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Iran put some of its radars on display

November 19 2010 at 5:19 PM

  (Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

New fire controle system with Electro Optics:

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This one is said to be a 3D National radar:

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THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 19 2010, 5:21 PM 

Very nice video on the radars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4oOIfxZLE&feature=player_embedded

[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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[linked image]
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[linked image]

 
 

(Login arminkaza)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 20 2010, 4:48 AM 

what is the specification

 
 

Hadi
(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 20 2010, 7:03 PM 

None provided.

[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 

Coalde
(Login coalde)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 20 2010, 7:10 PM 

Here is an interesting article from Australia regarding assessing Iranian air Defenses, with a section on radar. Note there are a lot good pictures in the article at the original source.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-170710-1.html

Reassessing Iran's Air Defences
Air Power Australia - Australia's Independent Defence Think Tank

Air Power Australia NOTAM
17th July, 2010

Dr Carlo Kopp, SMAIAA, MIEEE, PEng,
Head of Capability Analysis, Air Power Australia

Contacts: Carlo Kopp

Iran recently paraded a Russian built Nebo SVU counter-stealth radar system. Depicted is an NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU VHF-band AESA radar demonstrator towed by a Ural 4320 6 x 6 tractor on display in deployed configuration (Image © Miroslav Gyrösi).

Ongoing disagreements between the Western alliance and Iran over that nation's illicit nuclear materials program have fuelled considerable speculation in recent weeks over the possibility of Israeli or US led air strikes against Iran's nuclear industrial base. Should this outcome arise, attacking aircraft will have to overcome a disparate but rapidly modernising Integrated Air Defence System (IADS).

Performing accurate assessments of Iran's military capabilities is always challenging, as Iran is a closed society run by an Islamo-fascist regime, itself dominated by a theocratic leadership, and its military arm, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC). This arrangement is in many key respects modelled on the 1940s Nazi state, where the regime maintained its own private military force (the Waffen SS) to make military coups against the regime difficult, if not impossible.

Air Power Australia has published two assessments of Iran's air defence system since 2007, one exploring the technology used in Iran's IADS, the other the deployment of strategic SAM systems and their achievable coverage. Neither assessment has credited Iran with an effective capability, and for good reasons, as much of Iran's inventory of radar equipment and SAMs qualifies as obsolete by contemporary standards [1], [2].

Three SAM types provide primary area defence coverage:

1. The Russian supplied Almaz S-200VE Vega / SA-5B Gammon long range SAM, with a range of up to 200 nautical miles against high flying targets;
2. The Chinese supplied HQ-2 Sayyad / CSA-1 or 2 Guideline medium range SAM, with a range of around 30 nautical miles;
3. The US supplied Raytheon MIM-23 Hawk tactical SAM, kept operational and modified since the fall of the Shah in 1979, with a range of around 15 nautical miles.

Claims have emerged that Iran has reverse engineered the Hawk and is manufacturing components or systems. Similar claims have also emerged around the Chinese supplied SA-2 Guideline. Reports of unspecified upgrades to the Russian supplied SA-5 Gammons also exist. No good open source validation has emerged as yet for any of these claims, as a result of which assessments are limited to close in and overhead image interpretation, which cannot usually help in assessing improvements to guidance and internal electronic components, such as missile seekers and datalinks.

A wide range of possibilities exists, in terms of technology upgrades available for the S-200VE Vega / SA-5B Gammon, the HQ-2 Sayyad / CSA-1/2 Guideline, and sufficient basic technology exists in the global market to effect numerous upgrades to the MIM-23B Hawk. While the latter would involve considerable indigenous engineering effort, as suggested by Iranian media claims around the Mersad system, upgrades to the original Soviet SAM systems and supporting radars are widely available, with offerings from Russia, Belarus, the Ukraine, Serbia and other nations now available in the market.

The basic S-200VE Vega / SA-5B Gammon and HQ-2 Sayyad / CSA-1/2 Guideline have been wholly compromised since the end of the Cold War, as a result of which highly effective electronic countermeasures techniques exist against the radar equipment employed in both. The original analogue SNR/RSNA-75 Fan Song, SJ-202 Gin Sling and 5N62 Square Pair cannot compete against contemporary Digital RF Memory (DRFM) jammer technology, whether used in self protection systems, or support jamming systems.

The same is not necessarily true of any digital rebuilds which may have been applied to the engagement radars and in the instance of the CWSARH S-200VE Vega / SA-5B Gammon and Mersad, also the missile terminal seekers. Upgrades produced in Belarus for instance incorporate fully digital signal and data processing, modern ECCM features, and jam resistant frequency hopping waveforms, as well as non-coherent emitting decoys [3].

Another possibility, for which no evidence exists to date, is that of hybridisation of these legacy SAMs, using foreign supplied engagement radars, such as the Chinese H-200 space feed PESA.

Given the absence of public disclosure policy in most potential suppliers of such upgrades, covert intelligence collection may be the only way to determine if the claimed upgrades are real or no more than artefacts of Iran's very active propaganda machine.

Iran's Mersad SAM system appears to be a reverse engineered derivative of the MIM-23B Hawk which was the principal SAM operated by Iran before the fall of the Shah, Reza Pahlavi. The system appears to use a largely new package of radar equipment, although the TV tracker equipped CW illuminator resembles the original X-band AN/MPQ-46 HPIR design (left). The acquisition radar also closely resembles the AN/MPQ-50 PAR design (below). Details of other system components have not been disclosed to date.


Most of the recent media coverage surrounding Iran's SAM capabilities has centred on the long delayed delivery of a several batteries of Russian built Almaz S-300PMU1 / SA-20A Gargoyle SAM systems. This SAM system is the export configuration of the late Soviet era S-300PM, the first digital variant of the S-300P series, but lacking the longer ranging radars, missiles and more sophisticated battery networking of the later S-300PMU2 Favorit exported in large numbers to China. Nevertheless, the S-300PMU1 is a formidable SAM system, comparable to earlier variants of the Raytheon MIM-104 Patriot, but with much better mobility and thus survivability under air attack. To date no Western air force has fought against the S-300P series SAM system [4].

On the 9th June, 2010, the UN Security council voted to upgrade the sanctions regime against Tehran, as a result of which the Russians are now unlikely to proceed with the delivery of these systems to Iran. Official statements by the Russians since then have been interpreted and re-interpreted in the Western, Russian, Israeli and Iranian media. Israeli sources have cited the Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Andrei Denisov, as claiming Moscow believes that the sanctions resolution clearly forbids the sale of the S-300 system to Iran.

Since late June, Iranian media have been actively denouncing Russia's reluctance to complete the deal, with claims that Russia had already been paid for the SAMs. In late June, Iran's Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi was quoted in the Tehran Times, claiming that Iran would manufacture its own long range SAM systems - a claim not unlike Iran's public declaration during the 1980s, that it would design and build its own replacement for US supplied Grumman F-14A Tomcat fighters.

Earlier claims had emerged that Iran would procure the very similar, but newer in electronic hardware design, Chinese built HQ-9 SAM system. To date no evidence has emerged that the Chinese have been receptive to this idea China has been very actively marketing the HQ-9 internationally, since last year, but would confront serious international political challenges in exporting this system to Iran.

From an analytical perspective, much more interesting than the S-300PMU1


[LINKED IMAGE]"That is not dead which can eternal lie, yet with stranger aeons, even Death may die."
The Call of Cthulu, H.P. Lovecraft
[LINKED IMAGE]

 
 

WAFFer
(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 21 2010, 12:16 PM 

No offense but I gave up reading after the first paragraph. I take it as an insult that a godforsaken Island like Australia that is neither known for it covert intelligence gathering nor for its expertise in Mid-East could even consider commenting on Iran's deterrance capabilities.

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(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 21 2010, 5:34 PM 

Come on, it's Arse-tralia... if a country of convicts isn't going to know about radars, then who will?!!

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THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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Coalde
(Login coalde)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 21 2010, 6:20 PM 

Oh come on the TuAF or the HAF could wipe out Iranian air defences in a short afternoon. This stuff is all bought off shelf from other countries...indigenously Iranian developed air defences being slightly more effective than the NERF gun on my desk against any sort of air force using anything that moves faster than Fokker DR.I.

Of course this all stems from the fact that more scientific texts are translated into Greek (12M) every year than into Persian (31M)...with the works being translated into Persian being primarily aimed at how to correctly accessorize a suicide vest from a fashion perspective (I am guessing you fairies are concerned that you are worried that you are wearing the correct shade of eye shadow for your meeting with Allah).


If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.

George Bernard Shaw

 
 

WAFFer
(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 21 2010, 7:07 PM 

Now our maple syrup expert all of a sudden became an expert on Iran too.

I like to see our semi-colony Canadian provide us with some kind of proof of an Iranian being a suicide bomber.



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(Login coalde)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 21 2010, 7:32 PM 

@PR

Right after you provide some evidence for your opinions regarding Australia...I suggest you crawl back under whatever rock you came from and leave the military discussions to the adults you pathetic troll.

@Hadi

Can you provide some details as to what is being shown in the pictures?


If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.

George Bernard Shaw

 
 
WAFFer
(Login SargeAUS)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 1:16 AM 

Air Power Australia are just a bunch of discredited crackpots who think that Australia should tailor the Defence Force around protecting the North West Shelf from incursions by India's and China's non-existent fleets of Backfires by upgrading 40 year old F-111s with F-119 engines and APG-77 radars. I wouldn't trust them to give me the time of day let alone an opinion on radars.

 
 

Hadi
(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 2:42 AM 

coalde, I can provide you with some info on the radars, but Im a little busy with choosing the cloure for my suicude vest. Not sure what shade of red to choose.
Im haveing a date with my Allah you see, but not before I see you Jesus first, so I have to look fab...
Sorry for not having time to waste on you...

[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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(Login Combat_Master)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 5:22 AM 

Iran should sign a defense cooperation pact, get you guys up to date with radars. And you can give us some ballistic missile tech happy.gif



[linked image]
Pardus... For Freedom...


 
 


(Login coalde)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 5:25 AM 

"Sorry for not having time to waste on you..."

Well Hadi you keep coming here to post sh*t...sorry I keep forgetting that Iranians are children who can't really handle discussing things and in instead prefer to just look a pictures of ATV's with camo paint and dune buggies with small calibre gatling guns (while pretending that these are viable weapons systems for a nation state to protect it's borders with).

"Im haveing a date with my Allah you see, but not before I see you Jesus first, so I have to look fab... "

Well I am an atheist so I suspect I won't be seeing Jesus anytime soon...when atheists die we just become worm food...much like you religious people...

Since you and PR seem to be incapable of having any sort of discussion surrounding military matters with any WAFFer not pretending, which is funny since both of you are about as Iranian as Freya, may I suggest this message board for you...

http://forumus.sanriotown.com/scripts/mb2/mb2.cgi?rm=main

...seems to be more yours and PR's speed.


If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.

George Bernard Shaw

 
 
WAFFer
(Login ironmanx)
WAFFer

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 6:55 AM 

Raghfarm,Just Ignore this Idiot above. I am not even reading what he types. His attention whoring *** gives me headaches when I try to read and understand where he is coming from. I think its just his way of saying "Can I please suck your dick?"

 
 

Cizerim
(Login Cizerim)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 7:58 AM 


"None provided."
____________

Hmmmmmm.......

[linked image]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CArYd1b6Ztg
(Nice...really nice cans)





 
 

Hadi
(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 11:24 AM 

Coalde, let me get this right....

When you said: "Persian being primarily aimed at how to correctly accessorize a suicide vest from a fashion perspective (I am guessing you fairies are concerned that you are worried that you are wearing the correct shade of eye shadow for your meeting with Allah)."


That was your attempt to have a serioues military conversation?!!
I see...

And you say it's us who are incapable of having a serioues conversation?!!



[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 11:48 AM 

coalde, I can provide you with some info on the radars, but Im a little busy with choosing the cloure for my suicude vest. Not sure what shade of red to choose.

May I recommend scarlet? I think you'll be happy with that color.

Raghfarm,Just Ignore this Idiot above. I am not even reading what he types. His attention whoring *** gives me headaches when I try to read and understand where he is coming from. I think its just his way of saying "Can I please suck your dick?"

Iron, your obsession with homosexuality is really getting old. Why don't you seek a homosexual forum to frequent?

Some people are suffering from lack of work, some from lack of water, many more from lack of wisdom.

Calvin Coolidge

 
 
Sheogorath
(Login Sheogorath)
Administrator

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 9:10 PM 

Well, then it is also possible that Coalde's NERF gun could have better accuracy then those dishes wink.gif Why is it you are so ashamed of ? Why don't disclose any info at all ? People less challenged then your lot intellectually might as well take this as a "not so confident" way of showing off.

Photobucket

 
 

(Login ironmanx)
WAFFer

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 9:22 PM 


 
 


(Login coalde)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 22 2010, 9:34 PM 

""Can I please suck your dick?""

Jesus you are a homosexual...of course there is nothing wrong with that.


If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.

George Bernard Shaw

 
 

WAFFer
(Login cabatli_53)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 1:31 AM 

"Iran should sign a defense cooperation pact, get you guys up to date with radars. And you can give us some ballistic missile tech "

x2

Discover [linked image] with Pardus... For Freedom... [linked image]
[linked image]
Turk Insani Para Gibidir. Icine Isik Tut Ataturk Yoksa Sahtedir...

 
 

WAFFer
(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 4:09 AM 

I think that's a fabulous idea. A NATO ally, pledged to defend the US, also allied with a nation whose stated goal is the destruction of the US. that sounds like a recipe for success to me.

A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny.


Calvin Coolidge

 
 

Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 5:33 AM 

"a nation whose stated goal is the destruction of the US"

On another thread you took offend when I adressed you as a propaganda machine. How the hell do you then justify comments like this? So one of Iran's "stated goals" is the destroy the US? What a pile of BS.

.

edit. grammar check!


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WAFFer
(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 5:34 AM 

with a nation whose stated goal is the destruction of the US.

The last time I checked it was the United States that insisted on keeping the military attack on Iran on the table; The last time I checked, it was the United States that has warships in the Persian Gulf and not Iran off the U.S. coast.

As you can see, this is what I call the "Fox News syndrome". They brainwash you to such an extent that you start seeing things backwards.



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(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 6:22 AM 

Propaganda? Really? Are you really going to make me start posting the quotations of the IRI's intentions? When I get back from court I'll start posting. I'll stop at 100 then you can say how they are all mistranslated. There is propaganda here, but it isn't coming from me, Gentlemen.

A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny.


Calvin Coolidge

 
 


(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 10:26 AM 

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


When you come back from court???

Are being taken to court for impersonating a lawyer?!! LOL

Or maybe your neighbours are taking you to court for being so full of crap, and stinking out the whole neighbourhood?


[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
-------------------------------------------

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 11:03 AM 

Here's an installment, Gentlemen:

I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one anothers hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.

Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11-grade Iranian schoolbook

"Now is the time to invite people to accept the rule of the righteous, and [especially that] of the most righteous of [rulers] - the Hidden Imam."

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad August 25-26, 2007

"The oppressors and tyrants are responsible for all the difficulties and problems currently faced by the nations, and the only way to establish justice is through popular uprising and determined resistance in the face of these oppressors."

--Mahmoud Ahmadinejad August 25-26, 2007


"[The day] of these aggressors... who are oppressing and controlling the nations, is now coming to an end."

---Mahmoud Ahmadinejad August 25-26, 2007

"The current problems faced by the world result from [the rule] of unworthy rulers."

---Mahmoud Ahmadinejad August 28, 2007

"The ultimate solution is to replace these unworthy regimes and rulers, and to establish the rule of the Hidden Imam."

---Mahmoud Ahmadinejad August 28, 2007

God willing, with the force of God behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come, and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad


Get ready for a world minus the U.S. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad


It is the mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to erase Israel from the map of the region. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini


The end of the U.S. will begin in Iraq. As the Imam [Khomeini] said, One day the U.S., too, would be history. Supreme Leader Khameini


The American regime can expect a resounding slap and devastating fist-blow from the Muslim nation for its support of the Zionist crimes and criminals. Supreme Leader Khameini


The nations will soon see the fall of the criminal Zionist regime and America.
IRNA, January 2, 2007http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sd&ID=SP140907&Page=archives

Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad



America is the great Satan, the wounded snake.
Ayatollah Khomeini

Islam's jihad is a struggle against idolatry, sexual deviations, plunder, repression, and cruelty. The war waged by [non-Muslim] conquerors, however, aims at promoting lust and animal pleasures. They care not if whole countries are wiped out and many families left homeless. But those who study jihad will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. All the countries conquered by Islam or to be conquered in the future will be marked for everlasting salvation. For they shall live under [God's law].
Ayatollah Khomeini

We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world.

* Ayatollah Khomeini Speech in Qom 1980, as quoted in Nest of Spies : America's Journey to Disaster in Iran (1989) by Amir Taheri, p. 269
If one permits an infidel to continue in his role as a corrupter of the earth, the infidel's moral suffering will be all the worse. If one kills the infidel, and this stops him from perpetrating his misdeeds, his death will be a blessing to him.

* Ayatollah Khomeini Speech on the day of Mohammed's birth (1984)

I will announce to the whole world with certainty that if those who are after the world want to face us in matters of religion we will stand up to their whole world. We will not sit until all of them are killed; until all of us are free or until we reach a larger freedom martyrdom.
Ayatollah Khomeini Sahifah Noor, v.20, p.118 (1987)

With our whole existence we will stop the spread of immunity for Americans even if it means a serious war.
Ayatollah Khomeini Sahifah Noor, v.20, p.232 (1988)

If Muslims do not seriously solve their issues with those who are after the world, or at least if they do not become a strong power in the world there will be problems. Right now, if America destroys an Islamic country with the excuse of protecting its interests who would stand up to him? There is no other path except fighting. The claws and teeth of the world powers, especially America, must be broken.
Ayatollah Khomeini Sahifah Noor, v.20, p.233 (1988)


Iranians stage mass protest against US
Jay Deshmukh
November 4, 2010

AFP

Thousands of Iranians chanted "Death to America" as they staged Thursday a mass protest against the "Great Satan" to mark the 31st anniversary of the capture of the American embassy by Islamist students.

Waving Iranian flags and carrying anti-US banners alongside posters of Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the largely young crowd also shouted anti-Israel slogans.

Banners saying "I will give my life for the leader (Khamenei)" and another quoting Iran's revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini as saying, "If you want to shout, shout at the US", were displayed at the closed embassy compound in central Tehran, an AFP correspondent reported.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Iran annually on November 4 marks the anniversary of the capture of the US embassy by Islamist students in Tehran in 1979, months after the Islamic revolution which toppled the US-backed shah.

The embassy has remained closed and the US and Iran have had no diplomatic ties since then.

The students, who took 52 American diplomats hostage for 444 days, said they were responding to Washington's refusal to hand over the deposed shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

Ezatollah Eragami, the keynote speaker at the rally and one of the 1979 hostage takers, hit out at US President Barack Obama over Washington's foreign policy.

"Obama has acted very weakly and badly when it comes to his foreign policy," Eragami, who now heads Iranian state media, told the cheering crowd.

"The reason for that is that he is using an array of advisers who are exhausted bureaucrats."

The organisers of Thursday's anti-US demonstration, in their final declaration, said that Iran considers "America as the Great Satan and enemy number one".

"The government and people must be alert towards the mercenary and anti-Islamic policy of America."
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/iranians-stage-mass-protest-against-us-20101104-17fr4.html

Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. . . . But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. . . . Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender [to the enemy]? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.

Ayatollah Khomeini


The great prophet of Islam in one hand carried the Koran and in the other a sword; the sword for crushing the traitors and the Koran for guidance. For those who could be guided, the Koran was their means of guidance, while as for those who could not be guided and were plotters, the sword descended on their heads. ...Islam is a religion of blood for the infidels but a religion of guidance for the other people.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini: Speech delivered at the Feyziyeh Theological School (August 24, 1979).


http://www.shiatv.net/player41.swf?file=http://www.shiatv.net/runmyfile.php?vkey=69e8c2aa22913a0d91b2&autostart=false&showfsbutton=true&


Supreme Leader of Iran: Muslim Nations 'Hate America'

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Thomas Erdbrink and William Branigin
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, June 4, 2009; 4:51 PM

TEHRAN, June 4 -- Iran's supreme leader dismissed President Obama's speech at Cairo University Thursday, saying the Muslim world continues to "hate America." And he criticized the United States and its allies for asserting that Iran seeks nuclear weapons, which he insisted are forbidden under Iran's brand of Islam.

Speaking shortly before Obama delivered his address, in which he called for a "new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world," Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said that "beautiful speeches" could not remove the hatred felt in the Muslim world against America.



"People of the Middle East, the Muslim region and North Africa -- people of these regions -- hate America from the bottom of their heart," Khamenei said at a gathering to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the father of Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution and Khamenei's predecessor as the predominantly Shiite Muslim country's supreme religious leader.


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"For a long time, these people have witnessed aggressive actions by America, and that's why they hate them," Khamenei, 69, told a crowd of several thousand supporters in his televised speech. He attributed these feelings to "violence, military intervention, rights violations and discrimination" by the United States.



Alluding to Obama's new approach in foreign affairs, he said that the previous administration of President George W. Bush had left an "ill-mannered image" of itself in the world.



"The new U.S. government seeks to transform this image," Khamenei said. "I say firmly that this will not be achieved by talking, speech and slogans." He added, "Even if [Obama] delivers hundreds of speeches and talks very sweetly, there will not be a change in how the Islamic countries perceive the United States." He called on Obama to deliver change "in practice."



Khamenei also denounced Israel as a "cancerous tumor in the heart" of the Islamic world, and he accused the U.S. military of "bombing innocent civilians" in Afghanistan. "What is the difference between this killing and killing by terrorists?" he asked rhetorically.



Regarding Iran's nuclear program, the main issue of contention between his country and the United States, Khamenei reiterated Tehran's assertions that it seeks only to generate electricity, and he referred to a religious edict, or fatwa, that he issued at least four years ago in which he declared that the production, stockpiling or use of nuclear weapons was prohibited under Islam. The Iranian government cited the fatwa at an August 2005 meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna.



"Our nation says we want to have a nuclear industry," Khamenei said Thursday. "We want to use nuclear energy in a peaceful way. However, the West and America say that the Iranian nation is seeking to make a nuclear bomb. Why are they telling lies?"



The senior Shiite cleric continued: "The Iranian government and nation have repeatedly said that we do not want nuclear weapons. We have announced that according to Islamic principles, the use of nuclear weapons is forbidden. It is dangerous to keep nuclear weapons. We are not seeking to have them. We do not want them."



Khamenei, who served as president of Iran for eight years in the 1980s, succeeded Khomeini as supreme leader in 1989, becoming the nation's highest-ranking political and religious authority. As such, he is more powerful than President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and appoints many key leaders, including the commanders of the armed forces and members of national security councils dealing with defense and foreign affairs.



Other Iranians reacted cautiously to Obama's speech. In it, the U.S. president acknowledged that the United States had "played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government" in 1953, but he pointed as well to an Iranian role in "acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians" since the 1979 Islamic revolution.



"Rather than remain trapped in the past, I've made it clear to Iran's leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward," Obama said. "The question now is not what Iran is against, but rather what future it wants to build."



Obama also said that "we have reached a decisive point" on nuclear weapons and the need to prevent a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. But he said that "any nation -- including Iran -- should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."



Mohammad Marandi, the head of the North American Studies Department at Tehran University, said of Obama's speech, "I didn't hear many new things from Obama. We need to see fundamental change in American policies. People in this region are expecting change as much as the people in the United States."



Marandi added in a telephone interview: "When Obama says that he recognizes Iran's rights to having peaceful nuclear energy, does that mean he will honor that right in negotiations with Iran? Or is this rhetoric? This is what we want to know."



However, political commentator Ali Reza Khamesian described Obama's acknowledgment of Iran's right to produce nuclear energy for peaceful purposes as "a step forward for better ties with the United States," the Associated Press reported.





Branigin reported from Washington.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/04/AR2009060402305.html
"The Iranian people's hatred for America is profound."
Ayatullah Ali Khamenei In a speech on Iranian state TV. (Middle East Media Research Institute, Oct. 30, 2008)

Read more:http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1905079,00.html#ixzz168LKOJ3G

At a speech in Tehran, Iranian Ayatollah Khamenei delivered what can only be described as fighting words, which likely have US and European security specialists on high alert.

AFP:

Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Monday that Iran is set to deliver a "punch" that will stun world powers during this week's 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution.

"The Iranian nation, with its unity and God's grace, will punch the arrogance (Western powers) on the 22nd of Bahman (February 11) in a way that will leave them stunned," Khamenei, who is also Iran's commander-in-chief, told a gathering of air force personnel.


Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/ayatollah-khamenei-iran-set-to-deliver-punch-that-will-stun-the-west-2010-2#ixzz168LugJDO

A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny.


Calvin Coolidge

 
 
Arta
(Login rightoussoul)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 11:30 AM 

lol look at the Provost the Zionist mouthpiece is up to his usuall stuff... Would you like me to show you some of the things the Zionists leaders have said? including American presidents? DIRECT THREATS OF WAR, THREATS OF NUCLEAR ATTACK?

even better why dont we forget about talk and see some real action...

How many people have died or been displaced due to American and Zionist actions? What is worse to talk war or to actually carry it out?

We should take a pole and see if people would rather have talk of war or actual war? I think that could be quite interesting. Would you rather be ruled be the hidden Imam or bombed to democracy and liberty by the americans..lol



 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 11:41 AM 

When you come back from court???

Yes, actually I was sitting as Juvenile Court Judge. Ours just had surgery.
A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny.


Calvin Coolidge

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 11:46 AM 

Arta, I stated that one of the IRI's goals was to destroy the US. You know, the nation they call the "Great Satan" and of which they regular chant "Marg bar Ameerka." I would not that Mar bar, in Farsi, means "Death to" Many here have, again trying to spread their propaganda, have claimed that "Marg bar" doesn't mean "death to" but should be translated as "Down with." You and I both know that Down in Farsi would be Payeen not Marg.

Clearly the founder of the IRI and its current leaders have a goal of destroying the US. That's what I said. That is the truth.

A government which lays taxes on the people not required by urgent public necessity and sound public policy is not a protector of liberty, but an instrument of tyranny.


Calvin Coolidge

 
 

Hadi
(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 2:19 PM 

LOL, you don't know the difference between criminal and family law, and they made you into a judge?! hahaha

Ok buddy, whatever makes you happy.

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THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
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[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 


(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 2:30 PM 

Again Randy, who is just spewing rhetoric and who is acutally acting? Iran or United States? Is Iran occupying any country? Is Iran present with Hundreds of Thousands of troops somewhere far away from its mainland? Has Iran made a state policy bombing another soverign state? Is Iran present all over the globe with countless bases?

As you can see if you try to make this a moral issue, United States is to be found at the bottom of the list You have no moral standing.

Iran's regime is a reactionary regime and when pushed, it pushes back. The advantage of the West is that the Iranian regime (due to its weaknesses) barks far more than it acts whereas the West does the opposite, speaking of liberation of democracy while committing atrocites and being heavily engaged in neo-colonialism.



-------------------------------------------

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 3:26 PM 

Again Randy, who is just spewing rhetoric and who is acutally acting? Iran or United States? Is Iran occupying any country? Is Iran present with Hundreds of Thousands of troops somewhere far away from its mainland? Has Iran made a state policy bombing another soverign state? Is Iran present all over the globe with countless bases?

That's a nice dodge, PR. Even if the US were, for the sake of argument, the most evil nation in the history of the world, or as Iran says the Great Satan, that would not change the fact that what I said was true. The IRI has as one of its founding goals the destruction of the US. I'm not making a value judgment on whether it is justified in this goal or not, simply that it is its goal. You denied that so I proved it. What's above is simply an attempt to distract from the point.

As you can see if you try to make this a moral issue, United States is to be found at the bottom of the list You have no moral standing.

I didn't make it a moral issue. Again, PR, you and Hadi, seem to think that if you just spew enough BS, that you can overwhelm those who disagree with you. I'm sorry but it doesn't work on me. Again, I simply stated the IRI's goal without any moral judgment whatsoever. To suggest otherwise, as you do here is both logically false and disingenuous.

Iran's regime is a reactionary regime and when pushed, it pushes back.

The IRI is a revolutionary regime, true. As one of its basic tenets it intentionally chose anti-Americanism to establish its bona fide nationalist credentials and legitimacy. Again, this is not a value or moral judgment, simply a statement of fact.

The advantage of the West is that the Iranian regime (due to its weaknesses) barks far more than it acts whereas the West does the opposite, speaking of liberation of democracy while committing atrocites and being heavily engaged in neo-colonialism.

Talk about moral judgments, let's sort out the facts inherent therein on which we can agree. The IRI is weak. The IRI puts on displays to make people think it is militarily strong. The West is often hypocritical in its dealings.

Now, if you'd like to have a rational discussion instead of this emotional hyperbole, I'll be happy to talk to you. If not, then I'll be happy to dissect your arguments and show them as logically fallacious and false.

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."


Calvin Coolidge

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 3:32 PM 

Yes, Hadi, I often sit as Judge in all of our courts when the elected judges are unavailable, your opinion of my legal acumen notwithstanding. I know I could never possibly be as smart as you are, you're of Iranian ancestry, after all, but I do have one advantage you don't seem to have and that's that I'm honest.

I made a statement. You called me a liar. I proved my point and now you have nothing left but personal venom. As with PR, if you want to have a rational discussion I'll be happy to oblige, if not, well, I know how busy you are choosing the right color for your vest closures and I'll henceforth simply point out when I think you are wrong.

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."


Calvin Coolidge


 
 

(Login ironmanx)
WAFFer

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 4:01 PM 

I have to agree with mikey here. We Iranians hate Americans and we do. We wouldn't mind Infidels dying. So does one third of the world population hating Americans. So what? happy.gif
We Muslims don't like Infidels. Yes we also teach our children to hate Americans and Israelis. Want to cry about it ? happy.gif "MEHH MEHH WHY DO MUSLIMS HATE US SO MUCH sad.gif "
I would say get used to it.

 
 

WAFFer
(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 4:46 PM 

That's a nice dodge, PR.
I'm addressing your claim directly. No doging.
 
 
Even if the US were, for the sake of argument, the most evil nation in the history of the world, or as Iran says the Great Satan,
 
United States is an empire and it is devouring the entire world to sustain its dominion. Nothing more, nothing less and Iran is resisting it. If you like simple statement. You should acknowledge this.
 
 
that would not change the fact that what I said was true. The IRI has as one of its founding goals the destruction of the US.
 
Incorrect. You pulled up old statemens (in fact most of them were part of Friday sermons) some decades old and are trying to sell a BS idea that Iran is a threat to United States while nowhere is there any mention in Iranian constitution of your bogus claim.
Also, Iran doesn't have the military power to pose a threat to United States. At the same time, Iran can make a US invasion very costly. That is what the Mullahs are counting on. The rest is propaganda.
 
simply that it is its goal.
Rubbish. Iran may try to undermine U.S. policies in the Mid East (which is fully justified) but it won't go further than that.
 
What's above is simply an attempt to distract from the point.
On the contrary, you're adopting a revisionist propagandist hollow approach and that is what I call distracting from the point.

I didn't make it a moral issue.
That is fine but I will make it one: you don't have the right to make such baseless claims while your country (rightfully called the Great Satan) is engaged in unlawful occupations and after so many scancals and the Iraq debacle arrogantly refuses to distance itself from violence aginst Iran. In fact, your hollow claim itself is a diversion of facts and we are committed to pound that on the top of your head.
 
Again, PR, you and Hadi, seem to think that if you just spew enough BS,
 
I have proven (hands down) that you are indeed the one producing gibberish.
 
 that you can overwhelm those who disagree with you.
Basless claim. You may feel overwhelmed as you're not used to being confronted with facts. 
 
I'm sorry but it doesn't work on me.
I'm sorry we won't let you sell BS here. We will expose you as we have done it countless times.
 
 
I simply stated the IRI's goal without any moral judgment
and yet your statements are drenched in bias and prejudice as exposed. You're trying to twist reality.
It won't work that way.
 

The IRI is a revolutionary regime, true. As one of its basic tenets it intentionally chose anti-Americanism to establish its bona fide nationalist credentials and legitimacy. Again, this is not a value or moral judgment, simply a statement of fact.
 
We have had this discussion before: Iran's anti-Americanism is JUSTIFIED. It is the United States that made itself the enemy of Iran by interfering in the evolution of the country and by hampering democracy. To your demise, these are facts not your gibberish.
 


The IRI puts on displays to make people think it is militarily strong. The West is often hypocritical in its dealings.
 
The IRI is weak in a sense that it cannot afford to seek to destory United States but it certainly is capable of defending itself.


If not, then I'll be happy to dissect your arguments and show them as logically fallacious and false.
 
You better worry about defening your own hollow statements as your pseudo-arguments lie hereabove in shambles.

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."

I know the above is not part of your discussion with me but I couldn't help myself laughing. In a way it explains a lot about your disfunctional mind. It surprises me how arrogant and conceited you religious bigots could be. I take it as an insult. I just want you to know that after this statement I look at you the same way I would look at a Mullah.


-------------------------------------------

 
 


(Login Persian_revenge)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 23 2010, 4:52 PM 

 As with PR, if you want to have a rational discussion I'll be happy to oblige, if not, well,

Well, believe it or not. I have tried but you have disappointed me repeatedly in the past. As you always end up in a repetitive vicious cycle. Repeating your previous statements over and over again when pushed to a corner claiming vicotry while you're boring the heck out of me

I am afraid, we are heading to the same direction again.



-------------------------------------------

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 6:18 AM 

I'm addressing your claim directly. No doging.

Yes, PR, you were, and apparently still are. We werent talking about the US and its behavior, we were discussing whether it was a goal of the IRI to destroy the US. Trying to demonize the US, rightly or wrongly, when its behavior isnt the issue is a classical example of the logical fallacy known as Two wrongs make a right. By demonizing the US, again, Im not arguing whether that is or is not appropriate, has nothing whatsoever to do whether whether the IRI would like to destroy the US. I submitted overwhelming evidence based on the words of two Supreme Leaders and the current President, that prove that is true.

United States is an empire and it is devouring the entire world to sustain its dominion. Nothing more, nothing less and Iran is resisting it. If you like simple statement. You should acknowledge this.

Again, PR, we were not discussing the evil that is the US, we were discussing the IRIs desire to destroy the US.

Incorrect. You pulled up old statemens (in fact most of them were part of Friday sermons) some decades old and are trying to sell a BS idea that Iran is a threat to United States while nowhere is there any mention in Iranian constitution of your bogus claim.

With respect, PR, this is simply nonsense. I submitted the premise that a goal of the IRI was to destroy the US. I proved that argument with the words of the people who have controlled the IRI showing unequivocally that my premise was true. Are you seriously suggesting that the words of the Ayatollah Khomeini are not proof of what he wanted and hoped the IRI to do?

Also, Iran doesn't have the military power to pose a threat to United States. At the same time, Iran can make a US invasion very costly. That is what the Mullahs are counting on. The rest is propaganda.

I didnt say it was a threat, PR. I said it had a goal. I proved it had a goal.

Rubbish. Iran may try to undermine U.S. policies in the Mid East (which is fully justified) but it won't go further than that.

If what you are saying is true, PR, why the repeated rhetoric about destroying America? Lets face it, PR, had I wanted to I could have posted literally thousands of quotes from leaders of the IRI about the death or destruction of the US. If they dont mean it why are they not just saying it, but have been saying it continuously since 1979?

On the contrary, you're adopting a revisionist propagandist hollow approach and that is what I call distracting from the point.

Well, you obviously are more familiar with propaganda than I am. Is it propaganda, revisionist, hollow or otherwise, to quote the leaders of the IRI about what they want to see happen?

That is fine but I will make it one: you don't have the right to make such baseless claims while your country (rightfully called the Great Satan) is engaged in unlawful occupations and after so many scancals and the Iraq debacle arrogantly refuses to distance itself from violence aginst Iran. In fact, your hollow claim itself is a diversion of facts and we are committed to pound that on the top of your head.

Again, PR, if you want to talk about the morality of the position of the IRI, great. It wasnt what we were discussing, but Ill be happy to discuss it. Let me though get clear what the IRIs position is. Are you saying that because the US is, in fact, evil that it is morally correct for the IRI to want to destroy it?

I have proven (hands down) that you are indeed the one producing gibberish.

With respect, PR, you have done of the sort. I made a statement. You denied the statement. I proved the statement using the quotations of the IRIs leaders. You then try to make the argument whether the IRI is morally right in wanting to destroy the US.

Basless claim. You may feel overwhelmed as you're not used to being confronted with facts.

Facts? What fact did you submit? Frankly, as usual, Ive seen no facts coming from you at all.

I'm sorry we won't let you sell BS here. We will expose you as we have done it countless times.

Yes, youve done an admirable job proving I was wrong about the IRIs goal of destroying the US. I submitted facts and you submitted.... well, frankly, PR, you submitted nothing. Boy, I am impressed.

and yet your statements are drenched in bias and prejudice as exposed. You're trying to twist reality. It won't work that way.

LOL. Well, PR, I dont remember stating that I was unbiased. You really are precious. Of course Im biased, Ive made no pretense to the contrary. My statement as to the goal of the IRI, however, was an accurate factual statement. It is only your bias and prejudice that prevents you from admitting it.


We have had this discussion before: Iran's anti-Americanism is JUSTIFIED. It is the United States that made itself the enemy of Iran by interfering in the evolution of the country and by hampering democracy. To your demise, these are facts not your gibberish.

Fine, its justified. Why then are you arguing that my statement that it existed is false?

The IRI is weak in a sense that it cannot afford to seek to destory United States but it certainly is capable of defending itself.

Frankly, PR, we dont actually know how strong the IRI is militarily or whether it is or is not it is capable of defending itself. They may well be follows the Saddam Hussein model. I honestly dont know and neither do you.

You better worry about defening your own hollow statements as your pseudo-arguments lie hereabove in shambles.

LOL. Shambles? Nice try, PR.

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."

I know the above is not part of your discussion with me but I couldn't help myself laughing. In a way it explains a lot about your disfunctional mind. It surprises me how arrogant and conceited you religious bigots could be. I take it as an insult. I just want you to know that after this statement I look at you the same way I would look at a Mullah.

Well, Im glad Silent Cals words brought you pleasure. Im curious though as to why you find the words of a man that died in 1933 insulting? Do you think that Calvin Coolidge was referring to you? Frankly, I dont think he had you in mind, but as you think Im always wrong, I suppose I could be.

Well, believe it or not. I have tried but you have disappointed me repeatedly in the past. As you always end up in a repetitive vicious cycle. Repeating your previous statements over and over again when pushed to a corner claiming vicotry while you're boring the heck out of me

I am afraid, we are heading to the same direction again.


Yes, PR, you are truly an amazing intellect. You certainly make me look bad and get bored by my responses. I have to ask myself why I keep coming back time and time again to be humiliated by you. Care to analyze that that part of my dysfunctional mind?

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."


Calvin Coolidge


 
 

Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 9:01 AM 

Provost, honestly, you strike me as an intelligent being and as such, when you debate you have more or less waterproof arguments. That is why in debates such as this one, I will agree fully with you that the retoric coming out of Iran is US hostile, with or without taking translation into account. However the question here is this; Is it really enough with retorics in order to conclude that "one of Irans goals is the destruction of US". In my opinion it is not! In the case of Iran I would seperate the retoric coming out and the actual goals they have.
My take on the matter is that IRI main goal is:
1. To stay in Power!!!
That is the sole goal they have IMO. To achieve this goal they will take several measures:
2. Use retorics to fool the simpleminded. Mind you, anybody with the least insight in politics, understands that what IRI says and what IRI wants/has is totally different, e.g. We have developed Iranian S-300 by modifying S-200 (BS), we have developed our own fighter jet (BS), Iran is better of now then before the revolution (BS), we have freedom of speech (BS), IRI is democratic (BS) etc etc.
3. To make sure no outside power will challenge their position they will make sure that they can defend themselves. Here where all their toy development comes into the picture.
etc etc

.



.
[linked image]

 
 

WAFFer
(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 11:15 AM 

Provost, honestly, you strike me as an intelligent being and as such, when you debate you have more or less waterproof arguments.

Thank you, Sina. Im not really all that bright, but I do know logical argument and have a pretty good BS meter.

That is why in debates such as this one, I will agree fully with you that the retoric coming out of Iran is US hostile, with or without taking translation into account.

Thats been my conclusion.

However the question here is this; Is it really enough with retorics in order to conclude that "one of Irans goals is the destruction of US". In my opinion it is not! In the case of Iran I would seperate the retoric coming out and the actual goals they have.

Well, thats what Im trying to determine, ultimately. What you are saying, as I understand it, despite, their avowing to want the destruction of America, that it is simply rhetoric not the expression of their true intentions. That is certainly possible. My problem with that, however, Sina, is that history teaches me that often rhetoric expresses intention. Anyone who has read Mein Kampf for example could hardly be surprised at the path Hitlers Germany took. Likewise, anyone who listened to Osama bin Laden in the 1990's could really be surprised about September 11th.

I will admit I dont know whether the IRIs rhetoric is just rhetoric or whether it expresses their true desires and intentions. I have said before that Im been reading about Shia eschatology. If you read the religious related statements about the desire to clear the way for the coming of the Mahdi, with the belief that the IRIs nuclear program isnt simply civilian but has a military aspect to it, their statements might make reasonable people concerned.

My take on the matter is that IRI main goal is:
1. To stay in Power!!!
That is the sole goal they have IMO.


I am certain that you are correct that this is their main goal and it might even be the sole goal. That, however, raises the question as to why they think its so important that they retain power.


To achieve this goal they will take several measures:
2. Use retorics to fool the simpleminded. Mind you, anybody with the least insight in politics, understands that what IRI says and what IRI wants/has is totally different, e.g. We have developed Iranian S-300 by modifying S-200 (BS), we have developed our own fighter jet (BS), Iran is better of now then before the revolution (BS), we have freedom of speech (BS), IRI is democratic (BS) etc etc.


Here I can agree.
3. To make sure no outside power will challenge their position they will make sure that they can defend themselves. Here where all their toy development comes into the picture.
etc etc


Their real, as opposed to show, defense seems to be more directed at internal defense as opposed to external defense. Ill admit though it is very hard for Westerners to really know how the IRIs military would really function in the defense of Iran. Ive never questioned the courage of Iranians in defending their nation but it is very hard to know how effectively that courage can be harnessed to deal with external threats by the current leadership of the IRI.

"It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Without the sustaining influence of faith in a divine power we could have little faith in ourselves. We need to feel that behind us is intelligence and love. Doubters do not achieve; skeptics do not contribute; cynics do not create. Faith is the great motive power, and no man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is a part of an unending plan."


Calvin Coolidge


 
 

Hadi
(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 3:24 PM 

Sina jan, don't waste your time with this guy. He is a little more than a joke.
A real lawyer like myself can spot him as a fake a mile off; not to mention the fact that
lawyers simply do not have this much time to waste on forums to argue with little kids.

His opinions, just like his imaginary profession, really makes no difference to the real world. I'd suggest you do as I do, and just ignore him/her.


[linked image]

THE WORLD IS A BRIDGE, CROSS IT, BUT BUILD NO HOUSE UPON IT!
-------------------------------------------

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 
WAFFer
(Login ironmanx)
WAFFer

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 7:40 PM 

I have been saying that for a while now. Anyway,why do you have Hezbollah in your sig? I am the only Muslim Iranian on this forum...And a pretty sexy one at that as well.

 
 

0-Saif
(Login titanium100)
WAFFer

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 24 2010, 9:41 PM 


Handi why you change youre group name to Anusiya it sound little feminie. You should change to better name.


 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 25 2010, 8:34 AM 

More evasion of the issue. More personal animus. It's sad, really, that a person who claims two law degrees is so intellectually limited to completely eliminate any reasonable discussion of people with opposing views.

This isn't IMF, Hadi, where people who stand up and refute your bovine excrement are banned for your convenience. You want to ignore me, I'm fine with that. You're hardly a worthy debater anyway. Here your Hezbolli venom will be refuted every time. Good luck with your jihad, both greater and lesser. You need all the help you can get.

If I had permitted my failures, or what seemed to me at the time a lack of success, to discourage me I cannot see any way in which I would ever have made progress.
Calvin Coolidge

 
 


(Login raghfarm)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 25 2010, 11:17 AM 

LOL Papa... did I touch a raw nerve? You got a little touchy sweetheart.
What's the matter, a big time lawyer like you (LOL) should know better than to get so hot under the collar.

As for IMF... stopped posting there over a year ago. If you got banned from there, it's because even they can see you are a loser with nothing better to do than argue with kids over the internet, while pretending to be a lawyer! LOL


@ Irommax. No, there are plenty of Iranian Moslem here. They just cant be bothered to waste their lime arguing with little idiot kids.

@ Said. I never changed my group. I had voted for the Immortals years ago, but dont know who decided to change to this new one. Not that Id waste my time caring about these things.


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Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 25 2010, 11:53 AM 

Hadi jan, I do have conflicting views with provost, which can at times make me upset, to be frank. The reason is of course that we are so far away on a political scale. Having said that, one has to agree that he has great debating skills. And that is one of two reasons for why I lurk around WAFF; 1. update on world matters from different perspectives, 2. debate! Debating someone sharing the same mentality is quite boring.

@ Provost

Once again you have presented pretty good, well thought over and bullet proof arguments. Lets go through them point by point.

"Well, thats what Im trying to determine, ultimately. What you are saying, as I understand it, despite, their avowing to want the destruction of America, that it is simply rhetoric not the expression of their true intentions. That is certainly possible."

Yes this is my take on the matter.

"My problem with that, however, Sina, is that history teaches me that often rhetoric expresses intention. Anyone who has read Mein Kampf for example could hardly be surprised at the path Hitlers Germany took."

Actually I haven't read Mein Kampf (would you recommend it?), so I can't argue with you regarding the content of that book as a reference. However if the point you want to make is about the extermination of jews, I believe that there are two logical views on the matter:
1. Hitler had a desire to kill them to start with.
2. Hitler wanted to have full power in Germany, in all aspect. He also wanted a clean aryan race in Germany. By stripping jews economically and politically he could achieve his firs goal, however the second goal could only come true if the jews dissapeared. They tried with deportation as a first measure. When that didn't work, they tried with ghettos, which didn't work all that well either. So the next measure was to have them working as slaves basically. When food shortage struck Germany, guess who was struck first? When some got too tiered to work they started executing them. And when that became something which they did on a daily basis, extermination wasn't a far and scary concept anymore. Tragic, but I believe a highly likely.

Honestly I don't know if Hitler had computed the faith of the jews and had prepared a master plan, or if it was a "one thing leads to another" scenario. For the germans sake I hope it was alternative 2 which occured. In either case if we could conclude that it actually wasn't something that was planned and it happened because of a series incidents, then it leads us to the point which I want to make. If Iran wants to destroy the US, it will start taking measures leading to the goal. However, so far we have only heard and not seen any measures and as long as this is the case, I wouldn't bet that they will ever try.

"Likewise, anyone who listened to Osama bin Laden in the 1990's could really be surprised about September 11th."

Also a very good point and an interesting one for that matter. The Bin Ladens, is as far as I have understood, the next imporating clan, next to the Sauds. Osama, I believe, has a greated desire for money and power, than hate for the US. What he wants ultimately is to throw out the sauds (note not necessarily the americans) from SA. It is a power struggle. By putting pressure on the protectors, he hopes he can gain greater power in his homeland. Bin Laden was not the least religious before he went into politics, got blocked from the Sauds and figured that the only way he could put pressure on them was to create an army. Here is where hi started with his rethorics for the simpleminded And what kind rethorics work on the simpleminded in ME you ask? Well, put "will of Allah" into every sentece and you have majority support, you don't even have to have knowledge about islam, only claim you have. Anybody with half of brain knows that the jibberish coming out of Osamas mouth is just that, jibberish!


"I will admit I dont know whether the IRIs rhetoric is just rhetoric or whether it expresses their true desires and intentions. I have said before that Im been reading about Shia eschatology. If you read the religious related statements about the desire to clear the way for the coming of the Mahdi, with the belief that the IRIs nuclear program isnt simply civilian but has a military aspect to it, their statements might make reasonable people concerned. "

I am not following you on this one. If you please could elaborate, then I could comment on it. More specifically how Mahdis return is connected to the military nauture of their nuclear program.

"Their real, as opposed to show, defense seems to be more directed at internal defense as opposed to external defense. Ill admit though it is very hard for Westerners to really know how the IRIs military would really function in the defense of Iran. Ive never questioned the courage of Iranians in defending their nation but it is very hard to know how effectively that courage can be harnessed to deal with external threats by the current leadership of the IRI."

Agree!




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(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 26 2010, 7:28 AM 

LOL Papa... did I touch a raw nerve? You got a little touchy sweetheart.
What's the matter, a big time lawyer like you (LOL) should know better than to get so hot under the collar.


Yes, Hadi, I'm crushed. Fencing with you here is far too intimidating for me. LOL.

If I had permitted my failures, or what seemed to me at the time a lack of success, to discourage me I cannot see any way in which I would ever have made progress.
Calvin Coolidge

 
 


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 26 2010, 8:09 AM 

Yes this is my take on the matter.

You might well be right, Sina. I, frankly, hope you are.

Actually I haven't read Mein Kampf (would you recommend it?), so I can't argue with you regarding the content of that book as a reference. However if the point you want to make is about the extermination of jews, I believe that there are two logical views on the matter:
1. Hitler had a desire to kill them to start with.
2. Hitler wanted to have full power in Germany, in all aspect. He also wanted a clean aryan race in Germany. By stripping jews economically and politically he could achieve his firs goal, however the second goal could only come true if the jews dissapeared. They tried with deportation as a first measure. When that didn't work, they tried with ghettos, which didn't work all that well either. So the next measure was to have them working as slaves basically. When food shortage struck Germany, guess who was struck first? When some got too tiered to work they started executing them. And when that became something which they did on a daily basis, extermination wasn't a far and scary concept anymore. Tragic, but I believe a highly likely.


I read Mein Kampf while I was in college as part of a comparative ideologies class but havent read it in some years. I only mentioned it, not to lead to a substantive discussion of Nazi policies but to demonstrate that sometimes peoples rhetoric actually signals their intentions.

Honestly I don't know if Hitler had computed the faith of the jews and had prepared a master plan, or if it was a "one thing leads to another" scenario. For the germans sake I hope it was alternative 2 which occured. In either case if we could conclude that it actually wasn't something that was planned and it happened because of a series incidents, then it leads us to the point which I want to make.

Well, I wasnt going to recommend that you read it, but based upon these statements, you might find Mein Kampf very instructive. One cannot see the Final Solution as it was without knowing whats its architect intended.

If Iran wants to destroy the US, it will start taking measures leading to the goal. However, so far we have only heard and not seen any measures and as long as this is the case, I wouldn't bet that they will ever try.

Well, I guess that leads us back to interpreting current events. Some might view Irans nuclear program and its push to develop ballistic missiles as doing just that. It touting that its ballistic missiles are capable of hitting Europe and its continuing quest to develop ICBMs lend credence to the view that their nuclear program might not be as civilian as claimed.

Also a very good point and an interesting one for that matter. The Bin Ladens, is as far as I have understood, the next imporating clan, next to the Sauds. Osama, I believe, has a greated desire for money and power, than hate for the US. What he wants ultimately is to throw out the sauds (note not necessarily the americans) from SA. It is a power struggle. By putting pressure on the protectors, he hopes he can gain greater power in his homeland. Bin Laden was not the least religious before he went into politics, got blocked from the Sauds and figured that the only way he could put pressure on them was to create an army. Here is where hi started with his rethorics for the simpleminded And what kind rethorics work on the simpleminded in ME you ask? Well, put "will of Allah" into every sentece and you have majority support, you don't even have to have knowledge about islam, only claim you have. Anybody with half of brain knows that the jibberish coming out of Osamas mouth is just that, jibberish!

Im not in a position to argue about bin Ladens ultimate goals or his true religiosity. I freely admit my ignorance. The problem is that since the rise of al Qeada in the 1990's, he, and it, have proclaimed the right and duty to attack Americans anywhere and anytime. Since then there have been a series of attacks, purportedly carried out by al Qeada at bin Ladens direction doing just that. My point was that sometimes rhetoric isnt empty but really states exactly what the speaker seeks and intends.


I am not following you on this one. If you please could elaborate, then I could comment on it. More specifically how Mahdis return is connected to the military nauture of their nuclear program.

That wasnt very clear, my apologies. As I understand Shia eschatology, it is believed that the Mahdi will come to establish an earthly kingdom of justice and peace. That return is to be paved by the destruction of the Jews and Christians who refuse to accept Islam based upon Jesus coming at the Madhis side. This is, of course, a much simplified version but if it truly reflects ones belief then the development of nuclear weapons to be used to strike both Israel and the US, to pave the way for the Madhis coming makes perfect sense. In fact, the development and use of these weapons, regardless of the consequences, in such an ideology or belief structure makes perfect sense. If this were to be the ideology or mind set of the IRIs leaders, that would make the IRI a serious threat to the US, not because I believe they could, in fact, destroy the US, but because of the willingness to use nuclear weapons to spark a war that they believe would pave the way for extending their Islamic Republic throughout the world as a modern caliphate ruled by the Madhi.

Why this is viewed as so dangerous by those that believe it is the ideology of the IRIs leaders is that it makes nuclear exchange not only conceivable, but even desirable. Many think that the West triumphed over the Soviets because ultimately Soviet leaders were rational and did not desire to see the world destroyed. If, on the other hand, you are dealing with an ideology that sees the worlds destruction as a gateway to heaven on earth, one can never hope to dissuade them from developing nuclear weapons and having made them, from using them. This is the reason the IRI is viewed by some as such a threat to peace.

Again, I am just trying to educate myself and figure our what the truth really is. I appreciate your insights.

If I had permitted my failures, or what seemed to me at the time a lack of success, to discourage me I cannot see any way in which I would ever have made progress.
Calvin Coolidge

 
 

Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 26 2010, 9:45 AM 

"I read Mein Kampf while I was in college as part of a comparative ideologies class but havent read it in some years. I only mentioned it, not to lead to a substantive discussion of Nazi policies but to demonstrate that sometimes peoples rhetoric actually signals their intentions. "

Point taken!

"Well, I wasnt going to recommend that you read it, but based upon these statements, you might find Mein Kampf very instructive. One cannot see the Final Solution as it was without knowing whats its architect intended. "

I think I'll be looking into it someday.

"Im not in a position to argue about bin Ladens ultimate goals or his true religiosity. I freely admit my ignorance. The problem is that since the rise of al Qeada in the 1990's, he, and it, have proclaimed the right and duty to attack Americans anywhere and anytime. Since then there have been a series of attacks, purportedly carried out by al Qeada at bin Ladens direction doing just that. My point was that sometimes rhetoric isnt empty but really states exactly what the speaker seeks and intends. "

Your point is well taken. We should however note that in the case of Osama and talibans, their rethorics match their actions. This is true when it comes to killing americans, shia muslims and iranians alike. Also we should note that all three groups are strategic enemies to them and stand in their way to expand their power and influence in the region. My opinion is that they use religion in order to gain more power and not the other way around. However, I can't really prove it.


"Well, I guess that leads us back to interpreting current events. Some might view Irans nuclear program and its push to develop ballistic missiles as doing just that. It touting that its ballistic missiles are capable of hitting Europe and its continuing quest to develop ICBMs lend credence to the view that their nuclear program might not be as civilian as claimed. "

That could very well be the case. We can only speculate IMO.

"That wasnt very clear, my apologies. As I understand Shia eschatology, it is believed that the Mahdi will come to establish an earthly kingdom of justice and peace. That return is to be paved by the destruction of the Jews and Christians who refuse to accept Islam based upon Jesus coming at the Madhis side. This is, of course, a much simplified version but if it truly reflects ones belief then the development of nuclear weapons to be used to strike both Israel and the US, to pave the way for the Madhis coming makes perfect sense. In fact, the development and use of these weapons, regardless of the consequences, in such an ideology or belief structure makes perfect sense. If this were to be the ideology or mind set of the IRIs leaders, that would make the IRI a serious threat to the US, not because I believe they could, in fact, destroy the US, but because of the willingness to use nuclear weapons to spark a war that they believe would pave the way for extending their Islamic Republic throughout the world as a modern caliphate ruled by the Madhi. "


I was almost sure that this was the point that you wanted to make, but I wasn't certain. Yes, I have heard about this as well. It sounds crazy. Do they really believe that? How could we know? If we look at this matter from a historical point of view, we can see that some people have allways been convinced of another world besides this one and therefore been willing to put their own lives on stake. In modern times we have extreme believers who are even willing to blow themsleves up for the sake of their beliefs. However, those who talk about these scenarios, the likes of Khomeini, Khamenei, Ahmadinejad, Bin Laden, Urban II and all other european leaders from the middle ages for that matter, do/did they also believe in the fairytales they proclaimed or was it only a tool for them to achieve something else, namely power?

The pope Urban II has said the following:
"I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to pers­e all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it."

Compare this speach with Bin Ladens speaches, the resemblance is striking don't you think? Also the situation Europe was in at that time, is quite alike to the Middle East today. Europe was in a real bad shape, economically and socially, with immense internal wars and struggles. Middle East on the other hand was blooming in all aspects and was increasing its influence over Europe. Many historians believe that Urban II real intentions was to save a dying world and not as he procclaimed to kill all muslims.

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(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 27 2010, 7:43 AM 

Your point is well taken. We should however note that in the case of Osama and talibans, their rethorics match their actions. This is true when it comes to killing americans, shia muslims and iranians alike. Also we should note that all three groups are strategic enemies to them and stand in their way to expand their power and influence in the region. My opinion is that they use religion in order to gain more power and not the other way around. However, I can't really prove it.

Very true, Sina, al Qeada is as opposed to the IRI and Shias in general as they are to anyone else. I tend to agree with your assessment of the depth of their religious belief.

That could very well be the case. We can only speculate IMO.

Yes, none of us know.

I was almost sure that this was the point that you wanted to make, but I wasn't certain. Yes, I have heard about this as well. It sounds crazy. Do they really believe that? How could we know?

Yes, very crazy. Also true, we dont know, we simply know what they say.

If we look at this matter from a historical point of view, we can see that some people have allways been convinced of another world besides this one and therefore been willing to put their own lives on stake. In modern times we have extreme believers who are even willing to blow themsleves up for the sake of their beliefs. However, those who talk about these scenarios, the likes of Khomeini, Khamenei, Ahmadinejad, Bin Laden, Urban II and all other european leaders from the middle ages for that matter, do/did they also believe in the fairytales they proclaimed or was it only a tool for them to achieve something else, namely power?

There is no way to know.

Compare this speach with Bin Ladens speaches, the resemblance is striking don't you think? Also the situation Europe was in at that time, is quite alike to the Middle East today. Europe was in a real bad shape, economically and socially, with immense internal wars and struggles. Middle East on the other hand was blooming in all aspects and was increasing its influence over Europe. Many historians believe that Urban II real intentions was to save a dying world and not as he procclaimed to kill all muslims.

They are similar, yes. You might be right about Urbans intentions. Urban, however, almost 1000 years ago, so Im not sure that I agree with your analogy of Europe circa 1095 with the Middle East circa 2010. Maybe you could flesh that out for me.

Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. It may not be difficult to store up in the mind a vast quantity of face within a comparatively short time, but the ability to form judgments requires the severe discipline of hard work and the tempering heat of experience and maturity.
Calvin Coolidge

 
 

Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 28 2010, 9:29 AM 

"They are similar, yes. You might be right about Urbans intentions. Urban, however, almost 1000 years ago, so Im not sure that I agree with your analogy of Europe circa 1095 with the Middle East circa 2010. Maybe you could flesh that out for me."

I apologize for not being specific. My intentions was to give an analogy between Middle East supremacy over Europe during the dark ages and Europes supremacy over Middle East in modern times.
What we can observe today is that Europe and the West has been dominating in every field over Middle East, be it science or trade. Also there has been immense colonization or puppet regime intallments in that region by western powers. That the west controls much of middle east today is a fact which one cannot dismiss. Moreover, the great difference in living standards cannot be dismissed either. That a great majority of muslims live in poverty and missery is a bitter reality for the inhabitants of the region. It is this bitternes in the population which the likes of Bin Laden use as fuel in order to serve their interests. You can be rest assured that if the people of Middle East would have been content with their lives, they would disregard extremist rethorics.
There are voices of extremism in Europe and the west as well, however because of the fact that the majority is content, only a few which live in missery invite this kind of rethorics, more specifically fascist and nazist groups, outsiders which are not content with their lives.
However if we look back to the Middle Ages the situation in Europe was much different and people in general weren't pleased with theur lives. After the fall of the Roman empire the social structure fell to pieces and the economies of regions went back to the times before the Roman empire. Pax romana was no more and war and struggkes devestated Europe. This coincided with the expansion of the Islamic empire in the East. There is no question that all for scientific research and development accured in the East during this time. The trade which was so vital during the Roman empire, now exclusively belonged to the new empire in east. By conolizing northern Africa, southern Italy and spain, the Islamic empire now controlled the entire mediterranean, what the Romans called mare nostrum "our ocean". These where all himulateíng defeats for former lords of the world and the bitternes rose in poor and nobles alike, just as we can witness in the Islamic world today.

Basically this is the analogy I wanted to make. Based on this historic observation I conclude that rethorics designed for a population in pain and missery, hides the real intentions of those in power.

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(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 29 2010, 12:33 PM 

I can see your analogy, Sina, and can't dispute it. The difference though, I suppose, lies in the possibility of those who feel oppressed and dispossessed resorting to the use of nuclear weapons to assuage those feelings. I honestly don't know how rational the leaders of the IRI are, but I hope they're rational enough to see that devastation would be wrought on a much wider scale than simply Israel if they decided that nuclear weapons are a way to rid themselves of the "cancer" in the MidEast. Once the nukes start flying it will be had to stop them and wide swaths of the area will be uninhabitable for years.

Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. It may not be difficult to store up in the mind a vast quantity of face within a comparatively short time, but the ability to form judgments requires the severe discipline of hard work and the tempering heat of experience and maturity.
Calvin Coolidge

 
 

Sina
(Login SINA-1)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: Iran put some of its radars on display

November 29 2010, 3:04 PM 

"I can see your analogy, Sina, and can't dispute it. The difference though, I suppose, lies in the possibility of those who feel oppressed and dispossessed resorting to the use of nuclear weapons to assuage those feelings."

I believe that only in time of total desperation any country would think about using mass destruction weapon, just as Saddam did to stop the Iranian invasion, and not when he first tried to conquer Abadan.

"I honestly don't know how rational the leaders of the IRI are, but I hope they're rational enough to see that devastation would be wrought on a much wider scale than simply Israel if they decided that nuclear weapons are a way to rid themselves of the "cancer" in the MidEast."

I hope they are rational enough as well. Hopefully they will become even more rational soon enough to understand that Iran only has a few natural allies in the region, namely; Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Israel. I am convinced that the homogen arab sunni countries want nothing less than to destroy/weaken the mentioned states though these countries threaten their aspiration for region dominance.

"Once the nukes start flying it will be had to stop them and wide swaths of the area will be uninhabitable for years."

Let us also hope that the "worried" countries do not take any pre-emptive meassures to calm their nerves. "A person often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." Jean de La Fontaine

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