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A Real Greek Tragedy

October 22 2008 at 3:00 PM
  (Login notanonymous)
Elite WAFF Vet Club



    
This message has been edited by notanonymous on Nov 3, 2008 6:57 PM
This message has been edited by notanonymous on Nov 3, 2008 6:56 PM
This message has been edited by notanonymous on Nov 3, 2008 6:56 PM
This message has been edited by notanonymous on Nov 3, 2008 6:55 PM


 
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(Login notanonymous)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 22 2008, 3:00 PM 

http://vdare.com/

F.uck an eye for an eye. You take my eye, and I will kill you, and all those you care about. That is our policy.

 
 

Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
GROUP LEADER

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 22 2008, 8:46 PM 

this is true, the policies followed by greek governments on this critical issue are retarded...there is no plan whatsoever...the only positive thing of the story is the low wages of the immigrants that have helped the economy growth to be kept at really high levels...

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Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 

Eric
(Login Nighthawk00)
Eagle Squadron(US)

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 22 2008, 8:53 PM 

A question: did criminality increase dramatically after 1991?


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

 
 

Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
GROUP LEADER

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 22 2008, 9:48 PM 

it certainly did..

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 

(Login exovedate)
Member

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 4:08 AM 

"the only positive thing of the story is the low wages of the immigrants that have helped the economy growth to be kept at really high levels"

This picture is not as rosy as it seems.

Greece a few years ago decided to include estimations of the black market economy and things such as prostitution into its yearly GDP estimations. This is something other EU nations do not do and is one of the reasons why Greece's annual GDP and GDP per capita grew quite substantially in the last few years.

Only when you take away these additions can Greece's true economic growth (vis a vis the world's normal standard) be known.

 
 

Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
GROUP LEADER

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 6:53 AM 

the revision you are talking about only happened 2-3 years ago and has bugger-all to do with the contribution of the low income immigrants....the impact is on the growth rate of the economy which is steadily above the EU average since 1996 (between 3.5% and 5%).

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 

(Login exovedate)
Member

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 7:52 AM 

It may contribute a lot to Greece's year by year economic growth (and I am specifically talking about the last few years since the change).

Quite a few of your low income earners are probably working illegally or "under the table" in Greece (maybe by choice or maybe because they are desperate) which is factored into the underground economic portion of the the GDP Greece claims. This portion is adjusted year by year and can therefore affect the growth percentage per annum.

Furthermore, claiming the underground economy (which many low income immigrants find themselves in) as part of a nations GDP does not accurately portray a nations economic health as the black market does not often directly benefit the state (through taxes, etc) and its law abiding citizens. The fact that crime has risen over the years (costing more to the state through law enforcement and lost revenue) in Greece demonstrates that there is a larger underground economy there year by year.

So that growth percentage may not be as rosy as it seems. It all depends on how you crunch the numbers.


    
This message has been edited by exovedate on Oct 23, 2008 7:58 AM


 
 

ODYSSEUS
(Login ontyseas)
RedCoats(UK)

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 9:29 AM 

First of all lets talk about the social concequences of illegal immigration, the concequences are negative not only for the local population since alot of foreign people are coming inside the country in already very much populated areas enhancing even more the already existing problems in our overcrowded cities. Moreover the already existing infastructures are not sufficient to cover the  needs of the local population im talking about health, education, and residence therefore those foreign illegal immigrants will be treated much worse than the local population and this will lead the International community to accuse Greece of not respecting human rights, something unfair since those people illegaly entered the country without the proper documentation and therefore the country was not neither willing nor prepared in terms of infastructure and financially to accomodate them.

Secondly, i could accept the argument that those people could reinforce our local economy and they contribute in positive way in our GDP if we had an organized policy concerning immigration, this policy would define how many immigrants we really want to work in our country and what number of them would be beneficial for our economy to be legalized. However nothing of the short has happened, we see some businessment hiring illegal immigrants in order to be personally benefited but they take advantage of those poor creatures who come in Greece with a hope to get a better life. So they local economy of course cannot be benefited by illegal immigration, because we can talk about financial benefits only when we have to deal with legal and preplaned procedures by the government

Those people are willing to take any job at any salary this means that they will steal the jobs from the local population who will demand their legal social security and the legal salaries rates considerably increasing the possible expenses for the employer who will prefer to take advantage of the illegal immigrant instead

Of course there are many other negative aspects as the aspect of criminality because most of those people do not have proper identification papers and therefore they pose a security risk for the hosting country, and secondly those people have not been medically examined so the can easily transmit contagious diseases to the local population posing a health risk too as well.

The other thing which should be taken into consideration is that in many cases those people although they illegally entered a country and therefore they are outlaws and subjected to be expelled or imprisoned at any time, they come to a point to complain to international organizations about a bad treatment by the police, the lack of religious places for them to pray, the lack of job opportunities, or education

those people seem to forget that they are invaders and outlaws and Greece as is the case with any country which faces the same problem has no obligation to offer them the above priviliges, from the fear that she might be accused by international organizations that she does not respect human rights

the lack of sufficient guarding of our borders, the lack of proper control procedures, the lack of proper central planning on behalf of the Greek government concerning immigration policies and procedures, as well as the provocative stance of some Greek politicians as Vasilis Magginas who was housing and talking advantage of an illigal immigrant

(imagine if the politicians are acting in an illegal way then who the hell is going to act in a legal way)

have led our country to be a Banana country once again, with the obvious danger to severly alternate our local population and after a few years to become a minority in our own country, in this context we should not worry so much about Turkey, in a few years all those illegal immigrants will de facto demand their rights and with the tolerance and assistance of international humanitarian organizations we will come up to the point to be expelled or loose control of our own country.

In this context the international organizations concerning human right respect should not only care about the well being of the illegal immigrants, they should also take into consideration the legal status of those people, the limitation of the existing infastructures of a particular country to host a large number of illegal immigrants , and the dangers associated with the presence and interference of those people with the local population, otherwise we are talking about a hypocritical stance on their behalf since they display enormous concern about the well being of the outlaws but they fail to display the same respect for the living conditions and the threats coming from illegal immigrants threating the local legal citizens of a particular country

Every state has the primary obligation to take care of the needs first and foremost of its legal citizens, but it does not have the same obligation concerning illegal immigrants and thats something that some people should put it deeply into their heads. We cannot talk about illegal immigrants rights, when the rights of the legal citizens are suffering, first priority is the legal citizens of country and everything else is of minor importance. No country has obligation to spend valuable funds in building infastructures for the illegal immigrants when the local population lacks basic benefits and infastructures

It is the obligation of their native country to care of its citizens , and since we are talking about poor countries let the international organizations and the World  bank to assist Pakistan India, Iraq and all the other countries which need financial support instead of trasfering the problem to third irrelevant to the problem parties accusing those countries that they do not respect human rights at the same time

thats dirty and hypocritical on their behalf indeed.

 





ODYSSEUS KILLING THE SUITORS


    
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 23, 2008 10:10 AM
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 23, 2008 10:04 AM
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 23, 2008 9:57 AM
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 23, 2008 9:39 AM
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 23, 2008 9:34 AM


 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login achaios77)
Hellenic Hoplites

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 12:03 PM 

The immigrant population consist mostly of albanian, romanian and slavic immigrants and people from Africa and eastern countries like Pakistan, Bagladesh and Afghanistan. A big part of the albanian and other european immigrants immigrants are returning or plan to return to their homelands sooner or later after they make some good money. Most of them have their families in their countries. Especially for some of the albanians who during the last two years return to Albania and invest their earnings there. Undoubtedly, some of them will remain here for ever but they integrate well after the turbulent decade of the 90s. For the rest of the immigrants from Pakistan and other eastern countries, things are more complicated. The majority of them, esp the Afghans want to go west europe, to industrial countries in order to work there. In the article there is a reference to Patras. Since i live there i have seen the situation. The eastern immigrants, pakis, afghans and others are staying right next to the ports gates in order to find ships for Italy. Due to european laws they cannot have papers or green card for western europe. For all of them Greece is just a place to live until their status is to be clarified. They dont want to live here since there are no jobs for them and they cannot integrate to the greek society. My prediction is that at the end the only immigrants to stay and assimilate are a part of albanians and romanians. The rest probably sooner or later they will seek other places to live. Situation is not good ofcourse but not that tragic as the article mentions.

 
 
Nikephoros
(Login Nikephoros)
Eagle Squadron(US)

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 6:51 PM 

In Greece since much of the political class(and population) likes to mimic Western Europe, this class also re-creates in Greece alot of the same problems for itself that plauge Western Europe. Greece like much of Western Europe is crippled by an overly powerful and ideological left, that cannot evaluate the recent immigration besides through the usual leftist cliches. We can sum up the European leftist cliche on immigration as:

One global humanity for one global market.

Of course no self respecting Euro-leftist will admit such a maxim drives the mass immigration, because then they cannot pretend to be "progressive" by supporting such immigration. Western European countries that adopted mass immigration(a la USA, Canada, Australia; vast countries that were conquered by peoples of European stock from native aborginals of low population density) did so in periods of economic boom. The argument went that there was a shortage of manpower for companies, so import immigrants. But what happens when the boom is gone? Is the problem just that there is a manpower shortage or that in general native populations in the richer countries will not have many children due to their modern bourgoise ideals?

Europeans must ask themselves if they want "one global humanity" in their cities or if they want to actually perserve their own national and regional cultures, by curbing the high level of immigration(legal and illegal) effective immediately. Sadly I know the Greek political culture of failure will continue to follow the Western European ideal: "one global humanity, for one global market, and that humanity will take root in every European city, displacing the national population".

Sig:
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Quote:Mundine:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/248068/thread/1218331962/
I thought that this might be just Turkish journalists creating a bullsh*it story also. Probably is seeing as our journalists lie a lot.


    
This message has been edited by Nikephoros on Oct 23, 2008 7:04 PM


 
 


(Login AHERON)
Hellenic Hoplites

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 23 2008, 10:10 PM 

Quote:
A question: did criminality increase dramatically after 1991?



You bet it did!.... especially in the mid to late 90s....
Until the early 90s you could hear on the news about major crime event, every one-two months...
after the eastern (and northern for us) borders collapsed, there were crimes almost daily....






By AHERON

 
 

Eric
(Login Nighthawk00)
Eagle Squadron(US)

Re: A Real Greek Tragedy

October 24 2008, 2:09 PM 

Why am I not surprised ...


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

 
 
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