Who here believes the 2 future British carriers will have no cost increases? I predict a modest 50% cost increase.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. However, unlike other large defence contracts, the price agreed was actually what BAe said it would cost....

i.e. BAe were originally made contract prime for the manufacture of the vessels. They told the MOD that the Thales design would cost £4.0bn to build. The MOD said, "no they won't" because we want to pay £3.0bn for them. The MOD then set up various studies to look at ways to reduce the costs for the CVFs and ensure "good value for money", only to finally agree to pay £3.9bn to build them!

Now this may smack of the usual MOD cost cutting sh!te. But at least they finally agreed to pay pretty much what BAe said it would cost all along... which is progress in MOD procurement terms!!

To be fair, there will be some significant hurdles to overcome before the ships enter service, but I have more confidence in this programme than previous major defence programmes.

"Ordinarily I would agree with you. However, unlike other large defence contracts, the price agreed was actually what BAe said it would cost...."
-----
But isn't this how procurements work? You agree on a price at first, but the reality is that material costs go up, labor rates increase, mistakes in manufacturing and design occur, hence costs increase.

But isn't this how procurements work? You agree on a price at first, but the reality is that material costs go up, labor rates increase, mistakes in manufacturing and design occur, hence costs increase.


No. The usual way it worked was you undercut your competition, win the contract and then go running back to the government when you run out of money and need some more. By this point it's usually too late to look at alternative options, so the government coughs up.

It's that or in other cases, some numpty decides that the cost is too high so they come up with some hairbrained idea to reduce the procurement costs only to find that the solution selected either doesn't work (ahem, Chinook), or faces additional costs in other parts of the programme as a direct result of cost cutting measures early on (ahem, WAH-64 Apache).

Time will tell if CVF is one of those rare examples of sound decisions being applied to the project from the outset!

The thing is, BAe KNOWS the MoD has no other choice than to go through with this program. I think the ships will be late, that's already certain, and over budget. I stick with my 50%, defense companies have no shame especially in the US and the UK.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

who honestly believes a typhoon is worth 70 million euros?
or
a leopard 2hel costs 10million U.S dollars?

take the danm aircraft carrier,weigh it up and do a costing for the metal to start off with
then count the man hours and do a costing for that ,,and so on.

why do you think the defense industries are so rich and powerful??
because they give non rip off prices???

The thing is, BAe KNOWS the MoD has no other choice than to go through with this program. I think the ships will be late, that's already certain, and over budget. I stick with my 50%, defense companies have no shame especially in the US and the UK.

I think they will be on time and budget, screwing this up could be really, really bad for BAE long term and they know it. So long as other countries are kept out of the program it should go reasonably smoothly.

take the danm aircraft carrier,weigh it up and do a costing for the metal to start off with
then count the man hours and do a costing for that ,,and so on.
why do you think the defense industries are so rich and powerful??
because they give non rip off prices???

That's completely false. Price rises are as Pymes said due to a company giving a price that is far too low initially in order to win the contract. The metal costs are published, they were ordered a few months back. Everything else varies as so much work is sub-contracted to other companies (all publicly listed orders IIRC) and so delays with these people can cause changes in productivity and therefore the price of the carriers. If the government decides to change anything, this too can set back the program.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

Which recent projects has BAe completed ontime and on-budget?

Which recent projects has BAe completed ontime and on-budget?

BAE Herti went fine, I'm not listing the status of every project, I have better things to do with my time.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

P³, I think your list is exhaustive. Well done.







Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

Yes, shut me up, didn't he?

Actually, BAe did a pretty good job on the Bay Class LSD(A)s they built... The fact that the project was late and overbudget actually wasn't BAe's fault on this occasion - it was Swan Hunter's fault.

In fact, BAe managed to deliver their first vessel (Mounts Bay) before Swan Hunter delivered the 1st of Class (yes, mad eh?!) due to various problems with Largs Bay! Further than that, as a result of built quality problems with Lyme Bay (Swan Hunter's second vessel), she was given to BAe to complete!!

Maybe so with the LSD ships, but it is BAE Systems Submarine Solutions which is building sections of the QE. This section of BAE is the notorious mismanaged section which is also building the Astute SSN.

Yes, shut me up, didn't he?

Yes, I especially like how the Royal Navy carrier will be a carrier, unlike the Italian navy which went with an assault ship

And the new Submarine command system for the SSN's is ahead of schedule

http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/NewsReleases/2008/autoGen_108111514515.html

Oh wait, Italy doesn't even have SSN's










"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

Maybe so with the LSD ships, but it is BAE Systems Submarine Solutions which is building sections of the QE. This section of BAE is the notorious mismanaged section which is also building the Astute SSN.

Come on, show us the closest thing Italy has to HMS Astute


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

"Come on, show us the closest thing Italy has to HMS Astute"
-------
Not the argument. Italy does not have SSNs. Period. The argument is whether the QE will be built in-time and on-budget. Has BAe built a ship from top to bottom on-time and on-budget?

Don't worry VG2000, in a few years we'll bump this thread and see who had it right.


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

Not the argument. Italy does not have SSNs. Period. The argument is whether the QE will be built in-time and on-budget. Has BAe built a ship from top to bottom on-time and on-budget?

Oh it is. At least BAE can produce SSN's. Generally as most people know, national governments are the ones delaying projects, not BAE


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

"unlike other large defence contracts, the price agreed was actually what BAe said it would cost...."


Just like all BAE's contracts before it...

"At least BAE can produce SSN's. Generally as most people know, national governments are the ones delaying projects, not BAE".


Realy? Let's SEE:

What was Astute problems?

Ho yeah, DESIGN, sorted by the US company Electric Boats, then the little matter of a pump failure which meant the HULL had to be opened to get to it, now i suppose this is a UK gouvernement sabotage too...

And we will SEE how much skills BAe will show when it comes to put the carriers together which BTW will be partly thanks to the French mystake into trying to cooperate and paying for the use of preliminary design by Thales.

BAE record, mate is so BAD and well documented, you can troll about it all you want it won't change reality.


Squadron LaFayette.

French Air Force/AdA.