There is been much chatter recently about possibility of an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear or military facilities.There's also been a lot of blames being thrown around on either side of the issue.I think this discussion is long overdue and would help clear out some misconceptions that may exist amongst other WAFF members.

I've been reading posts by most WAFF members here and it seems to me that there are two distinct prevailing opinions when it comes to Iranian members here.
1-Pro Regime
2-Critical of regime

Bear in mind this categorization is not meant to portray a blanket agreement over a variety of issues.On the contrary,members in each group can be in complete disagreement on a wide variety of subjects.But when it comes to the possibility of an Israeli attack on Iran this categorization holds(for the most part).

The view of "Critical of Regime";

A great number of members here such as Koz4k,Fariborz,Niroo,Chossmelli,Kia..and I are against an Israeli attack for the following reasons;

1-This regime does not represent the Iranian people.An Israeli attack would cause unwanted damage and casualty on innocent Iranians who otherwise oppose the regime.Any such attack may indeed produce the opposite effect and produce a strong anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran(which will be hijacked and misused by the regime).

2-This regime is full of hot air and empty slogans.They will never endanger their own existence by launching a Nuclear attack on Israel.Therefore Israel's existence is not endangered despite many public threats by the Iranian regime.


First of all I'd like to mention that,
I'm sure there are many other reasons why I think this would be a very WRONG undertaking and I'm also quite positive (as Choosmelli and Kia.. pointed out) that there are other reasons why this attack may not even be feasible or practical either as far as Israel is concerned (Regardless of being right or wrong) but the above two dominant reasons seems universal amongst most regime-critical members here.

(I know I'm taking an huge unauthorized liberty by speaking for members I mentioned their names here.This was my impression of your views on the issue and you are more than welcome to correct me on any point you may find conflicting.)

Now to the members with a Pro-Regime stance on the issue.They seem to dislike the idea of an Israeli attack on Iranian soil just as much as the other group but they also believe;

1-They claim that the Iranian people are fully behind this regime and its President Ahamadinejad.
2-They also claim that the regime means what it says and slogan such as "Death to Israel" or "The Israeli cancer must be eradicated from Middle East" are not empty slogans.They print on Shahab missiles slogans such as "We will crush America under our feet" and "Israel must be wiped off the map".
Now they may try to tell you that it's a translation problem but as Iranians we all know that not a day goes by when the Iranian TV or Radios talk about immediate destruction of Israel.

Here's why I think these regime supporters are nothing but a bunch of hypocrite cry-babies.If you guys want to be taken seriously,if you really mean what you're shouting and you plan to destroy Israel and then America why are you bitching and moaning all the time about being attacked?Why are you complaining to UN about Israel's threats???Why are you blaming anti regime forces of encouraging an attack then?

You see people such as myself,Niroo,Koz4k,Fariboorz,Chossmelli...can be highly critical of Israel.Some of us can outright consider Israel an illegitimate state even.
But here's the difference,we do not proclaim an agenda to actively peruse the destruction of Israel!
I myself consider Israel as an illegitimate state but so what?
I can consider many countries illegitimate,I may consider Botswana as an illegitimate state (Apology to WAFF's Botswanaian members!) but I don't plan to destroy Botswana and I don't expect Botswana to attack me.
WE happen to think an Israeli attack on Iran is uncalled for because WE believe the great majority of Iranian people share the same view as us.They may have many grievances toward Israel but they do not wish to start a conflict with Israel either.

Again here's why I think you the Regime supporters are full of crap,let's presume that YOU are right and WE are wrong,fair enough?
Let's assume that your slogans are not hot air and there is actually a real intent to destroy Israel behind your words.Let's assume that the majority of Iranian people indeed want to participate in active destruction of Israel.
I don't get it,why would you be so upset over an Israeli attack then?
Were you expecting Zionists to lay down and die without putting up a fight?
I thought you wanted to free Jerusalem by armed resistance?
Isn't this what you keep preaching to Palestinian groups?No dialogue,only armed resistance!

Don't even bother coming here with "Ahamdinejad didn't say Wipe off" or whatever.You may have a very limited Farsi vocabulary but I listen to Iranian radios, watch TV and read Iranian newspapers everyday.There are clear references to total destruction of Israel.You may argue that you are right for wanting to destroy Israel(and you may have a case too) but you can not complain about not wanting to be attacked!

I, too, am opposed to an Israeli attack on Iran. I think the Iranian regime learned from Iraq and that its nuclear facilities cannot be easily destroyed in a single attack, all Israel is capable of mounting, and therefore will be worse than ineffective.

I am opposed to a nuclear armed Iran. I am not opposed to a nuclear Iran. They are different, but my fear and my belief is that the current regime in Iran will use the excuse of nuclear power in an attempt to acquire and extent its regional influence through nuclear weapons.

Since the likelihood of this regime trying to get nuclear weapons regardless of international threats or sanctions, only the Iranian people can save it from some sort of attack. It must have a government who will abide by the NPT and allow open and transparent inspections to ensure that it is not seeking weapons but rather power so that its oil can be sold.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

just to clarify I dont think Pappa Rage is necessarily a regime supporter but that he believes the protests in Iran are instigated by foreign countries such as Britain and that Mousavi-Karoubi-Rafsanjani are actually worst than Ahmedinejad and Khamenaei. Papparage is much different than the hardcore members like Rahbar and Paradox who calls everyone a eyebrow waxing refugee, I dont think he warrants anyone to gang up on him regardless of any misunderstandings.

Also Surena there is a third group the people that support an attack on Iran, those being Arash and fightclub who called me a traitor and a regime supporter for saying they're simple fools.

An attack by foreigners against Iran will only give the regime the excuse it needs to reduce personal liberties and take control with force, (anyone that protests or disagrees will be killed as collaborators) also Iranians themselves will support the regime againsts foreigners due to patriotism.

No matter how bad this regime is they will not treat Iran worst than foreigners who would pit ethncity against ethnicity using their proven methods of divide and conquer to permenantly weaken a nation. We must still be wary of foreign interference

Provost,
You raised some valid points regarding a possible Nuclear armed Iran.This is a valid argument.
Personally I believe this regime to be much more pragmatic than it may appear to an outsider.I do not believe that even a nuclear armed Iran would pose a real existential threat to Israel and therefore I don't see an Israeli attack even as "last option" justifiable.

My main point was geared toward those hypocrite regime supporters who want their cake and eat it too!
They want to be perceived internationally as tough guys, actively waging a real war against Israel and US while bitching about the possibility of getting attacked at the same time!

Kia jan,
You are right about a 3rd group who actually support such attack but I don't remember anyone on WAFF saying so,even Arash if I remember correctly denied that (I might be wrong on that).
In any case,who is a regime supporter and who is not,should not be a secret.The individual you mentioned made outrageous remarks in support of this regime and its vicious rabid dogs,he's making those comments in a time when any real Iranian is all but filled with hatred and anger toward these butchers.There was no premeditated plan to gang up on anyone but at the same time he should expect harsh reactions from many members,especially when the majority of members oppose his views with passion.
Similarly I would expect to receive the same treatment (if not much worse) if I frequent a pro regime forum,don't you agree?

My god surena you are on overdrive here, drop a gear, slow down, then breath through your nose and out your mouth. The first thing that I noticed that was wrong with your post before even reading kias reply was your grouping of people. Everyone is an individual and their views are not all going to be the same like you're insinuating - I might share alot of followers views but I don't necessarily share all of them. I consider myself a mere realist. And onto your claim about the apparent call for israels destruction, I find it interesting that you don't once mention all the times Ahmadinejad has clarified his stance on this issue by calling for free elections in that region by all the people living there and letting them decide their fate. I myself am not a proponent of war, I am for self defence I don't support anyone in Iran starting a war with Israel without them having fired the first bullet.

As for Mousavi, who is he? Just because he is against someone you don't like does not mean he is any better for the country. Were the same people who voted in Khatami not critical of him eight years later?

----------------------------------------
And all of this controversy circles me
And it seems like the media immediately points a finger at me
So I point one back at 'em
But not the index or the pinky or the ring or the thumb
It's the one you put up when you don't give a ****
When you won't just put up with the bull**** they pull
Cause they full of **** too

""was your grouping of people. Everyone is an individual and their views are not all going to be the same like you're insinuating""

That's what I said!
I said Anti regime members disagree on a wide range of issues,yet they oppose an Israeli attack despite their differences (mostly),can you read?




""And onto your claim about the apparent call for israels destruction, I find it interesting that you don't once mention all the times Ahmadinejad has clarified his stance on this issue by calling for free elections in that region by all the people living there and letting them decide their fate.""

Ahmadinejad has made plenty of conflicting remarks.He usually says something when he's on CNN but he says the complete opposite the next day to Fars or IRIB..news reporters.That's an old tactic!
The regime is not only Ahamdinejad,there are hundreds of officials in this regime from top to bottom who have made it clear what their ultimate goal is.
For god sake they parade Shahab missiles with banners which read "crush America" and "wipe Israel off the map"!
You see your answer just doesn't cut it.Do you want to see a collection of remarks by many, many regime statesmen about their desire to destroy Israel?



""As for Mousavi, who is he? Just because he is against someone you don't like does not mean he is any better for the country. Were the same people who voted in Khatami not critical of him eight years later? ""

LOL,you keep bringing up Mousavi and Khatam as if they're somehow my marja taghlid!
My ultimate goal is and has always been complete destruction of this regime. I never viewed Mousavi or Khatam as anything but a stepping stone toward reaching Democracy for Iran.

As for your personal stance,you seem to gradually distance yourself from every controversial issue which has made this regime so repulsive worldwide!!In a way You appear to support the regime and its hardline leaders yet you condemn the same actions those regime leaders took and are still taking?!!

So far you called the US embassy take over as "Stupid", unaware that right now pro reformists call this action "unwise" while pro Ahmadinejad fans are openly proud of it!Ahmadinejad addresses the crowd on its anniversary every year.

You reject a call to destroy Israel and free Palestine ,with absolute disregard to the fact that these are official regime policies implemented by the leader and his favorite President Ahmadinejad while reformists call for an end to Ahmadinejad damaging rhetorics!

I'm getting the feeling that you are not exactly sure what you're defending in this regime which enforces my earlier observation about you that you're more about disliking the Australian society and West in general than liking the regime.
Can I ask you why you dislike Australia so much?

Papa, read more carefully. Besides, it wouldn't be very realistic to make an analysis of every individual member.

I must add, that at this stage, I'm opposed to an Iran with nuclear weapons capabilities. I don't think that the current regime, or any of its successors are responsible enough to handle such weapons. To put it bluntly, there are too many idiots present.


------------------------------
#Neda
------------------------------
_{I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen Roberts}


------------------------------

It goes without question that I would not support any military action aginast Iran by others when Iran has not been the aggressor.

My position is a bit like Provost on this, and I emphasis a bit.

IMO having the technology is a definite right, the technology invariably leads to ABILITY to produce the weapons, and that is unavoidable.

I dislike all weapons; I also consider them a waste of resources. Furthermore I believe majority of conflicts today are what Sun Tzu classified as wanton war. In order to deter the aggressor (provided they are not nuts), all you need to do is make it not worth their while. It is immaterial how many of your population and how much of your land can be destroyed, if the cost to the aggressor is more than he can bear it will be deterrent enough.  Best example is the French deterrent during cold war, nowhere near enough to destroy all of old Soviet Union but enough to cause unbearable damage.

With above in mind, I would not be surprised at all, if say West Germany and Japan already posses disassembled thermo nuclear devices in high enough quantity that if they were forced to, they would show their capability in a matter of weeks.

So most I would want Iran to have is a number of disassembled nuclear not thermo nuclear devices and also never test a weapon, and do not develop and maintain a useless arsenal when the money can be spent more wisely on betterment of social conditions and for people.

That's what I said!
I said Anti regime members disagree on a wide range of issues,yet they oppose an Israeli attack despite their differences (mostly),can you read?

I see, so anyone who is not anti regime agrees on all issues right. You are but a naive fool. Read my post more carefully.

Ahmadinejad has made plenty of conflicting remarks.He usually says something when he's on CNN but he says the complete opposite the next day to Fars or IRIB..news reporters.That's an old tactic!
The regime is not only Ahamdinejad,there are hundreds of officials in this regime from top to bottom who have made it clear what their ultimate goal is.
For god sake they parade Shahab missiles with banners which read "crush America" and "wipe Israel off the map"!
You see your answer just doesn't cut it.Do you want to see a collection of remarks by many, many regime statesmen about their desire to destroy Israel?

Show me evidence ahmadinejad said his goal is to destroy israel.

LOL,you keep bringing up Mousavi and Khatam as if they're somehow my marja taghlid!
My ultimate goal is and has always been complete destruction of this regime. I never viewed Mousavi or Khatam as anything but a stepping stone toward reaching Democracy for Iran.

As for your personal stance,you seem to gradually distance yourself from every controversial issue which has made this regime so repulsive worldwide!!In a way You appear to support the regime and its hardline leaders yet you condemn the same actions those regime leaders took and are still taking?!!

So far you called the US embassy take over as "Stupid", unaware that right now pro reformists call this action "unwise" while pro Ahmadinejad fans are openly proud of it!Ahmadinejad addresses the crowd on its anniversary every year.

You reject a call to destroy Israel and free Palestine ,with absolute disregard to the fact that these are official regime policies implemented by the leader and his favorite President Ahmadinejad while reformists call for an end to Ahmadinejad damaging rhetorics!

I'm getting the feeling that you are not exactly sure what you're defending in this regime which enforces my earlier observation about you that you're more about disliking the Australian society and West in general than liking the regime.
Can I ask you why you dislike Australia so much?


You are using mousavi and khatami as a stepping stone to destroy the regime? Did you even vote? They are part of the regime you fool, go support rajavi if you need a stepping stone.

I don't care what some of ahmadinejads supporters said, good for them.

Again where is this call to destroy israel? You saw this on a banner somewhere and now it is official policy is it?

I love australia, who said I dislike it? The people are pretty laid back and you can go out on the street to see promiscuous drunk girls in miniskirts with half their ass hanging out, titties almost showing. Which man doesn't like that? But I love Iran even more, I love it so much I want my sisters to keep their dignity.

----------------------------------------
And all of this controversy circles me
And it seems like the media immediately points a finger at me
So I point one back at 'em
But not the index or the pinky or the ring or the thumb
It's the one you put up when you don't give a ****
When you won't just put up with the bull**** they pull
Cause they full of **** too

First to the part I consider the most important and revealing.



You said,
"I love australia, who said I dislike it? The people are pretty laid back and you can go out on the street to see promiscuous drunk girls in miniskirts with half their ass hanging out, titties almost showing. Which man doesn't like that? But I love Iran even more, I love it so much I want my sisters to keep their dignity."




So you love Australia,not of its Freedom of press or expression,not because of its Universities and colleges,not because of its culture,arts,literature..,not because it gave your family a shelter,not because it gave you an education,not because it gave you a future .....
No!!
You love Australia because you can "see promiscuous drunk girls in miniskirts with half their ass hanging out, titties almost showing".
Wow,what a revelation!

You ask " Which man doesn't like that?"
I tell you which man,a man who's complaining about the lack of religion in the West,a man who bitches about the corruption in adopted country.
Which man?
A man who says he loves Iran because it's not corrupted like Australia!

And do you know which man would like it?
A hypocrite who doesn't really give a shiite about religion and corruption.A hypocrite who doesn't even know jack about the regime he's defending,despite never living under it or even properly speak the language of its people!
How pathetic you are really?
But why would a person who admits enjoying the vises of the West,persist in defending this regime?!!
Here's a clue,
"But I love Iran even more, I love it so much I want my sisters to keep their dignity."

I can keep on busting you up time after time but you'd keep returning with some sorry arse excuse,what's the point?
You did more damage by exposing yourself,you're turned into a laughing stuck now.

Now you're exposed for what you really are, a unemployed,broke arse,ungrateful brat,from an family taking refuge in Australia (who ran from the regime you defend) who doesn't know jack about the regime neither does know the language.You love Australia for its "promiscuous drunk girls in miniskirts with half their ass hanging out" but you love Iran because you want your "sisters to keep their dignity"!

I think my job is done with you,boy.
Get the last word,it may give you some much needed relief



You said,
"I see, so anyone who is not anti regime agrees on all issues right. You are but a naive fool. Read my post more carefully."



You never cease to prove your stupidity!
Read the original post;
"Bear in mind this categorization is not meant to portray a blanket agreement over a variety of issues.On the contrary,members in EACH group can be in complete disagreement on a wide variety of subjects."

What can I do if you're retarded?


Here's a few examples of regime's PEACEFUL intentions toward Israel,








Only an idiot can not see what is going on here!


Now your other claim that Ahmadinejad was against STUPID US embassy takeover.
I'm also at the belief that it was stupid but the problem is,Khomeini called it the "2nd revolution" "even bigger than the 1st"!
Your Ahmadinejad was against the idea initially because he wanted the USSR's embassy attacked as well!!

This is what Khomeini writes to Pope when the Pope intervened for the release of hostages:
Quote "For fifty years, the noblest of our youth have been killed and undergone inhuman and savage torture by agents of the shah and the U.S. During all these years, the Pope neither supported our oppressed people nor made an effort to mediate. All of a sudden, when our youth, who had been under pressure and who had suffered for many years, took over the den of espionage and arrested some persons in that house of spies, against whom there is sufficient evidence of wrong-doing, the Pope has decided to mediate.

A Center for Espionage and Conspiracy
The best evidence is that il1 the course of the three hours while the youth were struggling to penetrate the den of spies, the Embassy personnel were busy destroying the documentary evidence, leaving only a pile of powder behind. If the building were truly an Embassy, and if these papers were truly Embassy documents, there would have been no need to destroy them so hastily. Now that the conspiring has been made evident to us, conspiracy not only against Iran, but against Islam and against humanity in general, our people both within and outside the country, along with the people of other nations, are supporting this brave act.

Again you prove to be an idiot.You don't even know what you're defending!


You said,
"You are using mousavi and khatami as a stepping stone to destroy the regime? Did you even vote? They are part of the regime you fool, go support rajavi if you need a stepping stone."



So according to your wise recommendations,those of us who favor a Democratic future for Iran and oppose the current regime MUST follow Rajavi!
Here again,you display a tremendous ability to display idiocy!