This was my response to Rodney Braun's request for ideas to help league attendance on For the Fans by the Fans Forum. (League attendance - Are we dying the death of 1,000 cuts?)
My first suggestion that will probably never happen is that the league contracts to 24 teams. This is not necessarily based on quality of the teams but in these times we have to become "greener" and therefore smarter. The US based team and the far north teams would have to be eliminated. Spending $36,000 on travel (Far north teams, Wellington, Hamilton, Buffalo etc) as well as burning thousands of litres of diesel does not make any sense. Wex posted 2 divisions of 10 - this is where the league can start looking at options.
Division A:
Oakville
Burlington
Georgetown
Milton
Hamilton
Peel Region "South"
Brampton
Vaughan
Division B:
Kingston
Wellington
Cobourg
Peterborough
Lindsay
Bowmanville
Port Hope
Durham Region
Division C:
Aurora
Markham
St. Michaels
Newmarket
Stouffville
Toronto
North York
U/C Villanova combo (York U)
Geographically this virtually eliminates all bus travel. West stays west, East stays east and Middle stays in the middle. For the playoffs top 16 from the 3 divisions are ranked (Interlock) and away you go. Nothing is cast in stone here - just a preliminary suggestion.
Secondly, ownership needs customers in any business. Even in horrible times things still sell, albeit at lower prices. The million dollar home can be sold - just not for a million dollars. A cooperative seller may have to accept 750,000. (or less)
With this in mind it has been my opinion that 1/2 of a building's seats should be made available for season ticket subscribers at $50.00 for all regular season games - first come first served. As cash8132 points out it is no fun to play in front of empty seats. Using Aurora as an example: Sell 500 seasons tickets at $50.00 = $25,000. This money is in hand by September 1. You have just taken care of 7 room & board players for the season!
Marketing the Team: I now have a base of 500 plus walk in for all games. Rinkboards, program sales, line-up advertising, 50/50 draws, chuck-a-puck etc. now become more attractive to corporate sponsors. With a guaranteed crowd for every game it certainly is easier to get companies back in the fold to sponsor the team! Even if only 1/2 of the 500 show up on a regular basis the building is no longer "empty"
Increasing season ticket sales, eliminating buses, bigger 50/50 draws can turn a team around financially. The rivalries of the past will be re-established and hopefully new ones will develop in the future.
Also I believe that Internet and Rogers (local cable) broadcasts should be on a delay basis. This still gives the out-of-towners the opportunity to see the games but live coverage is slowly killing attendance.
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In these difficult economic times I can see anywhere from 6-8 teams asking for a "Leave of Absence" for next year. This would be a smart move on their part allowing them to step back and see if they can find another way of getting back into the game.
I think next season, with the reduced amount of teams, will be one of the best years ever in the OJHL. Think about it, anywhere from 150-200 less players playing in the league. The cream will rise to the top.
Am I dreaming?
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you are on glue.If you are north of 9 in you world you are 'out" do to greener inititives. Couch, Collingwood and Huntsville practice the hockey model you just described.Our fan base is solid. We get 500 on a regular basis.If you want contraction eliminate the teams that do not have a fan base...Aurora included.Don't hide behind reducing your carbon footprint when you obviously can't sell your product in your community!
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I agree, Huntsville has the best attendance every game and Couch is averaging over 300/game. What's Aurora"s attendance. Maybe they should be eliminated, Newmarket still does well, as does Collingwood. Clean up your own backyard.
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Sorry, I can't agree either with eliminating Collingwood, Couchiching, Seguin and Huntsville. They are all great hockey centers and with the exception of Seguin, a relatively new franchise, the others have been around a long time and all are obviously viable franchises.
Dave, in your scenario, where would you suggest these teams play? the closest league I guess would be the NOJHL, is that your suggestion?
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i think your on the money.As for huntsville collingwood etc yes it easier to sell tickets when there is no competiton within miles.Just like port hope what else is there to do in port hope but watch hockey.Hamilton burlington oakville have alot more competiton then huntsville or collingwood.Great idea Beauchamp kudos to you....
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Dave is on the money! the geographic divisions MUST go back. I am interested to hear what the reasoning would be for keeping the ridiculous current configuration.
My arguments for replacing the geographic divisions:
1) RIVALRY! how can cobourg not play port hope? how can aurora not play newmarket? This is just silly, stupid and flat out ignorant by the league to think that these rivalries are not important and can be swept under the carpet.
1b) in that, if the games are against rival teams that are close by, ie: markham/stouffvile, port hope/cobourg, newmarket/aurora, etc etc... fans will make the trip to see their team. Would I drive to hamilton to watch the waxers? the answer is hell no. first of all because (no offense to any hamilton fans i don't mean this to be mean) i do not give a rat's ass about the hamilton team. Why? because they're on the other side of the city, and therefore off my radar. and secondly, because i'm not wasting all that time, gas and money to drive to frickin hamilton for a junior hockey game. i can just watch another team that is closer playing on the same night.
2) Money. it is cheaper for teams not to have to take a bus all over the map. When i lived in Markham, my friends who played for the team would carpool to games, and the only times we took a bus was to collingwood, couch, parry sound and huntsville. carpool with a couple bucks to the kids who drive is a LOT cheaper than a bus last time i checked.
3) the players are kids. Do you really think they're going to want to come home and do homework after some stupid weeknight game on a tuesday in parry sound or a monday in buffalo? no. How about waking up for school at 7 a.m. when you only got home from huntsville at 2 a.m.? in my situation where I live, i would much rather drive to ajax or pickering on a tuesday than oakville or couchiching.
As for the three divisions, I think the league could do something like that if they chose, however there are a couple problems with your teams picked. If Newmarket and Aurora are both going to have teams, and Cobourg and Port Hope are both going to have teams, little towns like that that are so close to each other (newmarket & aurora literally border on each other, and cobourg is like 9 km from port hope or something) and then Durham to have one team i am assuming being pickering-ajax-whitby-oshawa and then a bowmanville team, i don't think that would fly. I know some teams somewhere have to go, but maybe if they did like minor hockey and had a "lakeshore" loop? Oh. and Vaughan should really be in with newmarket, aurora, stouffville, and markham, I think. they're in our area more-so than Hamilton.. but that's just me?
And I like the season seat idea. I'd be interested to see if any of the teams implement this for next year.
*I can see your five hole*
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The Knights should pair up with UCC? Looking at your comments the only issue with the Knights is the lack of quality players. That takes time to bring in the right players to build a winning organization. Even the mighty Aurora Tigers - well maybe not mighty this season, but even the Tigers started somehwere. Look at the Huntsville franchise about 6 or 7 years ago, Port Hope when they started out, and the Bramalea saga of the past 3 or 4 years.
The Knights have a solidly run business plan (unlike many teams in this league), they are fiscally responsible and play by the rules - maybe thats why they dont win games? Ownership knew the first 3 to 5 years would be tough in attracting the right talent, but they dont need people like you determining that maybe they should join with UCC or anyone else for that matter.
So just because the Knights do have a superior record, dont start making comments that contraction or combining with others are necessary. The Knights meet all of your other ' criteria', and have a budget that ranks at least in the middle of the pack, maybe higher.
Maybe you should maybe worry more about the tigers trying to take 1 game from the Otters.
mg
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Isn't it amazing how everyone can't wait to "trash" the Tigers, probably one of the most successful Junior "A" franchises in Canada, or anyone that is associated with Aurora, when they don't agree on an issue.
MG, what the hell is the Tiger/Huntsville series got to do with Dave's comments, he is only giving his opinion, right or wrong, you don't have to agree, but to come back with an "arrow" regarding the current Aurora/Huntsville series is a little "bush" to say the least.
When your Knights become an organization comparable to Aurora and can boast multiple Junior "A" Championships over the years including 2 RBC Championships within 4 years, then you may have the right to criticize the Tigers or their directors, until then stick to the facts and your rebuttal opinions.
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I agree with the reduction of teams but I believe the first teams to go should be those that get poor attendance.
Bramalea, North York,Streetsville,Ucc and Mississauga all had less than 100 per game average.
Obviously there is no demand for the product in those areas.
NY was a fairly good team and still could not draw.
Bramalea is just coming off a leave of absence. How many chances do you get?
I think the league should not give a leave of absence. If a team falls out that is your chance to downnsize.
Try downsizing to 32 and then reevaluate. if necessary then consider 28 or 24.
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You know it's fine to say cut the number of teams down to more realistic numbers in order to make the league stronger etc, however no one has mentioned the "legality" of doing this. I don't think that the OJHL can just up and say to a certain team or teams, that they their franchises no longer exist and they are out.
Not knowing details of any agreements etc, that each and every team has to abide by, unless a team is in direct violation of such agreements, if they do in fact exist, I think that getting rid of a team or teams from a legal standpoint would be very difficult and even more difficult if the teams involved fight the expulsion. I can see something like this being challenged in court and going on for a long period of time.
Anyone have any insight into the legal aspects of dismissing a team or teams from the OJHL?
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" however no one has mentioned the "legality" of doing this."
I said that, many times. Maybe no one mentioned it in this thread, but that is something I have brought up in the past when we talk of contraction. So many think it is just a matter of saying 'we no longer want you around so you are out.', but as SMC stated, if the owner does not want to go there is not much the league can do.
Now if several owners got together and started a different division within the league ...
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Re: 'we no longer want you around so you are out.'
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February 23 2009, 10:52 AM
'we no longer want you around so you are out.', .... You mean kind of like some (not all) moderators that host their forums with consideration ONLY for coinciding viewpoints with their own? (teehee)
Not mentioning ANY names or anything, but I would suggest that there are a few moderators that would make fantastic league executives! (teehee)
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Yes Sir ! You are most correct Oh Great One, as always.
I do believe You would be the best executive ever in the history of executives ! ! !
If You decided to run this league I do not see anyone that could stand against You Sir.
You would make every executive meeting one to remember. It would be so much better with You giving everyone an opinion they could call their own.
You could do as You always wanted and just tell the teams You do not like to go away. Yes it will be grand with You at the helm.
Hail Ceasar !
Ceasar for league President !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Support Our Troops !
Go Leafs(but not too well, we want the #1 pick) !
Go Jays !
Go Raptors !
Go Argos !
Go TFC !
WEXDOG is a Cowboys Fan ! There is always next season
09,11,01
Lest We Forget
11,11,11
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At least those teams would STILL be entitled to their opinion, as opposed to if the league operated the same way that SOME other forums operated ..... right 'Dog?
And just out of curiosity, do you have a very close friend or someone dear to you moderating one of these DICKtatorship type forums? you seem to get very defensive when the topic has been mentioned yet NO reference has been made to ANY specific forum that you MAY or MAY NOT be affiliated with! (teehee)
Chill out 'Dog, settle down, relax a little, it's NOT always about YOU, ALL of the time! (lol, exactly as you stated on Saturday night CC ...... hook ...... line ...... and sinker ..... swallowed completely ....... teehee)
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See told ya CC! Predictable as the snow in February! (teehee) .... But wait they WILL be ....
another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... and another ...... (teehee)
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Told ya CC! And now, most recently a diversionary tactic to shift the focus! ... Amazing ... (well not really) ..... but indeed predictable as hell! (teehee)
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Told ya CC! And now, most recently a diversionary tactic to shift the focus! ... Amazing ... (well not really) ..... but indeed predictable as hell! (teehee)
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Told ya CC! And now, most recently a diversionary tactic to shift the focus! ... Amazing ... (well not really) ..... but indeed predictable as hell! (teehee)
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The comment would have come (and with sarcasm as well) from anyone who had made that comment. It came from the Tigers organization - no other organization - and the response was directed to the person from that team. It was never said that the Tigers franchise was not successful, nor did it say anything about trashing the Tigers - those are your words. We all know how sucessful the Tigers have been, yet you keep reminding us.
If you read the comments it said that ' even the mighty Aurora Tigers - well maybe not this Season, started somewhere ' Then it mentioned other teams who had rough beginings and that was the comparison. And yes as the Tigers ' Director ' suggested to put the Knights and UCC together, he was informed why not. THAT IS MY OPINION, just like he has his and you have yours!
This is a free speaking forum (gee you have made that quote many times on here) so if you live by the sword, then die by the sword. Everyone has the right to comment on everyone on this forum - you do many times, and in fact you have upset many posters.
I have read many comments from you on this and other forums, and find them very interesting and do concur with you on many points. However, you have made this more than what it is. Is there something else behind all of this frustration? Everyone is out to bash the Tigers - well the Director of the Tigers threw the stone and now someone has thrown it back. If you cant take it, then dont dish it out!
I now expect many comments from you about your time and experience in the league and how you have forgotten more than i know, etc, etc.
mg
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My apologies mg. It was never my intention to slight your program or UCHC. My "thought" process - (or lack thereof) was that both programs have many positive areas with huge potential for growth and potential within the GTA. If I was contracting based on strictly winning percentage there would not be any mention of either team which at this point in time is unfair. I was not trying to "slag" either team.
Re: The North teams. This is based strictly on geographical location. For goodness sakes, Couchiching is ranked top 10 in the country. Again, it is not the win-loss, it is what makes fiscal and economic sense. Maybe a 4th division with Couch, Huntsville, Collingwood, Seguin, Orangeville and 3 other "North of Highway 9" (and no, Rinxrat, no glue here) teams is viable.
Also remember in the last 10 years Huntsville has folded and come back, Couchiching took a 1 year leave of absense, Parry Sound folded and reappeared as Seguin and Collingwood has been fighting finacial issues for some time now. Attendance may be good now but remember the recent past.
Re: Aurora attendance. It has been "lousy" for as long as I have been in this league. (10 years). As the Director of Business Operations (which I am no longer, I'll have to change my log-in) I tried many things to improve the situation. Not much luck. It has been suggested that Aurora merge with Newmarket and the same with Markham-Stouffville. Sort of a York Region North & South split. Also a possibility - who knows?
All I know is that some sort of major surgery needs to be done or this league probably will not be in 2 to 3 years. I expected the criticism, but offer suggestions. Stating that my ideas have no merit is cool - but offer up some of your own. Thanks!
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Apology accepted. As I stated to SMC there was nothing personal aginst the Tigers organization. I for one respect the sucess of your franchise and am not jealous of Aurora and their directors, etc at all nor have I ever said or thought otherwise. My point from the beginning was the Knights have taken enough of their own over the past 2 years with nothing really positive to show. Your idea to combine the Knights and UCHC in the context of contraction was frustrating to hear, thats all. So I shot the messenger, thats all. By responding it shows that the Knights organization cares, if the other teams dont respond that is up to them, maybe by them being silent they agree?
The Knights franchise are trying to suceed with a plan - a plan that will take 3 to 5 years to setup the infrastructure of the future of the franchise - scouts, recrutiment, etc. and bring the right players to the program. In 15 or 20 years I am sure they would love to have a successful program, let alone a couple of National Championships. I dont know why SMC feels that this was trashing, he has heard a lot worse from others.
The other comments you made are very interesting and I concur with many of them. But by combining or contracting teams because of their records is hardly a fair way to look at this issue, especially if the teams are in years 1 or 2.
As I am sure you know there will be an answer to what happens next year soon. In the end, we all want what is best for the league, if it means Central Divsion or not.
mg
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"Trashing" may have been a poor choice of words in this case, probably "cheap shot" would have been a better choice in referring to your "concentrate on winning one game from Huntsville" comment to Dave.
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I am so glad that You, the One and Only Leader of the Land of Tigerpaws, King of the Cage, the only opinion worth hearing, agrees with one of his lowly, but most loyal of servants(me).
I am most honoured Sire !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
I do not have anyone who moderates a forum as close to me as You ask Oh Great Ceasar.
Of except for You, Mighty Ceasar ! and Your most honoured of guests, The Duchess.
There is of course the other forum(FTFBTF) for which I over see along with Wayne and we prepare the minions before they enter the Land of Tigerpaws.
Oh Great One, what troubled soul said it was about me ?
Just give me the order and I shall see that the one who spoke that blasphemy be properly punished.
It goes without saying that it is about You and only You, Great Sire.
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Now Sire I have duties to attend. If You will allow may I pardon myself to do said duties.
I do hope I did not dissappoint.
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Hail Ceasar !
Support Our Troops !
Go Leafs(but not too well, we want the #1 pick) !
Go Jays !
Go Raptors !
Go Argos !
Go TFC !
WEXDOG is a Cowboys Fan ! There is always next season
09,11,01
Lest We Forget
11,11,11
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