Hi, I posted some time back. I am now able to retract the foreskin over my erect glans. This is nice. It's not too easy though. My frenulum is pretty short. It doesn't allow the foreskin to slide anywhere, really. When flaccid, however, foreskin may be retracted 2 inches down my 3 inch penis (again i say, flaccid). When erect, it doesn't cause the head to bend over, but it makes all the skin bunch up right under my head.
It hurts to masturbate in this condition. The tension when I pull back on base of my penis causes the frenulum to stretch and this causes me pain.
Now I have two options, do I have the simple frenoplasty in which they make slits in the frenulum, or do I stretch it?
Since this seems to be the best first hand knowledge forum out there, I'm asking you what I should do.
I'm not totally against a minor surgical procedure.
On the otherhand, if a tube of steroid cream and a few months of stretching will do the trick, I'll go with that. I just wonder if it will be a lot of work and the foreskin will only retract a little bit more. Has anyone ever gone from barely retractable to fully retractable just by stretching it?
I've read that the frenulum doesn't stretch as readily as the other foreskin.
It's not that I don't have faith in stretching, just that this is a different situation.
It isn't a different situation at all. The frenulum is a continuation of the same little band that prevented retraction. It will react in the same manner, but now you'll need to apply the tension to it directly. Grasp the end of the foreskin on the underside where the frenulum attaches and pull it out away from your body. Do it several times a day for as long as you can without making it painful.
Yes, many guys have succeeded with these methods. Whoever is telling you that the frenulum won't respond to stretching is pulling your leg. Just get busy pulling your frenulum, and you'll find out for yourself. You can do it man.
You posted "some time back" eh? Well, if you are the fellow who posted last August with a 5 mm opening in the foreskin, you are doing OK, but if you are the fellow who posted January 30th, then you are going really well and certainly have nothing to complain about!
As you describe being able to retract the foreskin much further whilst flaccid, than when erect, I have to deduce that you need to keep stretching it - in diameter - some more by the same method you have been using (fingers inside, presumably). You should recall our previous warning of the need to "over-stretch" to a degree, both in dimension and in time, to ensure that the foreskin "settles back" to just the right "fit".
That the skin "bunches up" behind the glans when erect doesn't really indicate much of itself, and isn't something "wrong" - the concept of a totally "smooth" shaft is as you should recall, one of those concepts derived from a society or "mythology" who knows only circumcision.
I am happy to concede however, that you do have a short fraenulum. If you have not been able to retract in the past, then the fraenulum cannot have been stretched naturally, so it is likely to be short in consequence - that is indeed, part of the situation of "phimosis".
It should be pretty clear that if you have stretched your foreskin, your fraenulum is nothing more - nor less - than part of your foreskin, and is able to be stretched in the same fashion - or with the slightly different technique Jim mentions and which we have illustrated so many times before.
It can be said though that the fraenulum does not stretch "as readily" as the other foreskin, insofar as it is smaller, thinner and notably, more sensitive than the other, as you have noted when doing whatever you are now doing to masturbate. Any other suggestion regarding "too difficult" or "impossible" is generally characteristic of the "fetish" sites, such as maintained by a fellow (eponymously?) called "Harmen".
We believe the approach Jim has detailed, and illustrated in foreskin.org slide 21 or more appropriately, slide 4 or even slide 28, is probably the most comfortable method to do this overall, certainly easier than stretching the foreskin proper.
Your observation about discomfort on masturbation is itself, interesting. I have to suspect, that it means you are now experimenting with a technique you were not previously. Surely if this is so, the hint is clear, that what you were doing previously is the "right" way to do it, and what you are experimenting with now, not necessarily so? I can see that being able to retract invites experimentation, but if that experimentation is unproductive, then - so be it.
Or else, your "standard" technique of masturbation just happened to consist of pulling back firmly on the penile skin such as to stretch the foreskin over the glans and provide firm encircling pressure in that manner, and that form of pressure no longer being possible, you are trying to substitute (as many do at least experimentally,) the feeling of "stretch" in the glans from the foreskin pulling back all around the edge.
I am pretty confident to suggest that "conventional" masturbation, using the looseness of the foreskin to slide it forward and back over the glans, will still work just fine, and techniques which radically differ form this, are mostly "desperation" methods characteristic of the circumcised. Incidentally, I think we all agree, that even the lubricated hand, applied to stroke the naked glans, is a particularly poor or odd simulation of the vagina.
mark (no login)
I'll agree to that
March 10 2005, 10:17 AM
J & P,
I do seem to have a stretchy foreskin. I did start jan 30
I think masturbation was mainly hurting because it was the first day I had ever retracted the foreskin over the erect glans. I still can't FREELY slide the foreskin up and down.
Everyone who tries retracting it, USE LOTION to keep it from getting stuck.
I only have sex about twice a month. Actually Valentines day was the last time. She wants me to go see a doctor to make sure I'm not going to hurt myself stretching it. I say "I don't have anything to show him quite yet. Let me stretch it some more! Otherwise he'll prob. just say circ."
Don't worry, I'm holding out against that option. She's one who prefers circ., but she likes mine, too. She wants to circ. our future son. We'll have to research it together some more to come to a conclusion. Despite my problems, I'm pretty against it. Adult phimosis is due to childhood neglect, in my opinion.
I remember Jim saying to beware that there is a transition period when sex can hurt. I think this will be true for me.
Like that other guy said, this is the site with the least misinformation. I'll keep stretching the frenulum. Reading the other sites, I was seriously considering haveing a frenululoplasty soon.
In time you'll get there. Forget the doctor. It will cost you money and simply annoy him. Stretching is just like growing, so what is there to worry about hurting? You were once about eight pounds, and now you're at least a hundred, perhaps two. Don't you think your skin stretched? Did it hurt?
Regarding your GF's remarks about a future son, I do hope she'll come to her senses. This is not a decision for parents to make and should be outlawed. The foreskin of a baby belongs to him, and only he has a right to decide its importance to him at an age when he can legally make decisions for himself. A tight foreskin in a young man is never a life or death decision, so it has absolutely nothing to do with health. Millions of men throughout the ages have lived entire lives with foreskins that would not retract, and they have had fulfilling sexual experiences and have fathered children. Yes, foreskins ideally should retract, but if they don't it's not that big a deal
When a baby is subjected to circumcision, it hurts like hell. Most babies lapse into comas, seriously disrupting their bonding process with their mothers. Shortly after birth is an extremely important time for the baby to learn to deal with his new environment, not a time to be subjected to torture. Many victims of neonatal circumcision stop breastfeeding, a vital activity in developing a healthy immune system.
When a baby boy is born, it is perfectly normal for his foreskin to be affixed to the glans beneath. It's that way to protect his urethra from infection by the feces which will often cover his penis. Over several years, it will separate, and with more time and some coaxing by the boy, it will begin to loosen, allowing retraction. As the boy discovers masturbation, he'll usually figure out how the thing is supposed to work, and everything is fine. When one comes along such as yours, simple stretching exercises take care of it. Why deprive a boy of his birthright of complete sexual enjoyment just because a few have a stubborn foreskin? Are you aware that the foreskin and the frenar band contribute far more to pleasure than the glans? When those vital parts are gone, the man is left with only partial pleasure. Who benefits from circumcision? Certainly it is not the baby who grows to be a man. Is it the mother? Why would she even care? Is it the doctor? Bingo!
OK, so it seems you have progressed quite rapidly. As such, we can only repeat the message - be patient, and continue to perform the two sorts of stretching exercise.
It seems you are confirming that the discomfort issue was indeed that you were a trifle presumptuous that having managed to retract your foreskin, you immediately tried to employ a different sort of masturbation. I don't say that you shouldn't (masturbate pulling your foreskin fully back), but it simply may not be advisable yet. The "old" way will still suffice.
It would seem to us, that your girlfriend is decidedly ignorant on this matter but then the question is, how would she know better? What you may care to explain, is just why she would think a sexual mutilation - because that's what circumcision is - is somehow desirable?
The questions you need to ask her include (but are not limited to):
1} Firstly, does she even know what circumcision means? For example, people who don't know, imagine it means removing a "small" piece of skin from the end of the penis. It doesn't - generally it is half of the skin that is removed, because you have to count both the inside and the outside of the foreskin, which unfurls over the penis.
I should mention in your case, that being unable to retract, you have effectively over-stretched the "outside" skin to cover more of your penis than usual. Some people refer to a "partial" circumcision when a lesser amount of skin is removed, supposedly "only" the tight part, but this is more than a bit deceitful - the part removed is particularly sensitive and it is still removed "circum" - all the way around.
Conversely, on a baby it is more than half the skin that is removed.
2} Why is she expressing an opinion on circumcision? What is her familiarity with it - father, brothers, friends, previous boyfriends perhaps? Or what rumour and folklore is she repeating?
3} Does she understand about masturbation? Does she in fact, masturbate herself, and what are her feelings on the subject? You really need to know - what she feels about you masturbating, what she conceptualises about having children, that they will also masturbate?
What, after all, do you feel about masturbation? Is it at all important to you? The point is, that masturbation is very different - essentially more difficult and a little less pleasurable when circumcised (and it must be said, even more so for women!). But I do anticipate that you already realise this - needing "lube" and so on. The question is - what do you want for your children in terms of their experience of life?
4} What has she learnt, and what is she learning from your experience, or indeed, is she learning from your experience, or rather trying to ignore it as much as possible, by advising you to "go see a doctor to make sure"? As you see, our focus is on personal self-reliance ("mastery") and responsibility, but we do realise that we approach this from a position of considerable experience and knowledge, while some people may feel quite unable to make decisions for themselves.
The fact is that you have no "problem" for which the average doctor is skilled. The danger is that in this situation, a doctor will bring to play his limited skills to "fix" the "problem" with which you present him, which in the case of a General Practitioner is likely to be referral to a surgeon, and when a surgeon is referred such a problem, he tends to presume that the referring doctor wants him to perform a circumcision - because that is his skill.
But you have demonstrated our thesis eminently well, from your initial description "My penis is a tough case, though; The skin will not retract at all, flaccid or erect" to the present where it certainly does retract. Now at this point, progress may slow, but quite clearly, you need to continue using the same principles.
There was no need for a circumcision when you started, how could there be a need now? You are indeed seeing the seductive danger of reading those "other" sites, how just a little misinformation can "poison" your ability to think straight.
Now as to the suggestion that you (or your girlfriend) would or even could desire to have a baby mutilated and as Jim says, literally tortured, one has to point it is not a matter of "research" on the subject - no such "research" is necessary - it is totally clear from the outset - why would you - or she - do that?
You are indeed correct that adult phimosis is due to childhood neglect, but please note that the "neglect" has nothing to do with an adult touching the penis - rather as must have happened in your case, failing to provide education.
I was just thinking along the lines that Jim and I do all the "advising" here (and you addressed us as "J & P"). One might ask why; I think it is that whilst there are other people "lurking" who are also able to advise (and who also post at FatherMag and even that ARC forum, though it isn't so easy there), I think they figure we are doing the "job" pretty well as indeed I hope we are.
Mind you, it is time-consuming - we would rather that doctors did have the training in this area (and the advocacy); the reality is that they often do not.
mark (no login)
March 11 2005, 2:25 PM
First, I know this is time consuming. We all appreciate what your doing for us. I think it's because as each person comes to this archive, they think their problem is unique. Reading others' posts makes it clear that they aren't alone, but still they think "mine is different". Either they just want the personal confirmation from you guys that this WILL work for them, or they are just used to being different and untreatable.
That makes you psychologists as well as doctors. People come to you for encouragement, remain resistant to treatment, etc. Just like every child in a family fits into one of only four catagories (rebel, succeeder, withdrawn, and I can't recall the last. Maybe it's 'the one with phimosis').
Point is, everyone thinks their situation is different when the truth is they are all nearly identical. This is what costs you so much time.
I wanted confirmation that this would work for me and clearly it is working.
I'm pretty sure my GF will agree to not circumcising the kid when presented with the evidence. I'll just have to spend a little while pounding it into her head. It's wierd how the smartest are also the hardest to convince they might be mistaken. That's why I said we will research it together.
As for wanting to go to the doctor, it's just to squeeze some of that betamethasone .1% out of him. Mind as well ask him if he has any useful info while I'm there. I know, the chances are slim.
Lastly, do you know anyone who has had an adult circumcision and really miss their foreskin? That would be a good testimony.
We tend not to suggest people go after the betamethasone 0.1% unless they are having particular difficulty with the stretching process, and in particular, if they have some evidence of scarring (chronic untreated infection or LSA in which latter case, it is essential. You will sometimes hear LSA described as "BXO" which is a little peculiar, as there is no such description as "VXO" even though it is more common).
The reasons we do not, are that:
1} people seem to have great trouble explaining to the doctor why it is necessary - some doctors seem to think for some bizarre reason, that the purported "dangers" are worse than taking a knife to the penis, even though they happily prescribe it by the bucket for any other part of the body,
2} We are particularly concerned lest people grasp any form of treatment (other than stretching devices "worn" inside the foreskin) that supposedly makes the stretching task "easier", and feel that they thereby do not need to pay as much attention to the stretching. Yes, it no doubt does make it easier and quicker, but the only legitimate use of this is to pay just as much attention to stretching as without the ointment and shorten the time it all takes.
There is a problem even there - let's say it is possible to stretch the foreskin in three weeks. It is counter-productive if the fellow does this and then imagines he does not need to stretch any more - and we definitely do not want anybody to believe the assertions that "stretching is only temporary - you have to keep doing it for life!".
The fact is that irrespective of how fast the stretching is performed, it will take another month or two for the skin to "grow" into the new size, and regular stretching is necessary for this time.
3} We are teaching a concept of taking personal responsibility for body "maintenance". Using the ointment predicates that a doctor was "needed" for the treatment as if a doctor was needed for any aspect of health maintenance. But real maintenance of health is almost entirely outside the ambit of the doctor who in most cases is only consulted when "the wheels fall off".
Now of course, far be it from me to suggest that doctors do not have an extremely important rôle in looking after your health, or that they cannot advise on healthy behaviour.
It's just that they are rarely asked to advise on such things and many things should rightfully be the province of school education (if not learning within the family).
Do I know anyone who has had an adult circumcision and really misses his foreskin? Well, not personally in "real life" amongst friends or in practice, at least that I can call to mind. Of course, I would never have encouraged them to do so in any case, but provided instead, the necessary advice, as I do here.
There are a few fellows that contribute to various fora (such as FatherMag), perhaps the most notable of whom is "Korydon", who were originally talked into adult circumcision (for "medical reasons") and were utterly appalled at the consequences, many of whom have "restored" a passably functional foreskin replica by extreme use of stretching processes quite similar to what we are here advising for fixing "phimosis". Obviously, those who implemented this latter process, are clearly expert as a result, on the effectiveness of "stretching" techniques.
And it is quite obvious that there are many on the fora (plural of "forum") who are very pleased with the results of adult circumcision. You might at the outset find this puzzling, but closer inspection reveals that
1} Those who are pleased with an adult circumcision are generally not as intelligent (as demonstrated by their writing, including the ability to use a spelling checker!) - the practice of circumcision in general is nowadays closely confined to those who fell behind in the intelligence and education stakes. But then, the zealots include a couple of (Australian) University professors, so there must be another aspect:
2] Those who are pleased with an adult circumcision always have a tale to tell of "happenings" in their childhood. Generally this relates to having a particular interest in other boys who had been circumcised (and should I mention, attendance at a "boys school"?), often being teased by such, or simply being a social "outsider" in general. In a few cases, they actually reveal being subject to sexual interference or extreme sexual repression including lack of basic education, being taught that sexual functions were "dirty" and such.
In consequence, they carry not just the usual "male" fascination with sexuality, but a particular fascination with the foreskin and circumcision. Indeed, it is noted that some of the circumcision devotees on Circlist not only are intact, but have every intention of staying such.
3} Most of those who are pleased with an adult circumcision, have had difficulties in relationships with women. Mind you, this is not uncommon, is it? I just sense an excess here.
4} Those who "really miss their foreskin" after adult circumcision were (as you would expect) induced to undergo it as the "only" way to deal with a medical "problem" (and a few were circumcised without their consent; an even more fascinating possibility!).
On the other hand, there are some who even after the procedure and exposure to advice such as offered here, remain firmly and steadfastly convinced they are far better off as a result, as it was the "only way" they could be "cured". "AJ" from the ARC forum is one such.
I was running late and would have been late to the theater, so I decided to wait till I got home to answer your last contribution, discovering that Paul had stolen my thunder! Well, that's good, because I don't have to work so hard.
May I suggest that you visit www.norm.org to see some of the information there about men who have been circumcised Another good site is www.noharmm.org. If you follow enough of the links on those sites, you'll find some testimony of men who were devastated after being talked into the surgery by their physicians. Of course there are men who would argue with them, but upon close examination, as Paul has already stated, we find that there are other, much more serious problems in their lives relating to their sexuality, and the satisfaction from the thought of surgery overwhelms any negative results. I've often asked the question of why they tend to hang out at internet sites trying to convince everyone else to follow their leadership if they are so terribly happy about their status. It seems to me that is a man were to undergo such a procedure, and it's successful, it would become a non-issue and life would go on. Instead, they become obsessed with the act. This indicates a deeper seated problem of a mental nature rather than physical. I've actually spoken with men who were cut young in life, and it's not a big event to them, but simply something that took place and "so what?" Interestingly, most of them who were not sexually active before the surgery don't seem to miss what they had. However, I think you'll learn from reading testimony that those who were active sexually notice a tremendous loss of sensitivity. We know that the tissue removed is more heavily laden with nerves than what is left, so it stands to reason that these particular men are telling a more truthful story than those who claim improvement. Does that all make sense to you?
There was a book published some twelve years ago called "Awakenings" which was loaded with the testimony you seek. It's chilling to read. I haven't seen it available for many years, but perhaps you might run across a copy on ebay some day.
Oh, I don't mind at all spending the time helping guys such as you. Your results give me great satisfaction, and when you are kind enough to acknowledge the work as you have, it makes it all worthwhile.
PS: Please don't annoy your doctor. Trust me when I tell you that he has plenty to do already.
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