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"Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010 at 6:50 AM

Dienekis  (Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Turks face integration challenges in Germany

By Mike Wereschagin
PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, January 24, 2010

BERLIN -- In the vestibule of Germany's largest mosque, identity is complicated.

Zehra Yilmaz says her German passport will get her into a voting booth on election day, but her Turkish name and Muslim head scarf kept her out of apartments she tried to rent. She has lived in Germany since she was 2, but her home has been in Turkish enclaves segregated from the rest of Germany by language, culture and a mutual belief that one day the foreigners would go home.

"I'm not really Turkish, and I'm not really German," says Zehra Yilmaz, 46.

Inside the European Union's most populous country, a parallel society has grown. Muslim immigrants, mostly Turkish, flooded into Germany beginning in the 1960s, recruited by companies to augment the post-war work force. Yilmaz's father planned to stay five years, enough time to save enough for a car and washing machine. The government granted them entry as guest workers.

"The first generation came at a time when the economy was booming, and they expected to make money and go back. That hasn't happened," said Jochen Hippler, a political science and Middle Eastern studies professor at Duisburg-Essen University.

Clustered in neighborhood enclaves, such as Marxloh in Duisburg and Kreuzberg in Berlin, the children and grandchildren of that first immigrant wave grew up in Germany without ever attaining citizenship. Until 2000, German law defined citizenship by ethnicity, rather than a person's place of birth.

Integration efforts began in earnest only recently, after the third generation of immigrants was born. Hampering those efforts is a distrust of Muslims heightened by the 9/11 attacks, an ethnic German population that abides foreigners warily, and an unwillingness among many in Turkish communities to break with their families and give up Turkish citizenship to become legally German.

Kreuzberg's central market is emblematic. On Fridays, the Muslim holy day, the market bustles with Turkish-speaking shoppers. Small Turkish flags flutter from an apartment window above Kaiser Market, a grocery store. Deli signs are written in Turkish.

"You think, 'Am I in Istanbul?' " said Marcus Ferman, 35, of Berlin. It's not German, he said, and it worries him. "When you come to a country, you should not keep all of where you came from. ... There are (children) going to school who cannot speak a word of German. This is very troubling."

The communities are insulated, with unemployment rates twice the national average and lower levels of education. They are home to people who feel unwanted by the country in which they live. It's the sort of thing that makes counter-terrorism experts nervous. Though none of those who planned the 9/11 attacks were Turkish, the core group -- the Hamburg Cell -- plotted from an apartment in Germany.

"We must consider extremists from visa-waiver countries, who are merely an e-ticket away from the United States," FBI Director Robert Mueller told the Council on Foreign Relations in February.

OPPOSITION RUNS DEEP

Much of Europe struggles with its growing Muslim population. The reactions have been sporadic. Switzerland amended its constitution in November to ban construction of minarets. Riots in French Muslim communities erupted in 2005. British academics warn some universities and neighborhoods have become breeding grounds for extremism.

Turkey's candidacy to join the European Union encountered staunch opposition, including from German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Some see it as a challenge to the traditional notion of Europe, just as the Kreuzberg market seems un-German to Ferman.

Defining what constitutes German, however, gets tricky, Hippler said.

"A German banker in Frankfurt, neo-Nazi skinheads in East Germany, punk bands in Berlin, liberal academics in German big cities, ... Pope Benedict, and so on. They are all German. What exactly is it they have in common culturally? And the truth is, I couldn't tell you, besides the language," Hippler said.

Germany has been spared the clashes that happen elsewhere in Europe. Local disputes over the building of mosques in places such as Cologne and East Berlin have not coalesced into an organized national opposition to Islam. German culture accounts for some of this, Ferman said.

"Germans are not the type to take to the streets," he said. "But it is in their hearts."

DISTRACTING DEBATE

The state of North Rhine-Westphalia, which encompasses Duisburg and Merkez Mosque, has handled integration better than most places in Germany. Its history helped. Here, in the former center of Germany's steel and coal industries, immigrants seeking work came from Poland and Italy, as well as Turkey.

The state's officials were among the first to allow public schools to teach courses on Islam alongside those on Christianity and Judaism. Preschoolers can take free German language classes. A neo-Nazi protest of Merkez's October 2008 opening was greeted by a far larger counter-protest led by the Catholic and Protestant churches.

About 70 percent of the country's 4 million Muslims came from Turkey, a secular country.

"You have people here who are Muslims, but who are Muslims (in a similar way) to being Protestant or Catholic here," Hippler said. "They are technically members of a religion, but they are not very interested in practicing that."

Religious debates distract people from the harder, costlier changes the country needs to make, he said.

"Jobs and housing and education and language (classes) cost money. Talking about religion is cost-free," Hippler said. "Framing migration policy in terms of religion is not a smart thing to do in a secular country. If you want to talk about migration, talk about migration. Don't talk about God."

CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE

Children born in Germany since 2000 have an automatic right to citizenship, but they must decide between ages 18 and 23. If they choose to be German, they must give up citizenship in their parents' country.

Ken Eis, 23, is caught in the middle. Born in Nigeria to a German mother and Nigerian father, his mother's citizenship gives him the option to be German. But the Kreuzberg resident, who has lived in Germany since he was 14, doesn't plan to stay much longer.

"This is one of the few nations that still holds on to its nationalism," said Eis, who is unemployed. He plans to return to Nigeria to try to find a job. "I don't see a future for me in Germany."

Yilmaz knows the feeling.

"When I was 14, I was crying in my pillow at night, 'Why am I not German?' The Germans didn't accept me as a whole German girl. I didn't wear a head scarf at this time. I wore normal German clothes. But I have a foreign name. I am a foreigner for them," she said. In her frustration, she vowed to return to her family's roots.

Then she visited Ankara, her family's ancestral city, and saw how different gender norms affected the country's women.

"They are not like me," Yilmaz said. "In Turkey, I have no rights as a woman. I can't be active as a woman. ... My home is in Germany. It is in Duisburg."


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_663822.html


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[linked image]

Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

nappyheadedHO
(Login JeuneTurk)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 1:54 PM 

"""""About 70 percent of the country's 4 million Muslims came from Turkey, a secular country.

"You have people here who are Muslims, but who are Muslims (in a similar way) to being Protestant or Catholic here," Hippler said. "They are technically members of a religion, but they are not very interested in practicing that."""""""

spot on

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Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 3:18 PM 

i suppose quite a few kemalists fall in that category. i've met a turkish lady that was wearing a cross just to annoy her pro-AKP neighbors in Izmir...she was not christian nor religious whatsoever.

--------------------------------------------
[linked image]

Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login schlawa)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 3:43 PM 

"Until 2000, German law defined citizenship by ethnicity, rather than a person's place of birth."

Yeah the good old "blood law" happy.gif

People often forget that ... and I have to say, we have made good progress since the year 2000 to change things into a better direction. Of course it takes time, but I can see progress.

And thanks to the author of this article to including my point that Turkey is a secular country whos citizens are very well able to understand that state and religion are to be seperated.


QUOTE:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yilmaz knows the feeling.

"When I was 14, I was crying in my pillow at night, 'Why am I not German?' The Germans didn't accept me as a whole German girl. I didn't wear a head scarf at this time. I wore normal German clothes. But I have a foreign name. I am a foreigner for them," she said. In her frustration, she vowed to return to her family's roots.

Then she visited Ankara, her family's ancestral city, and saw how different gender norms affected the country's women.

"They are not like me," Yilmaz said. "In Turkey, I have no rights as a woman. I can't be active as a woman. ... My home is in Germany. It is in Duisburg."
"

Thanks again for directly supporting my opinion voiced in this thread happy.gif:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/242894/thread/1263874847/last-1264259665/A+50-year-old+Turkish+man+sentenced+to+life+in+Germany+for+honor+killing


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A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

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This message has been edited by schlawa on Jan 24, 2010 3:50 PM


 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login Mikki_Ananas)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 6:13 PM 

"They are technically members of a religion, but they are not very interested in practicing that."

these are mostly alevi turks and kurds. this german thinks that people that dont visit mosques do not practice their faith. there is a higher percentage of alevis among turks in germany than there is in turkey. sunni turks are quite devout people in germany as they are in anatolia. as you can see in the gt forum part, these turks have quite a lot of sympathies for their umma brothers and their fights.

what i really wonder about is how many americans have an interest in such news.



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xtanbul
(Login istanbul_since_1453)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 7:05 PM 

kurds are by far the most fundamentalist group in Turkey or even the middle east. sure they do not follow orthodox islam but a rather degenerated version of islam with elements of zoroastrianism. kurds, "muslim" or not perform honor killings. you can't see that in other groups.

---

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xtanbul
(Login istanbul_since_1453)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 24 2010, 7:10 PM 

Also enough with this integration crap. There are Turkish-German porn stars ffs, you can't get more German than that.

---

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nappyheadedHO
(Login SWORDofREVENGE)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 27 2010, 3:09 PM 

lol

 
 

Coalde
(Login coalde)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

January 31 2010, 1:35 PM 

"Zehra Yilmaz says her German passport will get her into a voting booth on election day, but her Turkish name and Muslim head scarf kept her out of apartments she tried to rent. She has lived in Germany since she was 2, but her home has been in Turkish enclaves segregated from the rest of Germany by language, culture and a mutual belief that one day the foreigners would go home. "

It's no different in France (and I suspect the rest of Europe), I recall reading an article (I think it was in The Economist) where a journalist submitted a series of identical CVs to many different posted job openings, with the only difference being that one had a "French" sounding name and the other had a "Muslim" sounding name...the one with the "French" name received something like 3 or 4 times as many interview requests.

It just goes to prove that governments can only go so far in promoting equality, eventually it ends up being a personal decision of individuals. Oddly if individuals who make up the majority or dominate racial "category" in a society do not do this on their own, the government usually compensates with some heavy handed approach (i.e hiring quotas) that breeds resentment amongst the majority. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease, and like most diseases easiest to treat early on.



"Now it gets psychological, friends."
Capt. Lt. Henrich Lehmann - Das Boot 1981

 
 

Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 1 2010, 11:00 AM 

"the one with the "French" name received something like 3 or 4 times as many interview requests."

quite naturally...

--------------------------------------------
[linked image]

Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 

nappyheadedHO
(Login yasin22)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 2 2010, 3:50 AM 

xtanbul are you saying that all kurds are fundamentalists

[linked image]

 
 

Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Typical turkGayish court case:

February 3 2010, 7:02 AM 

Father gets six years, brother released in honor killing

A court has sentenced a man from Diyarbakr to six years in prison for killing his daughter six years ago, but has released the womans brother, who also participated in the honor killing, the Sabah daily reported on Tuesday.

The incidents leading up to the murder started when 18-year-old Gülseren Tanrkut was raped by her stepbrother. When other members of the family found out about the rape, they decided to marry her off to another man. Upon learning that his wife was not a virgin, the husband began to beat Gülseren, who then returned to her familys house. Following her return, people in their neighborhood began spreading rumors, implying she was unchaste. To restore the familys honor, her family decided to kill her.

Hasan Tanrkut, Gülserens father, strangled her with a cable while his son Mehmet held her legs to prevent her from fighting back as his other son, 12-year-old dris, witnessed the incident unfold. The father then poured molten nylon on her face to make her unrecognizable and put her body in a sack before ordering his sons to throw the body away.

The murder came to light after Gülserens mother discovered the body and recognized her daughter. driss testimony revealed what had happened, but the statement was not officially recorded because he was a minor at the time. Mehmet, 15, tried to take responsibility for the crime, claiming that he had warned his sister to be careful and not disgrace the family but that she did not heed his warnings but instead harshly rebuked. dris later recanted his testimony.

A Diyarbakr penal court sentenced both father and son to life imprisonment, as stipulated in the former Turkish Penal Code (TCK), for murder and later reduced the fathers sentence to 30 years for good behavior and Mehmets sentence to 15 years due to his age, while the mother and dris were released.

The Supreme Court of Appeals reversed the ruling in accordance with the new TCK, which was introduced in 2005 and carries a life sentence for honor killings while changing provisions that address unjust provocation in an attempt to prevent the use of unjust provocation as a defense in cases of honor killings.

Hearing the case for the second time in recent months, the court sentenced the father and son to aggravated life imprisonment; however, the punishment was later decreased to 24 years in prison each. With further reductions for good behavior, the fathers punishment was decreased to 20 years, while the sons dropped to six years, eight months. Since Mehmet has already been in prison for more than six years, he was released. The father will serve six more years in prison.

The court ruled that Gülserens lifestyle, considered to have dishonored her family, and her dismissal of her brothers warnings as well as speaking harshly with him amounted to unjust provocation, thus leading to a reduction in the sentences. The Supreme Court of Appeals upheld the court ruling on Dec. 10.

03 February 2010, Wednesday
TODAYS ZAMAN STANBUL


http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-200437-100-father-gets-six-years-brother-released-in-honor-killing.html

--------------------------------------------
[linked image]

Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login fightclub20)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 4 2010, 7:38 PM 

sure they do not follow orthodox islam but a rather degenerated version of islam with elements of zoroastrianism
-------------------------
Xtanbul, Zoroasterians don't in anyways practice honor killings. This if anything is an islamic practice that goes back to the times of the Nomadic Arabs.

------------------------------------
"A drowning man is not troubled by rain" Persian Proverb
[linked image]

"You should not be afraid of the ideology but of the determination and will of the men behind it"

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login ELWAPO)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 4 2010, 8:16 PM 

Well of course turcos face intergration challenges in Deutschland its the same thing
as bringing a monkey home from the zoo! DUH!!

Sincerely Yours ELWAPO.


Cheers. [linked image]

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login Prime_evil)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 5 2010, 3:37 AM 

It's no different in France (and I suspect the rest of Europe), I recall reading an article (I think it was in The Economist) where a journalist submitted a series of identical CVs to many different posted job openings, with the only difference being that one had a "French" sounding name and the other had a "Muslim" sounding name...the one with the "French" name received something like 3 or 4 times as many interview requests.

And?

Did they send a CV with a "Chinese" sounding name, a "English" sounding name and a "African" sounding name (Christian african) to compare?

All it proves is people think Muslim are lazy freeloading scum, which is quite correct.

 
 
Russell Coight
(Login CheeseBurger007)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 5 2010, 4:01 PM 


I don't see what the problem here is.

Turks in Germay refuse to be assimilated by the Germans just like how 1 million Turks in Bulgaria have been doing the same since 1915.

They want to talk Turkish, retain their identity and keep their culture pure.

This should be respect.

I hope to see current 4 million Turkish population of Germany to double in at least couple decades.

Turkish birth rates in Germany are on the rise however German population is in decline.

After having sufficient amount of Turks within Germany, declare their own independence ala Kosovo.


Embrace Turkish Republic of Southern Germany flag

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turk_gruppe.jpg

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Deutsch-T%C3%BCrkisch.jpg

funda.jpg

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nappyheadedHO
(Login 7castle)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 5 2010, 5:04 PM 

hey dude if they want to retain culture why don;t they go to turkey ?
[linked image]

good one, isn't it ? and WHAT CULTURE ? happy.gif

[linked image]

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nappyheadedHO
(Login GER_Mark)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 5 2010, 10:01 PM 

because turkey will have a kurdish majority by then lol

[linked image]

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login ELWAPO)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 6 2010, 12:05 AM 

Abomination! [linked image]
[linked image]
Burn this bastardize Deutsche flag for what it is, abomination.

Sincerely Yours ELWAPO.

Cheers. [linked image]

 
 
nappyheadedHO
(Login schlawa)
Panzer Brigade (Germany)

Re: "Turks face integration challenges in Germany"

February 6 2010, 1:39 AM 

happy.gif

You see, some years ago no Turk would have even thought of printing their star on the German flag.
There will be no Turkey in next Worldcup, which means Turks in Germany will be singing the German anthem the next summer. And more and more Turks in Germany will carry the German flag, it will be a simple, red-black-golden sight this summer happy.gif

PS: The German net immigration rate is standing at 22.000 persons in 2009. There will maybe less Germans, but few more immigrants in Germany. It has dropped from some hundereds of thousands in the last decade. Because we now tightened the law. And you dont get money nor get invited easily here from People if you dont abide the law anymore.

At that rate, and even multiplied with the 1,7 million Turks x 2.1 children each generation compared to Germans 81,000,000 x 1,8 children ^^ we Germans are workin on it happy.gif (Turkey, whos absolute residence number in Germany is declining because more and more Turks are getting German citizenship) Turks will not even have a majority in the next 500 years happy.gif hahahahaha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany

PS: Religion: "Muslim 4%" happy.gif Good luck in "getting Germans onboard Islam " happy.gif

So lets all sing the German national anthem together with the German Fans and the German Army Corps _)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnbUR-yXpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg7UkvCwOKA&feature=related

I only saw Turks quickly putting away their red Turkish flags after the match and get home after they lost ... and than returning after getting out their black-white-red shirts happy.gif

Dresden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAO6AT54FfI&feature=related

Leipzig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJZCQ7flSB0&feature=related

Hamburg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3KvKtEUjZs&feature=related

Berlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c46byTmfAUI&feature=related

Enjoy happy.gif It will even be better this year happy.gif


---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !

[linked image]

 
 
 
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