we have one of the highest trained defence forces in the world.<<

- These are structural cost differences within each country. Singapore has a defence industry that are supportive of us at practically every level. It brings down costs. We make tanks, IFVs, APCs, SPHS, stealth ships, missiles, UAVS, Hales, rifles, etc. You don`t. Also, Australia has to cater to the drain on costs that goes elsewhere other than equipment alone. Australia is also bigger, and costs on moving assets are magnified. You are generalising and that cannot be useful comparison.

 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 12:51 PM 

Quote

>>We have more money; we have one of the highest trained defence forces in the world.<<
Same here for Singapore.

-We have more money than you and I say we train harder too.

>>We have official allies such as America, England, New Zealand and Canada. With that we get bigger and better benefits.<<
Same here for Singapore.

-Currently Singapore has no official allies, even Faz will tell you that one. You are Neutral!

>>Such as the echelon, the worlds most advanced and powerful intelligence organization.<<
Echelon is not an organization, it is a system. There are sensitive articles relating Singapore to Australia and i do not wanna elaborate on that.

-Look up Echelon, it’s an organization and a system! Read before you post ffs! We have better intelligence period.

>>Every time we go to war or lead Peacekeeping missions for the UN we get nothing but praise.<<
Well, I believe our Soldiers won great respect from both the locals and the other foreign Soldiers in INTERFET. I had watch footage of Australian and New Zealander soldiers praising our guys

-We lead INTERFET and ran the show, did you? No. How many troops you send, 100? We had a couple of thousand troops. I’m sure you guys did well and did get praise from us but we ran the entire operation. I don’t think Singapore would have the balls to lead an operation into Indonesia to stabilise east Timor. To worried about pissing them off. All of South East Asia sat on their ass and did nothing and Australia was the only one that did something.

>>We have yet to lose a single solider in Iraq.<<
Are u saying that Australia have better soldiers than US, Spain, Britian ? I believe, alot of the forumners here will like to differ. U cant just amplify Australian's war experience to justify that the ADF is stronger. A simple question for u, how many percent of the ADF experience real combat?

We have had much more combat experience than you anyway and to say experience means nothing is just plain stupid. I never said we are better than anyone ells in the coalition. I’m just saying we know a thing or two when it comes to these kind of operations.

So get over it mate. In till you lead or participate in major world operations in a large scale. You wont get the respect you are after. All you do is talk and that’s abut it.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:07 PM 

We`ve been through this before. So what if there is experience. Some countries are constrained by other factors than simply sending in troops. Notably, it is more important for Australia to do so than Singapore. Recently, PM Howard said that rather than weapons of mass destruction, the reason for coming to IRAQ is the alliance it has with the US. Singapore is not hobbled by that. And it has lot to do with her foriegn policy demands as well.
Also. Did you send all 25,000 of your army there? No. Thousands of troops? You mind stating how many with source and links? Not all 25,000 troops Im certain.
And we give a heck about praise and respect. If that is what an armed forces are after, then it says much about the armed forces of that country. What is important is the protection it gives to the country. It is simply irrelevant to measure experience against capability. More than 90% of the world`s countries have not been in wars since WW2. You can`t say they are less capable than one that has. Anyone who does so is simply feeding on notions of superiority that is unqualified

 
 

(Login icefire850)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:09 PM 

- >They will see the point that this phrase would be construed just as easily with contempt and which is why it was edited out. They are with the rest of the mods and owners. People don`t have the time to come in and appreciate the metaphors,etc in all its relevance if what you say holds true and will most readily read it literally. Many flames have started like-wise. It is unfortunate but it should`nt be there<

And you have the temerity to judge people’s opinions base on your own? Are you really this omniscient and omnipotent? I don’t know how you would take this but I think you would be a very effective prime minister of Singapore.

- >You ought to base your comment in the historical context that it was derived.I asked you to check your history and I still do to see when it took place and why. It has no relevance to the present but it could very well be taken as such and thus the point of contention. And besides, I object to the use of such metaphors anyway. In essence, it was an un-necessary comparison which you could just as well made without and still make your point.<

It was a tactical event and nothing else. And because of this, it ought to be studied and dissected for what it was to prevent future ***k ups of similar nature.


- >Neither did you choose to elaborate on the above in the first instance which would have provided some measure of under-standing but nevertheless should`nt be there at all. Making a point about soldiers coming to a water-hole like animals is far beyond any reasonable need to make a point. Your audience would have understood it better minus the subtle offence that comes with it.<

Another literal translation of yours. In the the Sarangani and other grasslands in Africa, it is but natural for animals to gather around a waterhole (river, lake, pond, etc.) to drink water and cool off. Naturally, predators patrol such places because of the presence of prey in large numbers. I didn’t mean to say that the soldiers were there to lap water like animals.

God, I have enough of these. I surrender. I give up. Being shot at by Iraqi insurgents would be preferable than reasoning with this guy.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:14 PM 

>>Currently Singapore has no official allies, even Faz will tell you that one. You are Neutral!<<

LOLZ, do u need official allies jus to stand up straight? Wat is the FPDA to Singapore? Unofficial? Do we have to be an official ally of the US just to amplify our ties? I believe our FTA and Defence Agreements with the US speak louder than a mere official statement that we are allies.

>>-Look up Echelon, it’s an organization and a system! Read before you post ffs! We have better intelligence period.<<

Echelon is a system not an organisation.

[quoted]:
Echelon is a system used by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) to intercept and process international communications passing via communications satellites. It is one part of a global surveillance systems that is now over 50 years old. Other parts of the same system intercept messages from the Internet, from undersea cables, from radio transmissions, from secret equipment installed inside embassies, or use orbiting satellites to monitor signals anywhere on the earth's surface. The system includes stations run by Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, in addition to those operated by the United States. Although some Australian and British stations do the same job as America's Echelon sites, they are not necessarily called "Echelon" stations. But they all form part of the same integrated global network using the same equipment and methods to extract information and intelligence illicitly from millions of messages every day, all over the world.[/quoted]
http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/6929/1.html

>>-We lead INTERFET and ran the show, did you? No. How many troops you send, 100?<<

For over the years, we had sent 1200+ of our guys there. And thats the required amount. We dun sent more, we dun sent less.

>>All of South East Asia sat on their ass and did nothing and Australia was the only one that did something.<<

Singapore do not have a consitution that allow us to interfere other's business without the consent of the incharge body. Once the UN call for Singapore to get our ass involve, we sent in our troops immediately.

That explain why Singapore did not sent in our troops before UN call for us.

>>We have had much more combat experience than you anyway and to say experience means nothing is just plain stupid.<<

When did i say experience means nothing? It seems like you have a habit of misquoting pple. I think u are very much a confused person. Well i wont blame u.

>>I never said we are better than anyone ells in the coalition. I’m just saying we know a thing or two when it comes to these kind of operations.<<

U took the initiative to explain how well ADF is because she do not have any casualties. Then i counter ur arguement by saying if that is so, how are u going explain the relatively high casualty rate the other forces are experiencing without implying that the other forces are weaker?

>>So get over it mate. In till you lead or participate in major world operations in a large scale. You wont get the respect you are after. All you do is talk and that’s abut it.<<

Do U think the alot of people respect Australia due her effort in the gulf? I dun think So.

The SAF is well respected during excercises and that i believe u know. It is jus so fortunate that Singapore do not have a chance to face combat and i do not wish Singapore will go into combat footing jus to yield respect.



-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.


    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Apr 11, 2004 1:16 PM


 
 

(Login Scope_SASR)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:16 PM 

Faz and Falconone are just stubin Asians like the rest of SEA. I’m sure the Australian defence force gets more respect from china than these people. Well im over it. I know we are better and in till they get some facts to say other wise i'll leave it as that.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:22 PM 

>>And you have the temerity to judge people’s opinions base on your own? Are you really this omniscient and omnipotent? I don’t know how you would take this but I think you would be a very effective prime minister of Singapore.>>

- Don`t change the topic. You have compared a bunch of Singapore soldiers to a bunch of animals around a water-hole. That would be offensive to many people.

- >You ought to base your comment in the historical context that it was derived.I asked you to check your history and I still do to see when it took place and why. It has no relevance to the present but it could very well be taken as such and thus the point of contention. And besides, I object to the use of such metaphors anyway. In essence, it was an un-necessary comparison which you could just as well made without and still make your point.<

>>It was a tactical event and nothing else. And because of this, it ought to be studied and dissected for what it was to prevent future ***k ups of similar nature.>>

- Who is opposing its necessity for study? Anyway, I asked you. When it occured and why? You left out the historical context. It would never have happen today.

- And what relevance it has to animals in its..a...this importance of yours for study purposes?

- I`ve said it before. IT is an un-necessary comparison you could do without and it offends.

>>Another literal translation of yours. In the the Sarangani and other grasslands in Africa, it is but natural for animals to gather around a waterhole (river, lake, pond, etc.) to drink water and cool off. Naturally, predators patrol such places because of the presence of prey in large numbers. I didn’t mean to say that the soldiers were there to lap water like animals.>>

- Did you bring this up in the post which started it all to massage the way your post was phrased so that it would at least offer some reasoning for the comparison? You did`nt. Bringing it up now does`nt mitigate the case.

- Point is. Comparing the citizens of a country to bunch of animals is unacceptable. Your point about it being a good case study is valid though it certainly has no relevance now in Sg`s case. You could have made your case minus the comparison which many of us would find demeaning.



 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:22 PM 

>>I’m sure the Australian defence force gets more respect from china than these people. Well im over it. I know we are better and in till they get some facts to say other wise i'll leave it as that<<

Can u quote when me and Faz disrespect Australia?

I dun think we are disrespecting Australia when we say that the SAF is better than the ADF. If it is so, u are just one of the few people who cant take criticism.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:25 PM 

>>Faz and Falconone are just stubin Asians like the rest of SEA. I’m sure the Australian defence force gets more respect from china than these people. Well im over it. I know we are better and in till they get some facts to say other wise i'll leave it as that.>>

- The facts have been pointed out time and again about the ADF. We are all aware of its capabilities,ORBAT,etc ; just like the rest of SEA.
- Enough of you flamming SEA asians as being stubborn,3rd world ,etc.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 11, 2004 2:14 PM


 
 

(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 1:32 PM 

some Aussies feel threathened of asians, can't blame them, anywaes, seriously, the SG Armed Forces are a "bang for the buck" organisation


    
This message has been edited by sidestep1984 on Apr 11, 2004 1:32 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login mhai)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 3:28 PM 


 
 

(Login mhai)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 3:31 PM 

attached above is the funeral of one of the men died during the ambush attended by deputy prime minister Dr Toh Chin Chye. This men are from the 2th singapore infanty regiment. Total death was 8 men.


    
This message has been edited by mhai on Apr 11, 2004 3:41 PM


 
 

psyence
(Login air_assault)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 4:17 PM 

awwwwwwwwwww

so it's dave again, trying to argue the supremacy of the adf again.

let's all agree for once that the adf is the most powerful force in the world. just to make him happy.


happy easter.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 6:28 PM 

I have no doubt the ADF is very experienced and a very capable fighting force of professionals. And very well-armed, too. The Kiwis too are very good fighting men, probably fantastic infantrymen, too.

But to the point of this thread, ADF and NZDF are NOT in SEA. So end of debate.

I will not go into the fray and say who is the better fighting force.

Singapore's, I might add, is a defence force made up of conscripts like Israel. We are not structured like Australia's force of professionals. I leave to you to decide if that makes SAF better or worse than ADF - or comparable.

And actually, if you look at the size of the Australian land mass, they actually have a much smaller defence budget per square inch than tiny little Singapore. In the whole of Asia, I dare say SIngapore's is the most heavily-defended piece of real-estate inch for inch, dollar for dollar.

NZ's defence budget is virtually non-existent and they have recently all but dismantled their airforce leaving it to the Aussies to defend NZ airspace. Therefore, yet another burden falls on Australia, stretching their defence dollar even thinner.

So Australia does have a very credible force of fighting professionals, not to be belittled. And us Singapore - as someone did say - has done very admirably for a tiny country with so little. Absolutely no one in this region dares to push us around as everyone knows we have SO MUCH ordnance sitting around we would not hesitate to use them.


    
This message has been edited by tvdog on Apr 11, 2004 9:17 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 7:13 PM 

Thanks for your comments TV-Dog. Singapore still has a larger professional and active component TV-Dog. But this is a done and said affair. We`ve have had this debate many times long ago and it can only be wondered why it has been brought up again.

>>I will not go into the fray and say who is the better fighting force.>>

- It was never about this. Our good friend there decided to have a go at Singapore again after noticing an argument being debated between me and another guy about Singapore troops.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 7:50 PM 

>>attached above is the funeral of one of the men died during the ambush attended by deputy prime minister Dr Toh Chin Chye. This men are from the 2th singapore infanty regiment. Total death was 8 men.>>

- May they rest in peace.
- Singapore in the 1960s, during the time of its founding, is`nt Singapore today. Im grateful.

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 11 2004, 9:07 PM 

The story told to us during our recruit days were that these chaps were from 1 SIR. And this story is used to illustrate to us why we have to have our weapons with us AT ALL TIMES. Even when you're taking a ahem... dump.

I'm sure there are countless version of this story - the one I heard was that the Indon commandos even dispensed with using their firearms since these guys were unarmed. They launched into them with machetes.

This story tells me one thing about the Indons: if ever you get into a war with them, expect no quarter. Respond accordingly.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login LtBen)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 12 2004, 6:56 AM 

IceDog...cool stuffs...

 
 
daisy_cutter
(Login daisy_cutter)

icefire850

April 12 2004, 7:17 AM 


icefire850 I agree Faz you should take it easy with the editing.

Faz, Australia is in the SE Asian defence forces forum for a reason; two actually, one that it would be rather boring forum with 4 Australians.... and two that Australia's security is hugely dependent on security in SE Asia.

P.S. vs threads are stupid.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 12 2004, 7:53 AM 

@ Daisy-cutter

The statement about animals and Singapore soldiers who died fighting for Singapore in the 1960s should`nt be there.Nothing else was edited out. The gist of the comment has always been present. This issue is ended. Thank You

Who says Australia can`t be here? But this thread is about about SEA per ser and no one else as many others have pointed out up there.


 
 
Anonymous
(Login thainogkok)
WAFFer

Untitled

April 16 2004, 4:58 PM 

Why you guy keep saying singapore have the best traning -- the fact is they has no place for train!!!! -- they have to use jungle in kanchanaburee,Thailand for traning - in contrast miritary personal of indo vietnam thai burma malay practically live and petrol in jungle which give them more expert.

 
 

(Login thainogkok)
WAFFer

Untitled

April 16 2004, 5:26 PM 

my list

Airforce
1.singapore - for technology , for no. of aircarft , pilot skill
2.Malay - better weapon (AA 10,11,12)
3.Thailand - fair technology, for no. of aircarft , pilot skill
4.vietnam
5.meanma
6.indo

Army
1.vietnam - win over america tell every thing
2.Thailand - no. of personal ,fire powwer, vietnam wor , border confict with burma,laos,vietnam,cambodia (oh **** ! why my country has a lot enymee ) , communist insurgency , terrorist in sout border , peace keeping in timor, afgun ,and now iraq ,
3.malaysia - communist insurgency
4.indo - terrorist
5.burma - wor with shan state
6.singapore -- ????

sorry for my spelling











 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 3:56 AM 

@ thainogkok

Welcome to WAFF & Asia-Pac...

We've awaited any new member from Thailand, and now u'r here. TQ

 

Don't hesitate to contribute, should u 've anything to share with us.


 
 

(Login puml)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 5:02 AM 

It always nice to read opinion from the ppl of SEA countries other than Malaysia and Singapore.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 5:09 AM 

>>Why you guy keep saying singapore have the best traning -- the fact is they has no place for train!!!!<<

I agree we have no place to train in Singapore. But we certainly have places to train elsewhere.

Primary-secondary Jungle/Swamps:
Singapore
Brunei
Thailand

Desert-arid terrain:
Shoalwater bay, Australia
India
USA

Mountaineous terrain:
Taiwan
Perhaps India

Temperate (Cold) terrain:
Taiwan
New Zealand
France

* Eventhough Singapore is small, we have soldiers training in tropical, desert and temperate terrains all over the world. We have our soldiers training in almost any landform u can find on earth, especially the region we will most likely be fighting in. Add the total area that our soldiers are training in, u will get a landmass bigger than the whole of Thailand.

So now my question is, eventhough Thailand is relatively big, how many terrains and landform your soldiers are familar with? How many square kms of land ur government can allocate for the training of your troops? Is that area bigger than our training areas all over the world?

With ur findings at hand, are u now satisfied that Singapore have a better training system?

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login puml)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 5:30 AM 

One week of training in the jungle and two weeks of training in the mountain every six months does not mean the soldiers are expert in jungle and mountain warfare.

I doubt Singapore army have ever spend more than 1 month in the jungle for training and definitely not in real war. I guess and I might be wrong, the only time (and nearest) Singapore in real war is in Iraq for 2 months and they never fire a single shot.


 
 
Rockhound
(Login sidestep1984)
Soldiers

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 6:35 AM 

thats y its the quality of time spent in the jungle...not the quantity

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 17 2004, 1:55 PM 

Just want to add some points to this debate.I am adding points on the army alone.

Battle experiences:
There are some armies in SEA that have involved in fighting against insurgency and some peacekeeping operations, but actually none of the armies have been involved in any large scale coventional combined arms warfare up to at least a Bde level except Vietnam( i.e. involved in a war not skirmishes or COIN).

Even for Vietnam with experiences in 70s against the US, the ability to wage a large scale conventional modern warfare of today involving all the arms of the army(infantry, armour, arty, signal, recon, air assets etc) is questionable becos the last war they fought is almost 30 years ago.

With the arrival of new technologies(UAV, Satellites, precision weapons, C4ISR etc), doctrine has to keep on changing to meet new threats as well as new methodology of fighting.

Training :
Most of the SEA armies were armed and geared toward COIN operations till the 90s, the reason is becos that is their immediate threats which included nations like Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillipines etc.

Therefore they are not geared to fight in large scale combined arms warfare, another reason for that is also budget problem, to have such capability, the armies need not only the assets for combined arms(helos,new arty pieces, armour, communication sytem etc), you also need to have consistent training in large scale combined arms exercise in Bde & Div level to hone the synergistic effect of combined arms operations.( these large scale exercise also cost large amount of money to do so annually)

Singapore Army(SAF) has already formed combined arms div since the early 80s and have consistent large scale combined arms in Bde/Div exercise annually since the 80s.

For all I know, the SAF is the first army in SEA to have a operational combined arms Div, Malaysia is only just forming their combined arms Bde at the moment with asset still coming in(new helo for the army),Thailand is going toward that direction but how far is it I am not too sure, should be more advance than Malaysia becos the consistant Cobra Gold exercise with US and SAF.

Indonesia , Philipines are still fighting insurgency and with their poor economies, I dun think they will able to so in the near future.
Likewise for nations like Vietnam ,Cambodia, Burma etc.

Another thing is that the SAF is always having training with some of the world best experiences army in the world and constantly learning from them the latest doctrines and fighting tactics from the US,UK ,OZ and Israeli.

Therefore at the moment, no nations in SEA are as well prepare for large scale combined arms warfare as the SAF.

Assets :
At this moment, talking abt orbat, I think it will be either the Thai or Vietnamese.
For Thailand, they have abt 300MBT and some light tanks,800 APC and a few hundred arty pieces. Mostly western weaponary.

For Vietnam, abt 1700 MBT/light tanks, 900 APC and more than 2000 arty pieces of all calibres.
The problem with the Vietnamese is that most their weaponary are of old russian origin and most are obsolete today.

SAF should lies third in this aspect, with their 100+ MBT, 372 lighttanks , 1700 APC/IFV and more than 200 arty pieces. The advantages that the SAF has over the Thai and Vietnamese are that SAF has more modern weaponary and at the same time , the ability to build more becos Singapore has their own indigenous designed weaponary like APC/IFV, arty pieces and the future light tanks etc which she could manufactured more if neccessary.

Technology:
I think I dun need to explain which army in SEA is the best in this respect.
The SAF now is already harnessing the latest technology in term of RMA for the army now.

With UAVs both imported as well as indigegous designed, military capable satellites already in space ( better one coming with joint collaboration with Israeli), coming UCAV and UGV , modern electronics warfare, a new battle network system etc. which means they are most high tech army in SEA.

The SAF has been experimenting this technology and have already formed purely NCW bde for evaluation, the budget has already increase to a fully network army by the end of the decade. She will be among first few army in the world to do so. This will mulitply the ability of SAF further.

In conclusion, I will not stated which army is the best in SEA becos it is subjective, but I believe training for large combined arms warfare and technology play a big part in this respect.

Just look at the Iraqi, she has one the biggest army in the world, with 8 years of fighting exeperiences in large scale with Iran, and yet unable to last long against the most modern army of the world and one of the most well trained, the US army!!!


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Apr 17, 2004 6:00 PM
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Apr 17, 2004 2:06 PM


 
 

(Login thainogkok)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 23 2004, 4:48 PM 

I think some countre in SEA have border in jungle or moutian must estabish check-point
and sent military personal to station in check-point or sent platoon to recon in jungle
......I mean they must live their live 3 or6 mount in there (for paramillitary - all time that they be
soldier)

so they know how to survive in jungle,they know their terrain that they have to combat more
than countri that doesn't have this,so they are more expert anyway

-------
"So now my question is, eventhough Thailand is relatively big, how many terrains and landform your soldiers are familar with? How many square kms of land ur government can allocate for the training of your troops? Is that area bigger than our training areas all over the world?"


1.I don't know what thai soldiers familar with ,but i guess we musttt familar with a terrains we have
2. I don't know How many square kms of land government can allocate for the training, but i think
thailand have enough,if we doesn't have enough we won't let other countri share.


·ÕÁ§Ò¹ä·Â¹Í¡¤Í¡(Íè͹ÀÒÉÒ)

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 24 2004, 2:49 AM 

“Just look at the Iraqi, she has one the biggest army in the world, with 8 years of fighting exeperiences in large scale with Iran, and yet unable to last long against the most modern army of the world and one of the most well trained, the US army!!! “

 

+ 10 good years of EMBARGOES, thanks for the invasion of Kuwait


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 24 2004, 7:15 AM 

From Me :
“Just look at the Iraqi, she has one the biggest army in the world, with 8 years of fighting exeperiences in large scale with Iran, and yet unable to last long against the most modern army of the world and one of the most well trained, the US army!!! “

From Lipan:
+ 10 good years of EMBARGOES, thanks for the invasion of Kuwait.


I was talking abt GW1!!!!








    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Apr 24, 2004 8:28 AM


 
 

(Login a1b1ashish)
Satyameva Jayate (India)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 24 2004, 7:47 PM 

I should side with faz ,tvdog on this particular issue for a change .

Giving singapore better grades then others in overall force projection and defending ability.
Lets be clear here its armed forces not land forces. Singapore has one of the strongest and say lethel airforce in the region and todays war is not war of 20th century its a combined war and feeling world over is towards better force sncronization with smaller forces with better equipment and well trained armies with a strong airforces. This is the area where singapore is head and shoulder above everybody here.
One does not go deep inside others teritory to gain advantage but having the command of choking points and complete air dominence with good survelience are key factor to victory. One can make mince meat of a lakh soldiers with only few thousands in defence or attack if the air efforts are well coordinated. Cant say if coordianation is there but they are sure working on it. But then when you have precicion guided bombs you dont need so much of it against any army in SEA region.
Sorties of only hundred frontline fighters for a week will be enough for whole lot of them and singapore has more then that in fact very more than that.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 24 2004, 9:01 PM 

Totally agree with you abt air dominance, with that you could remove the "eyes, the ears and even the brain " of the enemy which was well demontrated in GW1. You could actually bring your enemy to their knees by just having that, but to occupy or invade a piece of land , you still need the army to do that, but it will much easier after all surgical strikes and fighting in both air & land whereas your enemy is only able to do so in one dimension.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 25 2004, 5:06 AM 

>>2. I don't know How many square kms of land government can allocate for the training, but i think
thailand have enough,if we doesn't have enough we won't let other countri share.<<

My point is that although we dun have much natural terrain for our soldiers to train, Singapore's overall training area (local cum overseas) is bigger than the kingdom of Thailand itself.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 
andyddse
(Login andyddse)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 25 2004, 1:56 PM 

Lipan, apa khabar.....? we have a Thai geng now. Welcome..... How's thing?

You all should stop this and come visit Terengganu....... there will be "Pesta Pantai" soon and you can catch fish or sotong (forget what sotong called in english". Nice weather, hot day and night. While in KL is cloudy and raining.

If SG have 350,000 solder I think Vietnam have arround 500k up to 1,000,000 solder in state of ready. They still have to watch out for PRC. Thai have more solder but still having problem internaly and Philipin, well you have more than one enemy. So SG and MY have a batter time and money to spent for it armed force. SG have more and MY have some.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 25, 2004 1:58 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 25 2004, 2:08 PM 

Vietnam has about 500,000 troops. The Thais have about 280,000 troops if Im not wrong. But more than half of Vietnamese troops are para-military militia units as they could not sustain a level of training, sophistication and tech assimilation as compared to far more developed countries. They are effective in thier terrain and country. But what is important is effectiveness. It is pointless having a large army if it fails to perform as per mission requirements/goals to fulfill the over-arching strategic aims. At that level, Singapore is ahead of everybody else in SEA.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Apr 25, 2004 7:16 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login a1b1ashish)
Satyameva Jayate (India)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 25 2004, 7:12 PM 

gary1910 the air power today is so decicive that only one division of well trained and equipped army is enough for a large horde of ancient stuff.
The comparision can be that of an army of few lakhs with swords with few thousand men with guns at a fortified place say in medivial period thats the kind of difference airdominece by morden airforces makes to a battlefield today more than what it was say 20 years.
They can bomb precicely. By reconing only few thousand are enough are enough to hold grould if all your adversary position are taken by planes and no regular formation are left. See in GW-II one division of US army ran practically all of iraq, but in SEA the fight will not be on similar terrian and just few hundred are enough to hold a large area all you need is constant eyes in sky and scare of a plane with precicion guided missiles in the heart of ones adversary.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

April 26 2004, 1:53 AM 

@ gary : LOL he he he

@ andy : no wonder ler....candat sotong skali ke? ..'cuttlefish'

                  nak sket


 
 

(Login badneighbour)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 1:46 AM 

Though I love my Fatherland so must but i'm very objective to compare our strengths to other nation in the area.
This is my LIST : the real capacity to invade and defend

"=" means "as strong as"
1. Thailand = Malaysia
2. Viet Nam(my nation)= Indonesia
3. The Philipines

Singapore is TOO small to do anything "sensible", though its extremely so-called modern warfare in ASIAN.
- useless.

VIETNAMESE NAVY HAS TO BUY MORE SUBMARINES. IT IS STILL NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO ...

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 1:52 AM 

no flame intended... but i think that THAILAND can chow down MALAYSIA anytime they want... they afterall have up to 600 MBT vs malaysia's 27 light tanks (just for comparison).

furthermore.. malaysia MAF is overstretched defending both east and west malaysia.. and the THAI's AF is probably second only to the RSAF...

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 2:29 AM 

The strength of a nation is not measured by size alone... at times.... the pen is mightier then the sword, and a dagger can bring changes when a thoudsand broadsword fails.

for all is fair.. nature has shown that... while the strong rules the world... it is the small that moves the world.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 4:01 AM 

"Faz and Falconone are just stubin Asians like the rest of SEA. I’m sure the Australian defence force gets more respect from china than these people. Well im over it. I know we are better and in till they get some facts to say other wise i'll leave it as that."

Dave,what was that about stupid Asians?These STUPID ASIANS as you so asininely put it(I happen to be Asian)happen to be more intelligent that an ignorant idiot like you!Just because you could not defend your argument,you chose to respond with an immature cursing of an entire group of people inhabiting the Asian continent,where many cultures exist that are far older and have contributed more to history than Australia(this is a fact,e.g. China/India/Arabia).A bad reflection of your upbringing by your parents perhaps?or the culture of your country?i hope not as Australia has many decent people.Your behaviours reflects badly on your country as a whole,as you represent it on these forums,just as falconone,Faz and me represent Singapore,or harimau and icefire for Malaysia,or Lunatic from whichever country he is from,or Ahmed from the UAE.you bring dishonour to your country.

Granted,the ADF consists of professional,highly-trained soldiers which as a force have proven themselves numerous times in history and are more than capable of defending Australia.I will give them credit for that.

However,you are a fool who thinks that by insulting Asians,you can assueage your bruised ego.I have a single phrase for you:"GROW UP!".if you can't respond to an argument like that,either remain quiet or come up with a counter argument.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 11:12 AM 

“…just as falconone,Faz and me represent Singapore,or harimau and icefire for Malaysia,or Lunatic from whichever country he is from,or Ahmed from the UAE.you bring dishonour to your country…”

 

@ Manthor, 

Icefire is not a Malaysian, he’s Singaporean, staying in China.

 

@ Icefire,

correct me if I’m wrong.

 

@ Dave,

Thanks for your courtesy, generalisation and blanket statement.

 


 
 

(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 24 2004, 11:30 AM 

@ Icefire

sorry for mistake.

@ Dave

least you can do is apologise to all the Asians on this forum you insulted.be a gentleman,acknowledge your faults and apologise

@lipanlapan

thanx for pointing out mistake.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 
tvdog
(Login tvdog)

umm...

May 25 2004, 2:19 PM 

... Faz has already responded to Dave:


">>Faz and Falconone are just stubin Asians like the rest of SEA. I’m sure the Australian defence force gets more respect from china than these people. Well im over it. I know we are better and in till they get some facts to say other wise i'll leave it as that.>>

- The facts have been pointed out time and again about the ADF. We are all aware of its capabilities,ORBAT,etc ; just like the rest of SEA.
- Enough of you flamming SEA asians as being stubborn,3rd world ,etc."



I think "stubin" means stubborn, as Faz also suspected. So maybe no need to get so angry. Stubborn-ness is not necessarily a bad trait.

 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 31 2004, 8:13 PM 

When I read what is the Singapore people show theirs big mouthabout theirs army is the best in Asian. I feel this is a joke. Singapore has an army that have a good weapon. Just a good weapon. Do not have more meaning than that.
But theirs army is strongest or not. I'm very doubt on this issue, In my view, I think Vietnam has a strongest and experienced army. (I'm Thai). But If we have a war with Vietnam. We don't think we will lost this war. Good weapon is only one factor when you fight in the real war (not in wargame). I never doubt Singapore wil win in the wargame in computer game, But never the real war. What do you feel when you see your friends death before you eye, many of your friends, Your unit collapse and vapor. Even you have a good weapon, its is not help you in the real war.

If you compare Thai army with Mynmar army. You can see Thai army has good weapon and modern than Mynmar. But If we attack Mynmar. I'm very doubt we can win the war. War has attrition. There have more factors in the real war. Goods weapon is one factor not everything.

I feel this webboard has only big mouth from Singapore and Malaysia. When we read it we feel like to see a rich kid has a quarrel with each others. But the kid is the kid.


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 12:03 AM 

I respect Thailand and the Thai culture.Welcome to the forums.We need a Thai representative here anyway.

Regarding the "big mouth" that we Singaporeans supposedly have,it is true that there are some members of the Singapore online community who are arrogant.

I respect our possbile enemies and your opinion,but Singapore is the strongest militarily in SEA.Regarding how Singaporeans will break and run away,you think that we won't want to get revenge for our fallen comrades,our fallen friends?You think that we Singaporeans as a cowardly lot will turn tail and run?

Hmmmmm.maybe,but I doubt it.Perhaps there are cases of cowardice in the Thai army.We won't know until war,but it happens in any army.

Cases will definitely happen in a war in any army,but on the whole most SAF soldiers will stand their ground and fight.Try not to make a generalisation about a whole community boy.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 1:14 AM 

"Manthor" as I told you. Your country never fight in any war. But most of country in Asian have theirs long history more than 1000 years. They have been won and lose in several war. Singapore never fight in even small scale fighting. Even in police and burglar. As I said you have a good weapon. But American have a good weapon and more powerful army than a new rich child like Singapore. But American lose in Vietnam war and have a big problem in Irag. Weapon is only one factor in war. Total war have many factors. Your resources never fight in pratract war. In prolong war, you will be lost. Even fight with Malaysian in the prolong your country will be lost too . Don't think to make war with any the heavy weight country in Asian like Thailand, Vietnam and Mynmar. May be you can win some battle but not war. War have many battle before it finish. May be in several year. How you can fight in that war.

You have modern fighter in Air Force, But it is not enough for control the Air and bomb the enemy army. US use several hundreds bomber and fighter aircraft to bomb the Iragis army before they attack to that country. But only 50 F-16 and several Attrack Aircraft is not enough to stop the 100,000-500,000 army and another reserve when they realry need any heavy weight country in ASEAN they can conscript more than a million in 3-6 months, Even Malaysian.

Like a Mauy Thai, May be in the first round you can get more score but their 5 rounds in Thai Boxing or 12 rounds in Boxing.

As I said. Singapore has an army with a good weapon. But not strongest in ASEAN country. But the economics in several country Thailand or Vietnam is growth very rapidly. In Thailand last year our GDP was grew more than 7% . We have an ecomomic problems in 1997. But that was only a problem in the past. And Royal Thai Army can start several procurement programme again in the next 5 years. Thailand per capital in come is 7000 US$ per year (PPP rate). When compare with Singapore we less than you about 4 times (Per capita income). But we have 12 times in population when compare with Singapore. And in 10 year, Our per capita income should more than 15,000 US$ a year. 70,000,000x15000= Thailand GDP in next ten years. We spent around 2% in Defense budget.

What do you think you advantage in modern weapon now is still long.
No

Even in Vietnam. The situation is like these. An economics growth is very quickly. And Veitnam has petroleum export country. Her Economic should be biger and biger in the next 10 year. So, we think Singapore is only small Island richer more than us but not in the long run.

In the next 50 year, An ecomomic growth will shift to the northern part of ASEAN country. When we have a road and railway connect with South China and India through Myanmar and from Laos through Vietnam. There is more than 300 millions people in South China. But there have still etnic war in some part of Myanmar (Shan State), but when that problem is solve. The developement will be very quickly.
And Singapore will become a very far and small Island from the mainland in the South.

That is the future that I project.











 
 

(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 5:08 AM 

Perhaps.I will concede that you have several valid points.but do not underestimate Singapore,ever.That is a projected future,but things may happen within the next few decades.events within our lifetimes,that we may not expect.

Singapore may be a 'child' compared to the older countries of ASEAN,but do not underestimate us.We have a proven ability to suprise people.We are not a child any longer,but a counry of nearly 39 years of age.We are undergoing a social and economic evolution,just as it is happening throughout the world.

People didn't expect us to survive after independence.We have done so for nearly 4 decades now.I believe it will survive until my eventual death probably 6 decades from now.and maybe beyond.

city-states have risen and fallen throughout history.I intend to do my utmost that this does not happen to Singapore.Not in my lifetime,and only over my dead body.







    
This message has been edited by Manthor on Jun 1, 2004 5:11 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 5:50 AM 

Dear Monthor,

I understand your feeling of nationalistic on the matter reflected on your country. Topgun1000 have lots of resonable point there. After considering topgun arguement, I am concieve to be belief that Singaporean should not be too proud with the technological advantages over other ASEAN country. The newest story is about the 3g system and how is singapore is gearing up to become the most advance military power in SEA. The story of 350,000 conscript is nothing new as lot of Singaporean are keeping remind us of this number. What they doesn't explain in detail is, out of 350,000 only 1/4 is trainded as field soldier. Other 3/4 is made up for administration, logistic, engineering and other supportive team. With all of reserve is mostly ultilised, how much more could singapore afford to consript? another 500,000? Malaysia have at least 24 million population could easily raise up 300-400 conscript in time of war or maybe more. Thailand in other hand could at least consript 1-2 million of conscript in time of war. One important point that Singaporean alway have they doctorine is first attack as they know without it, they will loose the war. What if the first attack or wave could not wipe out 1/2 of the strength of opoonent? In a prolong war, Singapore have no change of facing the big player without outsider support. The main problem with singapore is population and limited area. The consript are made of reservist that is vital for economic engine for Singapore and with ulitilisation for these precious man power, the economic will be in stand still. The economy will be ruined internally. There is point that Singapore have reserve up to 100 billion USD, but how hong the reserve could stand to finance war and finance economic growth. Lack of land mass also is main disadvantages of singapore where ordinary artilary could act as strategic weapon as the concentartion of population is high. If one could manage to lauch artilary attack on the petroleum refinary and reserve alone, the effect of the attack is unimaginarable.
My comment is quite long already and i would like to apologized on any point that is not relevant or incorrect. Feel free to comment.


    
This message has been edited by harimau2000 on Jun 1, 2004 7:23 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 11:21 AM 

The story of 350,000 conscript is nothing new as lot of Singaporean are keeping remind us of this number. What they doesn't explain in detail is, out of 350,000 only 1/4 is trainded as field soldier. Other 3/4 is made up for administration, logistic, engineering and other supportive team.

LOL!
Where did you get the data abt 3/4 of 350K is for logistic support?

Do you noe that due to lower birth rate and the expandibg orbat of SAF that we have actually privatised most of our logistical support to the our own military industries, they have taken over base level maintenace for most equipment, spares storage and food supplies thus free up more conscripts to be in combat roles.

I dun think any armies in SEA has this level of privatistaion thus higher ratio of combat soldiers vs logistics support soldiers than any armies in SEA.

Now SAF has 3 Combined Arms Div(CAD), 1 Rapid Deployemt Div, 1 Armoured Bde/Div, 2 PDF formation which will yield another 2-3 light infantry Div.

With abt 7 Div in SAF , does SAF have the equipment for all these 7 Div?
Yes, they have. ( Check SAF's Orbat for confirmation)

Now , does SAF has enought combat soldiers for all these Div?

Now instead answering your question , I will ask you a question. Why the hell SAF bought so many equipment if they do not have sufficient manpower to use them?!?

It will be fxxking waste of money!!! That is why I said you do not know much abt SAF to make such a statement.

In a prolong war, Singapore have no change of facing the big player without outsider support. The main problem with singapore is population and limited area. The consript are made of reservist that is vital for economic engine for Singapore and with ulitilisation for these precious man power, the economic will be in stand still. The economy will be ruined internally. There is point that Singapore have reserve up to 100 billion USD, but how hong the reserve could stand to finance war and finance economic growth. Lack of land mass also is main disadvantages of singapore where ordinary artilary could act as strategic weapon as the concentartion of population is high. If one could manage to lauch artilary attack on the petroleum refinary and reserve alone, the effect of the attack is unimaginarable.

Regardless whether you are small or big, when a war comes to your doorstep, any nations involve will suffer economically.

There will no more investment local or foreign, no more tourists, lack of raw mat'l as all land /sea/air routes wil be compromise during a war.

But having a 100 billion USD in reserve will be useful for rebuilding after the war than those who have little or no reserve at all! LOL

SAF is a deterrent force with 60+ F-16C/Ds, 40+ upgraded F-5S, 40-80 A-4SUs, 20 Apaches, 100+ MBTs, 372 light tanks, 1700+ APC/IFVs, 200+ Arty pieces etc

That is something for a nation any in SEA to think abt before lobbing a few arty onto SG's soil, becos with today precison standoff weapons and with more than 150-200 fighters which is larger than any airforces in SEA maybe except Thailand(but the Thai has less capable a/cs compare to RSAF), SAF will inflict a much higher damage than the enemy could inflict on us.

Is it possible???

Just look at what US/UK a/cs did to Iraq in Desert Shield.(air war or rather free for all bombing)

Someone question whether RSAF could achieve air dominance with 150+ a/cs.
Well , lets see no nation in SEA has the same quantity and quality as RSAF.

War is battle of attrition, RMAF's 30-40 a/c even able to 1:1 success rate mean it will face another 100 a/cs after the air war!!!

The Thai has large qty of a/c but they all at least one generation behind RSAF,
30+ F-16 A/Bs and 12 Harriers against 60+ RSAF's F-16C/Ds,50 F-5E against RSAF's 45 F-5S(upgraded recently with the latest avionics), small qty of Alpha/A-7 a.c for CAS against at least 40 RSAF's A-4SU( the rest is been mothballed but when war come it may increase to another 40 at least).

In term of qty of RTAF still lose out to RSAF but only slightly, but quality wise , they lose out quite a lot.
It will be hard fight , but RSAF pilots are as well trained as the USAF's pilots since they are trained there.

So for air dominance, all nation in SEA will not be a problem except maybe the RTAF.




    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 1, 2004 11:30 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 12:33 PM 

No one can fight with Singapore big mouth. But no country in ASEAN afraid of Singapore or accept theirs claim.

"Gary1910" that is your reason. But you don't make any nation respect on you by talk and show-off. What you said is just a joke in ASEAN people when we talk about you. When a time of war where you get food. You can not produce by yourself, whare you get water.

Just compare with Air Force with Thai Airforce. 52 f-16 with Amram can newtral your modern F-16. You can win if you have more 3-4 times of fighter. But not only in the same number. (But I can fight with your big mouth).

500 tank and 300 artillery can destroy your 50,000 active army. I don't count you reserve because we have more resever too.

If you need ranking from outside Singapore country we give you in the same rank of Malaysia (I think below Malaysia In the total power of nation)

But big mouth, You are the first in the world and win even USA + Russia+China.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 1:07 PM 

No one can fight with Singapore big mouth. But no country in ASEAN afraid of Singapore or accept theirs claim.

"Gary1910" that is your reason. But you don't make any nation respect on you by talk and show-off. What you said is just a joke in ASEAN people when we talk about you. When a time of war where you get food. You can not produce by yourself, whare you get water.

Just compare with Air Force with Thai Airforce. 52 f-16 with Amram can newtral your modern F-16. You can win if you have more 3-4 times of fighter. But not only in the same number. (But I can fight with your big mouth).

500 tank and 300 artillery can destroy your 50,000 active army. I don't count you reserve because we have more resever too.

If you need ranking from outside Singapore country we give you in the same rank of Malaysia (I think below Malaysia In the total power of nation)

But big mouth, You are the first in the world and win even USA + Russia+China.


LOL, Big mouth!!! LOL

The thing I have stated is the facts which anyone could verified if they search for it.

Air war success with superior technology in GW1 is also a fact!!!

Your 52 2nd hand F-16A/B from US to nuetralise 62 brand new F-16 Blk 52 and 52+ .LOL

Amraam AIM-120C2 missiles , I believe I read it somewhere RTAF only have 24 of them I think, do you know how many RSAF have,100 AIM-120C2 and recently got another 50 AIM-120C5 misslies!!!

You have Python 3, do you know that RSAF F-16s and F-5S are all armed & able to fire Python 4!!!

I have stated earliar in my previous post that the Vietnam and Thai has largest orbat for the army in SEA and I am not denying that,but we do have the most advance and largest airforce in SEA which no one could deny!!!

The facts speak for themselves, I am just stating them, if you can't take it becos of jealousy or whatever , that is not my problem!!!LOL


 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 1:22 PM 

Even in SEAGAME, Singapore naver win most of Golden madal in that fare game in our ASEAN country. Why do you claim you can overun another nation in ASEAN. You have more money, You should invest more in Sport. But why do you never get most of Golden Madal in SEAGAME. The sport show the power of the nation. In Football , Thailand is the King of the match, But we can see the threat from Vietnam in the next round. But we never thing Singapore is our threat.

So you should evaluate your nation from "What is to be? rather than "What should to be?
Your nation is rich but not strongest and have more weak point.
Do you know in the real war, money is nothing. You must have the real goods not your reserve in foreign Bank. Because you could not eat money.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 1:44 PM 

My mistake, RTAF I dun think they have only 24 Amraams but actually ordered only 8 of them . Check the link below:

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031104-110816-8044r.htm

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/EK06Ae02.html

They may have ordered more but it was not reported.

 
 
a young vietnamse man
(Login badneighbour)

In this case, I quite agree with topgun...!

June 1 2004, 1:52 PM 

I don't know why someone still believes that Singapore is the strongest...

I think we just need mention Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Myanmar and The Phillipines.




 
 

(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 2:09 PM 

Even in SEAGAME, Singapore naver win most of Golden madal in that fare game in our ASEAN country. Why do you claim you can overun another nation in ASEAN. You have more money, You should invest more in Sport. But why do you never get most of Golden Madal in SEAGAME. The sport show the power of the nation. In Football , Thailand is the King of the match, But we can see the threat from Vietnam in the next round. But we never thing Singapore is our threat.

So you should evaluate your nation from "What is to be? rather than "What should to be?
Your nation is rich but not strongest and have more weak point.
Do you know in the real war, money is nothing. You must have the real goods not your reserve in foreign Bank. Because you could not eat money.


SG never won a gold medal in SEA?!?LOL

Do you know that the water polo event was won by SG every time since the start of SEA games!!! LOL

I will not say SG is the power house in sport in SEA but we won enough gold medals every SEA games to be in the middle table, especially most countries in SEA has 10 times and even 100 times more population as compare to SG!!!

I think in terms ratio of gold medals vs total population , I think SG is highest in SEA!!!!

Well , this is a military forum not sports.

Of course, Sg has weak point, we do not have strategic depth , which mean we have nowhere to retreat when attack, therefore if we are being attacked, we will bring the fight to the enemy by counter attack.

SAF is also a concripts army just like Thailand, but will leverage it by having better weapons system as well as number.That is our strategy.

SG and Thailand are both close friend of US and to eachother , SAF have always trained with Thai army and also SAF has one army training camp in Thailand where our visting troops will train together with Thai army frequently, SAF also send troops to Cobra Gold exe for every exe ever since we are invited.

Another thing to add, in the 80s after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia, SAF has send many small group of soldiers to "train" in northern Thailand.

Training is one thing, more importantly to be familiar with the terrain in Northern Thailand so if Vietnam was to send their troops southward, SAF would have then.......

Well, you fill in the blank yourself.




    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 1, 2004 2:53 PM
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 1, 2004 2:50 PM


 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 3:14 PM 

"gary1910 " You should know that USA raise us as Non-NATO alliace. We don't need it. But Americam think we are his best friend. we have a relationship with USA more than 160 year before begin of Singapore city-state. Therefor, Bush annouce that Thailand is his Major Non-NATO allice. So we can afford many of theirs modern weapon. But Thailand is a peacful nation. We need to live with our ASEAN frien with peace. But we are not underestimate some ambitious of any nation. We have to rely on defence policy not aggressive.

As I told you, We spent a budget on defense only 1.5-2.0 % of GDP. But Singapore spent more than 5-7% of GDP. What's happen if we spent as the same your propotion. Our defense budget shold be overwhelm Singapore in the next 10 years.

The 2-3 Submarine are on very near Royal Thai Navy plan. The Next 1-2 fighter squadron are the same.
The priminister Dr. Thaksin said it should be on his next term. Because in this term he need more invest for the poor people.


 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 3:29 PM 

""Training is one thing, more importantly to be familiar with the terrain in Northern Thailand so if Vietnam was to send their troops southward, SAF would have then.......""

WGary1910" As you metion above. Now you can understand why china attack vietnam in 1979. The secret reason is on you mention above.



 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 3:40 PM 

As I told you, We spent a budget on defense only 1.5-2.0 % of GDP. But Singapore spent more than 5-7% of GDP. What's happen if we spent as the same your propotion. Our defense budget shold be overwhelm Singapore in the next 10 years.

>>> sure... i believe many countries (including singapore) would love to spend more on everything from defence to education to social welfare to health care...

>>> BUT its always a case of MONEY NOT ENOUGH, so its not whether IF thailand want to spend more on defence... its more of whether thailand CAN spend more on defence in the face of competing demands from other govt sectors.

>>> given a choice... why eat cheap hamburger if you can afford kobe beef?

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 3:54 PM 

I don't know why someone still believes that Singapore is the strongest...

I think we just need mention Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Myanmar and The Phillipines.

-------------------------------------

its because... everyone wants to measure themselves against someone that they feel is better then them... yet at them same time close enough to offer them the possibility of overtaking it.

nobody would compare themselves against brunei... since that would be silly..

and nobody would wanna compare themselves against USA or PRC or INDIA.. cos that would be overestimating their potential.

in the end... singapore became the favourite choice.. as it was recoginized by the region as well as globally to be the most technologically advanced nation in SEA.

singapore may be small... but everyone in the region knows... if you cant even match singapore in defence technology, economic developement and organization... you wont even stand a chance against the bigger powers in similar areas.

take the asian financial crisis for example... singapore's stability, resilience and effortless ease in dealing with it when many far larger regional nations have been humbled and mauled, proved that though small it may be... its strength is far from small.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 4:21 PM 

It is no use trying to enlighten some people who have their mentality that big is good and small is boo. Some people just like to counter watever facts with '' oh yeah, what if our expenditure is the same as yours, what if we achieve the same level of developement..'', unfortunately for the past 4 decades, their country had failed to suppass Singapore and their ''what if'' hypotises just bear no weight.

By many anaylst, Singapore have the best armed force in the region. Try to quote any statement that Malaysia/ Thailand/ Vietnam have the best armed force in our region of our time, u will not find any. Statements such as ''oh Singapore cant even win a gold medal in SEA'' clearly explains their lack of knowledge which result to toploftican because of nationalism.

Why Singapore have the best armed force in our region? Thats simply. Ask yourself a few questions.

1)Is there any other nation in SEA except for Singapore which possess a military industry ranking top 100 in the world.

2)Is there any other nation in SEA which have a USD 4++ Billion defense expenditure.

3)Is there any other armed force in SEA which have a higher operational rate than the SAF?

4)Is there any other nation in SEA which possess any level of NCW capability (perhaps some soldiers in Vietnam/Thailand or Malaysia dun even know what is NCW).

5)Is there any other nation in SEA that can match Singapore in ELINT, SIGINT and SAT-imagery capability?

6)Is there any other nation which have a larger and more wholesome rapid deployment force than what the SAF is currently having?

7)Is there any other nation in SEA which have a longer precision strike capability than the SAF?

Answer all these question truthfully and u will know the truth.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 4:42 PM 

Just compare with Air Force with Thai Airforce. 52 f-16 with Amram can newtral your modern F-16. You can win if you have more 3-4 times of fighter. But not only in the same number. (But I can fight with your big mouth).

--------------------------------------------------

i got some nice articles if you like on RTAF F-16 and RSAF F-16.

for RTAF F-16..

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?bg=61&id=8

for RSAF F-16...

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?bg=58&id=8

its worthy of note that the RTAF F-16 carries the APG-66 radar with a air and ground search range of 148km...

the RMAF MIG-29 zhuk M radar on the other hand has a air search range of approx. 139km.... but in ground search.. the RMAF MIG-29 is about 250km far exceeding the RTAF F-16.

the upcoming SU-30MKM radar would have a range about 250km for both air and ground search.

i think once the RMAF starts to recieved their SU-30... we will have to rate RTAF below the RMAF.

the RSAF current F-16CJ block 52+ carries the APG-68(V) radar... with an air and ground search range of nearly 300km!

the RSAF current E-2C APS-138 has radar air search range of 460km!! (drop jaw!)

the RSAF future fighter (assuming its the rafale RBE2) would have a radar search range of 325km for both air and ground search.

the RSAF future AWAC (also known as the LALEE) would have a search range far bigger then the E-2C APS-138... maybe with a range equal to the USA APS-145's 650km!!

now do you understand... why everyone wants to be better then singapore?

take the RMAF purchase of the SU-30MKM as an example... even their highly anticipated radar could not even match the radar that is currently in used by nearly 6 dozens of RSAF F-16s. (they are only buying 18 MKMs)

and while RMAF still waits to lay their hands on their MKM ... the RSAF F-16CJ/DJs block 52+ has been around for so long, that we have already begun to plan for its retirement!! hahahahaaaa........

how about this... since thailand has been a great friend of singapore... once we got our new replacement planes for the falcons... we might just give it to RTAF for free!


    
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Jun 1, 2004 4:53 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 7:27 PM 

Singapore is great. But that is only Singapore people believe it. No nations in ASEAN beleive that. We think that is a joke.

That is my views and anothers ASEAN people views.

If you want to know what the people outside Singapore see what you are.

That is our view.

You can say anything what you want but no one believe that. Except some Singapore guys. Your are very proud in your country like the NAZY feel in the Hitler regime

Singapore ary is srongest. Thay is only joke in the ASEAN.

But there have some Singaporian believe in that Joke.

What a pity?





 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 1 2004, 10:06 PM 

Singapore is great. But that is only Singapore people believe it. No nations in ASEAN beleive that. We think that is a joke.

That is my views and anothers ASEAN people views.

If you want to know what the people outside Singapore see what you are.

That is our view.

You can say anything what you want but no one believe that. Except some Singapore guys. Your are very proud in your country like the NAZY feel in the Hitler regime

Singapore ary is srongest. Thay is only joke in the ASEAN.

But there have some Singaporian believe in that Joke.

What a pity?


You are really pathetic, look at your all postings, nothing valid or any data from you, just a lot blabbering abt Singaporeans.

Just from this thread alone , many other nationalities not Singaporean(Icefire, Military Expert,Williz,a1b1hish) have stated that SAF is the most advance and most modern armed forces in SEA. Dun believe me , then read thru the whole thread , the proof are all there!!!! LOL

Your first statement that no one will believe other than Singaporean is already shot down like flies just from this thread alone!!!!LOL

As for what we stated so far, RSAF is the best in SEA which I and many here have already given the orbat for all to see, that itself no one could dispute in term of quality as well as quantity!!!!

Do you have data to dispute that??? Otherwise you are just full of nationalistic hot airs!!!! LOL

RSAF it also the progess in selecting the Next Generation Fighter, the contender will be the Rafales, F-15K and lastly the Eurofighter Typhoon for the A-4 replacement.
We are also participate in F-35 projects which will eventually take over F-5.
And also the future unmanned AEW Lalee.

Now lets talk how modern SAF is , just read thru the thread below :

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=242808&messageid=1086036781&lp=1086087853

If you read thru the forum abt Singapore R&D projects for this year alone, you will find projects like UCAV, UGV, Unmanned patrol craft,UAV, AEW ,NCW , simulators etc from Singapore.

Here the links for some of the developing projects:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,253876,00.html

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/media/image/launched/2004-03-07/arm.PDF

Here the link to all developed projects that are advertised by ST engg, check out the Land and Marine system,

http://www.stengg.com/home/

As I stated before the SAF's army might not have the largest orbat is SEA but they are supported by some high tech system where most armies in SEA dun even have any, for example UAV, C4ISR, Apaches Attack helos, Satelites imagery capability, and the near future UGV and fully NCW armed forces!!!

For the navy, with 6 stealth firgates which will be the most advance in SEA.
And future projects like new stealth patrol crafts, navalised UAV, unmanned patrol crafts even unmanned submarine craft Sea-i.

All the above are from articles and announcement from ST Engg, DSTG or SAF and not from some hot air nationalistic loser that we see here. LOL





 
 

(Login topgun1000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 12:02 AM 

Gary1910, Everything for you believe is Weapon and Technology.

But with the most advanced weapon, American lose his war in Vietnam.
With very dengerouse weapon, Soviet lose his war in Afganistan.
And, Again American nearly lose his war in Irag.

I belive that you never read " Tsuzu, The art of war" or On war or any strategic book. (I read that two of its). You just read Miliitary Technology Magazine and fascinating what advanced of the new weapon.

But the 2 Superpower of the world (USA and Soviet) lose theirs war to very poor country with poor weapon.

So I told you weapon is only one factor in the war. There is another factors.

The power of certain nation not rely on only modern weapon. They must have another factors.

I don't doubt that your country has an army with a good weapon. But weapon is only one factor.

But argue with you is very boring. You just believe, believe and believe.
There is only one thing that Singapore have advantage than another country.
Modern Weapon. But she does not have more enoug of that weapon, Just later version of weapon.

But another factors in the war. Singapore has more disadvantage.
- Population
- Terrain
- Room for manuvre
-
-
If you have 250-300 of F-16s. I will belive that you Air force is strongest.
But you have more than Thai Air Force only 10-20. That is you call you are the Strongest. What a pity.?

In the time of war. At the sword point. You don't have every F-16 in the Air battle point. And maintenance reason or many reason, Some fighter can not landing for figh.
Therefor 50 F-16 or 70 F-16 is the same. May be they can use only 10-20 at that time.

When compare with Vietnam, She has 120 Mig-21, 60 Mig-23.
and the newest model. 12 Su-27 Flanker.

That is you call Singapore has the strongest army in the ASEAN.

Your army has only a little bit of the new model of some weapon.










 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 12:25 AM 

Singapore is great. But that is only Singapore people believe it. No nations in ASEAN beleive that. We think that is a joke.

That is my views and anothers ASEAN people views.

If you want to know what the people outside Singapore see what you are.

That is our view.

You can say anything what you want but no one believe that. Except some Singapore guys. Your are very proud in your country like the NAZY feel in the Hitler regime

Singapore ary is srongest. Thay is only joke in the ASEAN.

But there have some Singaporian believe in that Joke.

What a pity?

--------------------------------

nah.... you are the one who is full of hot air... you are just one person, there is no way in hell you could be representing the combine COHERENT (that's impossible!) views of 350 million people in SEA.

i can easily turn around and say the same opposite and claim to speak for what the 350 million asean people "THINKS".. hahahhaahaha... but i will not be as naive as you.


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 12:27 AM 

>>Therefor 50 F-16 or 70 F-16 is the same. May be they can use only 10-20 at that time.<<

10-20? LOL, Singapore have the highest operational standard in SEA, if out of 70 F-16s onli 10-20 is operational? Then out of vietname 120 MiG-21, only 1 is operation then. LOLX.

U must be a joke man. LOL, go to the World Armed Force Forum and put then Vietname have a better airforce then Singapore, u will be the joke of the month, baby.


>>When compare with Vietnam, She has 120 Mig-21, 60 Mig-23.
and the newest model. 12 Su-27 Flanker.<<

I dun give a **** if u have 200 MiG-21 and MiG-23, unless they are armed with BARS radar, they will get shot down like how the US trash Libryans' flying tin can.

Im more interested with the 12 Su-27, but too bad, it have no fight with the RSAF's F-16 considering our weapon and our training standards. LOL. I dun even give a **** abt RMAF's 18 SU-30, u think your 12 SU-27 will shake mi?

If u wanna compare....can.

Singapore 40+ F-5S vs Vietnam 60 MiG-23 F-5S armed with Python5 and Amraams)

Singapore 50+ A-4SU + 50 F-16C/D vs Vietnam 120 Tincan. (F-16 armed with python5 and Amraams, A-4SU armed with AIM-9.)

Singapore's 20 F-16C vs 12 Su-27. (F-16 armed with python5 and Amraams.)

In the end, RSAF still have the upper edge because we outnumber u in SU-27 and nearly match u with the rest of ur tin cans, however we have the upper edge due to better training and newer equipments.

Vietnam must be crazy if she want to fight with Singapore. And do u want us to sent our MAV-1 stealth bomber to trash Hanoi???




-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 12:28 AM 

You are fighting against the tide of opinion my Thai friend.

The SAF has been acknowledged as the best there is in SEA as of this time.In the future,who knows,but for at least the next decade we will be the dominant military power.

I will acknowledge that the Thais have a conscript army that far outnumbers ours,the 2nd best air force in SEA and a relatively capable navy.

However,we are technically and numerically superior in the aerial and naval arena,where no other country in SEA can currently match us.

RSN-a squadron of Delta-class stealth frigates along with many undergoing projects.We will also possess moderate force-projection capabilities as our navy becomes a green-to-blue water navy,with possession of LPD's and our frigates.

RSAF-largest and most capable air force within SEA with 70+ F-16's ,70+ F-5S's,40+ A4-SU Super Skyhawks and the coming acquisition of the Rafale from France.

Army-highest operational rating among SEA armies,use of sophisticated tech,healthy reservit numbers.

While we definitely have deficiencies in the sports arena,we are more than capable of making ourselves count where it matters.

While we may not have the adversity quotient of some of our neighbours soldiers,we have proven ourselves capable of standing our ground and rising to the occasion.You may hear Singaporeans complain a lot about this and that,but at the core we are a survivalist nation like the Israeli's and will do whatever it takes to survive,to preserve ourselves in the most trying circumstances.you push us into a corner,and we will not hold back.

Our training allows us to operate as a strike force ruthlessly and if we have to,I bet we would well use terror tactics like depopulation and culling of civilians to ensure the national survival of Singapore.It is definitely within human nature to do that for the sake of survival.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 1:05 AM 

Gary1910, Everything for you believe is Weapon and Technology.

>>> even the superpowers believe in weapon and technology... would you mind tell me a superpower that does not have nukes and have soldiers running around carrying spears and bows?

But with the most advanced weapon, American lose his war in Vietnam.
With very dengerouse weapon, Soviet lose his war in Afganistan.
And, Again American nearly lose his war in Irag.

>>> nah... your sentence above shows you knew close to nothing about vietnam war or the soviet war in afganistan.... you should read up more...

>>> things are not always as simple as it seems....

I belive that you never read " Tsuzu, The art of war" or On war or any strategic book. (I read that two of its). You just read Miliitary Technology Magazine and fascinating what advanced of the new weapon.

>>> nah.... you may have read the art of war... but YOU DONT understand the art of war.

But the 2 Superpower of the world (USA and Soviet) lose theirs war to very poor country with poor weapon.

>>> nah.... you are showing your ignorance again.. try to read up more on the 2 wars... please dont make a fool of yourself.

>>> in fact.. i think that your examples consistantly points out that smaller nation(with backers) can beat their bigger foes.... which is what we in singapore believe... but we also believe that having technological edge would help us win more swiftly and with less casualty on our side....especially against a larger enemy with inferior weapons.

So I told you weapon is only one factor in the war. There is another factors.

>>> there are many factors in war... and loosing even one factor (technology or otherwise) could have severe consequences (check with saddam if you dont believe me).... its foolhardly to think otherwise.

The power of certain nation not rely on only modern weapon. They must have another factors.

>>> no... they have many other factors.... in this world.. all players are dealt a fair hand of cards.. the strength of the nation be it small or big or giants are determined by how they play their cards...

I don't doubt that your country has an army with a good weapon. But weapon is only one factor.

>>> lets just say that weapon is a crucial factor... the purchase of these weapons shows the will, determination, support and foresight of singaporeans and their leaders... (the other half of the factors that you are harping about) to defend our country.

But argue with you is very boring. You just believe, believe and believe.
There is only one thing that Singapore have advantage than another country.
Modern Weapon. But she does not have more enoug of that weapon, Just later version of weapon.

>>> our believe shows our faith and confidence.... something i think you would consider crucial(in sun tzu art of war) other then modern tech and weapon.

>>> and we do have lots of the latest weapons... its just that upgrading takes time... you cant change every weapon in your arsenal with a wave of a magic wand. but comparatively... if we dont have enough such modern weapons in our armed forces... our neighbours have either NON or FAR LESS then us.

But another factors in the war. Singapore has more disadvantage.
- Population

>>> we make up in lack of quantity with quality...though human resource development. we make up for the lack in numbers with NS.

- Terrain

>>> we train our forces in AUSTRALIA, ROC, THAILAND, BRUNEI, PHILLIPINE, USA, FRANCE, SOUTH AFRICA, INDIA, BANGLADESH, INDONESIA, BURMA, NEW ZEALAND, ISREAL, UK and many other nations... spread over 5 continents!


- Room for manuvre

>>> in terms of lack of strategic depth... we depends on preemptive strike, advance intel and turn our island into a concrete fortress of BUA... we are no sitting duck.

If you have 250-300 of F-16s. I will belive that you Air force is strongest.
But you have more than Thai Air Force only 10-20. That is you call you are the Strongest. What a pity.?

>>> you failed to appreciate the difference in technology... ours is a block 52, yours a block 15... it like comparing a katana blade against a penknife!

In the time of war. At the sword point. You don't have every F-16 in the Air battle point. And maintenance reason or many reason, Some fighter can not landing for figh.
Therefor 50 F-16 or 70 F-16 is the same. May be they can use only 10-20 at that time.

>>> if so... how many planes do you think RTAF can use since they have even lower number of falcons then us, plus plagued with funds shortage? how about malaysia with only 18 MKM? single MKM availability?

When compare with Vietnam, She has 120 Mig-21, 60 Mig-23.
and the newest model. 12 Su-27 Flanker.

>>> so??? does vietnam still have the financial power to go to war? war is expensive... in the past they got big backers that gave them weapons for free... now... they wont be so lucky.

That is you call Singapore has the strongest army in the ASEAN.

Your army has only a little bit of the new model of some weapon.

>>> your naivety exceeds us all... enough said.

 
 
a young vietnamese man
(Login badneighbour)

to Singaporeans

June 2 2004, 1:21 AM 

This is what I know about your country :

The cleanest nation

Chinese-Singaporeans are excellent at business - having a stable and strong economy

The first choice of many tourists

Frequently upgrading and adding new ones to your arsenal(I guess you are afraid of being attacked by neighbours- such as MA******, In*******, right?)

That's why >>> Getting closer and closer in the relations with "powerful nations"

I'm not mad when I say that it's only worth discussing when we compare Vietnam with Thailand or Malaysia or Indonesia, because these nations are quite strong enough to defence any invasions even from the most powerful in the world and they can, if it's necessary, even invade and conquer some of their enemy. whereas Singapore is just strong enough to defence itself. Objectively, I never think Singapore will dare to to attack Laos or Cambodia...so I don't want to compare Vietnam with Singapore, it's so inappropriate.

"small" moves the world?

...on the condition that it's as small as Japan, for example. Singapore is much much smaller than Japan, it's extremely tiny...FRANKLY





    
This message has been edited by badneighbour on Jun 2, 2004 2:29 AM


 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 1:32 AM 

Frequently upgrading and adding new ones to your arsenal(I guess you are afraid of being attacked by neighbours- such as MA******, In*******, right?)

>>> its malaysia and indonesia.. at least spell their names clearly... its not a secret to begin with.

That's why >>> Getting closer and closer in the relations with "powerful nations"

>>> well... even vietnam is moving to enhance their relationship with USA and PRC... isnt that so?

I'm not mad when I say that it's only worth discussing when we compare Vietnam with Thailand or Malaysia or Indonesia, because these nations are quite strong enough to defence any invasions even from the most powerful in the world and they can, if it's necessary, even invade and conquer some of their enemy. whereas Singapore is just strong enough to defence itself. Objectively, I never think Singapore will dare to to attack Laos or Cambodia...so I don't want to compare Vietnam with Singapore, it's so inappropriate.

>>> and what do you think is the possibility of malaysia or indonesia attacking loas or cambodia?

"small" moves the world?

...on the condition that it's as small as Japan, for example. Singapore is much much smaller than Japan, it's extremely tiny...FRANKLY

>>> nah.. you dont have to be the size of japan to move the world.... what you need is brain.

>>> take the FTAs that singapore has been pushing for years ago... many regional nations are dead set against it... but now.. they too are rushing to make up for lost time and jump onto the FTA bandwagons.

 
 
Manthor
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 7:00 AM 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=211833&messageid=1086132721&lp=1086140210

Is the Vietnam Air Force better than the Singapore Air Force?

This is to answer the question of those who said that the Vietnamese air force was stronger.Feel free to pose your questions to the moderators.

Sincerely,while we lack the ability to occupy and conquer Cambodia or Vietnam(the SAF isn't meant for tht;deterrence,defensive actions and preemptive actions within a certain area only,not so large that we stretch supply lines),we do have the ability like Israel to take punitive actions like naval blockades and other naval actions and air strikes as well as covert operations to punish these nations if necessary,though they are our friends and neighbours.We just have the capability to do so if neceesary.

We are good friends of Thailand and would be more than willing to defend them and aid them should they ever ask,not that they need to as they have proved,though we are prepared for the eventuality.

We are official allies of Malaysia under the FPDA,and our cultures are so closely tied man(hey,my dad is Malaysian mah!i am singaporean,but got to respect the fatherland).Singapore and Malaysia are interdependent.All the Malaysia vs Singapura threads are just hot air meant for people's egos.

Its just that the government is paranoid,and its character is to overreact to situations;hence the pioneering concept of 'beyond overkill'(look at the amount of firepowr we invest in!)Its character is also to prepare for contingencies hence the immense firepower and cruise missiles.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 8:02 AM 

Manthor, that's a good link with comments from an American as well a Russian on the capability of Singpaore RSAF and not from a Singaporean.

Brokenhalo67 who is an American has give quite a detail summary of RSAF.

For any doubters, read it. Don't say only Singaporean believe, even people far away from SEA believe that RSAF is most potent airforce in SEA.

Why is it so?

Becos they bother to search and find out the truth!!!
Not like someone here only hot air and no valid data to backup their hot air!!!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=211833&messageid=1086132721&lp=1086140210


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 2, 2004 8:14 AM


 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 8:32 AM 

i think given the poor state of RTAF and its lack of funding coupled with RMAF's rapid growth... it shouldnt be long before we have to class RMAF above RTAF to be the 2nd best air force after RSAF.

even now... there is nothing in RTAF that could stand up against RMAF F-18C/D hornet with APG-73 radar.

the only saving grace for RTAF was the fact that RMAF only have 8 hornets... had they bought more or exchange their hornets for the super hornets in the future, coupled with the delivery of SU-30MKM... i dare say RMAF would supercede RTAF by a huge margin...

add to the rising power of RMAF and RMN, coupled with its recent ATGW purchase, ASTROS2, possible armed helo and MBTs.. it shouldnt be long before MAF would be able to match the thai armed forces within another 10 years.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 8:51 AM 

i think given the poor state of RTAF and its lack of funding coupled with RMAF's rapid growth... it shouldnt be long before we have to class RMAF above RTAF to be the 2nd best air force after RSAF.

even now... there is nothing in RTAF that could stand up against RMAF F-18C/D hornet with APG-73 radar.

the only saving grace for RTAF was the fact that RMAF only have 8 hornets... had they bought more or exchange their hornets for the super hornets in the future, coupled with the delivery of SU-30MKM... i dare say RMAF would supercede RTAF by a huge margin...

add to the rising power of RMAF and RMN, coupled with its recent ATGW purchase, ASTROS2, possible armed helo and MBTs.. it shouldnt be long before MAF would be able to match the thai armed forces within another 10 years.


That's maybe true but there is advantage the Thai have, that is getting more US surplus equipment from the US practically free. For example their M60 MBT,latest batch F-16A/B.

So in a way , Thai might have not the money to buy the latest weapons but they could get their hand on lot of 2nd hand US surplus equipment which might still give them a numerical advantage over MY. Losing out in quality but certainly win in quantity.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login puml)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 9:52 AM 



Aaaa, What a sight !!! This is how neighbour should behave.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login noname25)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 10:21 AM 

And then Thailand accuses Malaysia of sheltering terrorists.

 
 

BIG_BANANA
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 10:29 AM 

Aaaa, What a sight !!! This is how neighbour should behave.

-------------------------------------------

by passing a cigarette to your neighbour and cause him to die of lung cancer? wow.....

 
 

BIG_BANANA
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 10:37 AM 

That's maybe true but there is advantage the Thai have, that is getting more US surplus equipment from the US practically free. For example their M60 MBT,latest batch F-16A/B.

>>> that was during the vietnam threat, when the americans are worried over the domino theory... NOW... its probably gonna be difficult to ask america to give them weapons for free...

>>> even during the recent asian financial crisis... the americans didnt came to help the baht.. which i am sure they could if they want to... a warning from greenspan would have those speculators run for cover!

>>> and when the thais couldnt afford to pay for the rest of the hornets... the americans didnt gave them the hornets for free or cheap either... even though the cost is miniscule to the USA.

So in a way , Thai might have not the money to buy the latest weapons but they could get their hand on lot of 2nd hand US surplus equipment which might still give them a numerical advantage over MY. Losing out in quality but certainly win in quantity.


>>> the question is for how long would the thais continue to enjoy cheap weapons from the USA... in time most of the equipment would become useless due to lack of money for maintainance and spare parts.

>>> maintaining 500 MBT aint cheap... its gonna take a miracle to maintain those MBTs in operational condition considering the amount they spend on defence... even their pride carrier is now rusting in the docks!

>>> it shouldnt be long... before military experts starts to question the operational readiness of the RTAF, RTA and RTN unless they jack up their defence expenditure.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 10:49 AM 

They are close indeed, one of the alleged leader of the insurgent is a lecturer in MY!!!

And recently one group MAF soldiers wearing civilian clothing went "sightseeing" in Thai territory w/o passport!!!!

PAS party of MY voice "admiration" of Thai govt handling of the insurgency!!!

They will be much closer when insurgency increase in tempo!

 
 
Anonymous
(Login noname25)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 11:47 AM 

Eh guys, I think we should stop bothering to explain to topgun and young vietnamese man, their english is obviously not good enough to understand what we are saying, thus accounting for their jingoistic babble. Even if you talk until your mouth is dry they will not believe you because they are too blind to see evidence right in front of them. And because they cannot give evidence to the contrary, they are forced to resort to "my country is great your country sux" rhetoric.

At least we can talk to the MY posters here like rational human beings.





 
 
Manthor
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 12:14 PM 

Malaysians are capital people.Nice country,nice culture,just a few problems they need to sort out and they will zoom ahead.That's my view.Malaysia ada banyak potential.Mesti guna lah.

With discipline,industry,foresight and intelligence,Malaysia could well exceed any other country in SEA.A real pity about Indonesia though.Indonesia is such a waste.Imagine if they had a leader like Lee Kuan Yew in the beginning?

if that were the case;Indonesia would be a superpower by now.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login noname25)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 2 2004, 5:37 PM 

They had such a leader- his name was Sukarno.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Manthor)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 12:00 AM 

Don't know much about Sukarno.Somebody care tp enlighten me?

i know he was the president before Suharto overthrew him and that he started konfontasi with malaysia and singapura,though the brits and aussies helped fight him.

Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?

 
 
a young vietnamese man
(Login badneighbour)

Noname25

June 3 2004, 1:39 AM 

Noname25! you expect me to completely agree with you.... before you say something good about me?

Problems with my English? you're right, but not too bad to be unable to figure out what the messages imply even some strange terms.

You need evidence! numberial? history tells you all.

Please don't try to persuade someone by long-listing sth ....modern technology or anything like that. They only help you to play some kinds of game more effectively not help you to win a real war. REMEMBER! still feel confused? ask your big brother, The U.S, who is so experienced...

You have lots of money, and use it to buy top-end toys...then you feel confident saying to yourself "No one will dare to beat me, I'm am the strongest in ASEAN" pity!


 
 
Anonymous
(Login puml)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 1:46 AM 

We do have problem with the Thai and Indonesia and so do they with us but most of them we manage to come with some sort of agreement.

Our and their leaders do visit each other countries and at the end of it, most of the problem are solved or minimised through the negotiate table. Lot of compromise are made by both sides.

Thats the reason why Malaysia & Thailand has lot of JV project, just like the joint patrol, joint oil & gas exploration etc.

Somehow this method does not work with one of our neighbours. Just look at the post here and you can generally get the idea why this is not possible.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 1:59 AM 

>>They only help you to play some kinds of game more effectively not help you to win a real war. REMEMBER! still feel confused? ask your big brother, The U.S, who is so experienced...<<

Smartguy here, lets take a Singapore VS Vietnam war senario. If u cant win almost every game, do u think u can win the war? Singapore with our reserves and economic strength dont have to invade vietnam to win the war. We win most of the game, block your trading routes, deny you of basic neccesities..., vietnam will definately crumble.

>>You have lots of money, and use it to buy top-end toys...then you feel confident saying to yourself "No one will dare to beat me, I'm am the strongest in ASEAN" pity!<<

Ask yourself this, does vietnam dare to attack Singapore? What do u have to attack Singapore? If the answer is no and nothing respectively, then please shut up.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

RENTOKILL
(Login MALCON)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 9:57 AM 

VICTORY in war doesn't mean when an oppossing Army is wipe of. Victory means that battle, gunfights, skirmishes is over. Victory means and Invading force could establish order and Peace.

Victory can also be achieve if the attacker achieve their goals or Defender surrenders

U guys here ever consider Resistance? Resistance doesn't mean conscript or reservist fighting . but normal people that are sick of seeing their country being invade and stared too take arms and fight. I guess no Army will win if the Resistance is to strong. Remember Afganistan 1980s. The might of USSR couldnt stand against the united Mujahideen/freedom fighters.



Air Power doesn't determind Victory. Air power do help achieve Victory. The Army is the one that ensure Victory.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 10:36 AM 

>>Air Power doesn't determind Victory. Air power do help achieve Victory. The Army is the one that ensure Victory.<<

Thats how u see victory. In my opinion, for two opposition forces situated a distance from each other, overwheming air and sea power can determine the survival of one force, thus determine victory.

The prevailing power which can deny all basic neccesity of living for her enemy (such as medical/food/water supply, electricity over a long period) at the same time, denying all chances for the enemy to react with a counter-assualt, will achieve victory as the survival of her enemy irregardless of her people's will to survive or how massive her army is, will be short lived or at least all ability for her to counter-attack is diminished when without the basic neccesities of life.




    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 3, 2004 10:39 AM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 7:51 PM 

@ Manthor,
Icefire is not a Malaysian, he’s Singaporean, staying in China.
@ Icefire,
correct me if I’m wrong.
@ Dave,
Thanks for your courtesy, generalisation and blanket statement

- Lipan, you really should take a look at who Ice-fire is in the mod forum... One of the later threads now i reckon. You are referring to TV-Dog here.
Dave will have to be more matured before he can post again; if ever.

What they doesn't explain in detail is, out of 350,000 only 1/4 is trainded as field soldier. Other 3/4 is made up for administration, logistic, engineering and other supportive team. With all of reserve is mostly ultilised, how much more could singapore afford to consript? another 500,000? Malaysia have at least 24 million population could easily raise up 300-400 conscript in time of war or maybe more. Thailand in other hand could at least consript 1-2 million of conscript in time of war

- It is amazes me how you pluck figures from no-where Harimau. 3/4 of 350,000 troops are meant for admin,etc,etc leaving only 1/4 or less for combat. They are`nt and I think some SG forumners have explained why above. Ever wondered how ISrael does it? I don`t suppose thay had the bulk of thier troops doing admin work.

- Also, how on earth is a country going to rely on conscription when they don`t have one in the first place. You just don`t call up citizens to fight a war; much less have the time to train them; much less the weapons to arm all of them; much less the resources(food,other essentials,etc) and other equipment to marshall. And SEA nations are so close that any massive movement of men and resources would be easily detected;unless it`s a small puny island like Singapore. We`ve can`t move around much so you can`t really tell. And we mobilize our forces every now and then as part of the routine training of our forces and you really can`t tell when it is for real; if any. But really, it`s all for defence. We can`t be bothered to strike at anyone. We`ve got no time unless such time is forced upon us.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 3 2004, 7:54 PM 

Think I`ll let this thread run. If it goes out of hand again, it will be locked. I`ve signalled Luantic and the other mods. Also, if none does, you could always flag them via the complaints forum. God Speed to all.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login MALCON)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 4 2004, 2:47 PM 

>>Air Power doesn't determind Victory. Air power do help achieve Victory. The Army is the one that ensure Victory.<<

Thats how u see victory. In my opinion, for two opposition forces situated a distance from each other, overwheming air and sea power can determine the survival of one force, thus determine victory.

The prevailing power which can deny all basic neccesity of living for her enemy (such as medical/food/water supply, electricity over a long period) at the same time, denying all chances for the enemy to react with a counter-assualt, will achieve victory as the survival of her enemy irregardless of her people's will to survive or how massive her army is, will be short lived or at least all ability for her to counter-attack is diminished when without the basic neccesities of life.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Thats ur opinion . But still i think Army is the one who win the war.

Air Force and Navy cannot eliminate FreedomFighters/Resistance/Terrorist by it self. The only way for Air Force to Win is bombard the whole nation or Napalm the Jungle to ashes.


Still Resistance fighter remains the Victor. The only way to stop it is to kill the whole population.

 
 

(Login KJlost)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 4 2004, 3:04 PM 

Air Force and Navy does not win a war yes, they package it.

But sometimes, they do their so well, even a child can rip open that package.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 4 2004, 8:38 PM 

Through out history when a invading force occuppied another country, there sure be some form of resistance element remaining but did anyone doubt their victory over them???

For example the Nazi Germany occupation of France, the Japanese occupation of Malaya and even the Manchu occupation of the old Han China.

They did occupy the land and rule over them even with resistance and nobody will deny them their of victory over the conventional armies of the loser.

As for victory for SG, well, SAF is a defensive deterrent forces, we do not need to or even desire to occupy another country permanenetly becos it is totaly uneconomical becos we will need a large force to be stationed there unless of course there is gold mines or oil fields.

The next point will be political, in today situtation , if a nation is to occupy another nation , you will be eventually be force out by a UN force or by trade embargo by many nations sanction under the UN.(eg Iraq occupation of Kuwait, Vietanm occupation of Cambodia)

Therefore , what's the point for SAF to be so potent?

The point is when we are threaten, we have the ability to render the threat to be impotent, by totally destroyed the threat, that mean to destroy all their vital C&C, airbases and a/cs , navy bases and ships and as many gound assets as possible which could be done by today airpower alone. That to SAF and many armies in the world will be consider it a victory.

For example today Afganistan and Iraq, do you really think that US/UK allied forces really want to occupy those nations, all they want are to eliminate the threats to them(disruption of oil supplies & terrorist group), afterwhich they will be very happy to withdraw from there becos it will be costly just to station their troops over there if there is no threats to their national interest at all.


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 4, 2004 8:49 PM
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 4, 2004 8:46 PM
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 4, 2004 8:42 PM


 
 
andyddse
(Login andyddse)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 5 2004, 11:28 AM 

hi yaaaa, Top 5 armed force is SEA based on Budget even batter.....
MAF spent USD 2 Billion every year since 1998... how much the other SEA spent?.....


 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 10:38 AM 

defence expenditures are not a good comparison since many regional nation's defence spendings usually ends up disappearing into the thin air or dropped into a bottomless blackhole called "CORRUPTION".

while other nations hide their defence spendings under the accounts of other ministry...

and there are nations who cant even keep their accounts correct, much less really knows how much they really spend on defence.

 
 
andyddse
(Login andyddse)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 1:39 PM 

ze SAF spent about US 4 billion per year on paper, if not..

We should do a Survival way for SEA Armed Force lika a show in US for it Armed Force. Both current active and retired or reserve can join in. Live on Astro or what ever....

Than we can see how real solder do thing just for funn....

 
 


(Login MALCON)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 2:00 PM 

To GAry


Maybe u need more explanation.

Resistance fighters can be as powerful as an organised army if the number of the Fighters is damn lot. Then the factor of Sympathizer . Most Wars usualy have aggressors/invaders. When the aggressor conquers a country surely there will be sympathizer that will supply hi-tech arms to the fighters. Sympathizer also will provide military training, Covert ops and advisors. Mainly resistance/freedom fighter are made from remnants of soldier and Military personels. They will execute operations with Military precisions.

Afganistan, during the Soviet Occupation - The Resistance was too strong because Afgans are mainly muslim and they don't accept communism. In addition the resistance was succesful coz the US and The Arab nation supply them with weapons and military training. I've seen how they did that coz i have a video tape about it.

Afganistan today doesn't have fierce resistance coz two internal faction are up against each other. The people of Afganistan rejects taliban . So the US/Nato help to achieve that in helping the present Afganistan Government formerly known as Northern Alliance to rise to power.

In Iraq/GW 2 it is another story. The Resistance is developing to be stronger coz the Americans make a lot of mistakes. Eventhough quite a number of iraqis hate Saddam they also hate us because of Palestin, then the raid on the mosque in Iraq, the civilian casualties is high and we all must remember that Iraqis are more civilised and educated than the Afgans .


So in conclusion, Resistance movement can be as powerful as an organised army provided the number of fighters, tactics and Sympathizers.


    
This message has been edited by MALCON on Jun 6, 2004 2:03 PM


 
 


(Login MALCON)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 2:06 PM 

As for victory for SG, well, SAF is a defensive deterrent forces, we do not need to or even desire to occupy another country permanenetly becos it is totaly uneconomical becos we will need a large force to be stationed there unless of course there is gold mines or oil fields. >>>>>>


I didn't mentioned anything about SG occupying a country.

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 2:44 PM 

So in conclusion, Resistance movement can be as powerful as an organised army provided the number of fighters, tactics and Sympathizers.

---------------------------------------

isit??? what if the enemy employs covert actions to infiltrate the ranks of the guerillas like the isrealis?

or do what the russians did in chechnya?


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 6 2004, 8:34 PM 

To Keke,

Topgun1000 is a Thai or he has claimed ,not Vietnamese.

To Topgun1000,
Singaporean arrogant? Not really , rather proud!!!
But we certainly not rude to you. Your first post already insulted Singaporeans by saying we are "big mouth", big mouth to me is someone who has exaggerated something up to the point of untrue.

We have only stated the fact that the RSAF(SG's airforce)is the most potent in term of quality as well as quantity in SEA which many nationalities in this thread including your fellow countryman thainogkok has agreed, not only that we have also shown those not from SEA also think so too.

We have also stated that even we do not have the biggest army SEA but we did stated that we are most modern, equipped with latest high tech equipment for our army than any armies in SEA ; which is also a fact!!!

You question abt our training, and about our soldiers resolve to fight in a war.

We have already shown you that our soldiers received the best training than any armies in SEA, our top pilots are all trained in US , follow the same training as the USAF, which means that they are as good as the best in the world. Our army conduct training in SG, Thailand,Brunei,Phillipines,Taiwan,OZ, New Zealand, South Africa and in the near future India .Annually at least one large scale Bde/Div exe.

We also conducted many bilateral exe with many countries as well partake in many multilateral exe like the Cobra Gold in Thailand, Pitch Black in OZ, Red Flag in US and FPDA in SG and MY.

So looking at all training in various countries as well as all the multilateral exe,no armed forces in SEA could beat that.

As for resolve to fight, that will only be proven in real war,otherwise it will be just empty talk , no substance at all!

Is all the above not true, or big mouth???
Show me any info or data to dispute them, otherwise you are the big mouth!!!!

You can't argue with us & win simply becos you do not have anything to dispute what we have stated, only nationalistic empty talk!!!!




    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 6, 2004 8:38 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Conspiracy theory against SG???

June 6 2004, 8:43 PM 

One thing funny is that suddenly we have one(Young Vietnamese man)who claimed to be from Vietnam who have posted for the first time (24thMay)that SG's modern armed forces is useless becos SG is too small.

Then abt a week later another new poster Topgun1000 who claimed to be a Thai posted on the 31th May that all Singaporeans are big mouth.

Suddenly we have two new posters from countries that are consider rare in this forum appeared and both attack Singaporeans!!!

Both countries are considered to have the largest armies orbat as well as number of troops in SEA.

Then one old friend from MY ,Harimau started to troll for a flame war, MMmmm. wonder is there a conspiracy here!!!

Maybe they are both only one person and even maybe from different nationalities as they claimed!!!

Mods, are you guys listening??

If there is a conspiracy, they can hide but they will not get away!!

 
 


(Login MALCON)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 5:02 AM 

To Gary.

I've got nothinh to do with dis.

Maybe the poster that u mentioned are the same person or related that purposly create another account to flame SGians.


 
 
Anonymous
(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 6:58 AM 

Harimau started to troll for a flame war, MMmmm. wonder is there a conspiracy here!!!

wow..you have great imagination my dear gary. Hmm..i supposed you think i am topgun1000 and aswell as badneigbour? come on..wake up my dear. You know me soo long already and i don't start flame of war. I used to be emotional but now after a while, i learned the rule of the game and that is be polite and respect other people. I may said something that impolite but don't worry i am not afraid to apologized and will always tolerate other opinion. Some say I am flow with the wind, that is correct coz you need flexibilities to withstand storm. If you think i am a troll...try to view this forum from an outsider view and not as singaporean and you will see who is a troll around here. I am not saying you are being bias but every of one here are being bias toward their own nationalistic spirit. One thing I could say being a long time forumer here is, i don't need to used two three names to insult and start flame war. One more thing I am too old for all this trolling and war flaming already. Cheers.


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 6:58 AM 

I've got nothinh to do with dis.

Maybe the poster that u mentioned are the same person or related that purposly create another account to flame SGians.


Dun worry if you have nothing to hide.

Young Vietnamese man has actually admitted here that he has used mulitple accounts which itself already a violation of the rules of this forum, and he has in many times started flame baits in many threads in which the mods are already watching.

As for the conspiracy theory, I was just thinking aloud , but the mods here could find out eventually.

For those who think that they could hide behind a monitor is certainly naive.



 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 7:08 AM 

wow..you have great imagination my dear gary. Hmm..i supposed you think i am topgun1000 and aswell as badneigbour? come on..wake up my dear. You know me soo long already and i don't start flame of war. I used to be emotional but now after a while, i learned the rule of the game and that is be polite and respect other people. I may said something that impolite but don't worry i am not afraid to apologized and will always tolerate other opinion. Some say I am flow with the wind, that is correct coz you need flexibilities to withstand storm. If you think i am a troll...try to view this forum from an outsider view and not as singaporean and you will see who is a troll around here. I am not saying you are being bias but every of one here are being bias toward their own nationalistic spirit. One thing I could say being a long time forumer here is, i don't need to used two three names to insult and start flame war. One more thing I am too old for all this trolling and war flaming already. Cheers.

I was just thinking aloud, and I did not say that you are both of the new posters.

As the matter fact, the things that I have thought of might not be true.

Anyway, the mods have the means to find out. Just highlighting the situation to them.


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 7, 2004 7:10 AM


 
 

(Login harimau2000)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 7:44 AM 

hahahahhahaha...you are funny la garry. Be my guest ask lipan and faz1 and Lunatic and check who is this troll. I am eager to know what is the outcome of this what so call investigation. BTW, could you please inform me the result of the investigation? Mod? i think i am being a suspect here. That is soo cool. either way, garry you have such a great imagination. That one for sure.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 7 2004, 6:47 PM 

@ Harimau
I don`t think you joining the debate on several occasions when it was raging and purely an effort by someone to flame was helpful. It makes you look like a confederate.

The various inflammatory threads caused by Topgun`s comments have been deleted as well as his own. his intention was largely to flame. let`s just forget about this and have a constructive dialogue ther-after.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 7, 2004 11:41 PM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 7, 2004 6:55 PM


 
 

Anonymous
(Login lipanlapan)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 9 2004, 3:04 AM 

One thing funny is that suddenly we have one(Young Vietnamese man)who claimed to be from Vietnam who have posted for the first time (24thMay)that SG's modern armed forces is useless becos SG is too small.

Then abt a week later another new poster Topgun1000 who claimed to be a Thai posted on the 31th May that all Singaporeans are big mouth.

Suddenly we have two new posters from countries that are consider rare in this forum appeared and both attack Singaporeans!!!

Both countries are considered to have the largest armies orbat as well as number of troops in SEA.

Then one old friend from MY ,Harimau started to troll for a flame war, MMmmm. wonder is there a conspiracy here!!!

Maybe they are both only one person and even maybe from different nationalities as they claimed!!!

Mods, are you guys listening??

If there is a conspiracy, they can hide but they will not get away!! - Gary

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yeah, we could still remember Merlion, operation 12  etc., with their flame bait, and so on. We could expect this kind of thing in the future.

 


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 8:28 PM 

Ok lets do a real comparison between Vietnam and Singapore since we are seeing nothing but a bunch of insults without any facts to back it up.

You'll need an account to look at this University database article but it's free for 14 days with no credit card required. Just go to www.ciaonet.org if you really want to read it.

<a href="http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_may00siu01.html</a" target=_new>http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_may00siu01.html</a>;

""2. Role of Vietnam: Vietnam is a minimal counterbalance against China. Vietnam continues to be the most powerful military country in ASEAN. India has an abiding interest in Vietnam.""

This article clearly says Vietnam's military is still the most powerful in ASEAN. This article was written recently as well.

Now lets go look at some military stats in www.nationmaster.com

<a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_wea_hol</a" target=_new>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_wea_hol</a>;

Vietnam is the 12th most country in the world with the most weapons and 1st in South East Asia. Thailand comes in 2nd place in a distant 33th place most weapons holdings in the world.

<a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_arm_for_per</a" target=_new>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_arm_for_per</a>;

Here Vietnam is in the top 10 most military personnel in the world with 9th place in the world and 1st place in South East Asia, while Thailand is a distant 15th place.

Now here is a report on the known military weapons for each country in South East Asia written in 2002.

The report is too big so I'm just gonna highlight Vietnam,Thailand and Singpore here since they are the 3 biggest in South East Asia military I guess.

<a href="http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/SEAsiaMB022602.pdf</a" target=_new>http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/SEAsiaMB022602.pdf</a>;

For Manpower rating(1000) Vietnam has 484, Thailand 306 and Singapore 60.5

TOTAL COMBAT AIRCRAFT:

Vietnam has 189, Thailand has 153 and Singapore has 150

Vietnam has 65 attack fighters and 124 interceptors and 4 MR/MPA. Vietnam's airforce is mainly for intercepting attacking aircraft rather than attacking others.

Singapore has 150 attack planes and 8 Reece/FGA Recce and 4 AEW C41 BM/EW

Thailand 48 attack, 36 interceptors and 3 Reece

NAVY:

Vietam's naval manpower is 42, Thailand's is 68 and Singapore is 4.5

Someone said that Singapore's navy could block Vietnam's trade routes lol not with a manpower of 4.5

There are too much craft and types to list, so just click on the article to read how much battleships each country has. From the report Vietnam's navy is MUCH more bigger than Singapore's as well.

WEAPONS:

Main Battle Tanks, Vietnam has a WHOPPING 1315, Thailand has 333 and Singapore 80-100.

Active AIFV/Lt. Tanks Vietnam has 920, Thailand has 793, and Singapore 372.

Total APCs Vietnam has 1180, Thailand 970 and Singapore 1030.

Self Propelled Artillery, Vietnam has 30 and Thailand has 20.

Towed Artillery: Vietnam has 2300, Thailand 560, Singapore 306.

Vietnam also has 710 MRLs.

ANTIAIRCRAFT GUNS:

Vietnam has 12000 Anti-Aircraft guns. Thailand has 322 and Singapore has 30.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXPERIENCE:

Vietnam has fought and won in wars against 3 major powers in the 20th century, France,U.S and China.

Who has Thailand and Singapore ever defeated? Sure Singapore might have training, but there's a huge difference in real life fighting and training.

Also in Vietnam in order to graduate from highschool, everyone to have 2 years of military training. So the population of Vietnam is somewhat more ready for war than other South East Asian countries.


Remember Vietnam's military is one of the most secret in the world, no one outside of the military if Vietnam has more weapons or not.

Clearly if you look at Vietnam's military the most weapons and vehicles. Also Vietnam has the most real life combat experience by a huge factor as well.

Honestly if there was a war between Vietnam and Singapore, I doubt any of them would use their airforce, since they can be shot down with each other's AA craft and Vietnam has a whopping 12,000 with Thailand with 322 of them.

A shot down aircraft is bad publicity, and I doubt any South East Asian country would risk their expensive aircraft being shot down.

I think only a few countries like the U.S have the ability to effectively use their aircraft against another country in war.

Well there you have it.

Clearly with all my evidence and the fact that my university article says Vietnam has the most powerful military in ASEAN and India wants military cooperation because of that.

Vietnam has the most powerful military in ASEAN. Most articles I posted have said so.






    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 8:30 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 8:30 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 8:50 PM 

lol this is my first time in this forum. lol

Doesn't matter if SAF military is more advance. Quality only helps you to a certain extent.

If the enemy has too many weapons to overwhelm you then you can't do crap.

Vietnam's airforce was actually more advance than China's in 1979, but was actually much smaller.

by your logic then Vietnam should be able to take over China with it's more advance airforce back in 1979.

But now China has much more QUANTITY.

Do you honestly think that if you pitted one guy against 1000 guys with less advance weapons, that one guy would win?

Singapore's most advance fighter the F-16, and they only a few more of those than Vietnam's Su-27.

I really doubt a few extra F-16's is gonna crush Vienam's army in which Vietnam has waaaaaaay more weapons than Singpore and much more AA guns.

I've found LOTS of articles that say Vietnam has the most powerful military in ASEAN. I never seen one that said Singapore had the most powerful military in ASEAN. lol


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 9:06 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 9:05 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 8:51 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 8:52 PM 

The bulk of the weapons are ancient and antiquated (mig-21s?oh please..most of the weapons should be in the junkyard already)and the bulk of the troops who participated in the various wars are dead or close to it. Defending the state is one thing. With such a miniscule defence budget and practically no defence industry, where can you go with ancient cold war era equipment? Comparing Vietnam with the likes of the top most powerful countries in the world is just churlish. And why do you sound so familiar?


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:08 PM 

Doesn't matter if SAF military is more advance. Quality only helps you to a certain extent.

- to a large measure. otherwise countries would`nt be opting for it. Im pretty sure Vietnam would be in safe hands by using antiquated stuffs.

If the enemy has too many weapons to overwhelm you then you can't do crap.

- If the weapons are working in the first place and ready to be use in a proper war. Mostly rusting away.

Vietnam's airforce was actually more advance than China's in 1979, but was actually much smaller.

by your logic then Vietnam should be able to take over China with it's more advance airforce back in 1979.

- Oh really? Vietnam has a more advanced air-force than China in 1979?

But now China has much more QUANTITY.

- And not quality. Vietnam`s airforce can`t do squat.

Do you honestly think that if you pitted one guy against 1000 guys with less advance weapons, that one guy would win?

- If that guy is at the controls of a sophisticated system controlling a sophisticated array of weapons... but of course. This is what the new century of war-fare is all about.

Singapore's most advance fighter the F-16, and they only a few more of those than Vietnam's Su-27.

- This is really ridiculous. Vietnam has only how many Sukhoi 27s? even Malaysia`s new Sukhois SU-30s are better.

I really doubt a few extra F-16's is gonna crush Vienam's army in which Vietnam has waaaaaaay more weapons than Singpore and much more AA guns.

- AA guns? Wow. How old are they? Pretty vintage stuff huh. Surely, not like Baghdad and the first gulf war. Im sure they must be pretty effective.

I've found LOTS of articles that say Vietnam has the most powerful military in ASEAN. I never seen one that said Singapore had the most powerful military in ASEAN. lol

- That`s pure crap. The articles you have provided are not only questionable in terms of numbers and accuracy but makes no distiction in terms of quality nor the progress of weaponry over the decades. Vietnam`s military has fallen relative to other SEA nations over the decades. IT could well protect itself but could`nt do much out-side its limited limited sphere of influence.




 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:11 PM 

lol how do you know Vietnam's weapons are rusting and don't work? Have you seen the weapons themselves?

The fact that there are still landmines from the Vietnam War that still explode when people accidently step on them in this time and age shows that they certainly do still work.

Besides India has actually provided Vietnam with spare parts and actually modifed Vietnam's military equipment as well so I'm sure they still work.

As for the question about Vietnam's airforce more advance than China's during the 1979 war, here is proof.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/agency/plaaf-intro.htm</a" target=_new>http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/agency/plaaf-intro.htm</a>;

"During the China-Vietnam border conflict of 1979, the Chinese avoided air battles, probably at least partly because they lacked the confidence to challenge Vietnam's air force, which though far smaller was better armed and trained."

So I guess according to your logic, Vietnam should be able to take over China in 1979 since they have more advance warplanes during that time.

As for your question about my sources. The first source that I posted which says OUTRIGHT, that Vietnam's military is still the most powerful in ASEAN is from a University database source that schools have to pay thousands of dollars to subscribe to, and you can get a 14 day trial for free which is how I got to read the article.

Yeah like I'm gonna believe a Singaporean from a forum over a University database article about which country would win in a war.

Vintage AA my ass. Try PMU1s.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 9:15 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 9:12 PM


 
 

(Login KJlost)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:23 PM 

If what I've gotten about Singapore's F-16 is right, there are more than a 'few more' F-16s than Su-27s. Singapore's F-16s won't lose out in one-on-one measures either, and F-16 air-to-ground capability is pretty sweet. Besides, heavy air-defense doesn't negate air power--unless you're Russia, and your PVO operates MIG-31s as 'air-defense' assets--it impedes it. I'm willing to bet North Korea has FAR more triple-As and SAMs. Will that bother ROKAF KF-16s? Yes. Will it stop it? Doubt so.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:26 PM 

Like I said both countries are not willing to risk their small airforce and would pretty much rely on ground war. I think only the U.S,Britain,Israel and a few other countries in the world with an airforce advance and big enough to use air power in a war.

war planes cost a lot. A shot down one will bring bad publicity.

I don't think Vietnam and Singapore would be able to attack each other since they are separated by WATER.

Vietnam did take over Cambodia in 15 days and were able to hold out against Chinese forces in 1979 with 250,000 Chinese troops vs. 100,000 Vietnamese militia.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 9:27 PM


 
 

(Login KJlost)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:31 PM 

That's not right. Air power is and should be used in every way possible, especially for a country like Singapore who's got such a lead on many others in quality of their aircrafts. Loss is always an issue, but that doesn't mean Air Force will not go on dangerous missions. Smaller forces has even greater need for its air force to cripple the enemy before the ground engagement.


    
This message has been edited by KJlost on Jun 12, 2004 9:32 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 9:35 PM 

Yeah but the airforces for any SEA asian country is just way too small to launch a full scale assault. Not even China dared to use theirs in the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war. And after speaking to the forum moderators on www.china-defense.com they actually believe that even today China probably wouldn't use it's air force in a full scale assault.

It's just too risky.

Besides air power is meanlingless in Vietnam. Ask the Americans, air power didn't do jack to stop the Vietcong since there's too much jungles.

Also Vietnam is pretty mountainous as well. The AA guns will have a much more easier time to shoot down aircraft on the mountains.

Over 1000 American aircraft were shot down in the Vietnam War. I doubt Singapore's has anywhere close to that number of aircraft.

Mountains with AA guns means suicide for enemy aircraft.

I honestly think they both couldn't attack each other.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 10:35 PM 

Vietnem maybe strong in the 70s, but by today standard, you could say it is paper tiger.

The reason is becos the inventory of Vietnamese armed forces are mainly consist of obsolete equipment of the 60s.

The 1300+ MBT of Vietnam army ,abt 1000 are T-54/55 and Type 59, and abt 200 T-62. These MBT have been scapped or in reserve by most armies in the world except the poor countries.

As for light tank,400 Type63 & PT-76.

As for APC, abt 400 BTR50/60 8x8 wheeled of the 60s and unknown number of BTR-152(6x6) of 50s, they also have some tracked Chinese Type531.

All the above equipment are of at least 30-40 years and I believe greatly in need of modification to remain viable, but with poor economy of Vietnam, I dun think it has been done.

As for the airforce,the majority of them are the Mig-21s and some Mig-23s, both are totally useless in today standard as they are very limited operationally.

Even the Indian AF with their upgrade for their Mig-21s has problem with them becos of unreliable spares supply from the Russian.

Therefore, I will not be surprised that less 1/4 of the Vietnamese 180+ Mig-21/23 are still flying.( No upgrade, no money for spares therefore cannibalise from down a/c etc)

The only modern a/c that they have at this moment is abt 12 SU-27s and maybe 4 SU-30s.

As for the navy, none of the old frigates and corvettes are even missile armed!! and should be scrapped as they are useless in today warfare.

At the moment , they are getting some Russian designed patrol boats with SSM ,I believe abt 6 of them. They also have some Russian designed ASW boats with torpedo tubes.

Quantity is one thing, but the poor quality, that itself is one big question mark!!!


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 10:43 PM 

lol late 60's. Vietnam has been getting lots of weapons from the Soviet Union up to 1989. You do know Russia provided Vietnam with billions and armed them to take over Cambodia and crush Khmer Rouge rebels.

At Vietnam's peak in the 80's Vietnam had the 4th largest military in the world. Not the 60's.

The Vietnam War ended in 1975, So Vietnam really didn't have a base of operations and most of it's arms came in the 80's.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/04/18/INGO3657291.DTL

"North Vietnam may have conquered the South, but it is losing the peace. A country that two decades ago had the fourth strongest army in the world has squandered its wealth on quarreling with and fighting wars against most of its neighbors, and is poor and bankrupt as a result."

Notice it says Vietnam 2 decades ago which is the 80's had the 4th largest army in the world. But today it is only in 9th place.

lol Vietnam chose to downsize it's military because they no longer really have as many threats as they did before. But nevertheless Vietnam's military is still the largest and most powerful in ASEAN according to my articles.

I believe Vietnam also has a lot of Mig 29's as well.

But Vietnam's military is still one of the most secret in the world. Those figures you see of Vietnam's miliatary budgets are just guesses. Vietnam never reveals them. You don't know what Vietnam really has.

Before Vietnam bought those su-27 they actually had like 20 aircraft of the Sukhoi type.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 10:53 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 10:52 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 10:48 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 10:46 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 11:03 PM 

Yeah but the airforces for any SEA asian country is just way too small to launch a full scale assault. Not even China dared to use theirs in the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war. And after speaking to the forum moderators on www.china-defense.com they actually believe that even today China probably wouldn't use it's air force in a full scale assault.

It's just too risky.

Besides air power is meanlingless in Vietnam. Ask the Americans, air power didn't do jack to stop the Vietcong since there's too much jungles.

Also Vietnam is pretty mountainous as well. The AA guns will have a much more easier time to shoot down aircraft on the mountains.

Over 1000 American aircraft were shot down in the Vietnam War. I doubt Singapore's has anywhere close to that number of aircraft.

Mountains with AA guns means suicide for enemy aircraft.

I honestly think they both couldn't attack each other.


You are comparing China AF of th 80s and the AF of today??? LOL

Look at GW1, where USAF with mainly F-16/18/15 practically bombed the four largest army with modern SAM and AAA to pieces which is very much modern as compare Vietnam.

Today smart bombs and standoff weapons, making AAA practically useless, only SAM has some better chance of shooting down modern a/c with such standoff weapons.

That is why Vietnam bought some expensive S-300 from Russian otherwise why spend money on it if you think that Veitnam AAA could do the job? LOL

You are quite naive in modern weaponary, go read abt BVR missiles, precision laser or GPS guided Standoff weapons, SEAD a/c, the important of Awacs for today airwar,off boresight WVR misslies, HMS etc before you come here and embarrass yourself!!!


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 12 2004, 11:08 PM 

Sad that you have to resort to insults and can't provide proof of links.

Like I said before. Vietnam CANNOT invade Singapore and Singapore cannot invade Vietnam.

Vietnam's weapons and military is too big for Singapore to launch air assaults or anything and make it back in one piece.

Vietnam's weapons are too obsolete to go over the ocean to fight a war with Singapore.

Fact is both Vietnam and Singapore are too far from each other separated by water. Both countries cannot invade each other.

I wonder how well these smart bombs will perform in the jungles of Vietnam? lol

Vietnam is NOT Iraq. In the desert it is easy to use smart bombs, but in the jungles of Vietnam. lol

AA guns can be hidden in the jungle you know.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 11:13 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 11:11 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 12, 2004 11:09 PM


 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 12:51 AM 

I wonder how well these smart bombs will perform in the jungles of Vietnam? lol

>>> i believe... in a war of attrition.. smart bombs PGMs would be used against targets like airport, seaport, rail, cities, factories, roads, communication towers, military base, bridges,......... which are not OR cannot be hidden by a jungle.

>>> against jungles... the prefered air delivered weapons would be mass FAE, Cluster bombs and icendiary bombs.

Vietnam is NOT Iraq. In the desert it is easy to use smart bombs, but in the jungles of Vietnam. lol

>>> not really... most of the targets bombed in iraq are generally strategic targets (refer to my list above) rather then tactical targets....

>>> there would be no need to conduct CAS since there are no allied ground forces....

AA guns can be hidden in the jungle you know.

>>> AA guns hidden in a jungle is of no value... unless it is protecting a juicy target that would lure the enemy fighters to come and bomb it.

>>> AA guns however are finding itself clipped by the use of modern SOWs... like the longshot with 100km range... you wouldnt even see the enemy planes... only the bombs...

 
 

(Login KJlost)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:43 AM 

You don't hide cities in the forest do you? If Vietnam cannot invade Singapore as you said, then the destruction of their field army is least priority.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:04 AM 

lol you honestly think Vietnam can't defend itself from Singapore? LOL

Vietnam wins against U.S,France,China but Singaporeans think they can succeed where they failed. LOL yeah right.

lol Singapore is a small country, Vietnam would probably destroy the island with a few missiles. Vietnam would be able to survive a missile attack due to it's size, but Singapore would be crushed.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:07 AM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:06 AM


 
 

(Login KJlost)
WAFFer

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:10 AM 

What missiles?

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:11 AM 

well... with the end of the cold war... the absence of a USSR backer and a economy devasted by half a century of war.... i think its gonna be tough on vietnam to maintain its formal military capabilities.

furthermore... in the past.. much of their weapons are actually FOC from either PRC or USSR... nowadays... they are not so cheap.

as the time goes on... more and more of their weapons would become obselete.. especially in terms of air force and navy which are huge guzzler of funds.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:22 AM 

You see Vietnam CHOSE to downsize it's military. Vietnam has already pacified it's neighbours like Cambodia and Laos and installed Vietnamese-friendly governments or what the hell I'll just say it out loud, most of Vietnam's neighbours are really colonies of Vietnam that Vietnam controls.

The only neighbour who Vietnam doesn't control is China and even if Vietnam did spend it's money on it's military it wouldn't be able to control China.

So basically to Vietnam, there really is no more threat to Vietnam, so logically when you have no threats then you tend to downsize your army instead.

Singapore doesn't have that luxary with their muslim neighbours, and Malays who want to kick the Chinese out of Singapore.

So of course Singapore would have to spend lots of money to defend itself, Vietnam can rest easy knowing that most of it's neighbours are controlled by Vietnam and even China and Vietnam now have friendly relations.

Vietnam is important to U.S and Austrailia for being one of the few terrorist free countries in the world and one of the non muslim countries in South East Asia.

Vietnam has really no more threats.

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:27 AM 

wow.... this guy is obviously not on earth!

oh... just in case you bring out your SCUDs... i would love to remind you that singapore is about 1,000km from vietnam... most of your SCUDs wont even reach half way....

ooppss... make a mistake... i should say... NON of your SCUDs would even reach half way to singapore. hahahahaaa


    
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Jun 13, 2004 3:30 AM
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Jun 13, 2004 3:29 AM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:29 AM 

lol read up on history boy. You do know that Vietnam invaded Cambodia and installed a loyal government there, and the same thing with Laos.

As of today both those governments still run those countries. Vietnam already established it's own buffer territories.

lol watch out for Malaysia and all those Muslims South East Asian states Singaporeans. lol

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:33 AM 

thank you for your concern as well as your acceptance of singapore's superiority...

you really dont have to dig up all those muslim nonsense to scare us... we are not worried at all...

malaysia is only about 55% muslim... indonesia is more concern about falling apart then threaten singapore.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:37 AM 

As for the missiles. Oh I wasn't talking about launching them from Vietnam.

You do know Vietnam controls most of the Spratly Islands and has the most troops stationed there out of all the claimants and also Vietnam has an airport there as well and I believe also has missile turrets there to help defend those islands.

The Spratlys are pretty close to Singapore and Malaysia, if Vietnam wanted to, they can fire lots of missiles at Singapore from the Spratly Islands. I wonder if Singapore can intercept hundreds of "obsolete" missiles.

A few missiles would destroy that small country of Singapore. Sure Singapore might hit Vietnam hard, but the country is too big for Singapore to do that much damage to it before Vietnam's missiles destroy Singapore though.

Oh I never admitted Singapore has a superior military. What makes you think that? I conceded that they spend more money and that's because Vietnam has no more threats so why should Vietnam waste money?


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:44 AM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:43 AM


 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:47 AM 

well... you gotta be from another planet...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3714627.stm

check the link above and see for yourself... where is the sprately islands... its far further from singapore then vietnam itself...


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 3:48 AM 

Whoops I thought Singapore was near East Malaysia. lol it seems to be near West Malaysia, damn it's too small to see on the map so I assumed it was near East Malaysia.

Not matter West Malaysia is pretty close to South Vietnam. I'm sure missiles can be fired from the tiny islands on South Vietnam. You do know Vietnam occupies lots of islands in the Gulf of Thailand where Singapore is near as well with the largest one Phu Quoc Island which is the largest island that Vietnam has.

Don't worry though, I'm sure Vietnam and Singapore have good relationships.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:55 AM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 3:54 AM


 
 
Falconone
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:08 AM 

>>Not matter West Malaysia is pretty close to South Vietnam. I'm sure missiles can be fired from the tiny islands on South Vietnam. You do know Vietnam occupies lots of islands in the Gulf of Thailand where Singapore is near as well with the largest one Phu Quoc Island which is the largest island that Vietnam has.

Don't worry though, I'm sure Vietnam and Singapore have good relationships.<<

Well guys im back. It just seems like this guy tok too much cock. Can FAZ1 check on this guy....

Anyway, you tok alot about what missile crap. So, can u please provide me a link on Vietnam's missile arsenal and her installation in those whatever crap island u had mentioned. If u cant provide decent evidences..., your arguement bears no weight.

Back to Singapore. Have you heard of the MAV-1? Mindef had said that future UAVs can fill up the roles of other plateform, not jus for recon and I wonder what if we have a hundred of those armed stealth MAV-1 (which is not impossible) and we sent them to Hanoi........


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 9:47 AM 

my my..... i think this guy is really off the planet...

vietnam's SCUD cant reach singapore even if you place them south of thailands-malaysia border!

in fact... you need to place your SCUD in KL( malaysia's capital)... at least....


    
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Jun 13, 2004 9:49 AM
This message has been edited by BIG_BANANA on Jun 13, 2004 9:48 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 10:37 AM 

He is just a boy, dun even know the what USAF has done to Iraqi army, airforce navy , and all the strategic installations just by air war alone in Desert Shield.

He is so ignorant abt it which I believe he was still in diaper in 1991!!

He is still living in the 80s where Air Defences artillery could easily knock down modern a/c with smart bombs and standoff weapons. LOL

Modern a/c could fly at such high altitude that it will be beyond the reach of engagement ceiling of any AAA and with some modern standoff weapons of more than 100km, even the medium range SAM could not even engage.

Now most all armed forces are talking abt VSHORADs to at least medium range ADs Surface to Air Missiles (SAM) for mulit layered air defence system, and he is only talking the very last layer of it ,AD artillery, the close-in layer. LOL

The Vietnam armed forces is falling apart , with majority of equipment in real need of replacement(1200+ T-54/55/62, 150+Mig-21/23). she is now unable to defend even against the Thai.

It is true that in 80s, the Viets has more weapons to threaten the whole SEA but at this moment, it is the Thai that could threaten Vietnam.

Only the average, the Vietnam defence expenditure is abt 1.2 bil per year, Thai is abt 2.6 Bil , MY abt the same as Thai , and SG is 4.8 Bil /year.

If the trend continue, Vietnam will cease to be a threat even to MY!!!

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 11:59 AM 

Doesn't matter if Singapore can launch anything into Hanoi.

You see Singapore is the size of a city. Hell a few place missiles would destroy that whole country.

Wow Singapore would be able to destroy Hanoi, while all of Singapore would be destroyed.

If you look at Iraq and Israel, their countries are only a little distance less than between Vietnam and Singapore.

And Iraq with it's missile distance restrictions were able to shoot a chinese missile that hit Isreal in the Iraq War and were able to hit Isreal even more with more missiles and inferior ones during the first gulf war.

But Singapore is like a size of a crumb on the map, a few hits with missiles would destroy that place.

I don't know why your talking about the USAF, I'm sure the USAF and the U.S can take over Vietnam now, but I'm talking about Singapore, not the U.S here. Singapore is not the U.S. LOL That country is small, hell it doesn't have enough troops to take over Vietnam.

lol Vietnam occupies strategic locations on the Laotian-Thai border and Cambodian-Thai border. lol you honestly think Thai could take over Vietnam.

lol yeah Thailand and Singapore take over Vietnam, while U.S,France and China couldn't.

Fact is we already pacified our neighbours so we just concentrate on defense.

And for Vietnam spending 1.2 billion a year, you don't know, that's just a GUESS, Vietnam doesn't show it's military budget you know.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 12:05 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 12:02 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login noname25)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 1:16 PM 

Chee bye kia what well placed missiles?!!!


Excuse me, the range of Vietnam's Scud B is 300km... Singapore is at least 500km away from Ho Chin Minh City... how the fark are your bloody missiles going to land on us huh?

Its seems to me... you probably think u can shoot them out of ur ass... but hello this is the real world okay... if ur scuds can hit singapore... i can sh*t gold bricks all over Vietnam and hopefully solve the proverty there...


    
This message has been edited by noname25 on Jun 13, 2004 1:16 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 1:31 PM 

rofl who said anything about shooting them from Ho Chi Minh city. lol

Vietnam has islands in the gulf of Thailand.

Phu Quoc Island itself which has an area 585 km squared. is almost comparable to the size of Singapore which is 682.7 squared km.

Singapore is just too damn small to take over a much more bigger country like Vietnam. I honestly don't think they have enough manpower to take over Cambodia. lol

Singapore's GDP is what? $112 billion.

Vietnam's GDP is $183 billion.

Yes Singapore is more richer in terms of average per person, but if you compare their total GDP, Vietnam's is higher.

If Vietnam wanted to they could just starve off their people like North Korea and put all their money into weapons and with more TOTAL GDP than Singapore, Singapore would be dust.

Vietnam's poverty rate is only 29% compared to other South East Asian countries like Phillipinies with 40% which had no wars, or economic sanctions. Vietnam was ruined by major wars and economic sanctions from almost every country except for the Soviet Union. And still it's poverty rate is only 29%. lol Before the Vietnam War, Vietnam's economy was better than Korea's back then and Saigon 's economy was like Singapore's as well. Singapore is just lucky Vietnam was able to defeat the U.S in the Vietnam War to get economic sanctions.

Yes Vietnam is poor due to economic sanctions but Vietnam is a country with lots of food with Vietnam being the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world. But their people aren't starving.



    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 1:48 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 1:43 PM 

Do you know that Sg has abt 100 ICBM with 10 nuclear warhead each? Haha

You will not believe it and likewise other here will not believe it too!!!

Why? becos I dun have any proof therefore everyone here will regard it as vapourware!!!!

Just like you talk abt long range missiles that Viet has, show everyone here the proof!!! LOL

As the matter of fact , if Vietnam do have long range missiles in the 80s, US would have then regard Vietnam as a rogue nation just like N Korea today!!

You said that the USSR has given you guys a lot of modern weapons in the 80s, LOL
USSR then was in the verge of economical collapsed, they dun even have sufficient money to pay their own conscript soldiers in Afganistan let alone gave away free modern weapons to you!! LOL Scrapped weapons maybe.

Vietnam is one of the poorest nation in SEA, MY and Thailand are certainly richer than Vietnam. Vietnam without USSR and PRC support is nothing.
Check the net, the proof are all in statistics!!!

For example the GDP/cap for Vietnam in 2002 is USD436, whereas the Thailand is USD2,060 abt 4.7 times more than Vietnam, MY has abt USD3,905, abt 9 times more,as for SG is abt USD20,714., almost 58 times more!!!!!

The fact is ,Veitnam eventhough has a lot weapons but are mostly obsolete weapons that are suppose to be scrapped by today standard, there is some orders of modern weapons like the SU-27/30 in small qty , a few missiles armed patrol boats etc but insufficient to replace all the obsolete equipment.
The reason is Vietnam is damn poor as compare to the rest of SEA, therefore unable to keep up with the rest of SEA.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 1:54 PM 

Before you post anymore, show us the proofs that Vietnam has anything you have stated, long range Scud, Mig-29s an lot of SU-30s!!!!! LOL

Otherwise it is all vaporware!!! LOL

Likewise, vapourware is something every here could dispense, for example like SG has abt 1000 F-22 stealth fighters that have range of 10,000km, a standoff weapons of range of 5,000km with nuclear tips and 10000 ICBM with 1000 warhead each and could even target the moon!!!LOL

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 1:57 PM 

Yes GDP per Capita does count, but Vietnam's TOTAL GDP is higher than Singapore's. Unlike other countries, Vietnam is communist and doesn't care about it's people. If they wanted to, they could put all the GDP into buying weapons and could buy more weapons with it's higher GDP but the result would be more poorer civilians.

As for Vietnam's economy here's something interesting.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aDElTVQOD_UA&refer=asia

Vietnam's economy is set to beat Thailand's, Phillipines and Indonesia by 2020.

Vietnam was poor due to U.S economic sanctions by the whole world except the Soviet Union and even the Soviet Union is poor as well.

Now that sanctions are being lifted, Vietnam's economy has been rising a lot and analyst believe Vietnam will surpass those countries I listed above by 2020.

Vietnam's poverty rate today is actually lower than the Phillipines and the funny part is Vietnam's still has some sanctions on it and isn't even in the WTO yet.

lol Vietnam's economy was actually higher than Korea's and most SEA countries before the Vietnam War, and Saigon was comparable to Hong Kong back then.

How fitting that when Vietnam is out of isolation it's economy will surpass that of it's neighbours who didn't have economic sanctions by 2020.

My claims about Vietnam being able to shoot missiles in Singapore, isn't half as crap as your claims that Singapore can take over Vietnam. LOL


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 2:01 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 2:00 PM


 
 

(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:06 PM 

Yes GDP per Capita does count, but Vietnam's TOTAL GDP is higher than Singapore's. Unlike other countries, Vietnam is communist and doesn't care about it's people. If they wanted to, they could put all the GDP into buying weapons and could buy more weapons with it's higher GDP but the result would be more poorer civilians.

Actually GDP for Vietnam in 2002 is USD 35.1Bil, SG is USD 87bil, more than two times of Vietnam.

But for measure of wealth, usually by per capita so to reflect how wealth is shared among the population, which in this case 58 times more!!!!!!

For Veitnam to overtake other countries like in 16 years, we will see, no point talking abt things that have not even happen yet. LOL


http://www.worldbank.org/data/countrydata/countrydata.html

My claims about Vietnam being able to shoot missiles in Singapore, isn't half as crap as your claims that Singapore can take over Vietnam. LOL

Who say that SG could take over Vietnam?!?
All we say that SG airforce could bomb Vietnam at will with our superior airforce over Vietnam!!!

When you said abt your AA guns could protect Vietnam from airstrikes,LOL
We show you the effect of modern airforces as demontrated in GW1.

AA guns is useless against high flying with precision bomb and standoff weapons strike a/c like our F-16D 52+ SEAD capable a/c!!!!!


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 13, 2004 2:15 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:12 PM 

Not really according to the Cia world factbook.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sn.html

Singapore's GDP is $112.4 billion (2002 estimate)

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vm.html

Vietnam's GDP is $183.8 billion (2002 estimate)

Yeah but you see Vietnam's communist government usually keeps the money for themselves. Instead of the people getting most of the GDP, it's the government that keeps it.

It doesn't even matter, since Vietnamese people may not have money to buy cars,TVs and whatever, but Vietnam has PLENTY of food to live on. Vietnam is the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world. It's poverty rate is lower than the Phillipines because no one is actually starving.

I'm not trying to make fun of Singapore or anything like that, I think it is a very sucessful country actually, but anyone who thinks they can take over Vietnam is just ignorant.

As for AA guns, I do believe Vietnam has a complex SAMs and even S3000 PMU defenses as well.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/EI05Ag02.html


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 2:17 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 2:15 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:23 PM 

Purchasing Power Parity is and GDP is two different thing. LOL

The link I have to you is from the World bank, you could get similar data from IMF or other reliable organisation that reflect the same conclusion.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:25 PM 

What you don't trust the CIA?

 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 2:38 PM 

Read your own link properly,and you should know abt the condition of Veitnam armed forces today!!!!

Between 1965 and 1972, the Soviets supplied to North Vietnam a total of 95 missile complexes - initially SA-75M "Dvina" and later S75 "Desna" - as well as 7,658 SAMs. However, both "Dvina" and "Desna" were not the most advanced Soviet designs and Hanoi did not get the more up-to-date S125 "Volkhov" during the war.
The Vietnamese military reportedly complained that they were getting missiles of obsolete designs. In some cases, the Vietnamese even removed fresh paint from missile complexes and discovered old marks suggesting that the weapons were brought from East Germany or Poland.


In 1972, and not even the latest Russian SAM, which should be more or less obsolete by now becos it were already obsolete in Warsaw Pact when they are deliverd to Vietnam, only recently bought 2 battery of modern S-300, the rest are obsolete in 1970 even for Warrasw pact countries!!! LOL

Yes, Russian provided many weapons system to Vietnam but never the latest and also to them they are obsolete, the reason is given below:

Some of the missile complexes supplied to Vietnam from the Soviet Union during the war were actually second-hand weapons, produced in 1956-1958. The main reason for Moscow's failure to supply North Vietnam with the newest armaments was the Kremlin's fear that the Vietnamese could leak Soviet military secrets to the Chinese.

That is why I say that Vietnam has many weapons system of the 60s which four decades later today, they are all obsolete and should be scrapped!!!!!

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/EI05Ag02.html


    
This message has been edited by gary1910 on Jun 13, 2004 2:42 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 4:29 PM 

Can we lets stop the crap and let that smart guy give us a link of what **** missiles Vietnam have. No point giving him facts while he just refuse to accept.

He can say all he want on how vulnerable Singapore is in the event of a missile strike. But Vietnam have those missiles? He said that Vietnam have a larger GNP than Singapore, but isnt it the fact is that Singapore spend more and invest efficently in defense?

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 4:31 PM 

Yeah but do you know for sure that Vietnam's weapons don't work.

Like I said no one knows what Vietnam really has. Unlike other countries most of their military hardware is kept secret.

Vietnam is TRYING to downsize it's army because it has really no more threats.

You can't compare a country that is trying to downsize their military and one that is trying to improve theirs due to threats from their neighbours.

Now if there was a threat towards Vietnam right now, Vietnam would surely take the money they have and spend it in whatever way they have to defeat that threat.

But there is no threat right now.

Vietnam spends like what? 1.2 billion a year? Do you know where that money goes? No it's kept secret. Hell 1.2 billion is just a guess and no one knows the true numbers and what Vietnam really has.

Vietnam has the most troops in ASEAN and the 9th largest in the world.

I really really doubt Singapore's small airforce would be able to harm Vietnam in anyway.

Because #1. I doubt Singapore would use their WHOLE airforce against Vietnam and leave Singapore skies unguarded against their other neighbours.
Vietnam would probably use all their Su-27,Su-30,S3000 PMUs against those.

Is Singapore willing to use their whole airforce against Vietnam? And leave their airspace unguarded?

I'll say this one last time, Vietnam can't invade Singapore, and Singapore can't invade Vietnam. They are both separated by water and I doubt Singapore has enough amphibous assault ships to launch an invasion of Vietnam.

If France,America and China couldn't win against Vietnam, what chance does Singapore have?

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 4:44 PM 

>>Because #1. I doubt Singapore would use their WHOLE airforce against Vietnam and leave Singapore skies unguarded against their other neighbours.
Vietnam would probably use all their Su-27,Su-30,S3000 PMUs against those.<<

Let mi wonder, how ur SU-27, SU-30 S-300 going shot down something u cant even see (note if we use our MAV-1).

>>Is Singapore willing to use their whole airforce against Vietnam? And leave their airspace unguarded?<<

Does Singapore need air units to guard our airspace in time of non-tensions with our neighbours. I believe our ADA units can do the job quite well. Anyway, we dun need all 70 F-16s + 40 F-5S + 50 A-4SU to trash vietnam.

>>I'll say this one last time, Vietnam can't invade Singapore, and Singapore can't invade Vietnam. They are both separated by water and I doubt Singapore has enough amphibous assault ships to launch an invasion of Vietnam.<<

Who wants to invade u?

>>If France,America and China couldn't win against Vietnam, what chance does Singapore have?<<

If Singapore will to fight Vietnam...., it is a different war in which u had fought with the rest.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 4:59 PM 

Singapore's best airplane is what the F-16? Those are old. Hell even a Mig-29 is comparable to those. Even the Su-27 was created in the 80's as well. Does Singapore have an F-22 Raptor?

lol funny how Singaporeans trust so much in their toys. lol advantage in technology doesn't always mean victory. U.S experienced that in Vietnam, so did France and so did China.

How many more countries think that superior technology will mean a victory in Vietnam?

I guess no one will ever learn, but then again it is always an advantage to have an enemy who underestimates you.

Again you are assuming Singapore spends more money on military than Vietnam. But you don't know for sure how much money Vietnam spends on it's military, the details of it's military are mostly kept secret and even the budget is kept secret as well.

Do you know India has been modifying Vietnam's equipment? And Vietnam is actually in the process of renovating it's military? But the only facts we have on their military are the ones from the 80's, and the few little details about weapons purchases that is publically disclosed.

Hell did you know Vietnam has been stealing Russian technology and one of them was caught trying to smuggle "car parts" into Vietnam from Russia and it turned out to be Russian military technology?

You can't compare a military that releases very few details about their military.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 5:33 PM 


>>Singapore's best airplane is what the F-16? Those are old. Hell even a Mig-29 is comparable to those. Even the Su-27 was created in the 80's as well. Does Singapore have an F-22 Raptor?<<

Can Vietnam's Su-27 fight with our F-16? I doubt so yeah? Everyone knows that in terms of training and weaponary we are better. Wanna fight us?

How many Su u have? What if we bomb it on ground? Does Singapore need our F-16s to bomb Vietnam? Even if so, with our E-2C we can spot u and shoot u down first in every engagement. Talking so much about ur Su-27 ....lolx.

>>lol funny how Singaporeans trust so much in their toys. lol advantage in technology doesn't always mean victory. U.S experienced that in Vietnam, so did France and so did China.<<

U are an idiot. How many times must i repeat that the war US fought is a different war Singapore is going to fight. If US doesnt focus on invading Vietnam and just continue to bomb it straight to the stone age, well she will win.

>>I guess no one will ever learn, but then again it is always an advantage to have an enemy who underestimates you.<<

It is you who underestimate Singapore not us.

>>Again you are assuming Singapore spends more money on military than Vietnam. But you don't know for sure how much money Vietnam spends on it's military, the details of it's military are mostly kept secret and even the budget is kept secret as well.<<

Details of most military is kept in Secret. Isnt it the same for Singapore? Unclassified infomation had spoke that Singapore is better than Vietnam, lets not tok about the classified ****.

>>Hell did you know Vietnam has been stealing Russian technology and one of them was caught trying to smuggle "car parts" into Vietnam from Russia and it turned out to be Russian military technology?<<

So? Vietnam is having problem securing the Spartly from China eventhough she have all those '' stolen technologies '', that make mi wonder what stolen technology vietnam have? Does vietnam have Satelites, GPR-guild weapons or even incorporate NCW? I doubt u know whats NCW.



    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 13, 2004 5:36 PM


 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 5:38 PM 

>>Singapore's best airplane is what the F-16? Those are old. Hell even a Mig-29 is comparable to those. Even the Su-27 was created in the 80's as well. Does Singapore have an F-22 Raptor?<<

The F-16s are old? U must be ignorant to say that. The F-16D 52+ is newer than ur SU-27 for heaven sake.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 5:43 PM 

Vietnam's Military expenditure : $650 million (FY98)

Singapore's Military expenditure: $4.5 Billion


Wanna compare?

Source: CIA factsbook


    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 13, 2004 5:44 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 5:44 PM 

Singapore keeping their military secret? I see an article about Singapore's military like every week. lol

lol actually U.S did bomb Vietnam like crazy. They used more bombs on Vietnam than all the bombs in World War 2. North Vietnam cities were bombed like crazy and they still couldn't defeat them.

Also after many years of bombing the U.S believed that bombing was ineffective against the Vietcong.

Air power is not enough to win a war espsically against Vietnam. You need ground troops to get in there to do the real damage.

Does Singapore have enough bombs than all the bombs in World War 2 combined?

You do know the Su-27 is faster and flies higher than the F-16. If it was crap than Malaysia wouldn't have rejected U.S to buy their planes and picked Soviet ones instead.

You say Singapore's pilots are more well trained? lol prove it. Vietnam's air pilots are trained in Russia you know. And in 1979, Vietnam's airforce was more advance and better trained than China's which I provided proof in my article above.

This is my last post here and like I said before, the articles I posted above clearly said outright, that Vietnam's military is still the most powerful in ASEAN and that's why India believes Vietnam is their gateway to South East Asia.

Find me articles that say Singapore's military is the most powerful in ASEAN?

I'm not gonna believe Singporeans from a forum over a University database article.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 5:56 PM 



>>Singapore keeping their military secret? I see an article about Singapore's military like every week. lol<<

There is an article of the US armed force every week. They dun keep their armed force in Secret?

>>lol actually U.S did bomb Vietnam like crazy. They used more bombs on Vietnam than all the bombs in World War 2. North Vietnam cities were bombed like crazy and they still couldn't defeat them.<<

Do u know that onli 20% of all dumb bombs hit there target? I believe the amount of hits we use on Vietname using smart bombs will be more than all of what US use mainly by dumb bombs.

>>Also after many years of bombing the U.S believed that bombing was ineffective against the Vietcong.<<

Im not interested in Vietcongs. Im more interested in giving the innocent people of Vietnam a hard time if they try to be funny with Singapore.

>>Air power is not enough to win a war espsically against Vietnam. You need ground troops to get in there to do the real damage.<<

Our ground troops wont be effective agaisnt Vietnam. The hungry and desperate vietnamnese if effective to tear vietnam down. Our armed force will focus on cutting all available supplies to Vietnam and deprieve her of all basic neccesity. We will not bomb u to the stone age, but make u live in stone age.

>>Does Singapore have enough bombs than all the bombs in World War 2 combined?<<

Dun worry, we make our own bombs.

>>You do know the Su-27 is faster and flies higher than the F-16. If it was crap than Malaysia wouldn't have rejected U.S to buy their planes and picked Soviet ones instead.<<

Dun worry, our AMRAAM C5 flies higher, and faster than ur SU-27. We will get u down anyway.

>>You say Singapore's pilots are more well trained? lol prove it. Vietnam's air pilots are trained in Russia you know. And in 1979, Vietnam's airforce was more advance and better trained than China's which I provided proof in my article above.<<

Singapore's pilot train for 5-10 years almost every day in US. U say we aint more well trained? Our pilots will be pitting agaisnt Indian SU-30MKI this year, your pilots train against F-16 b4?

I dare say that our pilots are more well train than that our China. I dun give a damm if Viet pilots is better than the chinese counterparts..., the fact that our operational rate is higher, the fact that we have overseas deployment, the fact that we train with a spectrum of different pilots shows that we are better train than the Viets.

>>This is my last post here and like I said before, the articles I posted above clearly said outright, that Vietnam's military is still the most powerful in ASEAN and that's why India believes Vietnam is their gateway to South East Asia.<<

LOLx. Most powerful?? OKOK, a simple question lah. Vietnam's army have her own RnD and Military industry anot?

>>Find me articles that say Singapore's military is the most powerful in ASEAN?<<

No problem.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:01 PM 

"The fact that the SAF has risen to become a new generation and powerful army in Asia clearly shows that no foreign country can hope to invade Singapore without having to pay a heavy price."

Liu Taian
Nanyang Siang Pau
(Chinese-language daily, Malaysia)
September 2000


"Although not battle-tested..., the SAF remains the strongest military force in the region."

Robert Karniol
Asia Pacific Editor
Quoted in Jane's Defence Weekly
Extract from The Straits Times
2 September 1998

"Singapore's sustained high defence spending has funded continuous improvements to its military capabilities".

Tim Huxley
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore
2000

"Singapore's Army is trained, organised and equipped to mount protracted combined-arms operations, by day or night, against a conventionally armed aggressor who may be numerically, but not necessarily technologically, superior."

Tim Huxley
Jane's Intelligence Review
April 1996

Alone in ASEAN, Singapore has a balanced well-equipped air force...Their weapons are the best in the region...The RSAF is the most formidable air force in ASEAN."

Mark Farrer
Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter
1998

"...As far as the development of a professional navy (is concerned), Singapore is several steps ahead of anyone else in the region."

Robin Keil
US Defence Analyst
Defence News
June 1999


"The SAF is an integrated armed force. It is not dominated by any single service...The capability of the SAF is measured by the combined strength of the integrated fighting force."

Prasun K. Sengupta
"Singapore strives for Total Security and Total Defence"
Asian Defence Journal
February 1998


''The defence community recognises that it must master the harnessing of technology to develop secret solutions that can surprise aggressors. Such solutions underpin the SAF's ability to deliver decisive operational blows and devise counter-measures to equipment that may be used against it."

David Boey
The Business Times
22 October 2002

"...the republic's population is now one of the most highly educated in Asia. This yields benefits in terms of operational capability...allow even conscripts to operate sophisticated, modern military equipment effectively."

Tim Huxley
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore
2000

"...Singapore ground forces are considerably more competent tactically than those of its neighbours...".

MAJ Dana Dillon
Southeast Asian specialist at the Pentagon
in "Contemporary Security Challenges
in Southeast Asia"
Parameters

"...in many ways the most impressive military force in contemporary Southeast Asia".

Tim Huxley
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore
2000


How many quotes u need some more?

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:06 PM 

Those quotes mostly say in the Region. Which could mean the island nations around Singapore.

Also most of them just say they are impressed or formidable and not the best.

And the last quote just says it's the most impressive in many ways and not in outright everything.

The only few ones that talk about ASEAN is the most formidable airforce in ASEAN. But airforce is only one factor and not the whole military.

Most of those quotes say Singapore's military technology is the best which I actually agreed and actually said so, but numerically Vietnam's is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more in numbers.

Again that 650 millon budget is just a guess by analyst and is not what Vietnam released.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 6:09 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 6:07 PM


 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:10 PM 



>>Those quotes mostly say in the Region. Which could mean the island nations around Singapore.<<

Vietnam is included in ASEAN region my boy.

>>The only few ones that talk about ASEAN is the most formidable airforce in ASEAN. But airforce is only one factor and not the whole military.<<

Are u blind or i have to highlight a number of quotes which said that our armed force not onli the air force is better? Unless Vietnam is not in SEA, i have nth to say.

Look here!

"Although not battle-tested..., the SAF remains the strongest military force in the region."

Robert Karniol
Asia Pacific Editor
Quoted in Jane's Defence Weekly
Extract from The Straits Times
2 September 1998

"Singapore's Army is trained, organised and equipped to mount protracted combined-arms operations, by day or night, against a conventionally armed aggressor who may be numerically, but not necessarily technologically, superior."

Tim Huxley
Jane's Intelligence Review
April 1996

"...As far as the development of a professional navy (is concerned), Singapore is several steps ahead of anyone else in the region."

Robin Keil
US Defence Analyst
Defence News
June 1999

"...in many ways the most impressive military force in contemporary Southeast Asia".

Tim Huxley
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore
2000

>>Again that 650 millon budget is just a guess by analyst and is not what Vietnam released.<<

U dun trust the CIA?

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:18 PM 

Oh I know Vietnam is in ASEAN, but the quotes that said Singapore is the most powerful in the region may not have been necessarily implied ASEAN.

When people think of Singapore and it's enemies, they usually think of the island states, and that quote probably meant that Singapore can easily handle it's enemies.

Vietnam and Singapore have basically no significant history with each other and are pretty far away compared to the other ASEAN neighours.

When your other quotes use the word ASEAN, they just say Singpore's military is formidable and is good, but not the most powerful.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:25 PM 

>>Oh I know Vietnam is in ASEAN, but the quotes that said Singapore is the most powerful in the region may not have been necessarily implied ASEAN.<<

Singapore is in the region of Asia, within it, a region of SEA. Is there any other region? U studied geography?

>>When people think of Singapore and it's enemies, they usually think of the island states, and that quote probably meant that Singapore can easily handle it's enemies.<<

What island state? Malaysia or Indonesia an island state? LOLX. Is there any island state except Singapore in ASEAN?

>>When your other quotes use the word ASEAN, they just say Singpore's military is formidable and is good, but not the most powerful.<<

Hey the quote never say formidable. It said '' most formidable '' which also means most powerful.

"...in many ways the most impressive military force in contemporary Southeast Asia".

Tim Huxley
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore
2000


U see the word ""most impressive""? If u studied english, most impressive can be read as most advance in the context of military technology or most powerful in the context of military might.





    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 13, 2004 6:30 PM


 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:27 PM 

u know what byron? U are a sickening idiot. Despite all the facts in ur face, u still refuse to see it. Hey i wish not all vietnamnese is like u...., or else she will nv rise.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:29 PM 

Most impressive in terms of the high advance technology.

Yes I agree that Singapore can defend itself but cannot take over another country except for maybe the Phillipines or Brunei.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:32 PM 

>>Yes I agree that Singapore can defend itself but cannot take over another country except for maybe the Phillipines or Brunei.<<

Im not interested in invading or taking over Vietnam. If Vietnam wants to be hostile, im more interested in seeing the people of Vietnam suffer when we deny them of any necessity until they admit defeat, sign a truce and pay up a compensation.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:33 PM 

>>Most impressive in terms of the high advance technology.<<

Most impressive doesnt onli mean technology. It could mean our operation status, our level of training and our ability to wage a war.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:36 PM 

Most impressive in terms of the high advance technology.

Yes I agree that Singapore can defend itself but cannot take over another country except for maybe the Phillipines or Brunei.

- Yes and Vietnam took over rump Cambodia. What a great achievement it must have been for the great Vietnamese army.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:37 PM 

You twist and turn at the face of compelling truth Byron. Fortunately, your namesake was`nt like so at all.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:38 PM 

Admit defeat Byron, admit defeat.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:39 PM 

lol I don't think Singapore can deny Vietnam any necessity.

Is Singpore's navy large enough to blockade the South China sea? Even if they could, Vietnam is not surrounded by water like other SEA countries. Food can come in by the route of China,Cambodia,Laos, and the governments of Cambodia and Laos are actually Vietnamese controlled and take orders from Hanoi.

If for some odd reason Singapore could blockade any route(which I really really doubt) then Vietnam can supply itself with food.

Vietnam isn't like Singapore. Vietnam is rich in natural resources with being the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world.

As for air, Vietnam does have some modern aircraft and modern anti-air missiles, not to mention that Vietnam during the Vietnam War shot down over 1000 U.S aircraft and that was with troops with guns.

Can Singapore aircraft detect troops hiding in the mountains or forests shooting at their aircraft?

I believe in the Iraq war, many helicoptors were shot down by Iraqi farmers.

In Vietnam it was much more worse, over 1000 of them were shot down.

Not to mention in the mountain regions, it is much more easier to hit an airplane.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:43 PM 

And the topic is about the best armed forces in SEA; not the ability to take over a country. Vietnam`s years of decay made it absolutely necessary to seek a change to market systems. A sorry reflection on the state of its military. A little too late as the rest of SEA are already under way. And it is`nt about GDP in spite of Vietnam`s miniscule GDP, it`s about how that money is spent per person. Vietnam`s low defence spending and antiquated systems fare roughly well with the armed forces of countries like North Korea. Too bad it is`nt the 1960s otherwise it would have been awesome.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:45 PM 

Yes and Vietnam took over rump Cambodia. What a great achievement it must have been for the great Vietnamese army.

-Faz1

lol yeah took over Cambodia in just 15 days. Yeah Cambodians are easy to defeat but taking over in just 15 days is just like a new record, considering they were supplied and funded by China and the U.S.

Not to mention Vietnam was fighting China AT THE SAME time they were in Cambodia.

China launched the Sino-Vietnam war right after the invasion of Cambodia and we had to invade Cambodia and hold off against a world power at the same time.

Most of Vietnam's troops were in Cambodia, and thus not one single army unit fought against China.

It was fought by Vietnamese militia and local police.

250,000 PLA vs. 100,000 Vietnamese milita and local police.

Lets see Singapore take over another country and defend itself from a world power at the same time.

I would like to see Singapore's military history. How many wars have they won?

The Vietnam War was not the first war Vietnam won against all odds.

Vietnam defeated all 3 Mongol invasions, kicked out the Chinese army back in the old days killing 70,000 Chinese troops.

Vietnam has never lost a war to Thailand in it's history, Repulsing many Thai invasions and in the 80's, launching many incursions into Thailand killing lots of Thai troops and making the Thai's cry out to China and the U.S puttng pressure on Vietnam not to invade Thailand.

You say that Vietnam's vetrens in the Vietnam war are too old to fight, well it doesn't matter, no matter what generation, Vietnam always seems to defeat their enemies against all odds as shown with my history of Vietnamese military history above.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 6:46 PM


 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:47 PM 

>>Is Singpore's navy large enough to blockade the South China sea? Even if they could, Vietnam is not surrounded by water like other SEA countries. Food can come in by the route of China,Cambodia,Laos, and the governments of Cambodia and Laos are actually Vietnamese controlled and take orders from Hanoi.<<

Sent your message to the Embassy of Cambodia and Laos. Not forgeting to their media as well . I think u will like their responses.

Anyway, Singapore can anytime buy over their support. Dont worry. We will just promise them that we will inhilate the torn in their flesh.

>>If for some odd reason Singapore could blockade any route(which I really really doubt) then Vietnam can supply itself with food.

Vietnam isn't like Singapore. Vietnam is rich in natural resources with being the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world.<<

Not forgeting when i mean to deny any neccessity, we wont forget to bomb ur natural resources. At least those that are essential will not be forgiven. Try to develop more, we will bomb more.

>>As for air, Vietnam does have some modern aircraft and modern anti-air missiles, not to mention that Vietnam during the Vietnam War shot down over 1000 U.S aircraft and that was with troops with guns.<<

That unless u can spot our stealth bombers, your SAMs not jammed or fried by our jammers and your fighters not being destroyed within the first few days of war.

>>Can Singapore aircraft detect troops hiding in the mountains or forests shooting at their aircraft?<<

Thats my idea. I wanna sent your people into the mountains or forest.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:49 PM 

>>You say that Vietnam's vetrens in the Vietnam war are too old to fight, well it doesn't matter, no matter what generation, Vietnam always seems to defeat their enemies against all odds as shown with my history of Vietnamese military history above.<<

U are out of point again. Ur point is that vietnam can defeat an invading army. Singapore is not going to invade Vietnam u see, we are going to trash vietnam and let it rot by her own.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:51 PM 

lol I don't think Singapore can deny Vietnam any necessity.

Is Singpore's navy large enough to blockade the South China sea? Even if they could, Vietnam is not surrounded by water like other SEA countries. Food can come in by the route of China,Cambodia,Laos, and the governments of Cambodia and Laos are actually Vietnamese controlled and take orders from Hanoi.

If for some odd reason Singapore could blockade any route(which I really really doubt) then Vietnam can supply itself with food.

Vietnam isn't like Singapore. Vietnam is rich in natural resources with being the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world.

- Yes. Rich. So are many other nations in this world. So is Africa. Too bad there ain`t enough brains to do something sbout it

As for air, Vietnam does have some modern aircraft and modern anti-air missiles, not to mention that Vietnam during the Vietnam War shot down over 1000 U.S aircraft and that was with troops with guns.

- Absolutely pathetic if you coild call it an air-force.
- Vietnam war? Decades ago. If this is a hall-mark of a great people, I dont know what is. People should look at the present and future to see the depravity that surrounds them before boasting about a past that`s out of sync with the present.

Can Singapore aircraft detect troops hiding in the mountains or forests shooting at their aircraft?

- Can any air-craft? Running out of ideas? It just so confirms the point made that the total ineffectiveness of the 'armed forces' forces them to ride and hide in the jungles. Don`t talk about strategy. There is`nt one as this is the only viable one as the current state of the armed forces just does`nt allow it do squat.

I believe in the Iraq war, many helicoptors were shot down by Iraqi farmers.

- Right. A handful(I`ve only got 10 fingers) out of hundreds or perhaps a thousand coalition air-craft and that`s many. And neither were these reports validated by official claims.

In Vietnam it was much more worse, over 1000 of them were shot down.

- Yes. Yes. Back to the a war decades ago. I would`nt be surprise to see the same systems still deployed.




    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 13, 2004 11:54 PM
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 13, 2004 11:37 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:53 PM 

rofl you forgot underground networks. Vietnam has lots of underground network tunnels as well.

lol it sounds so good on paper about being able to jam Vietnam's stuff.

Hell the way your talking, it sounds as if Singapore can take over China as well with Jamming their Soviet military technology. I doubt it's as easy as you are trying to boast about.

As for "sending a message" to Cambodia and Laos. lol yeah like they will care.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:55 PM 

>>rofl you forgot underground networks. Vietnam has lots of underground network tunnels as well.<<

That is my idea. The whole population can go underground and start evolving into animals , i dun care. As long as vietnam want to be hostile, you shall not live in cities.

>>lol it sounds so good on paper about being able to jam Vietnam's stuff.

Hell the way your talking, it sounds as if Singapore can take over China as well with Jamming their Soviet military technology. I doubt it's as easy as you are trying to boast about.<<

The Israelis had shown the world how they jammed soviet stuff, Singapore dun have to perform for the world to see.

>>As for "sending a message" to Cambodia and Laos. lol yeah like they will care.<<

It doesnt matter even if they dun care.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 6:59 PM 

lol yeah took over Cambodia in just 15 days. Yeah Cambodians are easy to defeat but taking over in just 15 days is just like a new record, considering they were supplied and funded by China and the U.S.

Not to mention Vietnam was fighting China AT THE SAME time they were in Cambodia.

- Cambodia did`nt have a proper army to begin with. Try doing that with a modern army. The finding would`nt have made a big difference.

China launched the Sino-Vietnam war right after the invasion of Cambodia and we had to invade Cambodia and hold off against a world power at the same time.

- Hold off? They backed down of thier own volition. In a complete war of attrition, Vietnam would have been wiped out of the face of the planet. It`s as simple as that.

Most of Vietnam's troops were in Cambodia, and thus not one single army unit fought against China.

- Utter rubbish. You are talking absolutely nonsense.

It was fought by Vietnamese militia and local police.

250,000 PLA vs. 100,000 Vietnamese milita and local police.

- And the militia does`nt represent the armed forces defending Vietnam. Yes. It was the army that fought the United States and not the militia.

Lets see Singapore take over another country and defend itself from a world power at the same time.

- Oh..if taking over another country is a charm at showing how great countries are.

I would like to see Singapore's military history. How many wars have they won?

- While you are at it, go all the way back when Vietnam was still a chinese province. Not that it reflects the crap that is the current Vietnamese armed forces.

Vietnam defeated all 3 Mongol invasions, kicked out the Chinese army back in the old days killing 70,000 Chinese troops.

- And still became a a chinese province all the same..a couple of times..what was that..you never got conquered yourself. Right...Bring back the victorious dead.See of it helps

Vietnam has never lost a war to Thailand in it's history, Repulsing many Thai invasions and in the 80's, launching many incursions into Thailand killing lots of Thai troops and making the Thai's cry out to China and the U.S puttng pressure on Vietnam not to invade Thailand.

- Wow. They actually attacked Thailand during the 80s. You learn something new everyday.

You say that Vietnam's vetrens in the Vietnam war are too old to fight, well it doesn't matter, no matter what generation, Vietnam always seems to defeat their enemies against all odds as shown with my history of Vietnamese military history above.

- A matter of coincidence. They would lose period if the super-powers had persisted. That`s a fact.
- And the issue is about the current status of Vietnam`s armed forces, it`s nothing to shout about.


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:01 PM 

Vietnam isn't like Singapore. Vietnam is rich in natural resources with being the 2nd largest rice exporter in the world.

- Yes. Rich. So are many other nations in this world. So is Africa. Too bad there ain`t enough brains to do something sbout it

-Faz1

ROFL Vietnam's economy was actually comparable to Singapore's and higher than Korea's before the Vietnam War.

Lets see Singapore get bombed the hell out of it, and then put sanctions on that country for 30 years and lets see how well it can do. Hell with Singapore's export dependant company, that country would starve to death.

As for brains lets compare the International Math Olympiad contest.

http://imo.math.ca/results/03/rank.html

2003 Vietnam in 4th place, Singapore in 36th place.

2002 Vietnam in 5th place, Singapore in 30th place.

2001 Vietnam in 10th place, Singapore in 87th place.

1999 Vietnam in 2nd place, Singapore in 36th place.

lol not every country likes to kiss the U.S's ass to get trade you know.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:02 PM 

650 million a year budget.
Now. This is interesting. How on earth do they stretch so much for such a bloated force; very much the para-military out-fit it is though presumable some few front-line units are well trained.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:05 PM 

>>As for brains lets compare the International Math Olympiad contest.

http://imo.math.ca/results/03/rank.html

2003 Vietnam in 4th place, Singapore in 36th place.

2002 Vietnam in 5th place, Singapore in 30th place.

2001 Vietnam in 10th place, Singapore in 87th place.

1999 Vietnam in 2nd place, Singapore in 36th place.

lol not every country likes to kiss the U.S's ass to get trade you know.<<

Bulgaria is infront of the USA and China. Does that mean any thing economics, military or political?





-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:06 PM 

Brains? Isn`t that funny now. It seems completly out of sync with country it is today. Surely, the rest must have been sub-par.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:12 PM 

Like I said, Vietnam being poor is a result of sanctions for winning the Vietnam War. The U.S tend to be sore losers when they lose a war to your country.

Singapore is more dependant on the U.S than Vietnam ever was. If the U.S broke relations with Singapore, well that's the end of that country.

Singapore will never have to worry about being poor by the U.S, since they don't have the brains and the strategy to win a war with the U.S.

Vietnam used to be prosperous until the U.S came and ruined everything.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 7:14 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:13 PM 

GDP (2003): $39 billion.
Real growth rate (2003): 7.24%.
Per capita income (2003): $483.
Inflation rate (2003): 3%.
External debt (2002 est.): 38.3% of GDP, $13.1 billion

From the US State Dept.

Now. IF we could just make a side detour, someone apparently has decided to stop arguing about military when oh..that`s what this site is about...you`ll see that the GDP is actually 39 billion. and heavens still some 13.1 billion in external debt to be financed.(38.3% of GDP)..tsk..tsk..not too bad.. But. Per capita income is really bad - $483, you can`t do squat. No wonder the bulk of the military consists of ancient items. Do you still use swords and arrows Byron? The handful of extra-ordinary students could be put to good use.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:16 PM 

Like I said, Vietnam being poor is a result of sanctions for winning the Vietnam War. The U.S tend to be sore losers when they lose a war to your country.

- Bah. Sanctions. The entire system was top-heavy and would have collapsed if your leaders have`nt got the gumption to seek help from others in re-shaping Vietnam.

Singapore is more dependant on the U.S than Vietnam ever was. If the U.S broke relations with Singapore, well that's the end of that country.

- Oh really? If Vietnam`s trade partners are too disappear into nothing, she will still pay the price of it. Enough said, Vietnam`s military is..but..a shadow of its former self. And you are harping a different tune now.It shows.


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:17 PM 

rofl Vietnam wins in mathematics contests and wins a hell lot of more medals in the SEA games.

lol like I said, beating Vietnam in economy isn't hard when your country is allowed to trade with the rest of the world, while Vietnam is a rogue nation and isn't allowed to.



    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 13, 2004 7:22 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:22 PM 

rofl Vietnam wins in mathematics contests and wins a hell lot of more medals in the SEA games.
- Singapore is`nt too bad. http://www.sgbox.com/singaporeeducation21.html
I could find other links as well.


lol like I said, beating Vietnam in economy isn't hard when your country is allowed to trade with the rest of the world, while Vietnam is a rogue nation and isn't allowed to.

- Thats just more rubbish from you. Vietnam was still trading with other nations. Apparently, you`ve lost heart to carry on an argument about Viet
nam`s demented military. And hopelessly yrying to score points in other areas. You are totally without credibility.



 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:23 PM 

lol Vietnam has been in economic isolation for about 30 years and the U.S is starting to lift sanctions.

Vietnam's poverty rate is only 29% and not some huge ass number that you would expect from a country with economic isolation.

Compare that to the Phillipines with 40% poverty rate and a country that kisses the U.S ass, no major wars to devastate their countries though.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:23 PM 

>>lol like I said, beating Vietnam in economy isn't hard when your country is allowed to trade with the rest of the world, while Vietnam is a rogue nation and isn't allowed to.<<

Singapore can beat vietnam's economy easily and that is just too bad for u. Since Singapore have a better economy, we are in a better position to develop our army and thus have a better army compare to that of the Vietnam Armed Force.

Does the math compeitition means that Vietnam have more brains than Singapore? Maybe yes, maybe no. But that is just too bad that our education system produce a generally more educated students than Vietnam.


-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:27 PM 

''' CIA - Vietnam is a poor, densely-populated country that has had to recover from the ravages of war, the loss of financial support from the old Soviet Bloc, and the rigidities of a centrally planned economy. Substantial progress was achieved from 1986 to 1996 in moving forward from an extremely low starting point - growth averaged around 9% per year from 1993 to 1997. The 1997 Asian financial crisis highlighted the problems in the Vietnamese economy but, rather than prompting reform, reaffirmed the government's belief that shifting to a market-oriented economy would lead to disaster. GDP growth of 8.5% in 1997 fell to 6% in 1998 and 5% in 1999. Growth then rose to 6% to 7% in 2000-02 even against the background of global recession. These numbers mask some major difficulties in economic performance. Many domestic industries, including coal, cement, steel, and paper, have reported large stockpiles of inventory and tough competition from more efficient foreign producers. Meanwhile, Vietnamese authorities have moved to implement the structural reforms needed to modernize the economy and to produce more competitive, export-driven industries. The US-Vietnam Bilateral Trade Agreement entered into force near the end of 2001 and is expected to significantly increase Vietnam's exports to the US. The US is assisting Vietnam with implementing the legal and structural reforms called for in the agreement. '''


There is no sanctions on Vietnam. It is the weakness of the Central-planned economy and the ravage of war that pull vietnam to her current standing.



-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:28 PM 

lol Vietnam has been in economic isolation for about 30 years and the U.S is starting to lift sanctions.

- I was`n talking about the US only. It really feels like you are taking to an infant.


Vietnam's poverty rate is only 29% and not some huge ass number that you would expect from a country with economic isolation.

- That`s just too bad for them. But against the other developed nations in SEA. She`s utterly pathetic and still is relatibely speaking.

Compare that to the Phillipines with 40% poverty rate and a country that kisses the U.S ass, no major wars to devastate their countries though.

- No major wars? There is one going on right now in the south not to mention the internal problems she faced then.



 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:30 PM 

>>The US-Vietnam Bilateral Trade Agreement entered into force near the end of 2001 and is expected to significantly increase Vietnam's exports to the US. The US is assisting Vietnam with implementing the legal and structural reforms called for in the agreement. '''>>

- Funny. They had to go back to thier tormentors for aid. Why not resist the temptation? Surely, they can do one better.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:30 PM 

Ok for the last time, I said Singapore's military is better in terms of technology which is mostly U.S created and cannot invade Vietnam. I never said Vietnam could take over Singapore now did I?

A bunch of terrorist the Phillipines have to deal with isn't what I would call a major war. Until these terrorist bomb the hell out of the Phillipines with more bombs than all the bombs used in World War 2 like the Vietnam war, then I wouldn't compare that with the Vietnam War.

Economy really doesn't measure brain power. Look at China and India. They are still both considered 3rd world countries, but their people are smart. It's just that India was exploited like crazy and was ruined, while China got sanctions as well for being communist during the cold war.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 7:33 PM


 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:35 PM 

>>Ok for the last time, I said Singapore's military is better in terms of technology which is mostly U.S created and cannot invade Vietnam. I never said Vietnam could take over Singapore now did I?<<

Stop changing the pole, u seem to forget some points we debated over.

1) Singapore have better trained pilots.
2) Vietnam have a weaker airforce.
3) Singapore can to a certain extent deprieve Vietnam from her neccesities.
4) Overall Vietnam have a weaker armed force.



    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 13, 2004 7:36 PM


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:36 PM 

- Funny. They had to go back to thier tormentors for aid. Why not resist the temptation? Surely, they can do one better.

-Faz1

lol Vietnam did not go to the U.S. Bill Clinton did not want to sign the bilaterial trade agreement, but many U.S companies saw Vietnam as a great opportunity and put pressure on him to do it. So blame U.S companies for wanting to get rich of Vietnam.

Funny how when the bilaterial trade agreement is signed Vietnam's economy rises a lot while other countries that depend on the U.S go down because of 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Many U.S analyst as I posted above believe Vietnam will overtake Thailand, Indonesia by 2020, like I said how fitting that before Vietnam War, Vietnam was prosporous and now that the U.S lets Vietam trade again, it is on track to regain it's former prosperity.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:37 PM 

Ok for the last time, I said Singapore's military is better in terms of technology which is mostly U.S created and cannot invade Vietnam.

- Wrong again Byron. The bulk of our weapons are home-made. We only purchase those off-the-shelf when it ain`t cost-effective enough to build them ourselves.

I never said Vietnam could take over Singapore now did I?

- Neither is this thread about that. And niether could the latter in reality as well.

- It is about the the top armed forces in SEA and Vietnam is no where at the top no longer. It`s just churlish to say otherwise.



 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:40 PM 

Stop changing the pole, u seem to forget some points we debated over.

1) Singapore have better trained pilots.
2) Vietnam have a weaker armed force.
3) Singapore can to a certain extent deprieve Vietnam from her neccesities.
4) Overall Vietnam have a weaker armed force.

-FalconOne.

1) How can you tell who is "better trained". Vietnamese pilots are trained in Russia. Unless you see Vietnamese pilots going up against Singaporean pilots then you don't know for sure who is better trained.

2) Weaker in terms of technology, but not in term of numbers.

3) Debatable. If advance F-16's can deprieve a much larger country like Vietnam as it sounds on paper, then I guess China which uses Russian technology and not advance U.S technology can also be deprived by Singapore as well

4) Debatable. Lack of information on what Vietnam really has. Many factors like strategy, and the fact that Vietnam's numbers are a hell of a lot and Vietnam has enough weapons to arm each of those troops.

We can keep on debating on point 4 like crazy and no one will be able to "prove" to each other who would win against who. Which is why I said at the very beginning that they can't invade each other.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:42 PM 

- Funny. They had to go back to thier tormentors for aid. Why not resist the temptation? Surely, they can do one better.

-Faz1

lol Vietnam did not go to the U.S. Bill Clinton did not want to sign the bilaterial trade agreement, but many U.S companies saw Vietnam as a great opportunity and put pressure on him to do it. So blame U.S companies for wanting to get rich of Vietnam.

- No blame yourselves for seeing this as an opportunity to grab some US money before they fly in doves to China. Besides, it is politcally expedient to change the system from within. They could watch the country crumble.

Funny how when the bilaterial trade agreement is signed Vietnam's economy rises a lot while other countries that depend on the U.S go down because of 9/11 terrorist attacks.

- Rises a lot relative to prior low growth base.

Many U.S analyst as I posted above believe Vietnam will overtake Thailand, Indonesia by 2020, like I said how fitting that before Vietnam War, Vietnam was prosporous and now that the U.S lets Vietam trade again, it is on track to regain it's former prosperity.

- And till then, Vietnam will be one of the sick men of SEA. I would give credit to its history but at this juncture, it`s just sub-par performance from Vietnam.


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:42 PM 

Wrong again Byron. The bulk of our weapons are home-made. We only purchase those off-the-shelf when it ain`t cost-effective enough to build them ourselves.

-Faz1

Yeah I'm sure the F-16 and most of the planes that Singapore has are made in Singapore and just happen to have the same names as combat aircraft in the U.S as well.

 
 

(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:44 PM 

>>Yeah I'm sure the F-16 and most of the planes that Singapore has are made in Singapore and just happen to have the same names as combat aircraft in the U.S as well.<<

Look at the number of tanks and ships we build in Singapore compare it to the aircraft we bought, the equipments we bought will pale in comparisome.

-----------------------------------------------


''The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls .....must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.''

> BG Lee , 1984.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:51 PM 

1) How can you tell who is "better trained". Vietnamese pilots are trained in Russia. Unless you see Vietnamese pilots going up against Singaporean pilots then you don't know for sure who is better trained.

- Wow. They are trained in Russia. On thier Mig 21s,etc Im sure. And what Singapore pilots are`nt trained by the Americans to use the F-16s,etc to fly erm. This really ought to take the cake. At any rate, Singapore has a permanent training detachment in the States for that purpose. I don`t suppose Vietnam operates a similar facility. I do wonder if spare parts are still available for some of Vietnam`s flying tubs though.

2) Weaker in terms of technology, but not in term of numbers.

- Right. Tell that to Saddam. You and the rest of your ilk will make excellent counsellors.

3) Debatable. If advance F-16's can deprieve a much larger country like Vietnam as it sounds on paper, then I guess China which uses Russian technology and not advance U.S technology can also be deprived by Singapore as well

- We were`nt talking about China now were we?

4) Debatable. Lack of information on what Vietnam really has. Many factors like strategy, and the fact that Vietnam's numbers are a hell of a lot and Vietnam has enough weapons to arm each of those troops.

- Yes. A total and abyssmal lack of modern weapons. So much so that searching for them has become a chore. Very surprising since you were playing a different tune at the beginning.

We can keep on debating on point 4 like crazy and no one will be able to "prove" to each other who would win against who. Which is why I said at the very beginning that they can't invade each other.

- This has been rehashed so many times. It`s not about invading one another. Read the thread`s title. It`s about which country is tops. And it surely aint Vietnam. All the facts above point so.


    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 13, 2004 11:44 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login gary1910)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:51 PM 

Why dun bother abt that boy who thought that past glory is any significant today.LOL

Yes, Vietnam was the largest army and airforce in SEA in the 80s but even at that time , the Russian only provided old 2nd hand weapons of the 60s to them, which are by now obsoleted and are qualified as museum pieces! LOL

His link prove it!

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/EI05Ag02.html

It also stated the small number of high tech weapons was bought from the Russian but certainly unable to replace all the museum pieces!!!

They also do not have any military industries to support their armed forces unlike SG , where could produced IFV, SPH, rifles,AGL, mortars, arty, LSV, UAV, UCGV,UCAV,USV,UUV,AEW,upgrade of a/c,patrol boats,LSD,ECM,missiles, ammo etc

As the matter of fact , we could easily produced enough high tech weapon to armed another army!!!!!!

So does what Veitnam produced??? Bullets only. LOL

Veitnam due to their poor economy at the moment, could only afford abt USD1 Bil per year, with such a large army, she could sustain it but still far alway from any great upgrading.

For the next 10 years , Vietnam could only slowly improve on their infastucture so to sustain growth for their economy due to many years of war and neglect. Therefore there will be insufficient money for any major upgrading of their armed forces.

Only after at least 20 years from now, Vietnam will then be at least some form of decent armed forces.

Therefore, Byron5, wait at least 20 years from now then you restart the debate, becos at the moment, Vietnam armed forces should be in the musuem. LOL

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 7:54 PM 

Yeah I'm sure the F-16 and most of the planes that Singapore has are made in Singapore and just happen to have the same names as combat aircraft in the U.S as well.

- Shooting mindlessly from your hip again Byron. I`ve already said that we buy what we can`t make from `off the shelf.' That would include the F-16s in case you don`t know that already. A pity Vietnam does`nt make as much as we do.

 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:02 PM 

Well the bulk of China's military is Russian made. Yes they have one plane that they made most of their equipment is foreign made.

So does that make Singapore better than China in terms of military?

Countries choose whether they want to create their own or buy their own.

Starting companies is a costly business and you have to measure if buying foreign ones are more cost effective.

I was saying that Singapore's "advance" weapons and airplanes are U.S made.

I'm sure the ones that Singapore made, have U.S help as well or are U.S influenced.

As for Vietnam's military antiquities, ask India and Russia on their plans to renovate Vietnam's equipment.


    
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 8:04 PM
This message has been edited by Byron5 on Jun 13, 2004 8:04 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login Falconone)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:03 PM 

>>Do you want me to lock it before it flames up more?<<

U are the boss. Up to u.

Anyway, FAZ1 do u mind checking up on him to see is he the classical guy who seasonally try to sow a discord.

Thanks.


    
This message has been edited by Falconone on Jun 13, 2004 8:04 PM


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:06 PM 

Well the bulk of China's military is Russian made. Yes they have one plane that they made most of their equipment is foreign made.

So does that make Singapore better than China in terms of military?

- Wrong. China makes many indigneous weapons

Countries choose whether they want to create their own or buy their own.

- And my point is that Singapore makes many because it can and Vietnam simply can`t.

Starting companies is a costly business and you have to measure if buying foreign ones are more cost effective.

- That`s nice. Bring that knowledge to Vietnam. Im sure it would be useful.

I was saying that Singapore's "advance" weapons and airplanes are U.S made.

- Wrong. We do make many advance weapons ourselves. Go and see.

I'm sure the ones that Singapore made, have U.S help as well or are U.S influenced.

- Not all. Some are wholly ours.


 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:09 PM 

As for Vietnam's military antiquities, ask India and Russia on their plans to renovate Vietnam's equipment.

- Wow. With less than 600+ million per year, Im sure they will be impressive.


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:10 PM 

How many countries in the world actually make their own weapons?

Only a few do.

MOST of China's weapons are Russian made. Yes there are a few weapons that Chinese made, but most of them are Russian made.

To me, only the U.S and Russia are the only competitors in selling weapons around the world. I really doubt any other country can make better weapons then they do. So why bother to create your own company when you can buy superior weapons from them and probably at a more cheaper price as well.

Which is why most countries buy their weapons instead of starting their own.

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:15 PM 

How many countries in the world actually make their own weapons?

Only a few do.

- Well..if you want to lump together the entire world(including Africa), it`s a yes. But countries aspire to make thier own goods where it benefits them.

MOST of China's weapons are Russian made. Yes there are a few weapons that Chinese made, but most of them are Russian made.

- Most? Are you sure. Check again.

To me, only the U.S and Russia are the only competitors in selling weapons around the world. I really doubt any other country can make better weapons then they do. So why bother to create your own company when you can buy superior weapons from them and probably at a more cheaper price as well.

- Wrong again. Take for example the 120 mm gun on the US Abrams tank. Go and see which country make erm

Which is why most countries buy their weapons instead of starting their own.

- Because they simple can`t make them. If they could and it saves costs, they would. It`s not as easy as putting together A to B.


 
 

(Login Byron5)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:15 PM 

Here we go with the 600 million a year thing. Like I said that is a guess, by analyst. Other analysts give out different numbers. No one knows for sure what it is.

And India has actually been giving Vietnam equipment and I don't know if Vietnam is paying them or if they are doing it for free due to India's plans to make Vietnam part of thier coalition against China.

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CA11Df04.html

 
 

(Premier Login Faz1)
Forum Owner

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

June 13 2004, 8:22 PM 

Here we go with the 600 million a year thing. Like I said that is a guess, by analyst. Other analysts give out different numbers. No one knows for sure what it is.

And India has actually been giving Vietnam equipment and I don't know if Vietnam is paying them or if they are doing it for free due to India's plans to make Vietnam part of thier coalition against China.

------------------------------------------------

- Practically all analysts put it at around those figures; i have`nt seen one in the likes of billions of US dollars. Don`t hide behind the curtain and say no one knows for sure..yada..yada..Vietnam`s current equipment shows why.

- And what about that article you`ve provided. Even if there is cooperation, Vietnam would`nt be able to afford the systems that it really needs anyway at is current budget. Oh yes..India is putting a coalition against China and doing it for free possibly..You must be from a different world. Go get some sleep Byron. Meanwhile, this thread will be locked temporarily and will be re-opened when everyone has cooled off.




    
This message has been edited by Faz1 on Jun 14, 2004 7:22 AM


 
 

(Login pyrocryo)

best SEA forces

March 9 2005, 8:05 AM 

Wow, look at those artillery firing
back to topic.

On the ground I think it is a toss up between vietnam and indonesia. People forget that one ingredient in the soup: history and tradition. Historically, both people are known for their tenacity (or as one general say, "we have beat them but they simply don't know they have been beaten). Yesss, singapore has the best toys, but even a US marines drill sergeant will say that it is the men that will decide it. The limited land mass of singapore are also a problem. Remember that WW2 are won by the bad guys (and the lost by the REALLY bad guys) is because US factories cannot be reached by their enemies. Other countries has this 'strategic depth'.
After them, Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore. After that the Phillipines and Myanmar. Cambodia and Laos rounds it up.

Now on the Air and the Sea, where material matters, Singapore would win by default. They have the best arsenal SEA money can buy. If you want to defeat them, I suggest invest in ballistic missiles to take out their bases and munitions depot. Next will be Vietnam. Despite lack of material, they frequently challenges China and sometime won. Third-tier will be Malaysia, but because they have relatively more modern equipment. Thailand and Indonesia are next, although despite my origin, I should push Thailand a bit up. Although the pilots and seamen are equal in skill, Thais are basically has more experience in using modern gadgets. Indonesian are still stuck using second-hands and too-long-in-the-tooth refurbished ships. Philipines, Cambodia, and Laos concludes it.

As of how to defeat Singapore cheaply: ask malaysian to cut off their water.
That's Singapore achilles heel.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 12:13 AM 

I think it would be extremely difficult for any of the present day nations in SE Asia to conquer its neighbour. Even if one country defeated another on a conventional battlefield, the amount of resources needed to defeat a nationalism based insurgency would probably be beyond its means. With this in mind, my assessment is based purely on the ability of the country to defend itself. Based on its history, the best armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. This is a country which has successfully beaten a superpower (the US) and a major European power (France). It suffered at least 1.1 million killed (approx 12-13% of its ENTIRE population)in 21 years of war, and STILL had the will to fight on. No other country in SE Asia has come close to emulating this. The capacity of the Vietnamese to suffer appalling casualties, its vast military experience, its almost superhuman endurance is unrivalled. It is almost unthinkable that any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 12:15 AM 

I think it would be extremely difficult for any of the present day nations in SE Asia to conquer its neighbour. Even if one country defeated another on a conventional battlefield, the amount of resources needed to defeat a nationalism based insurgency would probably be beyond its means. With this in mind, my assessment is based purely on the ability of the country to defend itself. Based on its history, the best armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. This is a country which has successfully beaten a superpower (the US) and a major European power (France). It suffered at least 1.1 million killed (approx 12-13% of its ENTIRE population)in 21 years of war, and STILL had the will to fight on. No other country in SE Asia has come close to emulating this. The capacity of the Vietnamese to suffer appalling casualties, its vast military experience, its almost superhuman endurance is unrivalled. It is almost unthinkable that any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 1:06 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war) and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 1:13 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 1:14 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 2:08 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 2:17 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 7:01 PM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 

(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 9 2005, 7:38 PM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 10 2005, 2:16 AM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login Gcap)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 10 2005, 2:27 AM 

Omg this topic is long!,N1 n1!

____________________________________________
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Colombian Soldiers at stance.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login ben_analyst)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 10 2005, 8:05 AM 

Somebody should lock "Johngage", he's... spamming?

 
 
johngage
(Login johngage)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Vietnam (No. 1)

May 10 2005, 3:08 PM 

I don't think any nation in present day SE Asia could conquer its neighbour without great difficulty. Even assuming they won in a conventional war, in all likelihood they would still be faced with a national insurgency. To defeat this would probably require resources beyond the means of any country in this region. With this in mind, my criteria is based on the ability of the country to defend itself. Judging from this, the most powerful armed force in SE Asia must surely be Vietnam. It is the only country which has successfully defeated a superpower (the US) and a major European power(France).

Historically, they have shown that they are able to suffer appalling losses (est. at least 1.1 million killed, or 12-13% of its entire population in 21 years of war)and still carry on fighting. The country has been able to produce great military commanders such as Vo Nguyen Giap and has vast military experience. They have also demonstrated that they are able to defeat armies in set-piece battles (such as Dien Bien Phu). With their incredible nationalism and superhuman endurance, I doubt whether any country in the world could successfully conquer Vietnam.

 
 
Hassan AlBasri
(Login petir)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 18 2005, 8:51 AM 

I agree with johngage. Singaporeans are too engrossed with their new high tech equipment. Wars are won not only with equipment but others means also. However, it would easy for Singapore to engage and win initially but it will not sustain.

People from small island has got this siege mentally. Ohh!! I forget. A proxy of a super power can always boast. Any problem Uncle Sam will help. Remember Israel in the 1973 Yom Kippur War??

 
 
Anonymous
(Login purplayaman)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 18 2005, 9:55 AM 

Actually, i don't consider Israel American proxy. As fas as i can tell, its prolly the other way around.

 
 

keke
(Login BIG_BANANA)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 18 2005, 10:01 AM 

looking for a flame war?

Quote:
I agree with johngage. Singaporeans are too engrossed with their new high tech equipment. Wars are won not only with equipment but others means also. However, it would easy for Singapore to engage and win initially but it will not sustain.


yup... war in your opinion are won by how many push ups your soldiers can do per minute and magical weapon like the malay kris and their all conquering sampang rowboat...

i am also very sure that malaysia can pay for their war longer then singapore can, using their palm oil as payments for weapons and additional war supplies... assuming that there are dumb armseller out there

by the way... after singapore has won the war... do you think given singaporeans KS mentality, will we give our enemy a second chance to rise against us again?

Quote:
People from small island has got this siege mentally. Ohh!! I forget. A proxy of a super power can always boast. Any problem Uncle Sam will help. Remember Israel in the 1973 Yom Kippur War??



siege mentality? OOOoooo...... you shouldnt be jeolous about singapore's military power.. didnt your mom tell you dont be envious?

and seriously... dont be fearful of singapore's SAF... FEAR is the path to the DARK SIDE..

MAY the FORCE be WITH YOU... YOUNG MORON....

oh.. the US did help the isrealis in the 1973 Y K war... they conducted one of the largest logistical airlift since WW2 to help isreal fight and WIN the war.... in fact... by the end of the Y K war... the isrealis are reportedly less then 20 miles from DAMASCUS.. the capital of syria.

 
 

(Login petir)
Gagah Setia (Malaysia)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 19 2005, 3:22 AM 

Those who have seige mentality and inferiority complex will become annoyed with my simple comment.

By the way you can attack any neighbour you want even with simple excuse and gain ground....ooops that if you are lucky. But, it will not be easy. But again if that happens,it will surely spill back to your tiny island. It is just going to be like Iraq and Afghanistan. We, your North and South neighbours are not used to luxuries and wealth like you do. We do not mind living the war zone like conditions and fight forever. You know what I mean. Our faith is sacrifice and we are being indocrinated five times a day to sacrifice.

What I am trying to say is do not under rate others too much. People do not respond is not because they are afraid but because they ignore small fries.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login ben_analyst)
The Singa-Lauts (Singapore)

Re: Top 5 Armed Forces in Southeast Asia

May 19 2005, 6:02 AM 

"We, your North and South neighbours are not used to luxuries and wealth like you do. We do not mind living the war zone like conditions and fight forever. You know what I mean. Our faith is sacrifice and we are being indocrinated five times a day to sacrifice."



You sound like you've been to Afganistan for training.