Russia's Phantom Fleet Buildup
June 1, 2008: The Russian Navy's shipbuilding plans are still mostly plans. For the last seventeen years, most of their construction effort went into finishing a few subs, and building for export. Currently building are three SSBNs (the new Borei class, for which the missile is not quite ready yet), one new SSN (attack sub, that has been building for 15 years now), and one new Amur conventional sub, with two more building. There is a new class of 4,500 ton frigates (the Gorshkov class), but only one is under construction and won't be finished for another two years. The Gorshkov's have a 130mm gun, plus anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles. The navy wants at least a dozen of these 4,500 ton ships, but the money has not been provided yet.
There is one Stereguschyy class corvette in service, with three more building. These are small ships (2,100 tons displacement), costing about $125 million each. These "Project 20380" ships have impressive armament (two 30mm anti-missile cannon, one 100mm cannon, eight anti-ship missiles, six anti-submarine missiles, two eight cell anti-missile missile launchers). There is a helicopter platform, but the ship is not designed to carry one regularly. Crew size, of one hundred officers and sailors, is achieved by a large degree of automation. The ship also carries air search and navigation radars. It can cruise 6,500 kilometers on one load of fuel. Normally, the ship would stay out 7-10 days at a time, unless it received replenishment at sea. Like the American LCS, the Russian ship is meant for coastal operations. The navy wants at least fifty of them.
There is also an amphibious ship under construction, and lots of talk about aircraft carriers. But until money is allocated, and construction starts, it's all just talk.
Meanwhile, the fleet is a collection of aging Cold War ships. This includes about a dozen SSBNs, two dozen SSN. (nuclear attack subs) and about fifty diesel-electric boats. There's one aircraft carrier, five cruisers, 17 destroyers, eleven frigates and about fifty corvettes. There are about twenty amphibious ships still in service. All these Cold War era ships suffered from years of neglect during the 1990s, and many are not in the best of shape.
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
If you look at what the UK government is saying about ship building and what has actually happened you can see how easily an impression of a paper fleet can arise. I think that the Russians ARE gearing up, but that it is a slow process that is talked about a lot before anything is done.
When are Russia and us(USA) ever going to realize that our best interests are in being allies soon. We are both to small to keep pace with China or later on India and China when they both have 1,000,000,000+ people. We are both established powers with similar populations and similar industries, and militarily we are a perfect fit. And there is a lot of oil in Siberia, and China needs a lot of oil. Russia is good with SAMs and we are good with Carriers. Russia is good with Ship-to-ship missiles and we are good with ship Air-defense systems. In a few years when Russia's economy is ~6 trillion dollars and all the "ZOMFG COMMIES!" people are dead we should be allies. Arctic ocean= private lake(and with a roof), a tunnel under the Bering Strait would be only 2x as long as the Chunnel, etc., etc. Its a natural fit except for the problem we hate each others guts. That could wear off in 20 years or so if our leaders tried to eliminate it.
USA needs no allies it just needs to mind its business regarding middle east, georgia, tibet etc... then the whole world can be one big peace loving spinning ball...
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Oh, yeah, because there are no groups of crazy people who would do things like, i don't know, crash planes into our buildings? And I'm not talking about for the middle east, I am talking about in 20-40 years when China and (maybe) India will have passed us as world powers.
''And I'm not talking about for the middle east, I am talking about in 20-40 years when China and (maybe) India will have passed us as world powers''
indians r still struggling to get atleast one decent sewage system and ur worried about them
china still maybe growing at high percent rate e.g. 11%, but 11% growth for china equals 1% growth for USA...
and as for crazy ppl blwouing up twin towers, it was ur own leaders...the eidence is there, why do u choose to ignore it...1/3 of americans agree alqaeda had nothign to do with 9/11
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where is the proof that alqaeda did it...show us, the FBI as of yet has not confirmed who commited the 9/11 attack, this is FACT...bin laden is a nut in a cave, he was one of ur ex agents that spends his time clipping his toe nails and sending out vids of himself...he cant run a bath let alone such an elabrate attack on USA
which sounds more credible...
a nut in a cave in afghanistan carried out americas most severe attack on home soil
or it was a ploy by ur own leaders to get greater powers over u and make $$$ out of useless wars...
wats making u slow down is fighting in the quick sand that is iraq...it costs ur economy 1 trillion dollars...not to mention the high irse in oil prices as a result of the war...chinesse r laugh in their HQ looking at usa drowning in iraq...economically it is hell for u to fight that iraq war...
STUPID MOVE iraq was stable, no threat, no extremeists, now its a drain on ur resources and a new hq and recruitment centre for alqaeda...
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This message has been edited by swed680 on Jun 3, 2008 2:19 AM
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To be honest this is a democracy and majority rules...so if only 1/3 people believe that our government would do this then 2/3 people don't and... majority rules. Oh, and 1/3 Iranians support the US occupation of Iraq. Just thought I'd let you know. Which sounds more credible:
A country that hates the US actively planning to harm it or...
A country that hates the US with a madman as its head just being nice
If people like me keep worrying about our country and making and acting on plans to fix it then we might never fall behind. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you...
And BTW, Iraq was a total cock-up, and there weren't WMDs there, but try looking at your type of argument from my view. Maybe it wasn't Al Queada, but the government of Iran who carried out the attacks...
hi swed80,
FA/18 camouflage colours belong to which nation ?
camo scheme looks like uae f16 block 60 version.any chance 2 aircrafts belonging
to same country.
Well, PG, I’ll be happy to tell you. (I am, by the way, sipping PG Tips, in iced form, as we speak.)
I have no doubt that the Russians are seeking to revitalize their fleets after a decade and a half of neglect. I believe they’ll make significant progress and make a respectable fleet. To do so, they are going to have to spend a boatload (pardon the pun) of money. With oil prices where they are, there is no better time for them to do so than now.
If you look at what the UK government is saying about ship building and what has actually happened you can see how easily an impression of a paper fleet can arise. I think that the Russians ARE gearing up, but that it is a slow process that is talked about a lot before anything is done.
I agree. We’ll just have to see how much of this is just talk and how much is serious. Our Russian contingent here have delusions of grandeur, but I do think you’ll see the Russians begin putting out new ships and refitting old ones, but they will never again rival the Soviet numbers.
Provost
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
Who is delusional? Our navy is still the 2nd most powerful in the World, even with all the neglect, the SSN/SSBN fleet alone could take care of pretty much every fleet in Europe.
Also, I doubt the U.S would like to see their most strongest and trusted ally attacked.
Also, there would be a big build up of arms if war was imminent. Russia doesnt have the economy (nor does the Uk) to hurt each other. (other than nukes)
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 3, 2008 6:13 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 3, 2008 6:11 PM
I'm glad to see, Filin, you knew who I meant when I said delusional. Maybe there's hope for you yet.
Provost
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
When there are only 2 of us here I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right. When you have 1 Oscar with enough ASMs to take out most fleets by itself I dont see what your argument is, in the words of the other Russian here, the surface fleet can go to pieces as long as there are nuclear subs.
Er, filin, you do realize that most ships have missiles specifically devoted to taking out other missiles. While 1 Oscar could theoretically take down a fleet, it would probably do nothing with that few missiles. And your fleet is not in the best of shapes... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Navy#The_Modern_Russian_Navy
"As of 2006, The Russian Navy has 50 nuclear submarines, compared to 170 vessels in 1991, but only 26 of them are operational." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_navy#Fleet_composition
Looks like the British have 13 subs...which go to sea to train much more.
John Doe, you have to understand Filin. He genuinely believes that Russian nee Soviet missiles are 100% effective and that their weapons are invincible. Talking to him about any of them is like talking to a stump.
Provost
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
And you, Provost, have to understand that "John Doe" is a wikipedia warrior who doesnt seem to be able to read the specs very well, even off a site like the wiki.
Humor me, what would the Type 42 destroyer or Type 23 use to take out Granits? The destroyers have Phalanx, frigates have 32 Sea Wolf, Ill give them a week before the fleet is at the bottom of the ocean.
As I recall, Filin, the RN has a nuclear attack sub or two. How do these Russian surface units get in range to use their invincible missiles? As I recall the RAF may want to have a say, as well.
Provost
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
John Doe, you have to understand Filin. He genuinely believes that Russian nee Soviet missiles are 100% effective and that their weapons are invincible. Talking to him about any of them is like talking to a stump.
No, stumps rot eventually.
He would sooner agree with someone who agrees with him on faith alone than someone who disagrees with him and cites Wikipedia. He also seems to be under representing Wikipedia's use as a portal for more thorough and reliable sources.
Im afraid filin is right ( allthough its very rare that he is right ) , Russian navy is still capable of taking care of the UK navy given they are not under british air cover , its quite simple the UK surface fleet sucks , seriusly , it would get destroyed with ease with TU-22M3 and Tu-142 combination , the ruskies don't even need to use a surface fleet except kuznetsov for protecting the air the only good thing I see is their sub fleet and it is overpowered 2 vs 1 and then there is the whole russian surface fleet left with ASW , they are better trained the british but they are uncapable of going head on vs Russian fleet , Russian fleet was designed to sink US carrier groups afterall.
However after UK will receive some Astutes , Type 45 and the new CVF the situation will change.
Who the hell are you and where is YOUR credibility? I suggest growing some balls and learning to read first before making a fool of yourself with wikipedia articles that are more often than not wrong. At least a few years back people always cited FAS, now its only wiki, which is edited by kids like you.
Russia needs only ASW and our subs to make an artificial reef out of an entire UK fleet. Our tiny Alfa had more punch than your Trafalgar.
Dreamer Filin, dreamer. Russia can not sink the entire UK navy. stupid as it sounds.Wait till the 2 new super carriers come in plus other items im not listing. Plus the UK isnt stupid, they would stay with air cover as much
as possible.
Also considering the UK's size it is quite amazing to have such a large military, for its size.
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 4, 2008 3:20 AM
Don't even listen to filin he is a big moron , he has prooven that 1000 times over and over , just ignore him seriusly , anyway I though we are talking about fleet vs fleet in open ocean without air cover , in that case I state again that the Russians still have a lot of regiments of Tu-22M3 Backfires which make a huge difference , but again when the UK gets some Type 45 and the 2 new carriers and astutes the situation will change given that things remain as they are in the russian fleet.
Filin, you can't "own" yourself, let alone anyone else. The Russian Navy is left over Soviet ships with questionable maintenance and upgrades. We don't eve know that when the button is pushed these vaunted missiles would even leave their cells.
Provost
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929
Russias military is a shadow of its former self. Russia wont be touching a real power for a long long time. Filit, you got owned in this thread my son. What with past stuff like in 1940's Russia could have taken the U.S lol or was that the other russian poster?
Sorry but EU is ten folds richer than Russia and more advanced. Trust me, I sleep well at night.
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 4, 2008 4:13 PM
The Yanks may belittle it (comparing with their huge navy) but the Russian Navy is actually one of the largest in the world, with a huge nuclear ICBM launching capability.
The Russians had the know-how to build space rockets, space stations and space shuttles before 1991; things which other European countries (even today) couldn't achieve by themselves.
The current "international" space station is a proof of the Russian success in this field.
theres a song called that you know LMAO. Trance style. Suits you perfectly.
Russias finished mate get over it. You only have nukes to your name. other than that enjoy your 200 dollar month salary in some crummy tower block that many Russians get to enjoy lol.
Economy
6 United Kingdom 2,137,421
7 Russia 2,087,815
For russias size and population thats awful.
As for the big dogs.
World 64,903,263
—1 European Union 14,712,369
2 United States 13,843,825
This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 4, 2008 5:40 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 4, 2008 5:39 PM This message has been edited by Empirestrikesback on Jun 4, 2008 5:38 PM
^ That ranking will change within maximum 2 years, thanks also to the rise in oil prices.
Oil production has reached its peak. From now on, there will be more demand, less availability, skyrocketing prices, until a new technology is found and adopted worldwide.
That will mean the end of revenues for Bush and gang, so don't expect it to happen too soon.
''hi swed80,
FA/18 camouflage colours belong to which nation ?
camo scheme looks like uae f16 block 60 version.any chance 2 aircrafts belonging
to same country.
many thanks''
i believe they r both kuwaiti airforce
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the EU is not a country. This notion that the French and the Polish are somehow this one interested group working as one is downright laughable. Russia signs one treaty with France and another with Poland. You people dont even have the same foreign policy let alone a common military. Additionally, the very fact that you all have to unite to try to challenge the real great powers says all that needs to be said about your individual nations.
Russia's GDP has gone from 500 billion to 2 trillion in a decade....
lol, these braniacs dont understand that USSR used force and puppet governments to keep the republics at bay. Thats why it worked for so long, EU has virtually nothing in common, and at any sign of actual conflict it will split in different factions. It has been at war since there were enough men to stand up and fight, human nature doesn't change.
You ever hear the expression russification? Thats how we spread the influence and created loyalty, which is still there in the older population. EU isnt doing that, Id love to see the Brits impose the culture on the French and see how well they take it.
lol, these braniacs dont understand that USSR used force and puppet governments to keep the republics at bay. Thats why it worked for so long, EU has virtually nothing in common, and at any sign of actual conflict it will split in different factions.
Too bad there isn't any military alliance betwen most European country's right? Oh wait .... there is .. NATO.
This message has been edited by 5thGuards on Jun 5, 2008 2:31 PM
When we just passed the brits in PPP, only your staggering economy looks bleak.
If your going to site a source at least understand that those are forecasts, Russian nominal is not 1.7t, probably between 1.4 and 1.5 trillion. I posted the IMF link a while back, and what it forecasts is that Russian nominal will rise by 150% in the next 5 years. If thats bleak than UK economic forecast is sh1t with some more sh1t on top of it.
Let go of the past filin. British empire is over too, we aint bothered as some ppl here think we do. Apart from a boosted ego and national pride we dont really benefit from it.
Russia is certanly growing Healty,,,but the question here is if its going to remain so in 5 years.
especialy since Eu and USA have masive scientific desire to becomme independand from foreign Gas
and oil imports...And thats was the Cheaf Russian export eavn in the Soviet era...about 70% of
its total export at the hight of former USSR was Gas and Oil...rest was mostly Military hardware.
I personaly place Russian economy equal to French in the Future...thats my opionion...its vary dificult to forsee Russian economy...as it was dificult in the past....
let me put it to you this way, every Russian my age and Filins age in America now is seriously contemplating moving back, that is how good the economy. I work for a Fortune 500 that is seeing 30+% year over year sales growth in the CIS while sales in the US are growing at 1.7%. We are currently in the process of firing 500 Americans and hiring nearly as many people in the CIS.
Careful which CIS people you hire, my industry got sick and tired of dealing with the visa mess so they almost stopped hiring from abroad. Moscow right now has an amazing job market, especially if you have a degree from a Western University. With a few years of experience and a good knowledge of Russian you can easily start out at 50k a year.
let's see russia's phantom navy with their phantom airforce and phantom army with their aging and outdated equipment .... no wonder the russians are seen as a phantom superpower
let's see russia's phantom navy with their phantom airforce and phantom army with their aging and outdated equipment .... no wonder the russians are seen as a phantom superpower
You are a idiot.
How old is abrams , how old is B-52 , how old is ticonderoga , how old is alreigh burke , how old is nimitz ....
What a idiot , the US equipment is some older and some younger so I guess the world's only superpower that is far ahead of everybody has outdated old useless equipment right? What a moron..
the thing is the yanks are always upgrading their hardware ... where the russians hardware just rusts and decays .... much like Russia the country
How old is the airframe and how old is the upgrades on Tu-22 or Tu-95 , or Tu-160 electronics by that matter? It seems you have no clue what your talking about. How old are upgrades on armor? They have upgraded several T-72 with extence protection since the 2nd chechen war , how old are BMD and BTR? They are new or fresh updated , how old are artillery , oh wait Smerch is not old at all and better than anything yanks have , how old is Kirov oh wait it was updated or beeing updated with new anti ship missiles and S-400 navalized versions , how old are Akula? oh wait they were upgraded to Akula II ... just drop it , you are a moron , period.
