Is this ever a tad bit hard for you?November 12 2014 at 10:18 AM
|Renata (Login reyndog)|
When you meet women, esp older ones, who have been suffering with IF for many years but completely unable to truly consider DE and would rather remain childless or consider adoption, does this ever hurt your heart a little? It took me a few years to wrap my head around it, so I do understand. Originally the whole, "My DH would be making a child with another woman" things weighed heavily on me, until I really that I was actually the biggest contributor to the whole journey and also the one who sacrificed the most. I also understand the reasons why DE isn't for everyone. Then again, there's this sensitive little part of me that feels like my boys, and all DE kids, are being rejected. People see how sweet they are and how much I love them, and yet they won't consider it for themselves. I absolutely know I should not take this personally, but my heart still hurts a little every time. Thanks for listening. It has been getting to me recently.
|AC in Boston|
I feel you
|November 12 2014, 11:38 AM |
I feel where you're at. Mostly it doesn't bother me but for some reason my SIL and BIL refusing to consider a donor really rubs me the wrong way. My BIL had cancer so they need a sperm donor to conceive. He refused and when they discuss this with family they get VERY self righteous about how selfish it is to go with a donor when there are so many children in need of adoption into a loving family. I don't argue that it is true that there are many children in need of loving families. I do object that it's a more noble route to creating your family.
Since they decided not to go with a donor they have been in absolute hell. They couldn't afford private adoption so they are working with the state. It's a nightmare. The 2 children placed with them need significant state support. It took over a year for the bio parents to surrender their rights. The kids have 5 other bio siblings with whom the parents will have manage visitation for the remainder of their lives. Additionally they have to comply with court ordered visits with the crack addicted parents. It's brutal. I give them a lot of credit for taking it all on. They adore these children and I can't imagine what the lives of these kids would be like without them. Still- it's challenging to listen to the endless complaining, sob stories about all of it without thinking about this choice. Financially this has been devastating for them- if they had gone with a donor they'd be out a tiny fraction of what they have had to invest since they live in an ins. mandated state.
Now that I'm expecting my poor SIL has had a tough time dealing with it. None of DH's family know we used a donor but I know my SIL suspects. Her family is very excited about our boys. Her adopted children were met with mixed feelings from most of the family. I actually feel like the family should be ashamed of themselves for not being more supportive. I know my SIL is really sad not to have had the experience of carrying her own child. It's been tough not to feel badly toward my BIL because of his inability to accept and consider how his refusal to go with a donor would impact her.
|November 12 2014, 12:29 PM |
A friend of mine has been on an adoption waiting list for over 2 years now. To me, that seems like a long time to wait, especially for someone in her 40s who wants to start a family.
Another friend of mine spent 3 years trying to adopt from China, lost ten thousand dollars in the process, and never brought home a child.
I don't know if these are worst case scenarios, or the norm. I've always heard it was difficult to adopt though.
I have to confess..
|November 12 2014, 12:43 PM |
I think it is
more noble to adopt a child in a challenging situation who is waiting and needs you. But I don't think it is the right path for all of us and nowhere (I hope) is it written we are always morally obligated to take the most noble path. Pursuit of happiness matters too. It might be noble of me to, say, keep the house at 62 this winter and pay a poor local family's heating bill with my saving. Sorry, but my kids and I will be warm this winter.
Your BIL needs to stop confusing nobility with moral superiority. And frankly, whinging and whining makes the noble seem wayyyy less so. I am sorry this has been hard on your SIL though.
|AC in Boston|
Re: I have to confess..
|November 12 2014, 1:09 PM |
Who are any of us to judge? It's just tough to watch SIL be so heart broken when friends and family are pregnant. Makes me wish she were stronger and comfortable pushing for compromise. There's certainly no reason why they couldn't have one gone both routes and have a DS kid and still adopt a child in need. It's super sad to watch her go through this and I know it will take a long time for her to heal. I understand but we miss her. And then of course when they find out later that we went with DE I can only imagine what wounds will re-open for her and what judgments BIL will make. Oh the joys of family.
I know what you mean
|November 12 2014, 1:04 PM |
When I was going through all of my infertility treatments, trying so desperately whatever I could to achieve my dreams, I had a good friend that was going through infertility with her DH. Her DH already had kids, although that was years ago from a previous marriage and the kids were all well into their 20s. Well, my friend was in her mid to early 40s with PCOS. The doctor told her the grim statistics. Her DH is a heavy pot smoker. He told him that it would be best to if he didn't smoke for at least a few months prior to the IVF cycle. Not only did he not commit to that, but he didn't commit to not going in the hot tub nightly either. Well, their cycle didn't work. She said that the RE mentioned that DE was their best option, but she said that they just didn't want that at all, they wanted their "own" children. So of course I felt a bit defensive, because I never had a problem thinking of my ds as "my own". But I also came to the realization that their hearts just weren't that open to having children, whatever it takes. They just wanted it to be clean and easy. I mean, he wouldn't even give up his pot or his hot tub for a short period of time in order to up the ante. Their reasoning was, that since he already had kids, the "problem" was on her side. This was all while I was doing every voo doo trick in the world to create a lining. I was willing to do whatever it took to have a baby in my arms. They were not. And I realized that they weren't judging me, but they just weren't as committed as I was in doing whatever it took. They had decided, for themselves, what their limit was, and that was their prerogative. I do honestly feel that my friend will always be a bit sad that they ended up choosing the child free (for her) life. But that was her decision.
|Maggie in VA|
Well, you know that pushes my buttons . . .
|November 13 2014, 11:10 AM |
Honestly, it's hard for me to feel that your friend's potential kids weren't better off for not having a dad who wouldn't give up smoking doping and sitting in the hot tub for a few months to help his wife conceive. It sounds as though the husband didn't really want more kids, so he just passive aggressively made it impossible. Going through my ordeal, I encountered so many women in SMC who were in LTRs with men who had children from previous relationships, and the men were either stringing them along or outright giving them the kids-or-me ultimatum. If your friend's DH had been straight with her, she might have seen his actions for what they were and moved on, but that's how passive aggressive people operate. Take care, Maggie (in VA)
|November 12 2014, 1:51 PM |
Yes, it's sometimes hard to read how people can't "get over" the genetic loss of having a bio child. If you've done everything you could and nothing worked and DE or DS is a possibility, I can't grasp why you'd rather be CFNBC than try a donor. Adoption is a wonderful route but a very difficult one oftentimes. They are 2 different paths and neither is better than the other. We all get to decide what path is the right one for us.
I have met a lot of IF "friends" online over the 4 yrs + that it took us to get here and it's hard to see the same people struggling over and over with failed cycles yet be so closed off to using a donor when it's pretty clear that their own eggs/sperm doesn't work.
|November 12 2014, 2:52 PM |
Its even stranger to see someone be CFNBC because they don't believe in fertility treatments at all (with or without donors). I know someone like this. Her and her husband both badly wanted to be parents.
|Maggie in VA|
I admit, sometimes I wonder . . .
|November 13 2014, 7:19 AM |
Whether CFNBC people who claim they don't "believe" in fertility treatments just can't face the expense and risk of them. Personally, I find that totally understandable, because once I reached my later 30's and didn't experience the "oopsie" I mention in my longer post, I correctly (although for the wrong reasons) began to suspect I had a fertility issue and all I knew about fertility treatment was that it was stressful and expensive, and I didn't want any of that! Maggie (in VA)
|November 13 2014, 8:21 AM |
because certain fertility procedures, like an IUI, can cost as little as $500. Or it might simply be a matter of taking some fertility drugs or medication. Not all IF treatments involve IVF.
|Maggie in VA|
Interesting you raise this . . . (sorry, long)
|November 13 2014, 7:13 AM |
As I've mentioned, I've been going to a Baptist church, the last denomination whose church I ever thought I'd attend, because the nanny and her mom would bring them there for activities. I've recently started going back to my home church, which is such a relief, but attendance has fallen off there, and they don't have Sunday school every week of the month. Anyway, there are lots of adopted kids in the Baptist congregation, and I feel sad and wonder whether I really should have worked harder at adopting. I really can't gainsay my own calculation that by the time I was extricated from my marital situation and had created a stable home, my already slim chances of adopting would have been worse. And I was getting no encouragement from watching single women acquaintances trying to adopt. But, still . . . I might have given a child who needed a home a home, and while I wouldn't have experienced pregnancy and infancy, I would have been spared those things, too.
It's awkward. I think most Baptists, maybe even Southern Baptists, feel the same way about IVF that American Catholics feel about the Vatican's rules on birth control and IVF, but I really don't know who thinks what. I do know that there are adoption sources that only allow Christian couples to adopt, and I doubt whether my liberal Christianity would pass muster in their view. The couples in the church would have had more access to those organizations. So, my interaction with them is freighted with the idea that some of them view my kids as the product of my sinful actions.
When the media talks about women's fertility, specifically in the context of cancer and other diseases that may threaten fertility, they always speak of it as final, that if you lose your own ovaries/eggs, you will never have a child. And they rarely mention DE, though they might mention adoption. That sort of adds to it. It makes me feel as though DE is too shameful to discuss and that my kids aren't really my kids, which of course at one level they're not, that if your kids aren't your genetic progeny, they somehow don't count? And does this add to the resistance infertile couples feel in considering DE?
The weird part is, one reason among the many I was child free by choice for so many years was that I had an idea that God didn't want me to have kids. I was at satsang at an ashram where I was doing an internship, and the attendees could ask anonymous questions of the guru. One woman said, "I've waited so long to have a baby? When will God give me a child?" And the guru replied, "If God really wanted you to have a child, all the birth control in the world would not prevent you from having one." This was right after my dad had passed on, I had received an inheritance that would smooth things financially, and I had been married for about six months. Kids were sort of a question mark over my head, and when I heard this, I thought, in effect, "Yeah, if God really wants me to have a child, we'll have an oopsie."
What I didn't know was that I had Asherman's Syndrome, and what my RE would later call "endometrial fluff" was blocking one fallopian tube. There might have been an oopsie, but between age (32 then), my husband's issues, and that, the chances were greatly reduced. So, I've actually been in the head space of some of the people you mention. I know how hard it is to block out emotional static like that, and I also don't have a good answer. This may be one of those things that we have to learn to toughen up about -- we've made a culturally transgressive choice, and we have to accept that others don't accept it.
Maggie (in VA)
|November 13 2014, 8:26 AM |
I don't know how relevant this is, but that Julia Indichova book ("Inconceivable") really annoys me. I read it years ago, and I feel it gives women over 40 false hope about getting pregnant with their own eggs. I did all the natural things she recommended in her book, but it didn't work for me. I even did all that stuff to try and get pregnant with DE, and still had a hard time. The reasons why I had failures with DE still remain largely unknown. If more women knew how hard it was to get pregnant, even with DE, they might move on to DE as fast as they could.
|Maggie in VA|
Hear that . . .
|November 13 2014, 11:03 AM |
I didn't read her book, but have run across it several times in searching for information. Yeah, it bothered me the exact same way. I guess ultimately I felt like, you know, if really putting your all into trying to conceive naturally over 40 gives you a baby, great. If not, you know you've done everything you could. You could say a woman doing that is risking losing her chance of doing OE IVF, but after 40, OE is so much less likely to work, I think there's an argument that if it doesn't happen naturally, then it may just be saving her the heartbreak of unsuccessful OE IVF. I do agree that a lot of women come to the yellow board with the false impression, sometimes fostered by their clinics, that DE is going to Solve All Their Problems, and it's just heart breaking to read their anguish when it doesn't. Maggie (in VA)
|November 13 2014, 11:46 AM |
If you've never read the book, you might want to sometime just for a laugh. Which is what I got out of it, in the end. She promoted the idea that if you just get healthy enough and eat organic, wholesome foods, you will get pregnant.
She also did colonics to "clean out her body". Sorry, but these are just very expensive enemas. They have never been proven to clean anyone out, or clean out toxins or anything else. In some cases, they can be dangerous (cause electrolyte imbalance). From what I recall, donor egg was either not mentioned at all in her book, or she was against using one. She never said "yeah, I'll use DE if it comes to that". Passing on her genetics seemed to be crucial to her.
The Julia Indichova book is promoted endlessly on the TTC women over 40 boards. She also has a website called fertile heart, I think.
These are all my opinions about the book and the author. Just opinions, nothing more.
I think the Randine Lewis (an acupuncturist) book "The Infertility Cure" would be better for women over 40 who are TTC with OE, because Randine Lewis does not give false hope. She even said in her book that the oldest patient she had treated for infertility, who got pregnant with OE, was 45 and even she did not hold out much hope for that woman initially. She also discusses other options (like living childfree, adopt, etc) if IF treatments don't eventually work with OE. It is a more balanced perspective.
I think alternative medicine folks add to the problem sometimes
|November 13 2014, 12:50 PM |
Don't get me wrong. I think many acupuncturists and naturopaths ROCK, and those treatments can help with IF on a number of levels. However, when a woman keeps going in year after year and now she's in her 40's and her practitioners are still convincing her she can conceive with her own eggs...I don't know. You have to wonder about the ethics of it all. I clearly remember when I was 43 telling my acupuncturist, "I just want to use donor eggs. I'm done trying with my own". She said, "Really?" and just couldn't understand it. I mean seriously, did she know that stats about women over 43 conceiving with their own eggs?
I literally thank God and the Universe and whomever every day for my boys. Sometimes I think of my donor and say, "Thank you" as well. They are the greatest gift in my life.
Re: adoption. There is a greater chance of adopting a kiddo with issues and I knew my DH would NOT fare well with that. He was also totally not open to adopting certain races of kids, which was very upsetting to me. I still mourn that I wasn't able to adopt a little AA girl. I keep thinking a child/teen is out there somewhere that will find me. I can just feel that spirit.
Don't let anyone invalidate you or your children
|November 14 2014, 9:39 PM |
Hi, we here know it works. You can only tell people and leave them to it. We are all truly blessed I feel for those whose thoughts are too ridged. Take it easy hey! Best to everyone here, thk
|November 15 2014, 8:28 PM |
Since we have told very, very few people about DE, it is not DE related for me specifically but it is infertility related. We are open about having had to do multiple IVFs to have our boys, & in truth, I want people not to give up because the reward is so sweet. My brother is somewhat in the situation. Or his wife, really, as I think he is fine with one child. I posted years ago & under a different name when they announced her pg. on the heels of my failed OE ivf. Hindsight is so 20/20. Their ds was born very prematurely but survived & they learned she has a uterine problem that makes pg. very unlikely & then very risky. For them, it is purely financial, as other posters mentioned. They know we did DE & my sil is adopted, so it's not any of that. It's their unwillingness to spend a dime on it. My heart breaks a little because I know my sil wanted a 2nd child. But they were & are unwilling to spend anything to get a 2nd child. So I'm sad for them & I want to shake them, but the choice is theirs.
We have encountered other people in similar situations, some with no children. I so want them to go for it because I think it is worth every penny spent & every tear shed, but I understand - as I know you do - that each person or couple has to make that decision.
So while not DE related specifically, I hear you. Yes, it is hard sometimes & my heart breaks for other people who don't take any extra steps. My brother does know & I feel for his wife, but at least they seem to be on the same page, which probably means a lot for them as a couple.
It's probably a different thread, but now that my boys are 7 and 4 1/2, the DE aspect means nothing. Nothing. They are our sons & we are very busy raising them amidst all the challenges of m@dern life. For anyone contemplating DE or pg. & scared, I mean no disrespect. I was there & I do get it. But at this point, it - the wondering about DE & the worry - is so far distant that it's foreign to me. I do remember wondering who they would look like & gazing at their infant faces. Now, they are simply who they are, 100%. Life has a way of sweeping you away & swept away we've been. Never forgetting the miracle of science & another woman who allowed us to have our family but yet being 100% consumed with parenting our children. That is the message I would love to impart - do what you need to do because it will be worth it once you are beyond the hurdl@s. And so yes, it does hurt a bit to see others hurting yet unwilling to more than they are, despite respecting that is their right to do so.
|This message has been edited by ariadne2 on Nov 17, 2014 8:53 PM|
|November 19 2014, 1:34 AM |
Especially about the Julie Indochiva or whatever book - which I had to throw away in the second year to ttc. that along with another book entitled 'I got pregnant - you can too' where the author conceives through positive thinking.
I used to attend a self help group and I remember one lady who actually went through 18 months of agonising whether to turn to DE in front of me. All this while I had had about 4 unsuccessful attempts of DE IVF, including m/c. Truthfully, I wanted to slap her. Ironically, her first attempt of DE worked beautifully, and she had a successful pregnancy with a FET soon after. And was really happy, of course.
Ultimately and logically sanity demands we should respect whatever other people choose, but emotionally it's hard not to take offence.