The cost of democracy in Afghanistan ten UK lives


Published Date: 28 July 2009
By EDDIE BARNES
AT THE expense of ten British lives, several hundred thousand rounds of ammunition and a deep political backlash at home, and with the promise that more hard fighting is still to come, UK forces yesterday ended Operation Panther's Claw, the powerful push into the Taleban's heartland Helmand province.
The five-week campaign, in which 3,000 allied soldiers secured a part of Helmand the size of Arran, was deemed a success by British commanders, who said a large proportion of the 80,000 Afghans who live there now had the choice to take part in democratic elections next month. But there were warnings last night that, with little detail on how many Taleban fighters had been killed or captured, many insurgents might have simply "melted" away, biding their time before they seek to re-enter the region.

Military experts warned the Taleban would now switch to the tactics deployed by insurgents in Iraq, using kidnappings, suicide-bombs and sniper attacks as their method of attack.

They said the success or failure of the mission now lay in maintaining order in the area, a triangular zone between the towns of Lashkar Gah and Gereskh.

It had been pinpointed for assault because it was one of the few remaining Taleban strongholds in the province, from where they had launched repeated attacks with relative impunity in recent months.

The lush area is also a crucial part of Afghanistan's "green zone", the irrigated agricultural region where poppy production is at its highest.

The cost of the operation in British lives rose again yesterday, as the Ministry of Defence confirmed that a solider from the Light Dragoons had died while on vehicle patrol in Lashkar Gah province. Together with the separate death yesterday of a solider from the 5th Regiment Royal Artillery in the Sangin district of Helmand, it takes the total number of British fatalities to 191.

Reflecting on the heavy casualties incurred during the assault, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said it has been "one of the most difficult summers" since troops went into Afghanistan. But he said the soldiers had not died in vain.

"What we have actually done is make land secure for about 100,000 people. What we've done is push back the Taleban and what we've done also is to start to break that chain of terror that links the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan to the streets of Britain," he said.

The news that Operation Panther's Claw had ended came as Foreign Secretary David Miliband talked about stepping up efforts to negotiate directly with "moderate" Taleban elements.

One senior government source claimed the "overwhelming majority" of Taleban fighters could be persuaded to switch sides, saying it was a "criminal waste" that more approaches to low and mid-ranking Taleban commanders in the past had not been taken up.

But last night, Mr Miliband ruled out negotiating with the Taleban's leader. He said: "Mullah Omar is named in Resolution 1267 of the UN as an international terrorist. He's made his choice for global jihad."

Ministers are hoping that the region cleared during the operation will stabilise.

In a briefing yesterday, Brigadier Tim Radford, Commander Task Force Helmand, declared Operation Panther's Claw a success, but gave an insight into the extraordinary dangers faced by British troops as they attacked the heavily fortified area.

In one case, a battle group of the Light Dragoons who broke through Taleban lines at Spin Masjed found 55 dug-in IEDs (improvised explosive devices), and faced 53 separate attacks from insurgents equipped with small arms or rocket-propelled grenades. The group were unable to lie prone on the ground in the face of the fire because, in the sweltering heat, the temperature of the earth was too hot.

Brigadier Radford praised the "most incredible courage and fortitude" of his troops.

He claimed the British forces had "inflicted heavy losses" on the Taleban, "both physically and psychologically", adding: "We have seen a number of them give up and flee the area as a result."

However, he admitted: "There will be some that simply melt back into the local population and so, for us, the threat continues to bubble beneath the surface. Over time, we must build on what has already been achieved to eliminate the threat completely, and that will take time."

Lieutenant-Colonel Nick Richardson, spokesman for Task Force Helmand, said the offensive had already born fruit. He said: "We have encountered very few insurgents on the last leg. This is a very positive sign."

However, experts warned that, even though the operation had achieved its short-term objective of clearing the Taleban from the area, its long-term success remained in the balance.

Professor Michael Clarke, the director of the Royal United Services Institute, a leading defence think tank, said British troops now faced an Iraqi-style mission, where they would be holding territory against guerrilla attacks.

He said: "It's not difficult to chase the Taleban out of an area. They don't stand and fight. They fight and then disappear. The difficulty will be whether they can stop them coming back.

"The Taleban are not going to attack directly. You find people infiltrating the region disguised as farmers or women wearing burkas. It could be very difficult for the troops. You could get civilians looking like Taleban, or somebody driving too fast at a checkpoint. Do you open fire?"

Colonel Bob Stewart, a former United Nations commander in Bosnia, said: "One of the worrying things is just how many Taleban have we killed? They (the MoD] don't know. How many prisoners have been taken? They don't know. How much damage have they done to the Taleban? The answer is they don't know.

But Peter Felstead, editor of Jane's Defence Weekly said the operation had been a success. He said: "If they can hold ahead of the election, then they can do all the hearts and minds stuff. There are more boots on the ground, and that is what is needed."

MOST people think the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable and want British troops pulled out, according to a poll by ComRes. The public mood is rapidly switching against the war, with 52 per cent of voters wanting troops out of the war-torn country immediately the poll for the Independent last night showed. Just 43 per cent disagreed with withdrawing soldiers now.

COMMANDERS SPEAK OUT

COMMANDING officers of the British troops involved in Operation Panther's Claw have described their experiences over the past five weeks. Here are extracts from their accounts.

Lieutenant Colonel Stephen Cartwright, commanding officer of The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland.

"It has been an immense operation emotionally and physically exhausting, but exhilarating at the same time I am certain that everyone in the Battle Group will look back to an extraordinary operation when we did our jobs in the most demanding environment."

Lieutenant Colonel Doug Chalmers, commanding officer of 1st Battalion the Welsh Guards.

"The population is slowly gaining in confidence and we are starting to see the number of shops increase along with the variety of items for sale These significant gains have been secured at a high cost in terms of lives and injuries to the Battle Group. But the sense of achievement is palpable and this does make the sacrifices easier to bear. They deserve a chance and we are giving it to them."

Lieutenant Colonel Gus Fair, commanding officer of The Light Dragoons.

"This was the most intense fighting over a protracted period I have experienced in my 20 years in the Army. The men, women and equipment delivered more than we had any right to expect. The conditions could barely have been more testing and I am humbled by the extraordinary bravery, determination and resilience that I witnessed"


http://www.scotsman.com/latestnews/The-cost-of-democracy-in.5498211.jp




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

YOU MUST TO BE JOKING!!!

What DEMOCRACY has to do with ANYTHING in Afghanistan????

They should shoot people writing these craps... It is worst than Goebbels...



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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

As always, Yag, you are entitled to your views no matter how ill informed they may be.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

people fight in A_stan to save freedom (outside of A_stan, essentially, as it has never existed there an' we have to stop them the steal our one)




STOP ISLAMIZATION

Why doesn't UK fight for democracy in Saudi Arabia? or in Kuwait? They are also non-democratic regimes and finance Talibans in many ways ...

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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

Saudis pay heavy money to uk and usa PR companies and politicians

look at the list of those financed Blair, Brown, Clinton, Bush and Obama political campaigns


STOP ISLAMIZATION

dear oh dear DEMOCRACY AND AFGHANISTAN LOL what next provost its a nation in a civil war between pathan fundamentalists and tajik turkish and hazari shiite nationalists ie the so called democratic governemnt all of whom are war lords as for drugs and WOMENS RIGHTS WELL the number of women commiting suicide by burning themselves is up 240%

"Democracy" in the Western sense will never come to muslim lands.

The only way it can ever come: capture all imams/sheiks/muftis, temporal leaders and force them to convert to any religion except Islam. Islam is about submission to a totalitarian all encompassing worldview not democracy.

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Perhaps Iran, with the past protests against fraudulent elections reveals the fact the under Islamism it could be disension. Maybe democracy could live and flourish in Islamic countries. But the change HAS to be endogenous. No way American or British scum could teach lessons of anything while they only just worried about extracting oil from these territories.

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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

I love Western naivety concerning eastern cultures. They write about democracy the way the Soviets wrote about spreading communism. The problem is the SAVAGES who call these countries home have no comprehension of Western philosophy. They no better understand communism than they understand democracy. You might as well be talking Klingon to them when you use these words. The Western educated Afghans you put in power there would be KILLED in 10 minutes on the street if it wasnt for Western military support. They are not regarded as legitimate by the local Afghans. 10 years into Afghanistan and you've achieved even less than Russia did. At least we did the universe a favor and cut their birthrate.

Well so we know what the cost is, but what is the benefit to Britain of "democracy in Afghanistan?"

F.uck an eye for an eye. You take my eye, and I will kill you, and all those you care about. That is our policy.

You'd be better off mining the border to cut down on illegal migrants heading out of Afghanistan. With their virus like rate of reproduction it would at least fence them in so they can only continue to destroy their own country and not aid in the destruction of others. The Tajiks and Uzbeks are little better. All three dirt balls are a blight on Europe.

Democracy is neither food, nor water; it is not necessary. "Democracy," "freedom," "liberty," "equality," all ideas that the Western world has fetishized.

Go fight for democracy in Cuba, North Korea, and places in Africa that need it more than even Afghanistan.

The Afghans did not ask you to fight for them.

At the end everyone only does it if there is something in it for them.

Britain is nothing more than an American poodle.

The same people you ruled over own you now, payback is a b.....




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The Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was not crucified on the cross. They believe that he was raised to the heavens by the Lord and the Lord put someone (the Lord made him look like Jesus) in Jesus spot. There will be a day when Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) will return to this world. He will return not as a prophet but as a follower of Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). Upon his arrival all the world's Christians will become Muslims. After some time the whole world will become Muslim for the Lord has said the whole world will taste Islam. I can't wait for that day. Indeed only someone so great can bring something so beautiful.

Long live the great Muslim people.
Long live the great Muslim nations.

the british propaganda sucks long floppy donkey dick






Napoleon auf St. Helena: "Hätte der Himmel gewollt, dass ich als deutscher Fürst geboren wäre und hätten Sie mich einmal zu Ihrem Kaiser gewählt und ausgerufen so scheint mir noch Heute, dass Sie nie von mir abgefallen wären und ich Heute nicht hier sitzen müsste."

Democracy, that's hilarious.

Nevertheless, the benefits to the UK, the rest of NATO and most of the world are obvious.

One less safehaven for terrorists. That's the main reason they're there.

If your country becomes a failed state ruled by terrorist psychos, then you can't complain if it's invaded.

Spider, you make far too much sense to be listened to. I can't wait for our resident Argentine agitator to take you on. Yag seems to believe that any action supported by the US is, by definition, an act of the devil.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

Stop talking about me, Mikepotatoe1. You have a crush on me. Get a Life, please.

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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

Nevertheless, the benefits to the UK, the rest of NATO and most of the world are obvious.
One less safehaven for terrorists. That's the main reason they're there.
If your country becomes a failed state ruled by terrorist psychos, then you can't complain if it's invaded.

I agree, but where does 'democracy' fit in? Right now Afghanistan has got'democracy' and say China doesn't, yet it is definitely Afghanistan that has the bigger 'terrorist breeding ground' problem. Democracy in muzzie lands is not the solution to muzzie terrorism. Bringing the heavy hand of law and order to muzzie lands is the solution to muzzie terrorism. We're spending heavily on establishing 'democracy' in Afghanistan whereas what we should really be focusing on is making sure that any bad apple that pops up gets smashed back down hard and pulverized.



F.uck an eye for an eye. You take my eye, and I will kill you, and all those you care about. That is our policy.

"Right now Afghanistan has got'democracy'"

D'you think that Afghanistan has got democracy because there are elections? If you say so, then Venezuela is even a better democracy than US. Democracy took centuries in Western Europe to be adopted. Not just free elections but a combo of measures. Just after WWII there were a widespread adoption of the system. Why be so hard with a peasants' country that more centuries lived in feudalism? Trying to impose "democracy" in Afghanistan will increase the hate in Western culture. Trying to impose "democracy" in Afghanistan is an excuse for upgrading and testing military hardware by the European community and USA. The so-called "terrorist nest", if they would really care, had been destroyed several years ago. But that would cut budget on "weapons" and on "terror propaganda", so there useful idiots that continue to spread the desease online "remembering sep 11" and looking for terrorists all the time... but all of this is pure crap.



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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

NATO needs Afghanistan to stop being a failed state, so that its no longer a safe haven for terrorists. But military intervention is only a short term fix. (unless they're planing to stay there forever.)

Long term solution to terrorism in the region is economic development. And that's where democracy comes in, because in their view its the best system to achieve that.

IMO, they should focus on building a really powerful afghan military first, and go from there.

False -- the only long term no solution to terrorism:
NO MORE MUSLIMS = NO MORE ISLAM = NO MORE TERROR

All Western nations with muslim minority must make this minority into a *NON-MUSLIM MINORITY* - they can become atheist, Hindu, Christian, Jewish any religion but Islam. That is the only way to stop terrorism. Terrorism is from Islamic source materials like Shahih Bukhari, Koran, Sira, etc., terrorism is in accord with the example of Muhammed and Islamic history and sources.


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Html Website:http://idfspokesperson.com/
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That's ridiculous. Terrorism is a tactic used. It is no more Muslim than I am.




Provost

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States 1924-1929

Well everything you write is ridicilous, in my opinion.

Weekly Jihad Report
July 25 - July 31 Jihad Attacks:
46
Dead Bodies:
165
Critically Injured:
37

Monthly Jihad Report
July 2009 Jihad Attacks:
207
Countries:
25
Religions:
5
Dead Bodies:
838
Critically Injured:
2304




( A woman picks through what's left of her home after the Religion of Peace swept through Northern Nigeria last week, leaving over 700 dead. Islamists slit the throats of some Christians and hacked others to death. )

Source:http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

That site is the antidote for people who believe islam does not condone, justify and perpetrate terrorism from its source materials.

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Support for the IDF against the hordes of Mohammed:
Html Websitehttp://idfspokesperson.com/
Youtube Channelhttp://www.youtube.com/idfnadesk

Discount from that figure the self-attacks organized by CIA and MI6 ....

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"Las Malvinas fueron, son y serán Argentinas"

I do not think M-16 and CIA are so powerful as to cause 13,700 muslim terrorist attacks since 9/11. But afterall you are one useless rabid anti-Western Argentinian.

Sig:
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Support for the IDF against the hordes of Mohammed:
Html Website:http://idfspokesperson.com/
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/idfnadesk