I got a friend named Dave! Gues what hes doing with the government!
September 16 2003 at 6:27 PM
(Login darkstarops) Forum Owner from IP address 66.80.212.66
-
He is designing a legal universal silencer for air guns only. Thats for use in the USA. He is complying with the ATF on regulations. He is basing his design on the even spread of gas's and air from the gun by using spiraled ports chamberd in to the tube. So far he has figured out that the longer the tube the more gas's will distribute evenly. Dont wory he has a class III firearms license. I cant wait till he gets one open for the public. Keep in mind the silencer will not lower the decibals of a real firearm. And when it comes out it is going to be pricy because of the research. He has allready gone over 3 designs that ATF dissaprooved but hes getting payed to design it and once it is actually built, Hes going to make mad money!
I wish him well. Others have tried and not been able to get past the Fed laws. It seems more than prudent that airguns tha have a maximum effective range of less than 100 meters be allowed to have noise supression, however from what I have read, if it applies to a .22 cal rifle either air or fire arm it would be a problem as all you need to do is have the barrel tapped for a silencer, which are illegal in the USA. Counter point: Funny that I can own a 7mm mag rifle that can make a head shot from 1 mile, but can't own a silencer for an airgun that at best is accurate at 100 meters.
A silencer for a fire arm yes. But a silencer for an airgun no. This is being designed on a totaly diferent basis. The basis of a silencer for a fire arm is to muffle the burst. The basis of the airgun silencer is to evenly ditribute the burst of air so there is no sound. Like a mufelar for a car.
Silencer design for airgun. Muffelar
Silencer design for firearm. Sound proof room.
P.S. Silencers are liggal in the us if you want to deal with all those clas II license and crap. Class III is for dealers.
Check the statues, no matter what you call it, any device that reduces or eliminates the report of any device capable of delivering a near or fatal projectile is forbidden under federal law. Check out straightshooters.com etc.. This is a major issue and I would not want anyone to wind up facing a penalty or prison for a stupid act. You can make one with plactic bottle and duct tape. If found using such a device you arein deep sh&t!
It would be illegal in the USA if it reduces the report (noise) more than 1db and if it is not a fixed and permanet (can't be removed from barrel) part of the airgun.
Intersting that in most of the world (except Middle East) you can't legally own or purchase a fire arm (rimfire or centerfire). I think the european countries allows you to own a shotgun. In the USA, depending on the state reside in, you can purchase as many guns as you want (except machine guns and Silencers, class 3 fed licence required) Weird !
Actually you need a MK2 license to own silcned and fully auto weapns. The class 3 is the dealers license to sell them.
Ok this silencer is basically a well ported piece of pipe (I guess) that will not lower the decable of any FIRE-ARM But will quiet the noise of air, co2, nitro, or green gas. See what he is trying to get. So far he has had 3 designs turned down. So he is building them and testing them himself before he sends diagrams to the ATF. Just wish him luck will you. I would really like to see a ligal silencer for airguns out and roaming about in the next 2 to 3 years.
You can make a silencer with a class II license as a silencer is IIRC a AOW status. Full Auto you need class III license.
You don't need any license to own either of them just fill out paper work pay the $200 Tax Stamp, a one time fee. wait about three months to receive it then go pickup you purchase. This is assuming you live in one of the 37 States that allow them.
A friend of mine just picked up a Ruger 77/22 or is that a 22/77 with full shrouded barrel, nice.
It's the bolt action .22LR by Ruger not the 10/22 semi.
BTW: a Regular poster on one of the Forums is a BATF agent and he got a Class II license to manufacturer and was going to get one the more known airgun smiths to actually do the machining but it never happened for some reason. They cost $1000 a year for the license.
Is this a fairly recent ruling that a court or BATF has made?
I think the original law was any device intended to reduce the report of a firearm. The BATF has several lawnmower devices confinsicated that actually raised the DB by +3Db and law still applied.
Possibly no. A tube with holes is usually classified as a muzzle brake and muzzle brakes are legal in the US. Some Crime Act regs may apply to some situations.
A lot of the muzzle brakes you see on Airguns are not really muzzle brakes as they do not deflect the gasses to reduce the muzzle jump or flip of the gun. They are usually on there to cover the front sight holes or the flat spot milled on Crosman push on front sights. Also they look cool. Springers use them for a convenient cocking handle and keeps wet sweaty hands off the barrel's bluing when cocking thus preventing rust.
I missed the length of 30 CM on the tube you made with holes drilled in it. I first said it would be a muzzle brake but with that much length it may be construed as the intention of muzzling the report. BATF could then prosecute if they thought that was your intention.
May be hard for them to win but expensive to defend and it would be a very fine line. I don't think they would hesitate if it were on a firearm, but maybe not on an air gun. I don't think I would chance it, besides I don't want a 12" barrel extension.
The law was passed in the 30's and illegal poaching was widespread using silenced guns.
Also if you check most states does not allow even the possession of a silencer when hunting much less using one.
And 1 mile is 1,760 yards a few checks of the record groups at 1,000 yard matches reveals that 7mm Mag you have is very,very accurate rifle, wish my 7mm Mag were that good to make head shots at 1 mile.
Art
Really it is a USA military modified snipers rifle, mfg was FNL using a 7mm 140gn bullet pushed by a .458 (close to a .50 cal cartridge) Max Range in the hands of a good sniper was 1500 meters.
First contact BATF and tell them you want the paper work so you can construct a silencer for an airgun for their approval.
Then you fill out paper work and apply for the $200 Tax Stamp along with your $200. After they give you the Tax Stamp you can construct the silencer and send it to the BATF for testing. If they approve it the they refund your $200 and your free to make and sell your design. If they don't approve it the they keep the $200 and send your now legal owned and Tax paid silencer back.
This from The BATF not just my me popping off.
As far as I know no one has received their $200 back.
Best to write them first to make sure no new procedures are in place.Plenty of new laws been passed since 9/11 and some were very many pages and most Congressmen even read them.
Matter of fact Senator McCain who was a cosponsor of the McCain-Fiengold-Kennedy campaign finance reform bill admitted after the bill was passed he did not even read the bill .
If an airgun "silencer" or sound modulator can be removed by any means and placed on a fire arm it is illegal to own. If you have a clss 2 licence, it "may be used for demonstration purpose with the authority of the local authority. But the real question you all seem to be asking is any silencer allowable on an airgun. Without a clss 2 licence the answer is no, and even with clss 2, why would you want to? There are articals everywhere on this issue. For spring guns a silencer has no effect as the "report" from a spring piston airgun is 90% from the spring forcing out a small amount of air to push the pellet down the barrel. For co2 there is marginal gain as the release of gas formed from liquid co2 pushes the pellet. PCP airguns that operate at 3000 psi compared to co2 at 900psi have the most to gain, yet many airgun mfg companies from UK etc.. have been trying to pass their designs for approval past the feds with no luck unless the modulator as they call them can not be removed and fixed to "any" fire arm regardless of caliber.
There is no Federal Law banning Silencers or Full-Auto weapons. The NFA of 1934 only placed a $200 transfer tax on them. State,County,City laws may ban them and if so then you tax permit will not be granted.
There are 37 states that allow them.
You do not need a license to own, you do to make one and you cannot make a full auto firearm because that was changed in 1986 Gun-owners act.
Silencers was not changed, if you want to make and sell then you need a license, but if you want to one for yourself see my legal way to make a silencer post, note you can not sell it if you make it for yourself.
If you just want to own one just fill out paperwork, the chief law enforcement has to fill out part of the paperwork stating they done a background check on you and there are no laws in the State prohibiting you from owning one. You then send that in with the $200 and you will get the permit. The Class II or Class III dealers will help you fill out the paper work and they can't give you the silencer until they get word back from the BATF and get the Tax stamp.
It takes about three months for the process to complete.
The confusion about air guns is that the BATF has no authority over air guns, but they do over silencers as they can be used on firearms. A lot of air gunners want these so they think that because it's on a air gun the law doesn't apply to them. The trouble is the BATF determines what can and cannot be used or readily converted to be used on a firearm. If you get busted you can go to court but don't count on winning.
Also they can charge you two ways. The NFA carries 10 year and $10,000 fine and is criminal act. But they can charge with violating Tax act because you did not pay the $200 transfer tax, This goes to IRS tax court and fine is $5,000 and 5 years and is real easy for them to win.
In either case lawyer fees will run into the $100,000 dollar range to defend you even if you win, so don't take the word of Forum's just write the BATF and ask if you really want to go forward with anything.
If your legal they will help you and keep you out of trouble. They also have a web page and FAQ's and this subject is covered in the FAQ's.
Not to mention get everything in HARDCOPY PRINTED MATERIAL and make a xerox copy or three copies and give one to someone and one for the safety deposit box and one that you keep on hand incase anything happens you have 3 copies to help you out. NEVER TAKE ANYTHING, I REPEAT /A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G/ IN VERBAL AGREEMENT for you have no proof and no proof means you'll be screwed in court.
So: To put a silencer on an airgun will cost you a min of $200 for a licence and you give up your 4th ammendment rights to search and seiseure? and then you design one. Maybe $1000 in design cost to go to prototype. Then you have to get fed approval on the design, as there is not one that has been approved yet than can be used on an airgun and not on a firearm.
So, I spend $200 for the C2 licence, I purchase a .25 cal silencer, thread the barrel of any .25 down to .177 cal barrel and instal it and it would work based on if it was co2 or pcp.
Aren't we talking about a $75 1077 co2 airgun here! You would have to have alot of $ and spent alot of time working with the fed's for what? As I have said before, It will not work out, is part of the reason that we use airguns is to evade the rules applied to fire arms?
If I could pull out a 12 guage shotgun and kill 4 of anything at one time I would do it. But Local laws in urban areas prohibit this, much less your neighbor having an issue. Go to the Beeman site and read Dr Beemans take on this.
Let me say , I never said it was practical only legal.
I agree with you on that point.
still have a couple of points,
The $200 is not a license it a Federal transfer Tax that must be paid evertime a full auto weapon or silencer is sold to another person. That's one reason machine guns are so expensive that $200 adds up over the years. And now no new machine guns can be sold to non-class III persons, but any machine guns manufactured on or before 1986 can be transfered to a non ,License holder by filling out the paperwork and paying the $200 Tax.
You are correct no firearm will ever be approved as the statute was written for firearms. I suspect none will be approved for air guns made here in the US.
However one can make one for an air gun very easy so by following the legal process I described in the other post will save you money as you don;t have to go through a dealer to get one. You make it yourself, however the disadvantage is you can not sell or give the silencer away. You are submitting the silencer and design knowing full well they will not approve it but since you followed the rules and paid the tax you are now legal to own it.
And you people that live outside USA note this.
Offers of someone wanting you to buy a silencer and mail it to someone in USA , carefully consider not doing it. First the offer itself buy the person in the USA has just committed a Felony criminal offense called "Conspiracy to commit a crime" it a very serious offense and easy to prove as you just posted the offer on this Forum.
Also it's the reason a lot of emails to a UK companies will go unanswered is because they don't want to be part of the conspiracy.
With that I am finished with this thread and will not post any new responses. I think we beat this dead horse enough.
