I've asked you this - very relevant - question several times before, but so far to no avail. Because you've done everything in your power to ignore it, hoping it will go away. To bypass that problem, I've created this separate thread to draw everyones attention (including the attention of others).
Why have you left your countries to come live in the West? In other words, why are you betraying the system you all claim to support so much?
Now I am very interested in an answer. Because as far as I can see you are not merely cowards, but hypocrites as well.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
FlowerOfRahbar, thou art a dankish pox-marked lout!
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
KOSak you are being pathetic westernise atheist refugee. Look how you saying how much western culture is being superior to you own culture and back grounds. Just because you living in west do not mean you having to give up your value and culture and religion. You only being impress with material thing like money economey and having freedome to living with out any moral and running getting drunk having to much sex like whore and dressing in newest gay metrosexual fashions and clothe. This is being the problem with you refugees you think this things makes you better and more superior to peoples which do not like material thing and likes to live pious and humble and spiritual lifes. You are being to much brain wash to understand. Even you and youre refugee friends like Anash have sayed you will rather for Israel and USA to bomb and conquer you country and live in western style then having moral and having pride in you own culture. Even you are cursing your own country mans liek typical traitor refugee.
KOSak you are being pathetic westernise atheist refugee. Look how you saying how much western culture is being superior to you own culture and back grounds.
The Westerners are probably 200 years ahead of your own barbaric ways at home. You're given the luxury of practicing any religion you want, marrying whoever you want, acquiring an education in whatever you want, i can go on all day. It's a free country. The fact he's an atheist doesn't change anything, it only shows how much of an idiot/threatened you are by his difference in ideology.
Just because you living in west do not mean you having to give up your value and culture and religion. You only being impress with material thing like money economey and having freedome to living with out any moral and running getting drunk having to much sex like whore and dressing in newest gay metrosexual fashions and clothe. This is being the problem with you refugees you think this things makes you better and more superior to peoples which do not like material thing and likes to live pious and humble and spiritual lifes. You are being to much brain wash to understand.
The titties and occasional jungle culture is only the superficial side of matters (In fact i like titties a lot). Just because the women aren't put on a leash and are free doesn't mean things are rotting. Why is that such a problem for you? Back at home it may look nice on the outside with everone all humble, but worse things happen behind closed doors.
Nobody said you had to give up you culture or religion. He's asking why you come here and then bite the hand that feeds you. People like you are simply parasites. All they talk about is how things are so much better at home, but you won't go back because life is too green here. As long as you're able to fatten your wallet with the Greenbacks - you decide to stay here. Who's the greedy capitalist one now?
Even you and youre refugee friends like Anash have sayed you will rather for Israel and USA to bomb and conquer you country and live in western style then having moral and having pride in you own culture. Even you are cursing your own country mans liek typical traitor refugee.
I doubt Koz would ever say that So now you have to lie to get your point across?
Science is not separate from Islam. Science is separate from Christianity, that is the main reason it was removed from state positions (secularity). Until this day it is holding people back in science. Islam not only emphasizes the importance of science, but obligates it on the person.
The people with the greatest scientific achievements from the world's history were strict religious people. To name one who one of you even quote in your signature, Albert Einstein was a fundamentalist religious person. He famously even said that science without religion crippled. His best friend even said you'd go crazy from how much he talks about God. He said, he talks so much about God and religion that you'd think he is a cleric.
This is only one example, from practically all the great names were also religious and this is the west. From our own history there are even more examples.
Science means knowledge. I have heard the stupid rhetoric of Christianity falling and Western world growing while Islam falling and science dwindling in the East. But this doesn't explain the 350 year science lag of Islamic states, since if anything, little has changed.
You also are incapable of breaking men of knowledge and men of God. Men of knowledge can be religious, but they are secularist, they do not mix their science with their faith (you seem to forget who the father of the Scientific Method was). You and others fail to see this because you blind yourself to reason beyond black and white.
Also, stop making up crap...
In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
Einstein also stated: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth."
The irony of the last statement is that religious people are religious because of indoctrination at birth.
Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."
"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
The regime in Iran deserves a complete political isolation,I suggest doing the same here.Ignore whatever these guys post here completely.Do not engage in any kind of discussion with them.
Instead repeat this question everytime they post something.Repeat it for as long as they refuse to answer it.
They have a right not to answer it,we have a right to ask it!
u know what suggestion I have? as a fellow member and nothing more, just
as a member who does see the BS in these members hypocrisy, Im gonna from
now on just post a link to this thread as a respond, everytime any of these
hypocrits post in any thread.
Anyone feel the same I do about them, do the same...
guys keep in mind that Flanker is most likely Parham and he thrives on any kind of attention, Saifuden is probably not even pakistani and has the same kind of craving for any kind of attention. FollowerOfrahbar truly believes in what he writes here, so he is at least sincere in that respect and when you are at that stage as an adult you will never change or believe in anything else it is too late.
I guess what I am trying to say is, dont expect them to get it.
Saifudeen, thank you for ignoring the question again, but Bun has explained my position better than I ever could have. I would also like to add that culture and background mean zilch. What counts are your achievements as a person and culture is only as good as it is good for the people.
By the way, unlike you, I'm not a refugee.
@ Surena and Niroo, that's a good idea.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
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This message has been edited by Koz4k on Jul 6, 2009 9:45 AM
"Science means knowledge. I have heard the stupid rhetoric of Christianity falling and Western world growing while Islam falling and science dwindling in the East. But this doesn't explain the 350 year science lag of Islamic states, since if anything, little has changed. "
You have not heard it from me. Christianity was a barrier, and still is, to science, that is why it lost its place in governance. To give you a modern day example, today the Christian people and politicians in the west are the only ones (attempting to) stopping advances in stem cell research, while Iran is one of the top researchers into stem cell technology. To name some older extreme examples: executing/imprisoning/banishing people for making certain scientific discoveries or announcements (e.g. geocentric/heliocentric universe). The very idea for banning any such theorizing never even came up in the Islamic world.
This is because of the emphasis/importance Islam puts on science, (e.g. prophet mohammad (s) said that science is better than worship (just to add something: this doesn't mean you abandon your worship).)
One third of all countries in the world is officially 'Islamic' or has Islam as their main religion. While many of these countries might not be that developed, I would not say there is a 350 year lag, most of the applied science that is currently in use is not older than 60 years, for theoretical science I would say between 80 to a 100 years.
There is really only one country in the Islamic world we can compare with the western 'christian' world, and that would be Iran because of its indigenous push toward scientific development and self sufficiency in all fields. Iran is quite developed and advanced in many fields of theoretical and applied sciences and it is only a matter of time (years, not decades) that it will start competing in most fields with the west. It is already competing at a very high level in many fields.
As for why there is such a lag, there are really a lot of reasons and the main reasons differ from country to country. However, it can generally be said that the 'Islamic world' in its path and moments at lead in the world in terms of science (and everything else actually) believed in sharing knowledge. It shared all if its knowledge with western travelers/immigrants and they brought all this wealth of knowledge back to their homelands. Many of it was even rewritten with their own name as author. However, as the 'western world' started to get closer, it also started to close off. Ideas of dominance over others through knowledge and spreading Christianity or abusing other countries through technological prowess in extreme forms really is an idea that was mostly applied by the west.
The capitalist tendencies of these western people is what made them force other countries to become consumers and producers, rather than thinkers and creators. It is mas indoctrination and enslavement of other people that got them to where they are now.
However, as Pr. Ahmadinejad puts beautifully, this is the age of reason and logic, bullying will not work anymore.
"You also are incapable of breaking men of knowledge and men of God. Men of knowledge can be religious, but they are secularist, they do not mix their science with their faith (you seem to forget who the father of the Scientific Method was). You and others fail to see this because you blind yourself to reason beyond black and white."
Maybe you can explain what a mixture of "science with their faith" looks like. Making a rocket that also says the call to prayers?
There really is a lack of men who meant anything to science in western history, this is the reason men like Galileo and davinchi are advertised so much. though they were both catholic.
"Also, stop making up crap...
In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
Einstein also stated: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth."
The irony of the last statement is that religious people are religious because of indoctrination at birth."
The question is if he really said these things. Have you read his bibliography? He did say he doesn't consider himself a jew at all, he didn't accept the jewish faith. However everyone that actually knew him in real life, like his best friend, describe him of something that I call fanatic of religion. The way he is described is as a guy who talks abut religion and God everyday. That's why his friend said that if you ever talk to him, and don't know his real profession, you'd think he is a cleric.
Thank you for posting more outlandish lies and complete rubbish, but before we go into that, we must ask you to answer this question:
Why have you left your beloved Islamic Republic to come live in the West? In other words, why are you betraying the system you claim to support so much?
Until you have answered the above question, you are nothing more than a mere coward and hypocrite who lacks every shred of credibility.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
FN, why so much conviction and laughter? You talk about my religion as if you know it. Yet your words show a lack of knowledge about Islam.
The Taliban are as much of a good example of Islam as Ahmadis, Bahais and other such strange sects are.
The ideology of this specific group is such that it even promotes the return to the physical state of development and living during the time of the prophet (s).
Why have you left your beloved Islamic Republic to come live in the West? In other words, why are you betraying the system you claim to support so much?
Until you have answered the above question, you are nothing more than a mere coward and hypocrite who lacks every shred of credibility.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
Niroo, I'm beginning to think that Flower really doesn't understand what is happening. I think he's honestly ignorant, because no person with even a shred of honor or decency would lie like this.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
2145 GMT: The death toll in Tehran may be far higher than official figures suggest. Fintan Dunne has posted this English rewrite of an article in Le Figaro:
One of a pair of Iranian doctors, who fled the capital to France says an unofficial tally by medical staff at Tehran area hospitals counted 92 violent deaths related to conflicts with security forces. The death toll is considerably at variance with an official figure of 17 deaths.
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
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This message has been edited by Koz4k on Jul 7, 2009 6:46 PM
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
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#Neda
------------------------------
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
You have not heard it from me. Christianity was a barrier, and still is, to science, that is why it lost its place in governance. To give you a modern day example, today the Christian people and politicians in the west are the only ones (attempting to) stopping advances in stem cell research, while Iran is one of the top researchers into stem cell technology. To name some older extreme examples: executing/imprisoning/banishing people for making certain scientific discoveries or announcements (e.g. geocentric/heliocentric universe). The very idea for banning any such theorizing never even came up in the Islamic world.
Politics had as much reason to the barrier of science in Europe as did Christianity. Politically, increasing knowledge would make the Papacy lose control over the continent, this was seen as dangerous. Also, ignorant people even without religion will stifle knowledge.
Here is an example of fanatic Muslims stifling science... The Almohads.
The very idea for banning any such theorizing never even came up in the Islamic world
My example... Evolution of man.
This is because of the emphasis/importance Islam puts on science, (e.g. prophet mohammad (s) said that science is better than worship (just to add something: this doesn't mean you abandon your worship).)
He also had little concept of Human equality, but someone saying to seek knowledge is nothing ground breaking.
One third of all countries in the world is officially 'Islamic' or has Islam as their main religion. While many of these countries might not be that developed, I would not say there is a 350 year lag, most of the applied science that is currently in use is not older than 60 years, for theoretical science I would say between 80 to a 100 years.
When I made the 350 year time lag, I meant that the Islamic world hasn't given anything for such a period of any great significance. I will also argue that Islamic piety hasn't dropped either but actually increased in the last century. The headscarf was nearly completely unheard of in Egypt and many Arab countries till the turn of the 20th century.
Iran is quite developed and advanced in many fields of theoretical and applied sciences and it is only a matter of time (years, not decades) that it will start competing in most fields with the west.
You base this on what? The number of patents, unique scientific papers, inventions, innovations, number of scientists per capita, number of Universities per capita? You will find Iran is lagging behind heavily while its neighbour Turkey leads the field of science in the 'Muslim world'.
As for why there is such a lag, there are really a lot of reasons and the main reasons differ from country to country. However, it can generally be said that the 'Islamic world' in its path and moments at lead in the world in terms of science (and everything else actually) believed in sharing knowledge. It shared all if its knowledge with western travelers/immigrants and they brought all this wealth of knowledge back to their homelands. Many of it was even rewritten with their own name as author. However, as the 'western world' started to get closer, it also started to close off. Ideas of dominance over others through knowledge and spreading Christianity or abusing other countries through technological prowess in extreme forms really is an idea that was mostly applied by the west.
Load of bollocks. The only real place of knowledge transfer came from Al Andalus which in itself was unique in the Muslim world. You will find most Europeans did not steal knowledge and clearly labelled the original authorship, however under a Latinised name. You will also find that the Islamic world simply shut down in scientific generation around the 1400-1500's when the rise of the Ottoman and Mughal Empires was well on it's way.
Maybe instead of blaming the West, you blame the inefficient Imperial system.
The capitalist tendencies of these western people is what made them force other countries to become consumers and producers, rather than thinkers and creators. It is mas indoctrination and enslavement of other people that got them to where they are now.
Does not explain the lack of thinkers in the Ottoman and Mughal Empires, free from Western dominance till the 17th-18th century.
Maybe you can explain what a mixture of "science with their faith" looks like. Making a rocket that also says the call to prayers?
Science means knowledge. When you mix knowledge with religion, it will not work. I expalined Science means knowledge already.
There really is a lack of men who meant anything to science in western history, this is the reason men like Galileo and davinchi are advertised so much. though they were both catholic.
Scientists are a modern terms for many fields of work. You are retrospectively looking at history. Most Muslim 'scientists' were not scientists either, not in the strict modern term.
Otherwise, using ancient Roman and Greek sources would prove you wrong, completely.
The question is if he really said these things. Have you read his bibliography? He did say he doesn't consider himself a jew at all, he didn't accept the jewish faith. However everyone that actually knew him in real life, like his best friend, describe him of something that I call fanatic of religion. The way he is described is as a guy who talks abut religion and God everyday. That's why his friend said that if you ever talk to him, and don't know his real profession, you'd think he is a cleric.
Many are from reputable sources, one of which is his biography. Either way, he did not let dogma of a religion dominate his life, rather he was spiritual.
Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."
"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Does not explain the lack of thinkers in the Ottoman and Mughal Empires, free from Western dominance till the 17th-18th century.
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To be fair, about a quarter of Ottoman archives have been translated to any language. And they are usually the latest period. Turkey lacks the funds and the West funds only certain projects. We know nearly nothing about the Ottoman Empire, other then what 3 Western and a couple Turkish historians have written about it.
Well we know by the 17th century the Ottomans were so backwards militarily and socially they were being beaten back by much smaller European nations while also erupting in revolts.
We can also assume by the fact little to no intellectual knowledge from the Ottomans filtered to the West as an indicator to a lag or lack of innovation. You can attack the West for a lot of things of manipulation, but one thing was respect those who gave knowledge (a very common trait from all scientific minds all over the world), sources being clearly given, Albeit in a Latanised form.
I'm sure the Ottomans were interesting, but they were not known to be intellectuals.
Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."
"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
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#Neda
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts
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Current Topic - @ Saifudeen, Flanker and FlowerOfRahbar
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So now you have to lie to get your point across?![[linked image]](http://i39.tinypic.com/2ecgj2e.png)
it aint getting through!![[linked image]](http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp249/chossmelli/peters.jpg)
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