I seen this clip of some bragging albanians and i was wondering what kind of army do they have?
And will it even stand against the serbian army?
Does anyone here have some information about the albanian army?
They have no chance against Serbia.Eavn tho Serbia has becomme weeker because of the prevous Wars and sanctions.But they are recovering.Serbia still has at least operational Mig29,s!And
modernised T84,s wich is bether than T-72!
Eventhough i am chechen and muslim i want the serbians to crush the albanians and bosnians.
they are bunch of no good american arse kissers togheter with the lousy turks.
The mujahedins from arabic countries come to safe their skinny asses from extermination and what do they do in return? They send soldiers in iraq and afghanistan.
I hope Serbia crushes these clowns. I was just wondering what kind of army albania had because they act hard but they are weak. The Migs29 and T84s are enough to crush them.
Some serbians might hate islam and muslims. But i wanna say to serbs that bosnians and albanians are hardly muslims. If they destroy your churches or burn them its not the fault of other muslims or islam.
They just leave the mosques for decoration or something dont even look at them and still have the nerve to build mosques. And i hate it when mosques have to be in the middle of the struggle because during war alot of mosques got destroyed also.
I just would like serbs to crush these pests and try to move the mosques without breaking them down.
Saudi funds could easily bring these mosques to places like bengladesh or indonesia where true muslims can be found.
And the bosnians and albanians will remain crushed
hmmm, and your telling me that the arabs don't bum chum the Americans??????
LMFAO
Look, during ww1 the arabs were under our rule, we were supplying the arabs with gold, etc untill the arabs betrayed the ottomans who were innocent muslims. Could you imagine, muslims betraying muslims?
Look, our goverment is a pussy hole but our population dies, crys, shouts and fights for islam!
@ Kavkaz bros the actions of the government don't allows reflect the stance of the people. Most european countries Muslim or not didn't favour the Iraq war. However US pressure is just to much to bare for most countries. food for thought. Don't follow blind hate. Which countries allocated land, air and naval bases to the Americans. Muslim countries.
I should tone down maybe. But bosnians and albanians arent muslims.
Pakistan which is an american ally refused to fight the afghans. Alot of pakistani soldiers just dropped their rifles.
Islam isnt a religion that you just can turn off and on whenever you feel like it. Albanians and bosnians have the Luxury to act muslim when they feel like it and act western when its needed.
Also during the Communism time which albania was under alot of albanians took communism in with open arms. And now that those times are over and america is leading they open their arms towards americans.
Also during yugoslavia headscarfs were illegal and people were torn away from their religion.
And suddenly when the balkan wars happend they decided to pick up their religion just like that.
This isnt acceptable sorry. They arent muslims
brother like most muslims, we seem to have a unconstructive and ineffective ways of tackling our problems. Which stems from one lack of understanding of the issues and secondly a blinding zeal to defend islam and Muslims. bosnians werenever traitors. If you understand Bosnian historry you will realise that there two types of bosnians. The pro - Muslims / mujahideen types. Then there are the pro-communist / partisans type. One group favoured the breakaway of Bosnia from Yugoslavia the other until this day is adament that muslims should have remained with the serbs as a federation and curse the day Ali Izabegovic was born.
Ofcourse now Ali Izabegovic is dead now so the hand that held Bosnia on its path is gone. When the US demanded for the removal of foreign arab fighters from Bosnia he refused to ascede to their demands (to my knowledge of what was happening). Now depends on what type you come across will determine your view on the folks. However Bosnian more then Ablians have a greater inclination towards Islam due to what was done to them.
But the problem comes here is. What do those Muslims in BoH do to oppose an outside influence to reduce the beliefs they were butchered and died for? suicide bombings, targeted assinations ? No. The picture is much harder to describe. But what your saying is a generalisation. BoH never threw away Islam after the war. External elements are trying to drain Islam out.
This message has been edited by Markus85 on Sep 20, 2008 3:08 PM
What makes bosnians and albanians not true muslims is that first of all their countries contribute little or nothing to islam. The albanians are busy being pro american and bosnia doing the same on some degree. Bosnia and Albania are countries that merely have opportunities for muslims to express themselfs in the islam. And the ones who dont follow the religion at all may be that way. And by that i mean that alot of people just do whatever they want and have no religion attached to their lives. So i ask here,whats the difference between bosnia and albania with the rest of europe especially the west that muslims build mosques and pray whenever they feel like it? There is no difference at all. So you cant say bosnians and albanians are muslims its oxymoron. Just like western europe bosnia and albania have a somewhat muslim population.
If these peoples are to weak to even demand islamic values they completely lose their muslim status.
Islam for muslims isnt a race that you are born muslim and do nothing. You cant call yourself muslims while drinking alcohol consuming pork and have pre marriage sex. This isnt Israel where being jew is nationality.
Islam is completely different and there is no such thing as muslims by ''race''
Albanians often say albanian religion is albanianism and the muslim albanians do everything opposite a muslim should do.
Now some bosnians may be religiouse and do everything according the book so to speak,but these are minor cases so not even worth to bother.
Bosnians and Albanians arent muslims period.
we chechens are living with russians for centuries now and we never give up the fight against russians and we always believe in islam and we are true muslims.
Same could be said to other muslims around the world like kashmir indonesia malaysia. Even poor east asian muslims take the time to come to mecca and spending their money on the trip. Bosnians and Albanians are nothing compared to these people. Like i said you cant be muslims whenever you feel like it. there is no such thing.
"Now some bosnians may be religiouse and do everything according the book so to speak,but these are minor cases so not even worth to bother. "
Fistly Salam Brother. You are right there is many anti-islamic elements in Bosnia, but you need to relise Bosnia is not a country of just muslims(bosniaks), but also of serbs and croats. Our aim was never to genocide there people, but to create freedom for our peoples. Also the bosnian trops in iraq are not armed forces to fight or kill anyone there- they are a de-mining specialist division, because we have become experts in this field due to the war in Bosnia. There mission is to demine unexploded bombs,ordanance and mines so that Iraqi civilians such as children who play are not killed. This was one of the prerequesists of the Bosniak side (SDA party) that this will be at Iraq goverments invetation and of a humanitarian nature.
You are right about albanians and albanianism religion. I have seen it in some forums, some of them are mocking Islam.It really annoys me as well, especially considering how many good aalims, beys and other notable people they had in the ottoman empire.
You are wrong about Bosnia though. How many Bosnians do you know? It really depends also where they are from, where i am from just in one village of 600 people there are 52 hafiz. Eastern Bosnia generally tends to be more conservative and yes these commies piss me off as well, but i can tell you they are no more then 10-15% as their party never gets more votes then that.
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"Bosnians and Albanians arent muslims period".
You have no idea of Islam in Bosnia do you? It would have been so easy for muslims to pack their bags and leave for Turkey like millions did, but Islam in Bosnia has survived against all odds and under genocides.
Also mujehadeen werent just arabs. Most of those mujhedin units were composed of local bosnians.Like in my town, there wasn't a single arab. Do you think that the few hundred arab volunteers actually had any impact on the outcome of the war ? LOL they just ruined our image, we needed weapons not people. Our army always had more people willing to defend our country and islam with it then we had weapons. The only reason genocide occured is because we are muslim.
Don't make stupid generalisations- it would be like me saying all turks are kemalist pork eating leftist. I don't know of any muslims who eat pork, although many do drink like you said, just like in turkey and Chechnya as well. It would be like me saying every person in chechnya is like Alu Dadashevich Alkhanov.
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"we chechens are living with russians for centuries now and we never give up the fight against russians and we always believe in islam and we are true muslims.Same could be said to other muslims around the world like kashmir indonesia malaysia. Even poor east asian muslims take the time to come to mecca and spending their money on the trip. Bosnians and Albanians are nothing compared to these people. Like i said you cant be muslims whenever you feel like it. there is no such thing."
Do you have any idea how many Bosnians go to Mecca. Bosnia probably has the highest number of people going (from the 1.8-2 million muslims) go then any other country per capita. Bosnian amputees going to Mecca straight after the war:
Well if you are so great why don't you have your own country then? Also you do know that Allah and his prophet (saws) strictly forbid us judging other muslims. There is a difference between muslim and mukhmeen, you know that right? One of the prophet hadith goes similar along those lines of those who you expected to be in heaven might be in hell and vice versa....Allah knows best! Start by looking at yourself first and being the best muslim you can be before pointing your fingers at others!
Also one more thing some Muslim countries damaged and are responsible for killings of muslims more so then some western countries who also helped on the way by imposing an arms embargo so that we couldnt buy any weapons.
An example is Saddam's regime which was sending oil illegally to serbia for its tanks and fighter jets to bomb us. Thank you so much ummah. The only countries that helped in this order- Iran, Turkey and Pakistan. I don't blame them, they weren't in a good position.
Also in regards to Arab Wahabism.. although some minority bosnians follow it.. It will NEVER be accepted in Bosnia.
"The Saudi government’s obliteration of al-Ajyad is only the latest in a deplorable history of destroying architectural treasures from Ottoman period. Numerous Ottoman houses, cemeteries, castles and fortresses have been sacrificed ".. everything is shirk for them. There is no logic- we all have to sit on floor like prophet and grow beared. Then why do you drive a car dumbie?
We will not accept someone trying to impose their ways on us. We are sunni hanifi and trust me Islam in Bosnia is stronger then ever. You only need to come Djuma and Terawih to see, last year when i was there the mosques around sarajevo centre were full.
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Adil was born in 1921 in Eastern Bosnia in a town along the Drina River, and raised in the ancestral family seat or 'kula' (fortress). In the 16th Century the Ottoman Sultans bestowed feudal estates to the military aristocracy, and Adil notes "most of my ancestors died on the battlefield and not in bed". He adds, "Bosnia always held a special place in the Turkish empire. The Sultan was recognized only as the spiritual leader, and Bosnia was ruled by ajans, Bosnian notables and their councils, while the military governors assigned to Bosnia from Istanbul were placed under considerable restrictions. There is one example from the time when the seat of these governors was Travnik. The governor was not allowed to stay more than two days in Sarajevo, which was the capital city and the trading centre, in case he had the opportunity to misuse his position and influence. Governors could not, as in other parts of the empire, grant ownership of state property or give the right for it to be used, neither could they pronounce the verdicts in court cases".
Adil's account sheds new light on the deliberate impoverishment of the Muslim elite, first under Austro-Hungarian rule and then the agrarian reforms of 1919. The former arose from the Congress of Berlin in 1878, when in the wake of the Russo-Turkish war the European powers took over Ottoman provinces including Bosnia and Bulgaria. He writes, "Turkey accepted the occupation of Bosnia-Hercegovina by Austria-Hungary and appealed to the population to accept it as well and surrender without resistance; it asked for the army to withdraw peacefully and for the police to surrenderďż˝ the Bosnian Muslims were alone in offering resistance to the occupation - the Austrians thought that they would enter Bosnia to the sound of a military march. However, they met with highly organised and well-armed resistance. Bosnian detachments that did not have any Turkish soldiers were formed very quickly. The people in Bosnia had arms because under Turkuy they had the right to bear arms, and the kapetanijas (hereditary chief of a territorial area) and different fortresses had cannons which were placed along the border to resist the occupation. Austria-Hungary had to send three times more invasion units than anticipated, they had to employ great strategists and generals and fight major battles in order to occupy Bosnia. In spite of everything Semsekadic routed them twice".
There was however a heavy price to pay for the defiance, "In Turkish Bosnia-Hercegovina before the Austro-Hungarian occupation there were around 800,000 Muslims and 600,000 Orthodox but after the occupation over 250,000 Muslims moved to Turkey. Then the Serbs became the majority. The free peasants in Bosnia were primarily Muslims who, along with the begs and agas, owned more than three-quarters of the land...
It is a miracle that muslims still exist in Bosnia to what they have been through the last 100 years. After the Berlin Congress Bosnia lost most of its intellectual elite, aghas ,beys, doctors preety much to Turkey. Elhamdulillah!
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 22, 2008 5:09 PM
Indeed,bosnia is also populated by croats and serbians thats exactly my point. There is nothing islamic about that. What remains from the ''muslims'' if you have these people living with you also add the numbers of non religiouse people and the percentage of ''muslims'' is so small it means nothing. Many Bosnians and Albanians also say ''this is not arabia'' and with this sentance you just can read the ignoracy of their minds which has no connection with being good muslims. If this is not arabia why even bother trying to be muslims? If you think you can live side to side with non muslims what kind of country will it be in the future. I dont see islam playing a role in it thats for sure. Its just one big meltpot of everything. And its fine by me i dont mind but as a 'critic' i have to give my opinion about it.
Also now that Bosnia and Albania have closer ties with the Americans their ties with other muslims become zero. This means there will be more tensions and also more hatred.
What do you think the muslim world thinks about Albanians and Bosnians being stationed in iraq and afghanistan? It doesnt matter what they are doing there its a form of aggression. Bosnia and Albania are just way to much pushed towards nationalism. Albania is a country for christianity and islam and so is Bosnia,which means that religion doesnt matter and what your nationality is what matters. So having a muslim minority means nothing i am sorry. Like i said whats the difference between albania and bosnia compared with western european countries? I think even Britian and france have a higher number of devout muslims.
If you people dont have the guts to stand for muslims only and majority country than sorry you people arent muslims. End of story. I am not trying to be insulting but i am just stating hardcore facts you cant deny.
And for us chechens to form our own country is very impossible because we are against a country that is 1000x bigger than us. Speaking about landwise we chechens are south russians. Countries like Armenia,azerbaijan,georgia are not inside russian territory. So we have to live with the russians eventhough
the fighting never ever stops.
Also we chechens arent lured into the sins of clubs alcohol drinking and even selling pork in our areas. You cant say that about your country. We chechens always fought for 1. Islam and second comes having our own country. For you bosnians having a country was above all,i mean how can you people call yourselfs muslims anyway seriously. The US backed country of yours gives me the creeps down my spine. Not in a million years are you people muslims. Look at all the Non islamic attachments on your country. Even negative american mentality of mujahedin and jihad is taken over by bosnians and albanians. You all think that Mujahedins are fanatics. How can they be fanatics when most of the times they are fighting against the ones who hurt them.
And i am sure 98% muslims agree with me on this one. I dont think any good muslim would just accept the nature of your existance and being called islamic is dispicable. Just because Bosnians favour Turks over croats on the Eurocup doesnt make you muslims.
My 2 cents.
Take it how you want it.
"Indeed,bosnia is also populated by croats and serbians thats exactly my point. There is nothing islamic about that. What remains from the ''muslims'' if you have these people living with you also add the numbers of non religiouse people and the percentage of ''muslims'' is so small it means nothing. Many Bosnians and Albanians also say ''this is not arabia'' and with this sentance you just can read the ignoracy of their minds which has no connection with being good muslims. If this is not arabia why even bother trying to be muslims? If you think you can live side to side with non muslims what kind of country will it be in the future. I dont see islam playing a role in it thats for sure. Its just one big meltpot of everything. And its fine by me i dont mind but as a 'critic' i have to give my opinion about it. "
So what do you propose that we genocide all these Serbs and Croats. This is not our way, this is not the way of the prophet pbuh- "if you kill one innocent person it is like you have killed the entire humanity" (5:32).
We have not shown any mercy to serbian terrorist soldiers that is right, but killing innocent women and children is not acceptable, for that would have made us no better then them.
I think your idea on Bosnian Muslims is some 15 year old western raised kids. I can tell you in my immediate circle of friends i know 1 guy who does not fast or pray this ramadan.
Religion is a crucial badge of self-identity for Bosnian Muslims, more so then almost any other nation in the universe. Bosnia's capital Sarajevo has 186 mosques...everyday you can hear beautiful Ezan left and right. There is also 2x big churches and synangong and that is what makes Bosnia unique.Can you have that freedom in Chechnya? Without Islam there is no Bosnia. Albania is a different story.
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"Also now that Bosnia and Albania have closer ties with the Americans their ties with other muslims become zero. This means there will be more tensions and also more hatred.
What do you think the muslim world thinks about Albanians and Bosnians being stationed in iraq and afghanistan? It doesnt matter what they are doing there its a form of aggression. Bosnia and Albania are just way to much pushed towards nationalism. Albania is a country for christianity and islam and so is Bosnia,which means that religion doesnt matter and what your nationality is what matters. So having a muslim minority means nothing i am sorry. Like i said whats the difference between albania and bosnia compared with western european countries? I think even Britian and france have a higher number of devout muslims.
If you people dont have the guts to stand for muslims only and majority country than sorry you people arent muslims. End of story. I am not trying to be insulting but i am just stating hardcore facts you cant deny."
You are a tool. 36 soldiers clearing unexploded ordinance and ammunition... does that not benefit the iraqi people more then just you blaberring on the net. No Bosnian identity is largely based on Islam and Islamic value, just like chechnya.
Also in that clip why don't those chechen girls wear hijab? estakvirullah
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"And for us chechens to form our own country is very impossible because we are against a country that is 1000x bigger than us. Speaking about landwise we chechens are south russians. Countries like Armenia,azerbaijan,georgia are not inside russian territory. So we have to live with the russians eventhough
the fighting never ever stops. "
lol something you just accused me off. Do you think that most bosnians , serb and croats want to live with each other- they are forced to.
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"Also we chechens arent lured into the sins of clubs alcohol drinking and even selling pork in our areas. You cant say that about your country. We chechens always fought for 1. Islam and second comes having our own country. For you bosnians having a country was above all,i mean how can you people call yourselfs muslims anyway seriously. The US backed country of yours gives me the creeps down my spine. Not in a million years are you people muslims. Look at all the Non islamic attachments on your country. Even negative american mentality of mujahedin and jihad is taken over by bosnians and albanians. You all think that Mujahedins are fanatics. How can they be fanatics when most of the times they are fighting against the ones who hurt them. "
Nor are we. No bosnian i know eats pork. its not even an option on Bosnian airlines or in the Bosnian Parliament, something the serbs and cros complain about but they cant really do anything about. US backed LOL- 90% of muslim countries are US backed under your logic, but you must be in an illusion if you think the people love the US here. I mean like i said compared to europe Us deserves some credit, while EU placed an embargo on us and we had very limited arms that the US helped smuggle in as well, so that million + people dont die.
No i understand mujahedin i have no problem with them. It is their forceful ways of wahabism that is concerning.
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"And i am sure 98% muslims agree with me on this one. I dont think any good muslim would just accept the nature of your existance and being called islamic is dispicable. Just because Bosnians favour Turks over croats on the Eurocup doesnt make you muslims. "
You are a troll you have no idea of Bosnia or Islam in Bosnia like i said. where does your knowladge come from? How many Bosnians do you know in real life? Like i said with albanians i agree with you 100%.
Start with yourself. how many namaz do you pray every day? how many days did u fast this ramadan?
Answer this- How many Bosnian Muslims do you know or have ever known?
Im sick of these keyboard warriors. what have you done for the ummah? I can assure you that in my close family there is more hafizs then in your whole town.
Do you also know the difference between muslim and mukmin? from what you wrote it seems you don't.
Salam
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 22, 2008 7:45 PM
@Bosniain lillie, i personally know 3 brothers who went to fight in bosinia, they werent wahabi or extremeist, infact the eldest brother used to go partying, after he grew up and saw what was happening in basnia he went, when i asked him why, he just said that he really couldnt tell me logically, he just said that he felt an overwhelming sense of duty... to this day he talks about crazy war stories, the differant factions, and how he saw mujahedeen from as far away as Nigeria and Phillipines fighting on the front lines...
i swear ppl talk about freakin mental disorders after war, this guy doesnt hav any (if he does then he hides it very well, i alwys see him laughing down at the sheesha cafes, watching football etc..), and the guy was shot twice in his thigh and lower abdomin.
Just a story i thought i would share, i told the guy to sell his story to aljazeera, but he said the only reward he wants is somthing that only Allah can give him...
This message has been edited by swed680 on Sep 23, 2008 12:37 AM
I gladly join. Everything better than the kuffars from bosnia and albania.
What happend to the dagestani member by the way?
The unit of 49 bosnian soldiers will be deployed in Baghdad to provide security in the US Military Camp Victory. If this isnt arse kissing i dont know.
We all should focus on places like indonesia,kashmir,somalia for muslims.
The kuffars from albania and bosnia are not worth talking.
And swed its sad that people you know fell into US operation called 'bosnia freedom'.
they just wanted to crush the pro russian serbs and control the area it had nothing to do with religiouse reasons. So they used the religion card and fooled alot of people. Its sad.
Well now the eyes are open and muslims all around the world are against the kuffars.
These bosnians have clubs and pubs on this side and mosques on the other. They are mocking mosques and islam in general.
If you know bosnians in real life you will know what i mean also.
They are bunch of kuffars dont be fooled.
bro take it easy on the the "kuffars". The majority of non-muslims are not and do not think like George Bush and Dick Cheney. You may have some bad experiences from the russian side of things. However don't let that taint your image.
Well, I wrote about Bosnia & Herzegovina few times and I have all rights to do so because I live in Belgrade just 200 km from Muslim part of Bosnia (Bosna in Serbo-Croat language which we all use here in former Yugoslavia except Slovenia, Macedonia-a little bit different and Kosovo Albanians). There are no Bosnians, maybe they are citizens of Bosnia but there are only Serbs, Croats and islamized Croats and Serbs, populary known as Bosnians. Most of the Turks left this area long time ago, just a few left in Bosna, south of Serbia and FYROM. There are muslims, as you probably know, in part of Serbia called Sandzak, but not so meny as in Bosna.
So talking about killings in previous wars here is talking about brother killing brother, unfortunately we were divided here mostly by religions and crazy Balkan minds.
About Albania, I think our friend Illiria can confirm, most of population accepted Christianity (mostly Catholiks, small part Orthodox) and the rest are Muslims.
The problem on Kosovo is not religion, because Kosovo Albanians are mostly muslims, but different ethnic origins. As a proof, a lot of members of other muslim groups, like Gorani, Turks and islamized Serbs are not accepted by Kos. Albanians but stand the same as Serbian Orthodox.
I also have several muslim friends here in Serbia and in Montenegro also...
Your denial of the Bosnian nation is downright ludecrious. Bosnia had its independent kingdom before Islam, which was seperate of Serbia and of Croatia, just because the people there were majority catholic does not make them Croatian or Serbian. Your religion does not determine your national identity. The name Bosna is of illyrian heritage and was used even in Roman times.
The Byzantine writer, John Cinnamus, describing the military expedition of Emmanuel Comnenus which had taken place in 1153. had this to say about Bosnia: "Bosnia is entirely independent; her people have their own way of living and she governs herself". You need to understand Bosnia and BOSNJANINS (bosnians) are older then Islam and Ottomans. However, we are also very proud of our religion.
Also just because Bosnian kings married some serbian queens and croat ones...does not make them serbs. This was very common in europe to gain land and territory. The "bosniks" of serbia have nothing to do with Bosnia or the Bosnian Kingdom. They only bare the name Bosnian (bosniak) due to the same culture they have with us today....
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Here is a little bit more on the serbian and croat expansionist movements in the 1800's and turning catholic Bosnians into croats and orthodox Bosnians into serbs
Kako je živio u 19. vijeku za vrijeme srpskih i hrvatskih nacionalnih pokreta, koji su vršili jak pritisak na Bošnjake Ivan Frano Jukić je 1848. godine objavio i sljedeći tekst: "Mi Bošnjaci njekad slavni narod sad jedva da smo živi nas samo kao očenutu glavu od stabla slavjanskog gledaju priatelji naukah i žale nas.... Vrime je da se i probudimo od dugovične nemarnosti; dajte pehar, te carpite iz studenca pomnje mudrost, i nauk; nastojte da najpred naša serca očistimo od predsudah, fatajmo za knjige i časopise, vidimo što su drugi uradili, te i mi ista sredstva poprimimo, da naš narod prosti iz tminah neznanstva na svitlost isitne izvedmo."
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It was evidently deliberate policy on the part of the Ottomans to fill up territory which had been depopulated, either by war or by plague. There are signs in the earliest defters (Turkish tax records) of groups of Christian herdsman, identifiable as Vlachs, being settled in devasted areas of eastern Hercegovinia.
In the defters of the 1470s and 1480s they can be seen spreading into central and north-central Bosnia, in the regions round Visoko and Maglaj: soon after 1476, for example, roughly 800 Vlach families were settled in the Maglaj district, accompanied by two Orthodox priests. The number of Vlachs in north-central and north-east Bosnia continued to grow over the next fifty years, and they began to spread into north-west Bosnia too.
Calling these people serb or slav is funny, when the 'serbs' of bosnia are the least slavic of all people there. Hence it is a crack up when i hear a russian politician talk about defending their slav brothers in Bosnia.
As early as 1530, when the Habsburg official Benedict Kuripe?ic travelled through Bosnia, he was able to report that the country was inhabited by three peoples, One was the Turks, who ruled "with great tyranny" over the Christians. Another was "the old BOSNIANS, who are of the Roman Catholic faith." And the third were "Serbs, who call themselves Vlachs . . . They came from Smederovo and Belgrade." So important was the Vlach element in the creation of this Bosnian Orthodox population that, three centuries later, the term "Vlach" was still being used in Bosnia to mean "member of the Orthodox Church."
I don't see croat or serb here. Turk was used by westerners for any muslim of the ottoman empire. However, the word for bosnian muslims in the ottoman empire was- Bosnjak and for old Bosnians- Bosnjanin...
chechnian brother why did you not answer any of the questions i asked you? you just keep blabering the same things over and over again.
The prophet Muhammed warned us about Muslims who would try to destroy Islam from within,and you are an example of that by calling me and my people kuffar. how many bosnians do you know? Also if we are pretending to be muslim haha don't you think it would be easier just to say we are christian and thus not to have to face war every 20-30 years and die in the name of our faith and be killed due to our religion??
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You also do know that the prophet (saws) had non-muslim neighbours and that god commands us how to treat our neighbours- muslim or non-muslim.
If your neighbors are Muslim and relatives, then they have three rights on you: the right of the neighbor, the right of kin, and the right of the co-religionist. If they are non-Muslim and relatives, then two rights are due to them: that of neighbor and kin. And if they are non-Muslims outside of the family, you owe them the right of the neighbor only. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says what means, (And serve Allah. Ascribe no thing as partner unto Him. (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and into the neighbor who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbor who is not of kin and the fellow traveler…) (An-Nisaa’ 4:34 )
If i am saying something wrong feel free to correct me please. also please answer my questions i have already asked you before
swed680 its good to hear such storey massalah. Like i said i have no problem with any religion, not even wahhabism. What concerns me is the vilonce against even muslim and the FORCE upon other muslims that is not acceptable. When i hear westerners say Islam is not peace... Islam never claims to be peace- Islam teaches you that if someone hits you, you hit him back even harder in defense, now that is my kind of religion.
.I read the quran and do my best to be the best i can be- don't drink, haven't touched alcohol for 2 years. My grandad for example drinked with his serb neighbours and others , but prayed 5 times a day and fasted every ramadan. He grew up in communism, but a generation before that or even in villages that would be unacceptable and they would have probably kicked you out.Even niqab was very common in Bosnia before it was banned by the communist.i remember my grandma telling me how much her mother cried when they were forced to take it off...
Anyway, if you think that your typical Bosnian is pro-us then you must have half a brain. Most bosnians know it is the west that imposed an arms embargo on us and forced us to fight with light arms against virtually the third largest army in europe that had large amount of artillery, t84 t62 t55 tanks and an inexhaustable supply of ammunition and weapons at their disposal. In my village for example for every seven-eight people they had one hunting rifle or pistols, so they used to take pans and bang them while yelling Allahu Ekbar...not many people had automatic rifles unless they captured them, at least where im form. This yelling and noise obviously made the serbs guarding their positions scared into thinking that there is few hundreds of troops storming their positions. Just one story of many.
Well Lilly,
can you explain please what is the origin of so called Bosnians?
Before Slavs came in this region there were Kelts (Celticks) and Ilirians, some remains of Romans etc. Since we all use the smae language, we all look alike I don't see any difference and I 've never met Bosnian chatolic or orthodox. We all have Slavic origin and before Islam was brought here by Turks we were all Christians.
I will answer you all eventhough you kinda write in chaos and its hard to keep track of.
Fistly Salam Brother. You are right there is many anti-islamic elements in Bosnia, but you need to relise Bosnia is not a country of just muslims(bosniaks), but also of serbs and croats. Our aim was never to genocide there people, but to create freedom for our peoples. Also the bosnian trops in iraq are not armed forces to fight or kill anyone there- they are a de-mining specialist division, because we have become experts in this field due to the war in Bosnia. There mission is to demine unexploded bombs,ordanance and mines so that Iraqi civilians such as children who play are not killed. This was one of the prerequesists of the Bosniak side (SDA party) that this will be at Iraq goverments invetation and of a humanitarian nature
Ofcourse there are MANY anti islamic elements in Bosnia,you said it. Also if croats have own country and serbians only you people are to weak to demand muslim only country and like i said Britian has more islamic elemants inside the country visible. And Bosnian forces have a unit of 49 who help guarding the american camp victory. So that means killing. So dont act innocent.
You are right about albanians and albanianism religion. I have seen it in some forums, some of them are mocking Islam.It really annoys me as well, especially considering how many good aalims, beys and other notable people they had in the ottoman empire
yes same for bosnians. Many bosnians mock islam also what your trying to prove by only being negative about albania? Your in the same boat.
You are wrong about Bosnia though. How many Bosnians do you know? It really depends also where they are from, where i am from just in one village of 600 people there are 52 hafiz. Eastern Bosnia generally tends to be more conservative and yes these commies piss me off as well, but i can tell you they are no more then 10-15% as their party never gets more votes then that
I know enough bosnian kuffars literally kuffars. Ofcourse i know the nature of your people how else you think i came to judge. In bosnia you have serbs and croats and also some room for non religiouse ones. Oh man you call that islamic?
You have no idea of Islam in Bosnia do you? It would have been so easy for muslims to pack their bags and leave for Turkey like millions did, but Islam in Bosnia has survived against all odds and under genocides
Yes i have. Islam has also survived in estonia...whats your point?
Also mujehadeen werent just arabs. Most of those mujhedin units were composed of local bosnians.Like in my town, there wasn't a single arab. Do you think that the few hundred arab volunteers actually had any impact on the outcome of the war ? LOL they just ruined our image, we needed weapons not people. Our army always had more people willing to defend our country and islam with it then we had weapons. The only reason genocide occured is because we are muslim
Your bosnian soldiers were not even worthy to be MUJAHEDINS. Your soldiers couldnt even pray properly and when the arabic mujahedins came some bosnian units mixed into them were the only ones learning namaz. The rest of your ''mujahedins'' didnt even know 1 simple phrase in the quran. Oh yes,you people are so devout muslims.
Don't make stupid generalisations- it would be like me saying all turks are kemalist pork eating leftist. I don't know of any muslims who eat pork, although many do drink like you said, just like in turkey and Chechnya as well. It would be like me saying every person in chechnya is like Alu Dadashevich Alkhanov
Leave turkey out of this. Even if some are kemalists 99% of all turks are muslims. That cant be said about Bosnians. And pretty much all chechens are muslims. Some maybe be less active in the islam but nevertheless muslims.
Do you have any idea how many Bosnians go to Mecca. Bosnia probably has the highest number of people going (from the 1.8-2 million muslims) go then any other country per capita. Bosnian amputees going to Mecca straight after the war:
i highly doubt those amputees are going to mecca straight after the war thats higly unlikely. Especially without providing any kind of source. No bosnians go to mecca. none,zero,nada.
Also one more thing some Muslim countries damaged and are responsible for killings of muslims more so then some western countries who also helped on the way by imposing an arms embargo so that we couldnt buy any weapons
An example is Saddam's regime which was sending oil illegally to serbia for its tanks and fighter jets to bomb us. Thank you so much ummah. The only countries that helped in this order- Iran, Turkey and Pakistan. I don't blame them, they weren't in a good position
Saddam didnt didnt see you as muslims. He even killed kurds so he would surely not care for bosnians. Also the man was beaten when he was young,he had any serial killer sympthons. And the worse thing was that he became president. Of the right wing pro arab party country called iraq.
We will not accept someone trying to impose their ways on us. We are sunni hanifi and trust me Islam in Bosnia is stronger then ever. You only need to come Djuma and Terawih to see, last year when i was there the mosques around sarajevo centre were full
No you are not muslims. And so isnt bosnia. And so what if sarajevo's mosques are full. Every mosque is full even in places like Mexico.
So what do you propose that we genocide all these Serbs and Croats. This is not our way, this is not the way of the prophet pbuh- "if you kill one innocent person it is like you have killed the entire humanity" (5:32).
We have not shown any mercy to serbian terrorist soldiers that is right, but killing innocent women and children is not acceptable, for that would have made us no better then them
Last time i heard Croatians and Serbians drove out other people so why cant you? It doesnt have to be genocide. Even slovenia drove out some of its serb civilians.
And i frankly dont care because if your people couldnt even pray when the arab mujahedins came your no muslims.
I think your idea on Bosnian Muslims is some 15 year old western raised kids. I can tell you in my immediate circle of friends i know 1 guy who does not fast or pray this ramadan
I only knew 1 ''muslim'' girl from sandzak. And i also heard she lost her virginity at age of 14. And she was among the hardline ''religiouse'' ones. pathetic.
Religion is a crucial badge of self-identity for Bosnian Muslims, more so then almost any other nation in the universe. Bosnia's capital Sarajevo has 186 mosques...everyday you can hear beautiful Ezan left and right. There is also 2x big churches and synangong and that is what makes Bosnia unique.Can you have that freedom in Chechnya? Without Islam there is no Bosnia. Albania is a different story
Please quit mentioning your kuffar capital with night clubs and pubs. So what if Bosnian muslims feel differently from serbs or croats. Does that make you a muslim? you think just because your different you are muslims just like that?
No Bosnian identity is largely based on Islam and Islamic value, just like chechnya
haha you wish. Seriously,you wish.
Nor are we. No bosnian i know eats pork. its not even an option on Bosnian airlines or in the Bosnian Parliament, something the serbs and cros complain about but they cant really do anything about. US backed LOL- 90% of muslim countries are US backed under your logic, but you must be in an illusion if you think the people love the US here. I mean like i said compared to europe Us deserves some credit, while EU placed an embargo on us and we had very limited arms that the US helped smuggle in as well, so that million + people dont die.
No i understand mujahedin i have no problem with them. It is their forceful ways of wahabism that is concerning
What does this have to do with bosnia? And do i care what bosnians eat? NO. but do they eat pork? Most properly yes!
The US backs pakistan also but the pakistanis arent kuffars. Get the difference? You ever seen a pakistani club owner? A pakistani bouncer? A pakistani pub owner? A pakistani pimp? I dont think so.
You are a troll you have no idea of Bosnia or Islam in Bosnia like i said. where does your knowladge come from? How many Bosnians do you know in real life? Like i said with albanians i agree with you 100%.
Start with yourself. how many namaz do you pray every day? how many days did u fast this ramadan?
Answer this- How many Bosnian Muslims do you know or have ever known?
Albania like i said is same like bosnia. Its no difference. And you already asked me if i know bosnians and yes i know. And dont worry about me you cant doubt me not being muslims NOR my people.
Im sick of these keyboard warriors
Like i care.
chechnian brother why did you not answer any of the questions i asked you? you just keep blabering the same things over and over again
Well i just did.
The prophet Muhammed warned us about Muslims who would try to destroy Islam from within,and you are an example of that by calling me and my people kuffar. how many bosnians do you know? Also if we are pretending to be muslim haha don't you think it would be easier just to say we are christian and thus not to have to face war every 20-30 years and die in the name of our faith and be killed due to our religion??
If you look at bosnia you will see how many are destroying islam from within LOL! your hypocrit. And once again you asked how many bosnians i know,god is that the only thing you can say? i know enough.
You people are certainly pretending to be muslims. Like i said when the arabic mujahedins came you bosnians couldnt even PRAY and never seen a quran in your life befor.
Bosnians cant be even christians,you people are pagans. No religion suits the commi pagans.
You also do know that the prophet (saws) had non-muslim neighbours and that god commands us how to treat our neighbours- muslim or non-muslim
Please dont involve the prophet. For our arguement is about bosnia and the kuffars inside your country. And i am not just flaming its just the fact. You cant say bosnians arent kuffars because if you look around you people are just haram.
end of story period.
Ofcourse there are MANY anti islamic elements in Bosnia,you said it. Also if croats have own country and serbians only you people are to weak to demand muslim only country and like i said Britian has more islamic elemants inside the country visible. And Bosnian forces have a unit of 49 who help guarding the american camp victory. So that means killing. So dont act innocent
Guarding the American camp? They are not soldiers to fight or kill, but to demine bombs and unactivated mines so that children and innocent people don't die. 99% of Bosnians don't support iraqi occupation, but who asks them?
LOL@Britain comment. Well in numbers maybe there is 2 million Muslims in Bosnia, Britain 1.5 mil. However, Britian is not a muslim country. How many people in britain will you see great each other with Selam? How many ezans will you hear? You have very little knowladge of Bosnia or Islam in Bosnia
Also don't be naive Europe DOES NOT like muslims okey. that is why they are banning building of further mosques and limiting muslims in europe. "They continue to face discrimination and disadvantage: Bangladeshis and Pakistanis together have a long-term unemployment rate nearly three times greater than people of West Indian descent."
In those countries if you wear hijab you are discriminated against and can't find work. Don't be a naive kid.
Bosnia is probably the closest to Lebannon, which has a large christian population and where the constitution discriminates against muslims and is undemocratic, just like in Bosnia.
yes same for bosnians. Many bosnians mock islam also what your trying to prove by only being negative about albania?<
This is true for any muslim or any country where leftists god-hating people exist. I was very disgusted at this turk girl mocking islam in a clip posted here. ill tell you now even the not very religious Bosnians are still culturally muslim. as in they will pray eid and they know who the enemies of Islam are.
Find me one site were Bosniaks (BORN MUSLIMS) bag islam? I can definatly tell you its much less then albania or turke
know enough bosnian kuffars literally kuffars. Ofcourse i know the nature of your people how else you think i came to judge. In bosnia you have serbs and croats and also some room for non religiouse ones. Oh man you call that islamic?
Dumbie. when did i say Bosnia is an islamic country. there is 51% Bosniaks and 40% Muslims in Bosnia according to CIA data. However, you cant compare these idiot westernized teenagers to Bosnians in Bosnia man.
"On 2006-02-08, Muslims in Sarajevo organized a protest against the cartoons. They delivered a letter demanding an apology for the publication of the cartoons to staff at the Danish, Norweigian and French embassies. The flags of Norway, Denmark and Croatia were burnt"... Bloody bosnian Kuffars hahaa
================ "Yes i have. Islam has also survived in estonia...whats your point? "
Yes but how will people look at you if you are muslim in Estonia. Bosnia is the ONLY country that is muslim in Europe today and which faught of crusade after crusade even after Turkey betrayed Bosnia and "signed it off".
Your bosnian soldiers were not even worthy to be MUJAHEDINS. Your soldiers couldnt even pray properly and when the arabic mujahedins came some bosnian units mixed into them were the only ones learning namaz.
You know that the communist did discriminate against Bosniaks and Islam, but i can tell you that everyone in my family for example knows how to read quran. I already told you just how many hafiz there is in my village. do you know what a hafiz is? Also we don't pray like wahhabis that is true for some of the, praying Tarawih is haram. In Bosnia 20 rekats is common and in most of muslim world.
Leave turkey out of this. Even if some are kemalists 99% of all turks are muslims. That cant be said about Bosnians. And pretty much all chechens are muslims. Some maybe be less active in the islam but nevertheless muslims.
same as bosnia. there is no nationalism in Islam man. I have told you even non-religious Bosniaks are still muslim. There is a difference between muslim and mukhmeen though.
i highly doubt those amputees are going to mecca straight after the war thats higly unlikely. Especially without providing any kind of source. No bosnians go to mecca. none,zero,nada
HAHAHAHAHHAH pure comedy. ahahaha hahaaabaababa cracker
Look at the website where the pic is from and you will see its Bosnians going to mecca. i just found it through google. anyway here
KUN0068 4 GEN 0288 FRANCE /AFP -HVD9 REL-BOSNIA-HAJJ Bosnia holds farewell ceremonies for this seanson's Hajj pilgrims SARAJEVO, Dec 22 (KUNA) -- Sarajevo's major mosques hosted on Thursday farewell ceremonies for pilgrims heading to the Holy Lands in Saudi Arabia, with the participation of Bosnian officials, students, and local people. The farewell ceremonies started when pilgrims' caravans departed from the far southern Bosnian city of Mostar towards the northern Brcko city on the borders. Hundreds of Bosnian pilgrims stopped by four cities during their trip from Mostar to Brcko. They were scheduled to leave Bosnian territories to the sacred lands after performing the Eisha prayer on the borders tonight. The pilgrims, in thier eight-day trip, will be crossing Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria and Jordan before finally reaching the Saudi territories. Head of the Bosnian institution for Hajj (pilgrimage) organization, Nusret Abdi Begovic, told KUNA that half of this year's 640 Bosnian pilgrims were relatively young people. He, however, said that there were 20 of the Bosnian pilgrims who exceeded 70 years of age, including an 81 years old man, who insisted that he was in good shape and ready to perform Hajj. Begovic expected the Bosnian caravan to join other pilgrims from the Balkan in the Turkish city of Istanbul on Saturday, where they will hold a one-day joint camp before completing their trip to Saudi Arabia. He also expected pilgrims from the Balkan to number about 10,000 at this year's Hajj season. Half of them will travel by land, while the others will be traveling by planes, he said. Bosnian pilgrims, scheduled to travel for Hajj by air, will be leaving on December 28, he added
hahaah just one travel agency group 640 people by car, most people go to hajj by airplane. You are funny man though , people in the 1940's were from my family were going to hajj when communism was established... why wouldn't they go now, when its easier then ever?
See this is the problems with muslims, you question me as if i lied to you. However, if i was a kafir you would probably just believe me....
Your soldiers couldnt even pray properly and when the arabic mujahedins came some bosnian units mixed into them were the only ones learning namaz. The rest of your ''mujahedins'' didnt even know 1 simple phrase in the quran
hahaaha This i had to respond to, Wallahi this is to funny. im starting to think your a serb or something...
Yes you said mosques are full in other european cities, but how many cities in Europe have 186 mosques like Sarajevo? This is no example of deen (Iman), but is my point- that Britain would never allow true freedom of religion or religious expression for muslims.That prejudice still exists. I have told you before Europe does not like muslims.
"In another question on freedom of speech, Bosnian Grand Mufti Ceric strongly criticized the European attitude and stressed that as a survivor of an attempted genocide he was very surprised to see people who still did not understand that Europe needs mutual respect. “Insults to the Prophet Mohammed will not decrease the love and affection of Muslims toward their prophet but will break many hearts all over the world. Europe should learn and respect that we, Muslims in Europe, are not ghosts but hosts.”
bosnian mujahedeen a Muslim division iz Zenica of the Army of Bosnia and Hercegovina.Are these arab mujahedin? no.
What do you think we dont know how to pray and we were taught in 1992? haha this comment is so retarded it is funny man.
Most Bosnians graduate from the Madresa in Sarajevo,Tuzla or the other many medresas and most also finish post-graduate islamic studies at Al-Azhar University. This has been going on for hundreds of years since the end of the Ottoman empire and even during communism, even though they did try to supress it.
Even our president Haris Silajdic speaks fluent Arabic and he has no formal education in arabic or theology man. Please stop defamin my people and slandering.. you 15 year old chechen kid. OK?
Here is a bit of a documentary of the Bosnian Grand Mufti for example if you need to learn a bit:
This BBC and idiots piss me off why they don't take the pictures from Bosnia and the Balkans some 60-70 years ago .. everywhere the women there wear Niqab. Although you might be fooled by this media, Islam is nothing new to us, but the newcommers are those communists, secularists, gays, leftists,nationalists and other mad ideas
and also dont worry i can easily defame you starting with Chechen Mercineries fighting FOR Russia in the recent gerorgian-russian conflict.Moving on to Milana Bakhaeva- Milana very Islamic name haha
it is very easy, but why would i encourage hate amongst the ummah rather then be the best muslim i can and try help others.
Well Lilly,
can you explain please what is the origin of so called Bosnians?
Bosniaks(Bosnians) are of Illyrian-Slavic genetics. I recommend books Francine Friedman , Noel Malcom and others for Bosnian history and serbian denial of the Bosnian nation in the last 200 years. Bosnjanins existed before Islam.
The earliest Bosnian "name" was the historical term "Bošnjanin" (Latin: Bosniensis), which signified any inhabitant of the medieval Bosnian kingdom. By the early days of Ottoman rule, the word had been replaced by "Bosniak" (Bošnjak). No consensus exists as to whether the word Bosniak emerged as a Turkified variation of the old Slavic Bošnjanin or as a local linguistic progression where the suffix "-iak" replaced the traditional "-anin". The Bosniaks derive their ethnic name from Bosona (Bosnia), which has been proposed to have an Illyrian origin.[31] [32]
For the duration of Ottoman rule, the word Bosniak came to refer to all inhabitants of Bosnia; Turkish terms such as "Bosniak-milleti", "Bosniak-kavmi", and "Bosniak-taifesi", were used in the Empire to describe Bosnians in an ethnic or "tribal" sense. However, the concept of nationhood was foreign to the Ottomans at that time - not to mention the idea that Muslims and Christians of some military province could foster any common sur-confessional sense of identity.
In the ottoman empire you were- muslim or Christian. however the word Bosniak was used to refer to Bosnians, while Bosnjanin for Bosnian old christians.
It is obvious that why you want to deny our nation for it is part of your expansionist idea of Greater Serbia and encompassing all orthodox population. I have told you and given you historic evidence of Italian popes stating that the orthodox population of Bosnia referred to themselves as 'vlasi'.
Oxford English Dictionary, of "1836 Penny Cycl. V. 231/1 stays that the word...Bosniak- The inhabitants of Bosnia are composed of Bosniaks, a race of Sclavonian origin. It makes no mention of serb or croat. bosniak/bosnian of all relgions.
----------------------
Before Slavs came in this region there were Kelts (Celticks) and Ilirians, some remains of Romans etc. Since we all use the smae language, we all look alike I don't see any difference and I 've never met Bosnian chatolic or orthodox. We all have Slavic origin and before Islam was brought here by Turks we were all Christians.
Sorry but majority of Serbs are not slavs nor are Bosniaks or Croats. In 2005 various South European medical schools and institutions specializing in human genetics did an analysis of the variation at 28 Y-chromosome markers among a sample of males from throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, relatively equally split among all three major ethnic groups. This is PRE-SLAVIC Balkan native genetic halogroup.
Ironically the slavic halogroup was most common amongst Bosniaks and Croats.
'but nevertheless their 'genetic roots' are a mixture of Slav settlers and descendants of pre-Slavic indigenous Balkan peoples, mainly of Illyrian tribes. [28][29]. For example, anthropologist John J. Wilkes regards Bosniaks (and Bosnians in general) as a possible descendant of the Illyrians and places Bosnia as once the centre of the Illyrian kingdom".
Im sorry please look at your typical serbs today you will see they are NOT slavic, although slavic influances can be seen. The majority of serbs have pre-slavic genetics native to balkans. Most serbs have black hair, brown eyes and are relitavly tall. not like old slavics..blonde and is evident from pics like slavic god- Perun..etc. However, when the slavs settled to the balkans they imposed their culture and language on the natives.
Slavs settled in Bosnia, Herzegovina, and the surrounding lands, which were then part of the Eastern Roman Empire, in the seventh century. The Slavic Serbs and Croats settled sometime after the first wave of Slavs. You need to understand that serbs were just one tribe of hundreds of slavic tribes who settled the balkans, but they were the largest and the word serv (srb) referred to slav. Ironiclly most slav genetics are present in Bosnia.
Serbi imaju najvise DINARIc gena- molim te citaj par studija kao Venice genetic studies o Balkanu, zato su ti Crno Gorci najveci ljudi u evropi a ne sto su slav.
No one said Bosnia was not a christian country before Islam. Almost every muslim country was christian or some other religion before Islam. However, Medievil Bosnia came uder a lot of attacks such as the Crusade from
Pope Innocent IV who wanted to clear Bogumils- heretics from Bosnia. Many bogumils where thus killed or force to convert to catholism from their ancient religion and bosnian new king King Bela IV was put in power in 1250. This is just 200 year before Islam that Catholism was forcefully imposed on the Bosnian Kigdom, so it is obvious why so many people converted to islam over time. Not to mention crusaders attacking Bosnia and even killing and raping christians in the northern regions such as Bihac sandzak...etc.
Take care! 3 am here
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 24, 2008 5:35 PM
Guarding the American camp? They are not soldiers to fight or kill, but to demine bombs and unactivated mines so that children and innocent people don't die. 99% of Bosnians don't support iraqi occupation, but who asks them?
Yep guarding yes.
'The unit of 49 soldiers will be deployed in Baghdad to provide security in the US Military Camp Victory,' said Podzic.
oh wait a minute. Provide Security for US soldiers? Ohh i thought those bosnian angels were there for poor iraqi kids. Ahh too bad.
LOL@Britain comment. Well in numbers maybe there is 2 million Muslims in Bosnia, Britain 1.5 mil. However, Britian is not a muslim country. How many people in britain will you see great each other with Selam? How many ezans will you hear? You have very little knowladge of Bosnia or Islam in Bosnia
Bosnia isnt muslim country also so you have to look at the numbers of devout muslims. 2 million ''muslims'' 80% of that 2 million are atheist pagans. So that means that britian contributes more to muslims.
Also don't be naive Europe DOES NOT like muslims okey. that is why they are banning building of further mosques and limiting muslims in europe. "They continue to face discrimination and disadvantage: Bangladeshis and Pakistanis together have a long-term unemployment rate nearly three times greater than people of West Indian descent."
In those countries if you wear hijab you are discriminated against and can't find work. Don't be a naive kid.
Bosnia is probably the closest to Lebannon, which has a large christian population and where the constitution discriminates against muslims and is undemocratic, just like in Bosnia
LOL DUDE ever seen a Bosnian girl wear hijab?!! all the bosnian girls try to be hot and see the hijab as something negative. you cant fool me. Britian doesnt build much mosque like buildings indeed but there are buildings and homes where muslims and imanms do their teachings. Albania also has tons of mosques that means nothing.
Find me one site were Bosniaks (BORN MUSLIMS) bag islam? I can definatly tell you its much less then albania or turke
Nop. Bosnians mock islam alot. i cant give you forum links its because i seen it alot and didnt save the links and i dont have time to search them again.
there is 51% Bosniaks and 40% Muslims in Bosnia according to CIA data
poor numbers. Really pathetic.
"On 2006-02-08, Muslims in Sarajevo organized a protest against the cartoons. They delivered a letter demanding an apology for the publication of the cartoons to staff at the Danish, Norweigian and French embassies. The flags of Norway, Denmark and Croatia were burnt"
well it may happen.
I have told you even non-religious Bosniaks are still muslim
hmmm,how do i put this.... NO. hell no,man your funny.
hahaah just one travel agency group 640 people by car, most people go to hajj by airplane. You are funny man though , people in the 1940's were from my family were going to hajj when communism was established... why wouldn't they go now, when its easier then ever?
yet again poor numbers. That much numbers are the same of Christians in luxembourg going to church. And trust me those numbers are small lol.
hahaaha This i had to respond to, Wallahi this is to funny. im starting to think your a serb or something...
Yes you said mosques are full in other european cities, but how many cities in Europe have 186 mosques like Sarajevo? This is no example of deen (Iman), but is my point- that Britain would never allow true freedom of religion or religious expression for muslims.That prejudice still exists. I have told you before Europe does not like muslims
its true you cant hide the fact. Go interview a former mujahedin in bosnia,they came there and found out that local bosniaks never prayed and never even seen a quran.
i am not joking. And also you may have alot of mosques but that doesnt make you muslims
the only way i would ever see bosnians muslims is that they have own muslim country and somewhat muslims values. You know how many bosniaks marry and mix with serbs and croats in bosnia? its true. Bosnians may have somewhat muslims but its less than other western european countries including holland.
Oh and the reason the chechen girl didnt have hijab was because she was in her own home. Well her backyard. Muslimas dont have to put hijab on when they are home with family. So. and it was in LA
I changed the video into something nice
OH and YES but those Chechens who fight in georgia are Kadyrovs men. Kadyrov is muslim but he thinks going against russia is something that isnt islamic or something. I hate him also.
yes. ill start- my sister. you need to go to sarajevo, or more so in Zenica and rural areas. Trust me man. All you know is some retarded westernized Bosnians in Usa or wherever you live??
Nop. Bosnians mock islam alot. i cant give you forum links its because i seen it alot and didnt save the links and i dont have time to search them again.
please find me link. i havent come across any to be honest, but ive seen many albanianas, turks (this forum as well), afghans and iranians mock our great religion.
poor numbers. Really pathetic.
Not really man. After the ottoman empire we became a minority in our own country overnight. Many Bosnians left for Turkey and there is also many in Palestine and Lybia..etc where surnames such as Busnaq is common.We became about 20% of Bosnia in 1860, now we are 51%..
yet again poor numbers. That much numbers are the same of Christians in luxembourg going to church. And trust me those numbers are small lol
read it again. That is just one hajj travel caravan from a city. Around 10,000 people go every year to hajj. 2008 was bigger then ever and each year it is more. That is just with official agencies. Many people go by themselves without booking tours for hajj.
its true you cant hide the fact. Go interview a former mujahedin in bosnia,they came there and found out that local bosniaks never prayed and never even seen a quran.
i am not joking
Total rubbish. Please stop spreading lies. Show me one article where a foreign mujahedin mentioned such thing? Absolute rubbish. I and every single person in my family know how to pray and read Quran. what the hell you talking about.
Yes mixed merriages happened in former yugoslavia, but more common amongst serb-croats. However, there were some mainly in communist towns of Brcko and Sarajevo. If someone would do that in east bosnia they would be shunned and kicked out. i know of one such case in a town of 30,000 people and even that broke up and the kids are probably more religious then most people i know. Why do you think hunderds of Mujahedin wanted to stay in kuffar country of Bosnia if people dont know how to pray? Please dont state something you have no idea about. I have told you were Bosnian Imams are taught and how many madressas we have in Bosnia. This inter-marriage amongst muslims and non-muslims is very small.Serbs hate muslim religion and like i told you niqab was the most common dress until 1940 when it was banned by the communist bastards. so do you really think those people born then would accept that?
Albania has mosques but mnay are empty and stopped operating..in Bosnia we are still further building mosques as there is demand.
Oh and the reason the chechen girl didnt have hijab was because she was in her own home. Well her backyard. Muslimas dont have to put hijab on when they are home with family. So. and it was in LA
Rubbish mainly older people wear hijab in chechenya. i can gurantee you on % terms people of young age in Bosnia would be higher. 100%. Yes, however this is recorded on video and just because it is LA doesnt mean you shouldn't wear hijab. Do your parents wear hijab? Also hijab is not necessary an idicator of your faith. I know one hijab afghan girl and she is a big slut and only wears it cause of her parents and when they are there.
Makka Umarovna Sagaipova and Milana Bakhaeva is first google return, none of them wear hijab. Also Milana is not a muslim name, kind of like it is now many albanians give their children non-muslim names
Also you heared of the Algerian six who were illegaly taken away from Bosnia to guantanamo bay? you have any idea how many people protested against this....Bosnian Prime Minister Adnan Terzic requested Condoleezza Rice arrange the return of the men in a letter dated February 2, 2005. You need to understand when you read Bosnia it is not automtically muslim, just like Lebannon for example.
Salam Aleikum
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 24, 2008 7:27 PM
also please do not feel im attacking you, wallahi this is not my intention- it was more due to your allegations.Although Bosnia is more liberal then most countries, i have told you why and what..however, it is no where to the point you make it man or even anything like Albania. I pray to Allah that your peoples will soon have independece and freedom...this is a big test for your people, everything happens with the Allmighty's will. I really have a lot of sympathy for Chechens and i feel like you are very similar to us in many ways, especially how you were opressed by orthodox nation in the last 100 years +....
Also can you please tell me more about Tatars. Are they very unislamic. I mean Marat Safin and his siter seem like the biggest idiot they have zero idea about islam and are even emberassed to be muslims from a few statements i read
Bro also nice video I understand a lot lot of it.... oprosti Allah- forgive me allah and moitva means prayer.
istine- truth odmaga- like take away. samo Allahu slava nikom drugom. volja- desire. Masallah bro nice clip!
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 24, 2008 7:47 PM
Lillie
you wrote so meny things but I do not see the proof "Bosnians" are something extra in former Yu...well you just admited what I wrote, we all have Slavic origin, in some way Bosnians are just a little bit different than Serbs and Croats, by name of natio in old ages, but as you know they all were Christians and all of those rulers of old Bosna had slavic names. Maybe through years they were assimilated by predominant Serbs and Croats. After WW2 Tito invented muslim nation in Bosna and as I wrote before the only diference among nations in Bosna is by religion. We all share the same language, look alike and thinking.
Realy stupid to say Serbs are not Slavs...
...even Byzantines accepted us as Slavs...long time ago...
What is more important, Turks never managed to islamize Serbs, except small part in Sandzak, like they did in Bosna with "Bosnians". Are there "Bosnians"
Chatolicks or Orthodocks? doubt...
And what is your name, probably something like Semir, Muhamed, Esad, Amir, Almir, Sead, Nazir, Safet with family names like Hadzibegich, Halilovich, Muslimovich, Islamovich, Shacirbey...as we can all see those names are of Turkish and Arabic origins...
yes. ill start- my sister. you need to go to sarajevo, or more so in Zenica and rural areas. Trust me man. All you know is some retarded westernized Bosnians in Usa or wherever you live??
Your sister isnt all bosnia lols. And you keep mentioning sarajevo and zenica. thats like 2 cities. that isnt much.
This inter-marriage amongst muslims and non-muslims is very small
Not true. Many do intermarrie and i know alot of people who also said it. How come every bosnian says different things? wtf.
Ok to make the story short. I want a full report on why bosnian muslims are devout. I want links photos everything and using numbers and figures would also be good. This is the only way to make me really change minds. I know your trying like to go againt me but it isnt really working so far. I want full report.
KavkazBro.. stop acting you knew everything about others especially about Bosnian & Albanian.
What do you think muslim tribal in Afghan so Islamic?. Prophet Muhammad said muslim should be fair in all aspect.
But some muslim in Afghan practice sodom*&^.
Do you realized that. Not only in Afghan but some area in Egypt too.
Though that area (at Egypt) they train their son to be tahfiz but their easily & still sodom*&&* others especially foreign student.
So either Bosnian & Albanian are true muslim or not.. is not beyond your power but its belong to Allah AlMighty.
Bosnian was helped not only by American during Balkan war..but also by Mujahideen around the world.
So by sending Bosnian & Albanian army to Afghan it doesnt mean they fight their own muslim brother and help kufr. They not involved in direct fight but mostly in other task like logistic etc.
Are you think you're good muslim because of your practice 5 times solat perday but at the same time you pray for Allah and asked Serb to destroying other muslim?
Who you?
Try to play as a GOD and judge somebody else much takwal & islam than other?.
Look at Chechen.. think why Chechen was attacked by Russia. Never recognised your sins? And until now Chechen people kept fighting for their own life.
Im sorry but serbs are by genetics by true and large NOT slav but dinaric,illyrian and of balkanic genetics. However, the word serb = slav and you are culturally Slavic since when serbs settled those balkans peoples were forced to assimilate into their culture and traditions.
...even Byzantines accepted us as Slavs...long time ago...
i have told you look at nay recent genetic studies and you will see. You are culturaly slavic.
---------------------------
And what is your name, probably something like Semir, Muhamed, Esad, Amir, Almir, Sead, Nazir, Safet with family names like Hadzibegich, Halilovich, Muslimovich, Islamovich, Shacirbey...as we can all see those names are of Turkish and Arabic origins... ---
Yes Bosnians have Islamic names, not turkish really. There are prescibed under Islam and there is different dirivatives of the 99 names of Allah. Why would you keep your christian name most of which are Hebrew as well, when you dont accept Christianity as the Truth of God. Islam je vjera u samo jednog boga i koristimo imena koja su bogu draga. kao recimo Azis- sto znaci 'bogu pokoran' ili Isa sto znaci Isus. Znaci imena koja su bogu draga.
In regards to Bosniak surnames. Yes many are Islamic, but some remain pre-islamic. This depends on when the person became muslim, also on the region and when it became STANDARDISED.
For example Halilovic means son of halil, so a persons name kept changing from generation to generation and all people had middle names. In those times your surname was not that important and were changing.I have actually studied this phenomena, the same is true amongst serb- Jovanovic for example is son of Jovan. Names were only standerdized around the 1800's. Many people in bosnia have surname after occupations or objects- Obuca, Kovac, Kovacevic, Spahic (if you were a member of the Spahi ottoman horse cavalrey)..etc. These names are also common names and in some regions, especially in central and north bosnia many still have pre-islamic names. E.g Tvrtkovic and Kulenovic are surnames of Bosnian royal family. Alija Tvrtkovic is a Bosnian who claims to be the decendent of the last bosnian king. If you just search of Facebook kulenovic, you will see most of the people have muslim names- Bosniaks.
Also surnames after towns are very common amongst bosniaks- Sarajlic, Sarajlija, Vrban, Gradesevic ( Zmaj od Bosne je imo to prezime)...etc. Most ened with a slavic suffix as well much like chechen muslims.
Im preety sure im related to this guy, since Srebrenica region was full of saxon miners from Hungary- before and after the ottoman empire. Also srebrenica was the last hungarian controlled banovina in Bosnia after jajce to fall to a joint Ottoman-Serb army.So Solyagy became Suljagic. Also around 30,000 hungarian muslims migrated to Bosnia in the late 1700's after that region fell to crusaders, just as serbian muslims settled on the drina after many were killed in Serbia and managed to escape the killings there. However, the predominent number of Bosniaks are native to Bosnia. Sandzak muslims were never part of Bosnian state or borders, although it is obvious they always had a link to Bosnia due to our reliigon. For example many of them joined Kapetan Hussein Gradesevic, who faught for Bosnia...etc
Lilly, Lillie
not good at all...
Serbians are Slavs by all of minds and bodies, just like you have your Slavic origin and nothing else. Do not understand what do you mean with Valpovo (Croatia), are you Croat by origin, is that what you are trying to tell us? Well if it is, it just proves my statement that all "Bosnians" (you call them "Bosniaks") have Serbian or Croatian origin and that they just accepted Islam.
Just like you said, they ALL have islamic origin of their names and it is just like I had said before...
As for Albanian Army it is rather militarized police force than real Army...
No im Saxon from HUNGARY...read again- Saxon miners who settled srebrenica are. There is a village called Sase- which mean Saxon and there is a families with surname-Sasanovic. Obviously there were mixing in with the local illyrian-slavic Bosnians as well after that.
The Illyrians inhabited the Balkans before the Serbs came. When the Serbs came, they assimilated the Illyrians who were a far greater number. Also serbs were just one tribe of many slavic tribes. A small number of slavs in essence 'slavicized' the illyrian (balkan peoples). Serbs are slavic by culture but there genetic is predomenatly dinaric. Looking at maps of illyria it is obvious that Bosnia was the centre of the Illyrian lands.
"Later on when the Serbian reformer Vuk Karadzic was chronicling the Serbs of Bosnia, he noticed that many of them called themselves Illyrians. He was puzzled and wrote:
"To say that they are "Illyrians"; that is a dead and dark name, which today has no meaning, for all reknown historians know today that Slavs are not Illyrians..."
Vuk automatically assumed the people of Bosnia to be pure Slavs. This could hardly be his fault as he was of limited education, and the fact that Slovophilism was in vogue and necessary at the time. Today we know that the people of Bosnia are not pure Slavs and are racially dissimmilar to Slavs. "
@ NOSTOS5 .... That is very much correct. All you have to look at is recent genetic studies, facial features cross-compared to ancient hellenic/roman drawings and excavations and also by looking at the people themselves. North Bosnia and Slavonia region are in general the most slavic people in terms of looks and genetics.
"Wilkes is the foremost LIVING authority on the Illyrians. His is the LATEST comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:
"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO
MODERN ALBANIANS."
Wilkes has been proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage - they are mostly a pre-IE Mediterranean population.
John Wilkes correctly puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslavs, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and south-western Serbia . Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslavs are slavicized Illyrians and he leans on C.S Coon who insists that Albanians are of mixed Slavic, Thracian, Turkish, Armenoid and Illyrian origin.
This work was published in 1991 and based on the newest excavations undertaken in ex-Illyria. Wilkes brings out plenty of the most recent archaeological and anthropological evidence which other's in his field did not have access to.
Ten years after he published this work, the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study proved him correct. Modern science has dealt a huge blow to Albanian attempts to usurpe the Illyrian legacy. He was a decade ahead of his time. Because of his work, many academics within Albania have also come out in favour of accepting the new findings; namely: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu. They are joined by many international critics of the now debunked Albanian-Illyrian theory: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others.
Read this book. Keep in mind that it is based on evidence older works did not have access to and keep in mind that science has proven Wilkes correct ten years after he published this long-overdue honest and objective, thorough analysis of the legacy of one of Europe's oldest civilizations. The Albanians can no longer unjustly monopolise a whole people as they have done in the past."
Please also read some recent genetic studies conducted of the Bosnian population and Dalmatia for more of such evidence ...and what halogroups they belong to.
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 26, 2008 3:48 PM
dude firstly you didnt even read the link i sent you. second of all do you have any idea that there was thousands of saxon miners in srebrenica during the Bosnian kingdom, most of whom converted to Islam over time?
that comment is not half as funny as serbs being slavic. slavic by culture maybe, but genetics not clos. Serbs are dinaric...they have med-turk and even hunnic influances as much as slav.
"The Saxons miners in Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina—active in Brskovo, Rudnik, Olovo, Novo Brdo and other places—also left a significant trace in the mining and metal-working history of the South Slavs.[11]
In the Srebrenica region in particular the mine of Sase translates directly to Saxon in the South Slavic languages of the region. Many of the regions Bosniaks are the direct descendents of these very same miners who settled into the region between the 12th and 15th century.[12]"
like i said the people of this region are slightly different from the rest of Bosnia and Balkans, where the pre-slavic genetics are predominent.
This message has been edited by Bosnian_Lillie on Sep 27, 2008 2:39 AM
the balkans - particularly the former yugoslavia - were an important source of minerals during middleages
silver was one of the more important products till renaissance
from wiki:
Apart from political stability as a result of Stefan's ability to keep a distance from both the Ottomans and Hungarians, stability was also helped by the very rich silver mines, Srebrenica and Novo Brdo, some of the wealthiest in Europe at that time. Belgrade, at that time became one of the largest cities in Europe, numbering over 100,000 people.
Lillie
you posted here something I already know, but do you realy belive that after 7-8 centuries you can say I am a Sax...those miners setled all around Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia etc...so nothing new...
What is the point with pictures of those muslims (probably your former neighbors)? I told you they are no different than any other member of Croats, Serbs or anybody else here. If you want to prove something with their hair colour I can say only that more than a half of the Serbian population is blond or light brown, including me, my wife, son, sister and other relatives...
Talking about genetics, there is probably a mixture of Slavs and other nations including Hungarians, Romanians, Greeks, Turks nad others in a bigger or smaller portions. Any way, never heard of any genetics experiments and researches in this area taken by governments of Serbia or Former Yugoslavia.
Well, Semir, Alia or Hasan it was nice debating you again...
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