And greece has asked germany to return her stolen gold bullion from ww22
greece has also asked germany for compensation for the attrocities commited
against greek civilians and infrastructure.

did germany heed?

And the turks demanded back the 4 million pounds (ww1 era. How much is 4 million worth now? ) payed for a British warship that was never delivered.
In other words, Griks pay up or shut up u lousy EU aid driven monkeys.

I don't see how you link World War 2 and today's modern world.

Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."


"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

tellak TuAF is there supposed to be something attached in your post?

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

we should also ask greece for compehension due to the negative influence of some ancient greet lecture






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

You should try posting before you drink your friday night Pils.

"And greece has asked germany to return her stolen gold bullion from ww22
greece has also asked germany for compensation for the attrocities commited
against greek civilians and infrastructure.

did germany heed? "


Germany stole $ 1 Billion in gold bullion from the Greek Central Bank during WW2. That would easily be $ 40-50 Billion today. Greece also lost 10% of it's population to starvation induced diseases during WW2. And the collapse of the Drachma after the war due to no gold to back it up helped bring on the Greek Civil War.

So if the EU wants to slide Greece a few extra EURO's to build up it's infrastructure that's hardly asking too much. The total impact of WW2/Greek Civil War on Greece is probably in the range of $ 100 Billion in today's money.

Unlike Germany there was no 'Marshall Plan' to rebuild Greece after WW2. We fought, we died and we got ignored.

lol some of these greeks just kill me

if you ask some of them in here, i swear they will tell you their s hit dont smell


The Turks can, they just can!

Unlike Germany there was no 'Marshall Plan' to rebuild Greece after WW2. We fought, we died and we got ignored.

---------------------

are you kidding me? ignored ok.

ask yourself first

from 1948-1951 greece becomes 366.000.000 US$ from the marshall plan


_______________________________________________________

The act, which Truman signed into law on May 22, 1947, granted Greece $300 million in military and economic aid. In the second stage of the civil war in December 1944, the British helped prevent the seizure of Athens by the leftist National Liberation Front (EAM), controlled effectively by the Communists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine#Greece



Greece, living off welfare since 500 bc...

---





Bir daha gel, gel Samsun'dan...

"from 1948-1951 greece becomes 366.000.000 US$ from the marshall plan "


Didn't come close to compensating Greece for the damage your forebears did. WW2 was a catastrophe for nations like Greece who fought the good fight, then got passed over after the war when the spoils and reperations were being handed out.

The Greek economy was shattered by WW2. Took decades to recover. And we never did get back a single ounze of the Gold the Nazi's stole. Probably still sitting in Swiss Banks with the Gold from the Jews teeth.

As for the Turk, his ancestors were sucking Nazi kock and making bundles of cash selling minerals to keep the Nazi war machine running. Didn't help them-they're still just Turks and squandered all the wealth they obtained. Look at them today! LOL.

Landos,WELL SAID!

to my polish friend who couldnt see the conection,you would have seen it perfectly if the
gold owed was owed to you.

as for the $300million in aid through the marshal plan the ratio was 1:6 in in other words for every loaf of bread we got we got 6 rifles to support the anti communist purge and to defend western europe from communism.

as for the turk who said "Greece, living off welfare since 500 bc..."

to you i say "turks,paracitical thieves and murderers since inception till present" as well as a go and get"kurdistoned"

like i said, they believe their s hit dont smell

Good help anyone who speaks out against the hellanians lol

The Turks can, they just can!

Rzecz is right. There should be no connection between the two.

What are you going to do? Bitch about the past every time you place an order? You didn't have to buy the assets and it's in VERY poor taste to play the victim card when it comes time to pay the bill.

If you want the gold and war reparations then lobby for it. Oh yeah, that's right... you probably already know that it won't ever come your way. So why don't you just accept the fact that the past is the past like the proud people you say you are and look towards the future.

Anyway, Greece has been compensated in other ways along with the Marshall Plan. The billions in European structural funds (and the billions more to come) more than make up for the damage done during the war.

And finally, No one is forcing you to buy from the Germans. That is completely your government's choice. If you hate them so much then buy off someone else or invest in your own military industrial complex and make the stuff on your own.

Considering Greece is one of the biggest importers of military goods in the world it's probably the best thing to do. Cause its never a good idea to bitch to much to your supplier. They might decide to turn off the tap one day when you need it the most.

to my polish friend who couldnt see the conection,you would have seen it perfectly if the
gold owed was owed to you.

No one suffered more then Poland during World War 2. Poland was reduced to ashes, Warsaw was demolished and only 15% of the city stood after the war... Unlike Greece, almost 50% of the industrial infrastructure of Poland was razed and around 33% of civilian infrastructure was destroyed.

Unlike Greece Poland lost about 16% of its population, not only to starvation but to extermination.

Unlike Greece, Poland had not only its art work and cultural items stolen or destroyed, it had its Gold bullion stolen by both the Soviets and Nazi's, half the reparations were taken by the Soviets rather then given to Poland, our boarders shifted with millions expelled from our Eastern homelands.

Unlike Poland, you didn't suffer Communist purges, stagnation and retardation.

I think the last person you want to complain about a bit of Gold stolen in World War 2 about is a Pole. Be glad the West didn't sell you out to the Soviets like they did to Poland.

We still have the legacy of the barbaric Russian rule to live with, you have modern infrastructure, decent per capita GDP and developed companies (followed up with a developed market). Poland has to catch up for the next two decades in the bare minimum to even be on par with TODAYS West.

Poles have in some way moved past it, in the younger generations at least. You can't keep linking what happened in the past to today, or else you'll never move forward.

Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."


"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

What some of you ass clowns don't seem to understand is, that it's not Germany that is asking for the money, but the companies that provided goods and service that happen to be German.

Do you honestly believe you should get a product for free from a private company that had nothing to do with historical events some 70 years ago?

What some of you ass clowns don't seem to understand is, that it's not Germany that is asking for the money, but the companies that provided goods and service that happen to be German.

Do you honestly believe you should get a product for free from a private company that had nothing to do with historical events some 70 years ago?
---
Absolutely!


Mobile airpower

"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.

Well indeed Germany should pay back the stolen but this has nothing to do with modern
era weaponry purchases.

I think Greece has already paid 70% of total money for all 4 U-214 and still no one
in service.Deliver the goods then ask for total sum...

As for Leo-2 i think up to 70% or even more is paid to KMW.

Greece is a major client of German weapons,i think Germany should
show some understanding on these difficult times.

And i think Germany should pay for what they caused in Greece in WW-2,just
because Poland suffered more it doesn`t mean Greece should stay silent.

And i think Germany should pay for what they caused in Greece in WW-2,just
because Poland suffered more it doesn`t mean Greece should stay silent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Really?

How much aid does Greece receive every year from the EU, of which we are the highest contributor?

Here is an example of emergency aid.

""

Athens, 06 May 2008  EU aid worth 89.7 million approved for fire relief

The European Parliament Budget Committee today unanimously approved a European Commission proposal for the granting of 89.7 million euros in aid to Greece from the EU Solidarity Fund to offset part of the costs incurred after devastating forest fires during the summer of 2007. The formal approval of the Council of Ministers is due shortly and procedures are expected to have been completed in June for the disbursement of the aid.

""

And i think Germany should pay for what they caused in Greece in WW-2,just
because Poland suffered more it doesn`t mean Greece should stay silent.

Two ass clowns came into power not too long ago in Poland who made light of the devastating facts of World War II and achieved nothing but disbelief and contempt from not only Germans, but other Europeans.

All they did was dig up old wounds in order to gain votes in Poland, though many points of truth were spoken, what is the point of bringing them up in today's political arena?

If you seek European integration and what I would call European friendship, the last thing you need to do is try and divide it based on the past.

If Poland today does not demand reparations for such crimes (and there is no way Germany could even begin to afford the reparations) then I have the opinion Greece should not make itself into a European mockery by doing so either. Nothing shows weakness and primitiveness beyond that, hence why I was as a Pole, embarrassed to have such primitive minded people almost demand reparations from Germany in the new millennium.

Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."


"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

As for the Turk, his ancestors were sucking Nazi kock and making bundles of cash selling minerals to keep the Nazi war machine running.

-------------------

Whats wrong with trade?

Are you a commie or what...


---





Bir daha gel, gel Samsun'dan...

More than a half-million German-Turkish voters are eligible to go to the polls in federal elections this weekend. They overwhelmingly support the Social Democrats, and Chancellor Gerhard Schr? has put Turkish voters at the front of his campaign this week.

This week, German Chancellor Gerhard Schr? paid a visit to the editorial offices and printing plant of the Dogan Media Group, the German arm of Turkeys largest media conglomerate.



It was one of Schr?s easier campaign stops. After all, his challenger, Angela Merkel of the Christian Democrats (CDU), in contrast, has alienated Turkish voters with her aggressive opposition to EU membership for Ankara.

But the most telling statistic is the growth in the number of Turkish voters in Germany. Slowly they are emerging as a powerful minority voting bloc. Since 1972, 666,000 of the former guest workers who came to help rebuild Germany during the economic miracle that followed World War II have become naturalized citizens. And that number has surged in recent years under a new citizenship law that permits Turks born in Germany to apply for citizenship when they turn 18. By most estimates, more than half-million Turkish-Germans will be eligible to vote in Sundays election a crucial voting block in an election in which 30 percent of Germans remain undecided. In its above-the-fold headline on Wednesday, the mass-circulation Bild newspaper asked: Will the Turks Determine the Election?

http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/3503.html

old artickle but things arent getting any better.

Is pretty much obvious that German politicians are increasingly relying on turkish votes.

There is even a turkish leader on a major party in Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_%C3%96zdemir

So what does Turkish German voters have to do with Greece refusing to pay up to Germany?

Gayreek brain works differently then other humans, I guess.

---





Bir daha gel, gel Samsun'dan...

-So what does Turkish German voters have to do with Greece refusing to pay up to Germany?
Gayreek brain works differently then other humans, I guess-

dont have time for the od suni attention whore but you failed to notice that the money have been paied in a large amount and still no subs around.. Thats not typical proffesional contact on behalf of the Germans and im stating the obvious

You clowns should have asked for money before signing TREATIES with Germany, settling all demands for "WW2 compensation". If you want to find out about them use google, im tired of helping retarded People.



---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

we only refund these toys if whole greece converts to judaism






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

You'll have to excuse the Greeks, they're used to handouts and their entitlements, naturally when you ask them to pay for something fair and square they start making excuses like bringing up WWII gold and how they didnt get enough out of the Marshall Plan etc.

Its sad really to see what the once proud ancient Greek civilization has become, a bunch of pathetic beggars.



I Hail The Flag

@ Rzecz

QUOTE:
"No one suffered more then Poland during World War 2. ETC ETC"

//so its o.k to say to the greeks forget about it guys ,it was like 70 years ago,let it go all ready ,move on,whats that got to do with things today.
BUT its all right for you to be bitter about what happend to poland,70 years ago,heh?
your right not to do anything about it BUT i'll take a leaf outa the jews book and hunt the phuckers down for reperrations if thats all right with you!



@Stefan
QUOTE:
"What some of you ass clowns don't seem to understand is, that it's not Germany that is asking for the money, but the companies that provided goods and service that happen to be German.

Do you honestly believe you should get a product for free from a private company that had nothing to do with historical events some 70 years ago?"

//well not exactly stef.the looted gold no doubt helped finance those companies ,may have even contributed to R&D and whilst you are right in that its a private german company that wants to be paid its still a special type of company with a special type of inter government relationship
besides when those very same german companies were using free slave labour under german governmental approval it didnt stop the european courts from 60 years later forcing said companys to pay renumeration and compensation to the jews did it?
yeah they want their money and it would of already been paid(3/4 was paid up front)but it took the germans ages to fix the subs shortcommings,now the yard can wait just like the HN waited.


QUOTE:

How much aid does Greece receive every year from the EU, of which we are the highest contributor?

Here is an example of emergency aid.

//lets dispell some myths shall we.

1.emergency aid issue.its available to each and every member in EMERGENCYS,last
recipient of this aid was italy for the earthquake a month ago.dont hear you barking about them stef.

2.eu rules stipulates "no charging of tarrifs and taxes on trade between member states."
governments will be compensated for loss of revenue through eu funds.
why you complaining stef?we're just following the rules germany helped formulate.

3."preferential treatment shall be given to eu goods between member states" so stef ,its sounds like german industry likes the benefits of captive clients but dont like to pay for it heh?
i bet those german companies that rake in billions from the greek mod arnt complaining,wounder how many german jobs we provide?


@ schlawa
QUOTE:
"You clowns should have asked for money before signing TREATIES with Germany, settling all demands for "WW2 compensation". If you want to find out about them use google, im tired of helping retarded People."

NOT SOOOO FAST there kraut!!we did raise the issue of the gold ,we did raise the issue of the massacres and we did raise the issue of compensation.but do you know what the excuse was?
"wait till germany is re united"said your politicians.
as for signing treaties with germany the only treaty signed was for the sesssation of hostilities.

@Germark
Quote:
"we only refund these toys if whole greece converts to judaism"

//how the fuk did you get out of auschwitz? ...or maybe there was no holocaust to begin with.
either way german engineering isnt what it used to be so it aint worth selling our souls for!!

@ DirtyDirtyDirtyTurk
QUOTE:
You'll have to excuse the Greeks, they're used to handouts and their entitlements, naturally when you ask them to pay for something fair and square they start making excuses like bringing up WWII gold and how they didnt get enough out of the Marshall Plan etc.

Its sad really to see what the once proud ancient Greek civilization has become, a bunch of pathetic beggars.


//NO you'll have to excuse the turk,hes just sore that turkey aint getting into the eu!!it seems jealousy has no cure but nagging like a bitch seems to help them.but speaking of being proud,does declaring war on on the axis of evil one day before the armistice comes into effect count as having pride?
now back to work tellak!!i told you before and i'll say it again ,im only paying you to scrub toiletts and not to yakk yakk ,fair and square as you put it!!

"Do you honestly believe you should get a product for free from a private company that had nothing to do with historical events some 70 years ago?"

Who said we wanted it free? Make it work to the CONTRACTUAL SPECIFICATIONS and Greece will pay the full amount. Rather simple to understand, isn't it?

As for reperations after WW2, Greece got steamrolled by the Big Powers like USA and Britain. They wanted to use Germany as buffer to the Soviets, so any Greek interests were relegated to the back seat.

We fought the Italians, Nazis and Bulgarians and the nation was practically destroyed in doing so. What we received back for our sacrifices was a joke. Germany and Italy got off way too easily for the damage they inflicted on Greece.

They shouldn't be harping about EU funds to upgrade the Greek infrastructure, since they're responsible for destroying so much of it.

//so its o.k to say to the greeks forget about it guys ,it was like 70 years ago,let it go all ready ,move on,whats that got to do with things today.
BUT its all right for you to be bitter about what happend to poland,70 years ago,heh?
your right not to do anything about it BUT i'll take a leaf outa the jews book and hunt the phuckers down for reperrations if thats all right with you!


What the hell are you talking about?

And if you want my honest answer, Poles have a million times more reason to be bitter then Greeks, but are not.

Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind usimmensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."


"As a Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

KMWeg is now selling their last shirts because greece can't pay for the Tanks.

http://www.kmw.merchandisingweb.com/SyEngine.php?Do=4629







Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

The Greek military will fall apart without spareparts from Germany. Time is running for us

---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

Well the Greece did not whant to buy any Swedish Military material at all so Type 214 is a derivat on the Swedish A 26 and viking project , Kokums was bought by a German firm , and yet they have Erieeye and other stuff.

"The Greek military will fall apart without spareparts from Germany. Time is running for us"

Schlawa your underistimation of Greeks has always been our greatest weapon throughout history.

Funny to see Turks and Germans backing each other up??? what the f has the world come to?

As for the purchase this is a contractual dispute which happens all too often in "BUSINESS DEALS" nothing more, and i say Germany in WWII should not take the full blame for reperations to Greece, rather the Italian cowards who got their asses kicked by us are to blame, forcing Hitlers hand on Greece.

Germany never wanted to touch Greece! Italy should be the sole power responsible for the ensuing destruction. Germans and Greece had no previous problems before Italy's failed and laughable invasion.

We were outgunned outmanned and yet we through them out and took half of Albania for good measure with fk all weapons and ammo. And lets not get started about the battle of the Metaxas line or the invasion of Crete were the entire first airborne drop was wiped out by Cretans armed with limited rifles and knives.

Refer to the below leaders comments.










Adolf Hitler:
"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and the highest disregard of death.. " (From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)"

"The Greek military will fall apart without spareparts from Germany. Time is running for us"

Schlawa your underistimation of Greeks has always been our greatest weapon throughout history.

Yeah ? I mostly see Greeks bitching about a costly War with Germany in this thread (which was caused by Italy !), trying to excuse the bankrupt state and bad paying morale of their country with a billion of Gold that was stolen 70 years ago. You had a Civil War, a Dictatorship and countless corruption scandals that costed your country much more than anything Germany took from you in WW2.

PS: I have read that Greece had problems with its U-214 that may have been caused by the German company in charge of the adoption to Greek standards. Im not into it very much but I can understand paying less if a product doesnt work as intended and promised. However putting K-M-W in harms way and causing liquidity problems for a superb company that fully delivered what was wanted is unacceptable for any sane person.

---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

Greeks cannot pay a bill to a German company....so now it's Italy's fault???

No its not Italies fault

No more about WW2

---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

VG others brought in the WWII issues, i was simply addressing those allong with the topic, that was all. read before you talk.


Adolf Hitler:
"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and the highest disregard of death.. " (From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)"

what are you guys blabering huh? don't you know it's christians's and turk's fault that greeks don't live in their space colonies... geez.

-----------------------------

-VG others brought in the WWII issues-

VG2000 is a turk. propably tuafs italian alter ego

Phuck the German company. They have to meet the SPECIFICATIONS, then they get paid. If they couldn't meet them they shouldn't have signed the contract.

I deal with German companies and I can't say I'm very impressed. Mostly what they do is miss deadlines continually and offer excuses. And their employees are continually 'on holiday'. Whatever the German work ethic was 40-50 years ago it isn't very impressive today. And I am not exagerrating.

"
Phuck the German company. They have to meet the SPECIFICATIONS, then they get paid. If they couldn't meet them they shouldn't have signed the contract.
"


your claim has been blown away long time ago




they meet the specs for the submarines since 3 years now lol

they also meet the specs for the leopard 2

they also meet the specs for the pzh 2000

also the nh90 must be paid according to the contract greece has signes

still greece doent/cant pay the full sum for these projects and therefore is an unreliable partner






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

"
We were outgunned outmanned and yet we through them out and took half of Albania for good measure with fk all weapons and ammo. And lets not get started about the battle of the Metaxas line or the invasion of Crete were the entire first airborne drop was wiped out by Cretans armed with limited rifles and knives. "

You mean, wiped out by the british.

*******************************

Odnoszc si do kwestii wtpliwoci strony greckiej dotyczcych sprawnoci technicznej okrtu typu 214, pragn poinformowa, e delegacja Si Zbrojnych Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej zoona z ekspertów Sztabu Generalnego Wojska Polskiego, Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej oraz Marynarki Wojennej, dokonaa weryfikacji doniesie medialnych na ten temat, co te byo jednym z gównych celów ubiegorocznej wizyty w stoczni HDW. Próby morskie z udziaem oficerów Marynarki Wojennej wykazay niezgodno tych doniesie ze stanem faktycznym.

http://orka2.sejm.gov.pl/IZ6.nsf/main/00C6763B

"This is response of Polish MoD to one of the Polish MPs on his question about future of Polish submarines (so kinda official statement by Polish MoD). The most important part is underlined. It is stated there that group of Polish naval officers visited PAPNIKOLIS during her trials and found that press reports as in regard to the technical condition of the boat were not true [so they are claiming that the boat was fully operational at the time of their presence"

what type of inspection did the poles undertake exactly ?

i know that the greeks put to sea with the sub and put it through its paces
and a list of defects was made ranging from material defects to performance defects so therefore how thorough was the polish inspection?

I know that the greeks put to sea with the sub and put it through its paces
and a list of defects was made ranging from material defects to performance defects so therefore how thorough was the polish inspection?
________________________________________________________________

Can you please tell us whats in the defects list since you said you know?

there were several faults but the major faults were

1.heavy listing at high speed envelope

2.bellast problems,were to heavy.the rectification of the problem resulted in a drop of speed and endurance due to the overstrain on the powerpack
the higher fuel consumption has led to higher operating costs and lower range.

3.problems with the isus computers

4.to remedy a particular problem the sub has to have a major section cut out,ie drydocked and cut in half.

5.problem with propellor/screws,excesive vibrations hence noise.

these from memory were the main faults and the cost/time to fix them.it took the navy approx 2 weeks of continues heavy trials to identify them so it stands to reason that the poles limited time in inspecting them and limited tests did not reveal all to them so that perhaps led to their more favourable appraisal but im afraid for the germans that the HN is a tougher more serious operator thus the heavier scrutiny and standaeds.

Whats Greece going to if lets say Germany refuses to solve anything anymore on the subs and says its fit for fight, are Greece going to consider to get Subs from somewhere else or just accept the sub as it is at the end move along?

Becouse the situation looks not good for Greece to be truth.

Typical from a German company-you get endless excuses and not fixes.

When I deal with Japanese companies they MEET THE SPECIFICATIONS.

If they want Greece to accept the sub as-is they need to sweeten up the deal by adding some incentives. That's how you conduct business.

the expectations are met long time ago

the submarine is completed since 3 years now, hdw undertook various vayages arround the world with it lol

landos where do the leopard tanks, pzh2000 and nh90 not meet the specs? any source? you start to sound like thunder.







fact is that greece is near state bancrupcy






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

Greeks think that everything is free in EU.

Even the first frst payment they did was actually EU aids, technically they never make payments..

stop whinging already.turkey received several hundred million euros to help her facilitate
turkeys transition into the eu yet hasnt fullfiled even the most basic of her chapter requirements
.

@germark,your blind nationalism has been noted.
according to you german industry can not do wrong.
and just for the record YES your leos were faulty also
but the contractual penalties in place forced you to meet the requirements at no
cost to greece.

@@@
turkey received several hundred million euros to help her facilitate
turkeys transition into the eu yet hasnt fullfiled even the most basic of her chapter requirements

Turkey received the money for transition , Greece has been receiving billions to compensate Olympic Airline illegalyy or finish the olympic stadium....

5-6 years ago EU launched financila aid program for the small busineses(actually there are still so many programs but there are more restrictions now...Beofre it was so easy to get some financila aid),
So many Greek company were founded in Thrace in Greek side
Greek companies started importing very very tiny amount some goods from Turkey just to show some activity on their fake companies. They got billion from EU, they just rented abondoned offices, factories or warehouses...For so many years they used the money for their houses or car.

I know very well because we had met couple of them .......

all defects are invented and lied, mainly those asocial Greek government does not pay

_______________________________________________________

Typical squarehead German nationalism-"Ve can do no wrong, because ve are de Germans!!"

I deal with German companies-along with Japanese companies and Chinese companies. And the German companies SUCK as far as meeting the requirements ontime and without exceptions. In Japan and China customer is King. In Germany, customer is a sucker-you take his money and give him what you want and when you want.

I have one German company who hasn't yet met even ONE material required date (MRD) in a program. They've been late on all 6 MRD's we've had and all they offer is endless excuses. And their quality is for chit-they once scrapped $ 100,000.00 worth of prototype parts because they shipped 3 parts loose in a box! Banged into each other in shipment. And nobody was fired!!

That company may be exceptionally bad, but I have similar type issues with other German companies in the past. I find it easy to believe the company making these subs didn't meet the specs and then fell back on whining to the German government, 'Those nasty Greeks won't accept our product and pay us!!!'. I've seen it before, more than once.

And your conclusion is since some German companies disappoint ya they are all just as bad and unreliable ! . Pretty hard to believe dude but hey u r greeks never ending winding ever need a good excuse consult the greeks they have mastered this extraordinary trade congrats now pay the bill will ya .

speaking of paying bills,you turks can pay the verdict of the ECJ.


as for problems with the 214 did the koreans not also expirience problem with theirs?,are they not slowing payments till their issues are rectified?

indeed german excuses are pathetic
what ever happened to german engineering?along with the customer is always right?

"speaking of paying bills,you turks can pay the verdict of the ECJ. "

And about 5000 more yet to be litigated. LOL.

so whats the whole fuss .if there not happy why dont they just give them back

dont they test it before buying it which i bet they did since they have big numbers of them


my cool turkish flag wolf sig

did italy pay compehension to greece yet so they can pay for their weapons?






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

Italians have always compensated the Greeks.....ask the Greek women

italians dont need to compensate greece.they're a peaceful loving people that
dont beat anyone.
couldnt beat the greeks,ethiopians.britts,anzacs,anyone.

VG,so very true.the italians have always compensated us,your mother must have told ya.
very charitable indeed and talented too!
she can suck a golf ball through a 30foot garden hose!

Aietus)

Back to the subject KIDS

Greece has now rejected Papanikolis. However Greece will accept the other 3 214 Subs. Having already paid at least 70% of the total cost of the subs that would make us prety much paid up. After the renegotiating of the contract it may end up that the Germans will owe Greece money.

Greece is also proceeding with further subs.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defencenet.gr%2Fdefence%2Findex.php&sl=el&tl=en&history_state0=el%7Cen%7C

"VG,so very true.the italians have always compensated us,your mother must have told ya.
very charitable indeed and talented too!
she can suck a golf ball through a 30foot garden hose!"
-----------

@Aetius - I though personal attacks on family members were against forum rules? Afterall, you don't see me insulting that flaming cross-dresser you call a father, do you?

"for both technical and psychological reasons"

how paethic these greeks are LOL









Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

1) Griechenland spielt "Wählerisch"

Es ist verwunderlich, dass ein so kleines Land mit ca. 12 Mio Einwohnern und einer mittelprächtigen Wirtschaft immer so teure Militärprojekte leistet - ist wohl ein Mini-Wettrüsten mit der Türkei.

Das Problem wurde aber schon bald klar, da Griechenland nach 100 gelieferten Leo2 Panzern nur 20 bezahlte und danach die KMW Werke (und den deutschen Staat) weitere Zahlungen verweigerte. Zuerst
wurde die Griechische Regierung normal von KMW angemahnt, aber nachdem Griechenland auch Ersatzteile und Bergepanzer bestellte und die ausstehende Summe 400 Mio Euro überschritt - wurde die Deutsche Regierung eingeschaltet...........sogar unsere Angela Merkel schaltete sich ein.

Diese Infos habe ich von Bekannten bei EADS, aus der deutschen Financial Times und dem Tagespiegel:http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/art771,2542187

Aus dem Artikel geht auch heraus, dass Griechenland dieses Gebaren nicht nur bei U-Booten und Panzern anwendet - sondern auch bei Patrouillenbooten, Torpedos und anderen Rüstungsartikeln.

Griechenland hat massive Zahlungsschwierigkeiten, dass wird auch aus den Informationen der Währungsunion ersichtlich - Griechenland stand mit der Neuverschuldung und der Inflation immer am schlechtesten in der EU dar.

Die Beschuldigungen der Mängel bei den AIP 214 U-Booten ist eine "PR-Waffe" um den Preis zu drücken und die Zahlungen aufzuschieben. Diese "Ente" wurde dann von anderen Zeitungen kopiert und führte zu einem Imageschaden für Deutschland, obwohl die Griechen einfach nur kein Geld hatten um ihr Spielzeug zu bezahlen.

Hinweis: Ist es nicht so, dass das U-Boot eh in griechischen Werften gebaut wurde bzw. zu grossen Teil mit griechischen Involvierung? Wenn das Uboot Macken hat......egal.....ich denke ihr alle versteht meinen Denkansatz!

2) Koreanische Deal

In Südkorea kopierte eine grosse Tageszeitung diese Meldung und scheuchte einige Personen in der Regierung auf. Die "griechische Zeitungsente" machte der HDW Werft einige Probleme in Korea. Obwohl die koreanische Zeitung behauptete das koreanische Tester der Regierung hätten diese Kritik geäußert, wurde diese Meldung später vom koreanische Partner ROTAM und der Regierung verneint, aber der Schaden war geschehen.


3) HDW Vorgaben

Es kann natürlich auch sein, dass die HDW Werft in ihrem Prospekt einfach zu ideale Angaben gemacht hat und diese "Fakten" von einigen Bestellern sehr wörtlich genommen werden. Laut meinem Bekannten bei EADS wurden für Griechenland die Schwankungen des U-Bootes für das Mittelmeer angegeben.....die Frage ist ob die Griechen die Schwankungen auf offener See erwartet haben? Natürlich arbeitet man in Prospekten mit Werten - welche immer besser dastehen als die Produkte aus Frankreich, Spanien, Schweden etc.

Im Falle von Pakistan glaube ich an Nachwirkungen der "griechischen Zeitungsente" und an ein Druckmittel wegen den Zahlungen - Ländern außerhalb der EU bekommen kein so breites Zahlungsziel wie Griechenland

Meine Meinung:
Natürlich will die deutsche Rüstungsindustrie ihre Produkte international vermarkten, aber man sollte sich nicht von Griechenland sich vor den Bug schiessen lassen. Unsere Regierung ist auch zu nett - die Franzosen hätten offiziel so ein Land kritisiert oder einfach gekonnt hinterlistig rethorisch griechenland bloss gestellt.

Die Türken haben letzte Woche wurde mit der HDW Werft eine VEreinbarung über 6 U-Boote der 214 Klasse getroffen. Die Koreaner und Türken werden sicherlich Ihre Schulden in einem angemessenen Zeitrahmen bezahlen.

Laut meinen Bekannten bei EADS hat Griechenland ihre Iris-T Lenwaffen, bestellt bei der deutschen Firma DIEHL wohl auch nicht voll bezahlt und ebenso stehen andere Projekte auch auf der liste der offenen Rechnung. 1 Milliarde Euro Schulden.......dieses Geld könnten HDW, Blohm+Voss und KMW gut gebrauchen.

Wäre mal schön, wenn ein Journalist bei Spiegel sich diesem Thema annehmen würde - wer etwas bestellt, dann muss er es bezahlen und sollten Mängel vorhanden sein, dann kann man diese immer klären. Just my 2 cents!

grüsse

Alan






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

lol them bankrupt greeks

*******************************

^sooner and later becouse of greece europes going to be bankrupt lol


my cool turkish flag wolf sig

so it has been established that there was something actually wrong with Papa and was probably patched up beyond operational use...

anyways this suits both sides.

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

^^

lol yea sure, the only defect here is the "psychological" one by the greeks




the iris-t missiles are also unpaid yet, this lines up in great greek tradition in not paying for their weapons LOL









Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

The fact that we rejected PAPA but accepted the other 3 plus 1 new one (to be ordered), plus upgrades for the older subs, all from the same HDW, means that this "no can pay" story was BS excuses....

Lets see if they can actually sell the "test platform" PAPA to someone else... if anyone wants that death trap...

and you really believe that you will order a new one?

how naive can one be? LOL






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

Greeks need to shut-up and pay thier debts or build thier own subs. Unfortunately the latter is impossible as Greeks are too lazy by nature....

said the paki immigrant...

VaGina,did i hurt your feelings?oh what a shame.
you didnt come to discuss and debate but came here to flame.that is why i said what i said and will continue to fist fuk you every time i see you trying your bullshiit theatrics.
and yes my father is a cross dresser.when he wasnt wearing his suit and making millions he was wearing his uniform and killing turks you italian wannabe.
and as for you,you are living proof that females can get pregnant from having un protected anal sex!,you ass'ol

Greece should pay and deal with her corupt politicians. Otherwise your country would act like a banana republic, for example like turkey. LOL

Anyway when they are not satisfied with this Sub, we should give them some hundred Marders from our huge stockpiles as gift and the problem will be solved easily.

It was no good deal from our Angela Merkelchen to give 300 used Leo-2 to turkey, for so little money. The turks not even bought the new Leo-2s. May be the Greeks are angry about this. But anyway contract is contract and schnaps is schnaps. They must pay.

LOL

Just a few weeks ago hellenic navy did orders worth 400 million euros from UK.


So,it is not about money but about a faulty submarine.
Germans are not the same enginier masters their were some decades ago,lol.
Just take a look at K130,A400,PUMA,NH90 etc,etc problems.
Fix the problems krauts!
Then you will get your money.

"Germans are not the same enginier masters their were some decades ago"

Yes thats true. And Greeks are not the same they were....hm 2000 years ago. Some people say, most of today´s Greeks are just converted Turks and Greece is a banana republic like turkey.

Turkish bus (Temsa) of a German tourism company (Zimmermann) in Mannheim



The "E.U. - Turkey Customs Union" will play into Turkey's hands within time

Swarm...

Swaaaaaarm........

SWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARM.....................

@Whitesoldier

Actually it is the opposite.
Modern turks are converted greeks and armenians.


Btw,most of modern germans are nothing more than 50% russian bastards.

The present-day Greeks are the descendants of the tellaks and köçeks in the Ottoman Empire

Modern greeks;



modern turks;

Modern Gayreeks

greeks are the most gayest people on this ****in planet

_______________________________________________________

You guys are are flamming stupid dickheads. Can never have an intelligent conversation. Always about gays. You must all be very insecure about your manleness. Crypto fags.

"You don't get any more gay than Greece"



I laughed so much the first time I heard that quote, it made my day

"I laughed so much the first time I heard that quote, it made my day"
==================================

coz eventually you found a place for your holidays?