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S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

December 23 2005 at 11:45 PM
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  (Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

its a little old news, but i just found these photos, and thought i should share them with you
Enjoy!
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And some OSA-AK (SA-8 GECKO)
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]




Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the fact that is a sacred place and must operate for the reason it was build

 
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D1GENIS
(Login D1GENIS)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 12:13 AM 

You thought right nephew, I enjoyed them, thanks


YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS BUT YOU CAN'T CHOOSE YOUR NEIGHBOURS

 
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(Login G_Capo)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 12:28 AM 



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53823&page=25

yes I'am that same G-Capo

--------------------------------------------

In the Andes Mountains,Only Colombian Marines can survive

Merry Christmas

 
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Marsman
(Login GrkWebMaster)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 2:38 AM 

Thanks for those photos i like alot.

See my Site Greek Military Photos
http://www.greekmilitary.net

 
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Leonidas
(Login Leonidas-V)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 2:52 AM 

WOW!!Those S-300 must be really HUGE!!
Excellent photos Alex,as always..

 
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Agamemnon
(Login Agamemnon_CY)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 3:24 AM 

Nice piece of equipment for us. at least it worth the time and the money of the taxpayers, mostly cypriots.

 
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(Login sipahi)
WAFFer

hey

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December 24 2005, 4:06 AM 

Nice piece of equipment for us. at least it worth the time and the money of the taxpayers, mostly cypriots.

Buy some more u'd need it when we invade the rest of cyprus... and everyting u have on that island would be either destroyed or will end up in turkish inventory

 
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(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 5:59 AM 

Having the strongest weapon may not always be the most clever idea. Seeing the size of the weapon you are using - turks may attack with similar strenght that may cause more deaths to its surroundings.

You may never know what turkish side will use against these weapons - better to keep them totally away from places where civilians are living.

__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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Anonymous
(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 9:54 AM 

Since S-300s are in crete...

Turkey could use..........hmmmmmm???
What Turkey could use?????Oh i got it.You could use F-16s and F-4 2020.
Yes yes ACs is what you can use.Nothing else can be used in crete.
Do you know that S-300 are ATBM capable?????
Meaning that an S-300 can make a firecracker out of a Toros.And Toros is 1/10 of an F-16 and 1/15 of an F-4.Imagine what it can do to an F-4.S-300 can engage 5 targets at the same time at 100km away.
And guess what.Where there is an S-300 battery you can count that somewhere around are hidden 30mm artemis guns 2-3 Tor M-1s and OSAs.So if i was a general i would never send any ACs where an S-300 system is active.

 
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(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 10:34 AM 

That is why the destruction will be bigger on Cypriot side in war time as you will kill many turks than ever. Turkish army is very well seeing these threats. Cyprus army is not comparable how it was before.

Death toll may be very high on both side. I am not sure if that will effect Turkey ('casue we reproduce like hell everyday) but it may effect Cyprus for the next 3-4 generations.

Yeah you will hunt 30-40 F-16s with s300s - destroy 2-3 ships kill lets say 70.000 turkish soldiers on island - then what? Will there be a city left for you to survive? You do not have infinite s300s to defend yourselves. It is funny many people thinks turkish army has no power and technology to defend and attack. This is not true and this habit kills you as this may cause a war in betwen.

That is why I find the act of Greek goverment very honorable during IMIA/KARDAK crisis as they have forseen these events that we do not see now and prevented such war.

We should all put every effort to stop war between each other.



__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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(Login Landos)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 12:18 PM 

Since S-300s are in crete...

Turkey could use..........hmmmmmm???


Harpy's. LOL.

The WeatherPixie



 
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D1GENIS
(Login D1GENIS)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 12:27 PM 

Just for the record, those "babies" are defencive weapons, not offencive.
So for them to be used, Turkey would have to be the attacker.
Every country has the right to defend it's territory.


YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS BUT YOU CAN'T CHOOSE YOUR NEIGHBOURS

 
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Anonymous
(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 12:46 PM 

Who will protect Cypriots in a war against turkish land forces? S-300s in Crete or tanks rokcets you guys are posting here?

I am having diffuculties to understand you. You should be more clever enough not to hide behind of these S300 stories each time. It will not prevent the predictable end.

Only solution is not to go in a war.



__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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D1GENIS
(Login D1GENIS)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 1:15 PM 

Very true,
Nobody in his/her right mind wants war, war would mean devastation of both sides. Lets hope all the weapons are just deterants against war.
Hell, I don't want a war. Been through one already and wasn't pleasent.


YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS BUT YOU CAN'T CHOOSE YOUR NEIGHBOURS

 
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Anonymous
(Login beryoza)
Moderators

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 1:30 PM 

"Who will protect Cypriots in a war against turkish land forces? S-300s in Crete or tanks rokcets you guys are posting here?"

Cyprus has ~200 modern tanks 500+ IFV and hundreds of
guns/howitzers protected by an excellent SAM-AAA
umbrella.Does that answer your question?


-------------
WEAK AND LAME
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(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 1:30 PM 

My dad was naval officer in cyprus war in 1972 and stayed in cyprus for 2 years. My grandpa was a land army officer in 1st division army in Istanbul and they moved to greek border when the war started in case if greeks would respond.

I know from my parents - they were telling these were the worst days ever as boths sides were loosing many good people and my mom was poorly waiting for a note from my dad and her father just to know if they were at least alive. (I wasnt born that time)

There is no joke about that. Seeing people's discussions here and telling - I am waiting that day to kill a turk or greek - unbeleivable.

__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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D1GENIS
(Login D1GENIS)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 2:46 PM 

Burkon, I was in the war in Cyprus in 74 and it wasn't pleasent, most people here have no idea what war is, it certainly isn't like you see in the films.
War is no joke, as you said.

In 74 I was recalled in the army and was fighting near Nikosia airport, when I was released I didn't know what happened to my parents who were in Famagusta at the time, I knew they used to go out to the villages during the day because of the TAF bombings and returning in the evening, the last time they left, they were not to go back because the Turkish army surrounded Famagusta, so they stayed in the village, for 3 days I didn't know what happened to them until I eventually went to a village we had relatives and found them, they also didn't know if I was alive or was killed so they were just as worried as I was.


YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR FRIENDS BUT YOU CAN'T CHOOSE YOUR NEIGHBOURS

 
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Agamemnon
(Login Agamemnon_CY)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 7:24 PM 

Although the S-300 went to Crette, instead of Cyprus, their role is not reduced at all. Crete has one of the biggest greek air-bases, and in order to attack this base it will cost Turkey a lot. the greek airplanes will be able to land and take off more easy since S-300 will give a good protection. And something else, if you think that we don't know that S-300 will be one of the first targets, then you underestimate our inteligence. So you have to expect that S-300 will be perfectly defended, and protected.

The other thing i would like to mention is that in 74, Cyprus had a civil war and Greece did not come to our aid. This time, in case of war, things will be different. This time we have good personal rifles, tanks, airforce, artilery, and some kind of navy equipment (exocet). So don't expect to walk like in 74. My father-20 years old at the time LOK- he was at the first line during the war, and they managed to break three times the turkish lines during the nights, but since we didn't have reinforcments, they used to pull back during the day. You see the turkish airfoce had the upper hand. This will not happen again-i believe.

But my personal opinion is that there will not be any war in the near future (next 50 years). Turkish, Greek, and Cypriot CEOs and politicians know that cooperating will increase their profits, and this is what matters these days.

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 7:56 PM 

Turkey threatened landing before 60s but was stopped but the then president Johnson.Johnson wrote a letter to Inonu stating turkey would be alone if it would get into a conflict with soviets in case of a Cyprus operation.This stopped Turkey then.So turkey made some diplomatic efforts with Soviets and get their support on Cyprus matter.

On the other hand the Cyprus and Greece thought Turkey can't make an operation on the Island relying on Turkish backing up on 65(not sure of date).So they decide to make a unification.Turkey threatened military action but Greek Cypriots and Greece was overly confident and Greek cypriot newspaper had printed news like we would destroy them on shore etc..

Turkey made a intelligence game, supplied greek intelligence with fake information.While greek cypriots fortiefied their positions on the wrong beach turkey made a landing that was pretty easy.(I think we have no casualty in the landing process)

As they are in premade defensive positions Greek Cypriot force and Greek brigade in Cyprus were adventegous in the first days of the operation.But then Turkish reinforcements came and Greek cyrpiot forces thought they are doomed and scattered.

Meanwhile everyone knows the Kocatepe incident but greek cypriots shot down a Greek C-130 which was sending commandos on the island.So in an age with no IFF systems such things happen in war.(In the first gulf operation U.S. lost M1 tanks just to friendly fire none to Iraq forces)

SO overconfidence is a bad thing if you are a small country esp.Turkey can overrun South Cyprus in a matter of days.Would he do it no.Why should we invade a non turkish land and face foreign political oppression ? In 1974 Turkish army moved intentialy slow in populated areas to let civilians retrat.If they didn't after war would be problematic.

Turkey would invade Cyprus probably just in case of a war between Greece and Turkey.In the aftermath of the war such an invasion should help to get a favorable agreement in Cyprus(South would have to accept 2 seperate states in such a case etc..)


As for S-300 people speak highly of russian missile systems before they get in a war.Russian air defence wasn't succesful in arab israel wars or Kosova.Yep those were older systems but there was no HARM in the arab israel wars.
Plus S-300 is russian non-NATO system which is not compatible with current Greek airdefence.S-300 can be called the weak chain in the greek defence.

Turkey has some old russian air defence systems in Anatolian Flag training area.People were thinking about getting a S-300 radar for trainign but don't know if they ever did.Russians would sell if we pay the price.

HARPY+HARM+POPEYE this trio can get any air defence.

 
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(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:06 PM 

greek air defence without a/c

-Hawk pip3.. 80
-ToRm1... 25
-SA8....31
-ASRAD....54
-stingers....1500
-artemis 30mm ....60
-zsu23 23mm.....510
-Mk20 20mm....300
-pac3...6
-s300....2
-crotale...9
-skyguard....12
-aim sparrow....20

greece's air defence is possibly the best in europe....in otherwords ur airforce are sitting ducks to run into a brick wall..

HOMERIC HYMN OF ARIS

Aris, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden- helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven ; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:12 PM 


Turkish airforce is a NATO member which actually particiated in bombing of Kosovo and has multinational Anatolian Eagle training program which is joined by many friendly airforces.So it knows how to use antiSAM tactics.

Air defence is a shield not a sword. It's job is to slow the enemy down.There is no war in the history that has been won by Air defence. HARM and Harpy locks on radiation sources.If you open your radars they would hit them if you don'T Popeyes with range of 100km would hit them.In either case the airdefences can/will be destroyed.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:15 PM 

ok then lets say it another way... ur harms, harpys and popeys are useless in greece's skies.

HOMERIC HYMN OF ARIS

Aris, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden- helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven ; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:21 PM 

Because you have a secret weapon???
Or you have built a radar that doesn't radiate?
Or just because you are greek?

(actually there is a tech called passive radar but not used in military applications as to my knowledge)

 
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Dienekis
(Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:22 PM 

S300 can locate and hit targets at 150km, Patriot Pack 3 at 160km...

turkey has no means to detect and destroy these batteries before turkish airplanes are detected and fired upon.

--------------------------------------------


EKAM...u can't hide

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:24 PM 

70% chance your super missiles will be intercepted...

turkey has no air defence.. it just has foot soldiers, egenerals will turn them into "martyrs" it will put them forward so they will walk to the slaughter..

don't forget turks... you can not allocate more than 50% of your total units towards the aegean but your best equipment is at the aegean...

taking this into consideration.. considering turkey needs to keep an eye on the kurds, armenians, syrians and russians...

the qualitative and quantitative advantage goes to greece..

 
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Anonymous
(Login beryoza)
Moderators

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 8:46 PM 

"actually there is a tech called passive radar but not used in military applications as to my knowledge)"

Then your knowledge is rather limited!Systems like TOR-M1
can work in passive and active.S300 and TOR-M1 can be
integrated in GCI and guide their missiles via GCI.

"turkey has no means to detect and destroy these batteries before turkish airplanes are detected and fired upon."

Turkey???It is highly unlikely that USA and Israel
have and antidote against S300 when integrated in
GCI.

If you keep in mind the size of greece we have the best
SAM umbrella in the world.Russia and USa are 30 times bigger but they don`t have 30 times more SAM and fighters.



-------------
WEAK AND LAME
-------------

 
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SAT.Korsan
(Login SAT.Korsan)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 9:58 PM 

If you keep in mind the size of greece we have the best
SAM umbrella in the world.Russia and USa are 30 times bigger but they don`t have 30 times more SAM and fighters.


And that makes you what? The most paranoid nation on Earth? Hmm, I wonder why.



 
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(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 9:59 PM 

S300s will not prevent the destruction of Cyprus in case of war. turks are keeping major weapons on Cyprus island and will double the size if they feel they will go in a war.

So better not to go in a war

__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 10:20 PM 

we go to war turkey is guaranteed to lose so tell your warmongering generals to be good boys

 
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(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 10:25 PM 

ok, I will tell them. We do not want to fight with you anyways

__________________________________________



"It was when I entered the military preparatory school and put on its uniform, that a feeling of strength came to me, as if I had become master of my own destiny."

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 10:27 PM 

sure, you probably don't but your deep state within a state does...[army generals] always have and always will unless they are taken out within.. untill the day comes when they are out of the picture.. and u turks have to depose them then we will just keep arming ourselves because there is no bigger ratbag than your generals on this earth.

 
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Anonymous
(Login beryoza)
Moderators

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 10:36 PM 

"And that makes you what? The most paranoid nation on Earth? Hmm, I wonder why."

I said that USA and Russia are 30 times bigger but they don`t have 30 times more SAM compared to us.Size wise
we have the best SAM umbrella.Also we are THE ONLY country
that has both S300 and PAC3 together with SA8 Gecko,TOR-M1,CROTALE,HAWK and hundreds of AAA.


"S300s will not prevent the destruction of Cyprus in case of war. turks are keeping major weapons on Cyprus island and will double the size if they feel they will go in a war."

What has S 300 to do with cyprus?S 300 are in Crete.
Be sure that in a war BOTH sides will suffer badly.


"We do not want to fight with you anyways "

I`m sure about you and most of the turkish people but
your politicians and generals.



-------------
WEAK AND LAME
-------------

 
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Landos
(Login Landos)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 24 2005, 11:59 PM 

"Turkey made a intelligence game, supplied greek intelligence with fake information.While greek cypriots fortiefied their positions on the wrong beach turkey made a landing that was pretty easy.(I think we have no casualty in the landing process)"


That is the single biggest bunch of bullchit ever posted on this board. The landings at Kyrenia were for the most part unopposed, but it wasn't because of fake intelligence supplied by Turkey showing the landing at the wrong beach. It's because the Cypriots did not believe Turkey would violate international law and invade. In fact, the CNG was plotting the course of your invasion fleet 8 hours before the landings. They advised the Greek command structure who indicated it was probably Turkish navy manuevers and not too worry.

Once the invasion started the Cypriots reacted quickly and inflicted heavy casualties to Turkish forces-especially at the secondary beach at Pentamili. Reports estimate that as many as 400 Turkish troops were wounded or killed as their landing craft came under murderous fire from Cypriot forces on the beach.


The WeatherPixie



 
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Anonymous
(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 12:11 AM 

Oh knowledge thing again.I've been in a presentation that talks about passive radar.I am a last year electronic engineering student what is your major????

"The term "passive radar" is sometimes used incorrectly to describe passive Radio Frequency (RF) sensors that detect and track aircraft by the aircraft's own RF emissions (such as radar, communications, or transponder emissions)."

Altghough the first passive radar test has been done in 1940s there is no actual combat system with it why?

passive radar uses secondary sources for detection.You need the target illuminated by preknown position signal sources(radio or GSM maybe?? ) So it is not a reliable and %100 workable system especially at longer ranges.But studies are ongoing in this matter and there is even a project group about this in my university.
(meanwhile even Passive radars can be silenced if your harms destroy the antenna of radio for example)

PAtriot Pac-2 utterly failed shooting down scuds.Scuds the crudest middle range missile ever built.PAC-3 has upgrades but%70 chance of intercepting incoming missile is just advertisement nothing more.


First a wing of Harpy will be fired when the Harpies get in the range of your Sams Harms will be laucnhed.If Your Radars stay open to shoot harpies Harms would destroy them.If you close harpies and harm would strike the programmed positions on your radar.(Or Popeyes will end their agony)

Meanwhile probably not all the greek airdefence is going to be surpressed initially TAF would create a gap in greek airforce to infiltrate inside from.So usage of different kind of missiles is not a good thing.Integration of russian and american systems is not possible although the some greeks claim otherwise.


The mission of air defence is slow the enemy down.Because of greek defence TAF shoould waste some time before bombing.This is what you gain by Air defence nothing more.Air domination is done via Air to Air fight which will happen between our and your planes.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 12:25 AM 

you speak as though we bought the equipment without knowing its capabilities fact of the matter is all of greece's military equipment goes through quality assurance calibration and tests of drones etc...meaning if the pre tests before the order proved to be succesfull..the interceptor abilities with the network-link of torm1/pac3/s300/asrads/crotale/hawks it just improved so much more..

yes i think it is largely true we only have pac-2 missiles about 1,200 of them [i think].. harms harpys and popeys do not exceed mach5..pac-2 missiles do..

the strike rate is between 40% and 70% but with pac-3 technology we have six goes at it so wouldn't the odds of interception be much better?

simple mathematics.

for turkey to have any success to cause maximum damage it has to fire about 100 ballistic missiles in one go and then i think the odds are that they will all be intercepted thanks to the link between sams.


 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 12:31 AM 

If just Mathematics checked out there wouldn't be a scud trouble in the first gulf war.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 12:37 AM 

u mean the scuds that saddam fired to israel?

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 12:51 AM 

Saddam threw scuds to lots of places.

On paper Pac-2s should've intercepted all of the scuds.And I mean U.S. didn'T use the missile economically fired more than 1 salvos on Scuds(the ones it detected at least)
Not all the scuds are detected and although it was presented to general public as Patriots were the sole defence against SCUDS after war reports a intercept at %10 .Most of the scuds breakup themselves lucky for U.S.

PAC-3 is a better system U.S. would claim it can shoot down missiles but it can't.If it could U.S and Israel wouldn'T spent billions in green pine radar and Arrow project.

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 5:13 AM 

LOL!

Again...

The Patriot was never built to fight missiles.
This system was built to fight SUs and Migs!

In the GW1 the very first version of the Patriot PAC-1 managed nevertheless to shoot down (not all,not even the most)a lot of scuds!

In GW2 there was the ex. of the F-18/F-16s which did not had very reliable AIFF(like the APX-133,which is part of the US/TUAF CCIP and the HAFs F-16/50/52+,F-4PI2000)and therefore were attacked in "friendly fire" by the Patriots PAC-3 with GEM missiles(like the HAF also has now)...

For ex. it is known that the F-18 was warned,and immidiatly tried to evade and to spoof the Patriot system with ECM...noone of the atacked fighters(F-16/F-18/Tornados etc)did it back home.

The Harpy/Harop are just cheap systems...they are small and are build of synthetic materials.
But nevertheless noone of the modern SAM-systems would have any problem to shoot them down.

Also our turkish friends here forget that the main AD force of the HAF are not the SAM but the fighters...
The SAM will not emit all the time,they will be carmouflaged(with valpak nets) and they will change their position every few hours...
The launchers will be painted with anti-IR/EM colours(intermat colours)...
The SAMs will work in a IADS with data-links,this means that the radars of only very few GCI/SAM will emit while the others are shut down while recieving the tactical datas by the others.
The3 HAF has finished a special EMCON(emission-control)-programme which will take care that every few minutes some other radars will emit while others will be not emitting.
There is also a top-secret HAF decoy programme,the TUAF will never know if some HARM/Harpy really hit a radar or a decoy.

So,whoever say that the IADS of the HAF consisting of AEW+C/fighters/SAM/GCI/Data-links is not a very powerfull system has no clue anyway...

Let me add that high ranked HAF-sead pilots say that phased array/TVM missile systems are almost not to detect by ESM/SEAD measures,when properly used.
There is only one example when in the GW2 a F-16CJ fired a HARM against a Patriot system cause it was targeted by the latter...for the great luck of the pilot the Patriot radar attacked in the anti-missile mode(this means the rays were continously and strong/not encoded)and not in the anti-fighter mode(which would had mean that the pilot would had no chance to detect the attack).

The Aegean is a deadly place for any THK asset...

 
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ALEXANDER THE GREAT
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:04 AM 

@Burkon: Dont worry man. We Greeks dont love the War. We wouldn't go to War Against Turkey. Its Turkey that Threatens all the Time with "Casus Beli" Greece, not vise versa.
Nobody here in Greece Want War!
We just buy some weapons because our Neighboors keep threatens all the time with War. So you better send a letter in Turkish General stuff, telling them not to make a War, than here!
Regards.



Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the fact that is a sacred place and must operate for the reason it was build

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 4:13 PM 


Ah, come on guys, who wouldn't love wars?

Whatever we have today, as the human civilization, we owe it to the wars. If there weren't any wars in the history of mankind, the Earth would be so populated today that we would end up eating each other. Wars are beyond beautiful. Wars are our mates. Wars rule. Long live wars!

Jk.





 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 7:28 PM 

Yannis although ý don't want to get discussions with you I can't stand back and see you talk as if you know a lot.I will not discuss but correct you when necessary

1.The meaning of PAC is Patriot Anti-tactical Missile Capability.
So in theort PAC 1 /2/3 should have anti missile capability.

2.U.S. Fielded PAC-2 not PAC-1 on 1st Gulf war.

3.U.S. fired 158 patriot missiles in Gulf.They intercepted just sth like %9 of the targets.After war studies showed 50 of the missiles were fired to false targets.
And 50 scuds hit their targets.

4.In recent tests for intercepting Missiles Pac-3 had partial success against targets.Some of the Patriot missiles failed to launch!!.

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 7:52 PM 

The Pac-2 get her IOC(inital operational capability) quite before the irak war and had still many problems...
Thus (after the first Pac-2 missiles did not work well) the US-army used Pac-1 missiles which were able to got down some scuds...

This was never made public(they still deny they used Pac-1 though it is well known and an open secret) cause the US wanted the PAC-2 to be known as a big success even in the very first real war operations.
But as I said the PAC-2 was not ready by the beginning of GW1.

You have also to understand that the PAC-1/2/GEM missiles are build to kill aircraft(splitter warhead)in opposite to the Pac-3 which is a "hit-to-kill" missile...
To kill any attacking missile you need a direct hitwith all the kynetic destruction force,and not the fractions of the blast warhead which are not strong enough to stop the missile/war-head.
These blast fragmentation warheads of the Pac-1/2/GEM are very effective against a/c(they hit the engines/air-intakes/wings/fuel-tanks etc)
This is the most crucial thing...
The Pac-1/2 mssiles were able to intercept the missiles but not strong enough to stop the warheads...

 
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Anonymous
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 7:58 PM 

HARPY and HARM are a real threat but do not forget that in the opening phases of a conflict the THK will be busy with suppressing AD and bombing the airfields.

All this trying to evade Patriot, S-300, etc. and at the same time the HAF will have an "open season" on THK.

Some 162 F-16s, 48 Mirage 2000 and 34 F-4 PI 2000 will be scrambled loaded with AMRAAM and MICA. And they will be very trigger happy after all these interceptions....

The THK will have to use many aircraft in A2G role. Don't forget that the Terminators in an Aegean with the above threats need F-16 for cover. Even the PI 2000's will chop them up if they encounter them. Otherwise they are toast.

Greek Pilot: The orders will be shoot down anything that is not flying on feathers.

Turkish Pilot: 1) Bomb Anchialos, 2) Guide Popeye to S300/Patriot Radar, 3) Watch out for HAF CAP aircraft, 4) bomb the beach on the island to prepare the landing....

Assuming equal training and capabilities in pilots (ahem) the HAF will have a very easy job with the guidance of the ERIEYEs.

If the THK suffers heavy losses, even after destroying the AD network, the HAF will then bomb the TDK and ground forces to oblivion: exactly what the americans do when air dominance is achieved.

In any case, training and tactics will win the day.

However, since THK as an attacker will hold a meagre numerical advantage (actually disadvantage in BVR capable aircraft) not even close to 2:1 or 3:1 that is usually required, it will be a sad day for the THK...

At Imia THK vs HAF was 2:1 or more....So the "brave" generals created the crisis.

When you are brave enough to fight in 1:1 odds then try knocking on the door

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:13 PM 

Yannis you can't accept being wrong can you.

Lets repeat

1.The meaning of PAC is Patriot Anti-tactical Missile Capability.I mean it is its name.SO all PACS should have been anti missile capable but all had failed.Initial Patriots with no PAC in the end of its name(none left probably) are not capable for shooting down missiles.

2.U.S. Fielded PAC-2 not PAC-1 on 1st Gulf war.
For your secret deployment of Pac-1(I gues you have high ranking friends at U.S. army too) check this article.This article shows How U.S. managed to field Pac-2s in such short time.
<a href="http://www.dau.mil/pubs/arq/2003arq/ShermanWT3.pdf</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.dau.mil/pubs/arq/2003arq/ShermanWT3.pdf</a>;

3.U.S. fired 158 patriot missiles in Gulf.They intercepted just sth like %9 of the targets.After war studies showed 50 of the missiles were fired to false targets.
And 50 scuds hit their targets.
For source:
<a href="http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html</a>;
A quote from the text

//
"The results of these studies are disturbing. They suggest that the Patriot's intercept rate during the Gulf War was very low. The evidence from these preliminary studies indicates that Patriot's intercept rate could be much lower than ten percent, possibly even zero." (Statement of Theodore A. Postol before the U.S. House Of Representatives Committee on Government Operations, April 7, 1992)
Professor Theodore Postol (a professor of Science, technology and National Security Policy at M.I.T.)
//


4.Lets add Patriots performance in Second Gulf war.They didn't intercept any scuds as none left in Iraq.But...
Their IFF systems definetely failed and they fired to friendly aircraft in more than one occasions.
<a href="http://www.clw.org/archive/oldclw/pages/8_383.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.clw.org/archive/oldclw/pages/8_383.html</a>;


So as a conclusion
All reports show that Patriot PAC-2 and PAC-3 are not combat proven and failed in combat conditions




 
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Anonymous
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:21 PM 

@ ntercan

Patriots failed in a role they have NOT been designed to take over:
ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE defense. They were simply fielded because PAC-3 was not even in the drawing boards back then.

The greek pac-3s have the radar that together with the PAC-3 missiles can complete this mission.

Do not compare the PAC-2 with the PAC-3 missile: they are entirely differnt. One is optimized for missiles the other for aircraft. The PAC-2 had a small success rate against missiles which was completely expected.

Now they are armed with PAC-2 GEM missiles.

In GW2 GEMs proved very lethal for latest generation aircraft in the publicised friendly-fire incidents.

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:27 PM 

@Ntercan

No,I don´t have friends within the US air force/Army but my brother(HAF Lt.)has.
So,yes I talked to US-pilots and SAM crews at Suda AB.

As you have seen the short time in which the Pac-2 was made service ready you should believe the guys which operates them.
You need at least 2-3 years to make any sophiticated weapon system really service able and reliable.

And once again..I explained you the difference of the "hit-to-kill" missiles and the anti-a/c missiles with the different warheads and philosophies,please draw your own conclusion.
There are enough reports also on the net anyway which explain them much better than me.

And once again...the Patriot PAC-1/2/GEM were not constructed to kill missiles but fighters!
Missile-killers are "hit-to-kill" weapons.

The anti-missile capability is only the secondary task of the Patriots(with exception the PAC-3 missile,which is a "hit-to-kill" missile...).

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:30 PM 

Are you reading me?
The meaning of PAC is Patriot Anti-tactical Missile Capability.All Patriot PAC versions should be optimized for intercepting missiles.PAC-2 isn't built for planes there is no such thing.

PAC-2 failed in 1st Gulf neutral sources agree on this.

PAC-3 manage to fail in second Gulf as it attacked friendly targets on more than one occasions.And it was easily surprassed by F-16 armed with HARM.Yannis claims this is only because Patriot is in anti missile mode I would like to see a proof of this.

We can see a Pac-4 which promises not shooting friendly targets in a couple of years get ready:))

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:34 PM 

My friend has a friend is the most reliable source on the net I was unlucky to post actual links& articles as sources.If you had read the link you will see that PAC-1s were upgraded to PAC-2 before the one in GULF.

ARROW is the system which is built to intercept missiles.All patriot PACS promised anti missile interception capabilities.

PAC=>Patriot Anti-tactical Missile Capability
it is named for it.




//
"The results of these studies are disturbing. They suggest that the Patriot's intercept rate during the Gulf War was very low. The evidence from these preliminary studies indicates that Patriot's intercept rate could be much lower than ten percent, possibly even zero." (Statement of Theodore A. Postol before the U.S. House Of Representatives Committee on Government Operations, April 7, 1992)
Professor Theodore Postol (a professor of Science, technology and National Security Policy at M.I.T.)
//

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:36 PM 

Are you reading me?
PAC meabs Patriot Advanced Capability!
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/pac-3.html

Do your homework dude...I don´t have the duty to teach you all the time...

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:40 PM 


 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:46 PM 

@Ntercan

The Patriot missile was build for fighting a/c!
This is the reason the HAF wanted it,as a F-16 killer...
The anti-missile capabilities are not the main task of the Pac-1/2/GEM and I told you why...
The Russians developed the S-300 in the same way...first it was a pure anti-a/c missile,than came a anti-missile deriative(s-300V) and now they have also the S-400 which is an all rounder just the Pac-3 with ERINT missiles and GEM missiles...the S-400 also uses special missiles against fighters and against missiles.


Well,once again the lessons are over...I told you,I explained..this should be enough for today.


 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 8:51 PM 

Yannis using your sources in your friends friend may impress your greek friends not me. you don't know that you don't know.

Check the start of the discussion some greek claimed patriots can shoot down incoming popeye missiles I said no Patriot is not a reliable missile defence.
They said we have PAC-3 vs vs vs....

Check my above posts I said ARROW is the solution for missiles.


Sadly you try to seem as a knowledgable greek but when we ask your source you talk about friend or friends friend.And try to close the subject by saying the last word.

You can teach military matters to a 10 year old no more....If you want to sound serious give sources not names of friends.

 
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yannisGR
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 25 2005, 10:08 PM 

Uff...

You are really a thickhead are you not?

Read this report here...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030321-patriot03.htm

Read it very carefully and you will understand the difference between an successfull interception and and successfull destruction of ballistic missiles...

Read what defence anaysts say ;"They were never designed to take out missiles," said Victoria Samson, a researcher at the Center for Defense Information. "They were built to take out airplanes, which are considerably slower-flying."...from the article above.
And as I told you,I don´t have my infos feom friends´friends´ but from first hand guys....

I really don´t know what to say else...

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:02 AM 

Well at least you stopped claiming PAC1 s were at gulf and started to make some research.

first of all read this
//
"To fully understand the Patriots accomplishment in the Gulf War, it is useful to recall that up to late 1986, Patriot was strictly a highly effective air defense system. After a decision was made in 1984 by the army to give it an anti tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) capability, a series of modifications and additions were made to the system's software (PAC-1) and to the missile warhead and fuze (pac-2). These upgrades were then fully tested, manufactured and deployed in Saudi Arabia on time for Desert Storm. This system was designed to defend military targets such as bases against relatively short-range tactical ballistic missiles." (Testimony of Charles A. Zraket before the House Subcommittee on Government Operations on April 7, 1992)
Charles A. Zakret is a scholar in residence at the Center for Science and International Affairs of the Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University
//
and this is the source(not my friend)
http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html

after reading this can you still claim on PAC-2 was just designed to shoot down planes??This is official comments of a Harvard scholar to House Subcommittee on Government Operations.

The thing you completely miss out it.
Yep patriot has a are blast fragmantation warhead that is bad for serously damaging SCUDS.But Patriot Pac-2s guidance system was upgraded for shooting down missiles.But reports claim they exploded hundreds of meters away from the target.Even in an succesful hit this should be at most tens of meters.At a couple of hundred meters Patriot couldn't probably even damage a plane.

PAC-3 is probably better in shooting missiles than PAC-2 but tests show it still fails in some cases check below link for Anti balistic missile tests in some occasions patriot didn't even fired.!!!!
http://www.clw.org/archive/oldclw/pages/8_383.html

The below link describes PAC-3 shooting down a friendly Tornado.And locking on a friendly F-16 in which the plane escaped by launching a HARM and disabling the system.
http://www.clw.org/archive/oldclw/pages/8_383.html


Well you see there is more ways to learn than chatting with friends.Reading is genrally better way than getting info from a friends friend:)

If greece wants an Anti-defence shield there is ARROW in the market.It's complete capabilities may not be stested but the whole system was designed for just this purpose.Turkey once considered its purchase.Patriot seems like just an advertisement campaign.

In finish
The comments of General Kadish about Patriot after friendly fires in second gulf war.

//
However, at today's Congressional hearing, General Kadish stated that while much investigation still needs to be done, he believes that there "could be both flaws in the [Patriot] system and also flaws in the application of the system."
//

http://www.clw.org/archive/oldclw/pages/8_383.html

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:13 AM 

"after reading this can you still claim on PAC-2 was just designed to shoot down planes??This is official comments of a Harvard scholar to House Subcommittee on Government Operations."

YES because patriot replaced Nike-Hercules long range SAM and their primary target were fighters and bombers.See during cold war USA and allies were most worried by
soviet bombers/fighters.

"If greece wants an Anti-defence shield there is ARROW in the market.It's complete capabilities may not be stested but the whole system was designed for just this purpose.Turkey once considered its purchase.Patriot seems like just an advertisement campaign."

Greece has patriot and S300 my friend.Just read the nations that use the system and then judge us...


"Internationally, the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Taiwan, and Greece field the system."


Xm israel has PAC 3 even though they have ARROW, how strange...



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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:17 AM 

SOrry my I posted wrong link for tests on Patriot

http://www.cdi.org/missile-defense/tests-pac3.cfm>

would be the one

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:22 AM 

Israel R&D attempts on Arrow why they have Patriot PAC3 shows they don't trust its ABM capabilities.

Patriot is made for planes I don't deny it my sources don't deny it.

PAC upgrades were made for interception of balistic missiles.that is the point.

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:29 AM 

"Patriot is made for planes I don't deny it my sources don't deny it."

"after reading this can you still claim on PAC-2 was just designed to shoot down planes??This is official comments of a Harvard scholar to House Subcommittee on Government Operations."

Your own words.The word just might save you a bit from
embarassement.Still you said two things that don`t make sense.

"PAC upgrades were made for interception of balistic missiles.that is the point."

Only PAC 3 not PAC 2.




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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:34 AM 

PAC IS NOT EQUAL TO BASIC PATRIOT
PAC is an upgrade program for patriot
//
"To fully understand the Patriots accomplishment in the Gulf War, it is useful to recall that up to late 1986, Patriot was strictly a highly effective air defense system. After a decision was made in 1984 by the army to give it an anti tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) capability, a series of modifications and additions were made to the system's software (PAC-1) and to the missile warhead and fuze (pac-2). These upgrades were then fully tested, manufactured and deployed in Saudi Arabia on time for Desert Storm. This system was designed to defend military targets such as bases against relatively short-range tactical ballistic missiles." (Testimony of Charles A. Zraket before the House Subcommittee on Government Operations on April 7, 1992)
Charles A. Zakret is a scholar in residence at the Center for Science and International Affairs of the Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University
//

As Zakret sats up to late 1986, Patriot was strictly a highly effective air defense system.

I know english is a second language for all of us but try to read

Is it so hard???

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:40 AM 

Anyway since the system was evaluated by us i feel more
confident about it.Also i doubt Germany and israel would
buy it if it was such a useless system.

Maybe its performance against MRBM like lengthened SCUDS
was poor but who cares?You don`t have a BM with a range
of 600-700 km like the iraqis had.

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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:41 AM 

check this site there are results of tests of PAC-2 and PAC-3

there are many events in which they fail to shoot down QF-4s(F-4 should be an easy target for an air defence as it has huge RCS)

http://www.cdi.org/missile-defense/tests-pac3.cfm

quoting

//
One PAC-3 was fired vs. a drone simulating a cruise missile; two PAC-2s fired vs. two targets (full-scale QF-4 Phantom jet drone and a subscale drone aircraft). The only missile to hit its target was the PAC-2 aimed at the drone. The other PAC-2 missed due to an electrical arc in the radar, which lasted less than a second just before the planned intercept but managed to delay critical target information. The PAC-3 missed because an error in the ground computer caused it to provide the interceptor missile with inaccurate target location information, said Army Col. Tom Newberry.
//

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:46 AM 

So cdi knows more than the greeks the germans the israelis the japanese...wow all these are soo stupid.

You think USA would buy some 30 batteries if PAC3 were
such CR@p?

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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:50 AM 

How many live fire tests Greece made before buying the system?Because U.S. seems to do many.

PAtriot is a political tool.It was very succesful politcally although it failed in military sense at the Gulf War.

 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:56 AM 

"How many live fire tests Greece made before buying the system?Because U.S. seems to do many."

I don`t know the number of live fires but there were dosens
of virtual engagement i mean locks on aircrafts.All were succesfull.

Before we got PAC 3 americans leased us PAC 2 for 3 years
and we trained and evaluated them.


"PAtriot is a political tool.It was very succesful politcally although it failed in military sense at the Gulf War."

You don`t spend billion of dollans for a "tool".Greece might do it but
not Germany,Israel and the Netherlands.


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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 1:04 AM 

Well live fire test and virtual locking up tests are entirely different things.

And you cannot believe how much money politicans can pay for such things.


 
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 1:05 AM 

I guess we did like S 300:Our personel fired them
in russia twice.

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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 2:47 AM 

Ntercan,are you aware that you become slowly rediculous?

First of all the Pac-3 missile in these CDI report was still in the test phase and still is in the operational evaluation...

The HAF did several fire tests with the Pac-2/Pac-2GEM against Mirach drones which simulate cruise missiles and harpies/popoeyes...no target were missed.
The british/US aircraft which did not had accurate IFF systems in 2003 had no chance to survive allthough they tried to evade and they used all the ECM possibilities they had...

The Patriots(not the S-300 till yet) was tested by the SOT/KEAT guys and their comments were like "don´t even try to engage a Pac-2GEM...".

The patriot system is still the best SAM system worldwide and the tukish pilots(be sure of that)will have a big stress facing them beside the HAF fighters...

But anyway..if you like to believe that the Patriots are **** just go ahead!
If you feel better then...

 
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(Login yannisGR)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 2:56 AM 

I forget to add...you talk about the patriot/s-300 as they would not pose anyproblem while you say in other threads that the ancient SM-1 will be a "quite good SAM"...

Dude,it does not make any sense to discuss with you about any millitary issues.
You have absolutely no clue about the whole stuff and you contradict yourself with the greatest non-sense I ever read on the net.

Oh,boy...

 
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Anonymous
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 3:33 AM 

@yannisgr

I think that one can judge how effective a system is by the efforts of the other side to neutralize it.

Patriot: they buy hundreds of harpy's, popeyes

U214 (not to forget the Neptune class with AIP soon): they order ASW aircraft, helicopters, ships

Who's got the initiative now? Instead of buying weapons to enable a landing or takeover of land they spent energy to counter our capabilities. They are sent off-target.

In addition, as I said, during a conflict, the THK and TDK will have all these things in mind AND a landing fleet to protect = not much flexibility in weapon loads (THK) or fleet deployment (TDK).

The PA and PN will simply be out on hunter-killer mode withut having to constrain their tactics.


 
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(Login ntercan)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 3:45 AM 

Well lets see, I disproved you in every subject you tried to teach me in your previous posts and now I don't make sense not you:))Wake up Yannis

Give me a source .Show me Although Patriot Pac-3 and Pac-2 which failed in 2002 tests, had %90 or more success in another extensive test.

The source I gived you clearly shows patriot had malfunctions in many critical stages in tests.It missed a F-4 drone what more can it miss???

And don't forget the drones were not using EW to misguide the Patriot.

It seems the long range air defence systems hasn't matured yet.

I never said Sm-1 is a complete missile shield.I said 8 perries armed with Sm-1 can intercept a couple of incoming missiles and it is better than anything Greek navy has(till ESSM come this is undisputably true)

Generally Sm-2&3 are a lot better systems in shooting down missiles than Patriot as this is their main job.

Meanwhile trying to get to SM-1 subject is just your way of trying to evade the actual point of subject.Pretty lame I must say. As I said before I try to limit my discussions with you in a small area or you just jump to different topics in which case disproving you takes too much time)

I personally think Greek stingers are more dangerous than Patriot system.
Patriot is a political tool. Greek politicans can say to population don't worry we have patriot...

I don't know Tornado but American F-16Cj is a pretty modern system with a decent IFF.It is interesting that while you blame IFF american commander(if I am mistaken responsible for missile defence) says there is something wrong with Patriot.

I just correct you when you try to impress non proficient turkish forumers with "superb" greek systems.

Patriot definetly fails in actual combat tests and deployments what can I say more.

 
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yannisGR
(Login yannisGR)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 3:51 AM 

Well,the most important thing is to stay unbiased,so we can discuss in a adult manner.
Just to say "this system is crap" cause it is not turkish is idiotic and childish.
The link Ntercan shows very clear how effective the Patriot system is...it shot down several times other PATs(Patriot as Target) while -in opposite what Ntercan claim_ I can not see that any patriot missed a QF-4...

As for the HAF;Well the greek,german and dutch train all the time with the patriots/I-hawks etc at crete...
http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/berlin2/topsto15.htm

"Practice Drones Rocket Over Crete

ILA 2000: The German, Dutch and Greek air forces will continue to use the island of Crete to train the crews of their Patriot, Roland and Hawk air defense missiles following the renewal of a contract with Dasa by the Greek government.

The three year contract -- worth $13.5 million-carries another five year option worth another $22.4 million, Dasa announced here at ILA 2000.

Target simulation for the NATO Missile Firing Installation (NAMFI), near Chania, has been performed by prime contractor Dornier GmbH, a corporate unit of Dasa, in cooperation with the Italian company Meteor since 1988. Approaching aircraft are simulated by the Meteor Mirach 100 high-performance drones. As many as five drones can be used simultaneously to provide realistic practice."

The most funny thing is that some turkish forumers here claim that the Popeyes(o,8mach) will pose any thread when the patriots have no problem to shoot down other patriots...the best thing is the claim that the popeyes would pose any serious thread(o,4 mach)...just look at the Mirach drones which are much more stealthy and faster/smaller and are shoot down by the HAF-patriot crews like flies...
http://www.vectorsite.net/twuav03.html

Well,this whole thread has become rediculous...



 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:01 AM 

Well if you didn't see it let me post it for you.Try search you would see it.

////

OT-1 Feb. 16, 2002 Yes (1 PAC-2); No (1 PAC-2 and 1 PAC-3) One PAC-3 was fired vs. a drone simulating a cruise missile; two PAC-2s fired vs. two targets (full-scale QF-4 Phantom jet drone and a subscale drone aircraft). The only missile to hit its target was the PAC-2 aimed at the drone. The other PAC-2 missed due to an electrical arc in the radar, which lasted less than a second just before the planned intercept but managed to delay critical target information. The PAC-3 missed because an error in the ground computer caused it to provide the interceptor missile with inaccurate target location information, said Army Col. Tom Newberry.

/////


Well the problems don't seem to be related with the speed.

The problems with patriot is probably due to its range which mean lots of processing should be done.as in the tests Patriot had no trouble in getting a lone target(you probably just look at the first tests) But when 2-more targets are introduced Patriots failed in most tests.

Rolands and IHAWKS should perform better as they have shorter ranges.I am not against greek systems.I personally appreciate Leo-2A6 for example .




 
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(Login ntercan)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:07 AM 

Meanwhile definetly Off topic but ,
if I had power in greek defence industry I would try to have a joint air defence system production with a major european country(France?? )Before buying so many systems, Like Israel did in Arrow.

As Greece needs many such systems to cover the islands I think production of missiles could have been efficent(with a foreign partner)

Turkey tried similar thing and tried to enter ARrow program but they just give permission to direct purchase.Although Israel accept a production partner U.S. rejected.


whatever my 2cents.

 
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(Login yannisGR)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:15 AM 

These were older Pac-2 missiles!
And it was just one (and not many as you claim...)technical failure during the tests.
What you don´t like to see that the patriots in these tests even shot down other patriots and Qf-4 and other drones which emits strong ECM.
The HAF did enough tests fires(with over 90% hits)to know about their capability...
These german/greek/dutch live fire tests are listed month by month in most greek and german millitary newspapers and I can not remember to have seen a failed fire test...

Listen,Ntercan...i really get tired to explain you over and over again the basics of millitary tech...

I go to sleep now,and if you like to think that the patriot/S-300 are crap you have to convince also your AF...cause these guys till yet have only enough funds for third world sead weapons like the Harpy/Harop.
As you shure know the THK had plans some time ago to purchase ten ECM-jets(like the A-6-prowler/F-18G-Growler) to counter the HAF SAMs...well,these toys would have been much more expensive than these Harpy toys.
Anyway...ask your pilots about the Patriots/S-300.
These are the guys which have the nightmares about them...

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:30 AM 

I will go to sleep after posting this too

Yannis I sarted to wonder if you know to read english.

So I will write in a easier form

Feb. 16, 2002 3 Missiles Launched 2Pac2 and 1 Pac3 to 3 targets.1QF-4 1 small drone and a drone simulating a missile.
Just the Pac-2 which attacks drone aircraft shot others failed due to different reasons.

No not all QF-4s did jamming for example
jamming was done in exercise at July 9, 2001(2 PAc-3 is used) although one of the patriots did hit the jamming Qf-4 the other missed the other target.It is reported that Jamming caused troubles in datalink.

As far as I see Patriot has no complete success in any exercise when more than one targets are used.


for more check the website I mentioned


So I guess insomnia causes some troubles Yannis....

But please don't pretend you aree a pro.At least don't pretend You are unbiased.

As a sum for people looking at last post.

-Patriot was initially an anti plane system.Pac1-2-3 program was done to improve capability in shooting down missiles
-Indepent boards such as MIT rates PAC-2 success in gulf in shooting down missiles near to %0
-Pac-3 failed in its tests in 2002 when it engaged multiple targets.
-Pac-3 shot down 2 friendly aircrafts in Gulf War.Responsible general said there is sth wrong with the system.

If the reader looks abovbe s/he will see I supported all my claims with reliable sources.

 
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Anonymous
(Login PERSPOLIS)
The Anusiya (Iran)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 5:18 AM 

well russian defence was able to knock out 3 Stealth planes .... in yugoslavia ...

I fell in serbia which everyone has seen the photos and 2 fell in Bosnia

... plus the rest ... remember they even managed to knock out the democratic leader airplane ....

------------------------------------------
The Enemy is Confused.
WASPS JUHUDS and ARABS are killing Each Other.
Communism=JUHUD=Bolshevik=Aksariyati=Bahai=
SAVAKI=Zionism=WASPS PLOTS
F16I a poor answer to Shafagh
China is Behind Iran with the VETO power. Don't waste our time by mentioning UN sanctions.
------------------------------------------

 
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(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 5:51 AM 

I really don't understand half of what you say but russian air defence systems are generally joke.

Have you seen a test of them as extensive as patriot?

Russian systems are generally called paper tigers as they have very good specs on paper:)

 
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GrayWolf
(Login Trance_Addict)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 7:29 AM 


This is great timing Alex, since you begin a thread on those shi.et pics, I thinks its time for me to ruin it just like you do in every Turkish millitary pics threads, the legitimate way though.

--------------------------------------------------
I, who am Sultan of the Sultans of East and West,
fortunate lord of the domains of the Romans, Persians, and Arabs,
Hero of creation, Neriman of the earth and time,
Padishah and Sultan of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea,
of the extolled Kaab and Medina the illustrious and Jerusalem of the noble,
of the throne of Egypt and the province of Yemen, Aden, and San'a,
of Baghdad and Basra and Lhasa and Ctesiphon,
of the lands of Algiers and Azerbaijan,
of the region of the Kipshaks and the lands of the Tartars,
of Kurdistan and Luristan and all Rumelia, Anatolia and Karaman,
of Wallachia and Moldavia and Hungary
and many kingdoms and lands besides;
the Sultan Suleyman Khan, son of the Sultan Selim Khan.




 
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(Login Trance_Addict)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 7:58 AM 




--------------------------------------------------
I, who am Sultan of the Sultans of East and West,
fortunate lord of the domains of the Romans, Persians, and Arabs,
Hero of creation, Neriman of the earth and time,
Padishah and Sultan of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea,
of the extolled Kaab and Medina the illustrious and Jerusalem of the noble,
of the throne of Egypt and the province of Yemen, Aden, and San'a,
of Baghdad and Basra and Lhasa and Ctesiphon,
of the lands of Algiers and Azerbaijan,
of the region of the Kipshaks and the lands of the Tartars,
of Kurdistan and Luristan and all Rumelia, Anatolia and Karaman,
of Wallachia and Moldavia and Hungary
and many kingdoms and lands besides;
the Sultan Suleyman Khan, son of the Sultan Selim Khan.




 
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(Login Trance_Addict)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 8:47 AM 










--------------------------------------------------
I, who am Sultan of the Sultans of East and West,
fortunate lord of the domains of the Romans, Persians, and Arabs,
Hero of creation, Neriman of the earth and time,
Padishah and Sultan of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea,
of the extolled Kaab and Medina the illustrious and Jerusalem of the noble,
of the throne of Egypt and the province of Yemen, Aden, and San'a,
of Baghdad and Basra and Lhasa and Ctesiphon,
of the lands of Algiers and Azerbaijan,
of the region of the Kipshaks and the lands of the Tartars,
of Kurdistan and Luristan and all Rumelia, Anatolia and Karaman,
of Wallachia and Moldavia and Hungary
and many kingdoms and lands besides;
the Sultan Suleyman Khan, son of the Sultan Selim Khan.




 
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yannisGR
(Login yannisGR)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 11:33 AM 

You are the one and only person I ever met who try to explain me that the Patriot/S-300 systems are crap...


I will admit that the Pac-1/2/GEM versions were not very effective against TBMs(cause they had the wrong warhead)but never anybody claim that these stuff will be not effective against fighters...
I showed you that it is much more difficult to destroy a missile allthough it was intercepted(cause of the warhead),and this happened in all occasions over Irak/Kuwait,just the missiles had a very big chance to get through all the small slpitters of the blast fragmentation warhead...thus the Scuds broke in the most cases in two and more parts which caused even more damage...
This is (I also showed you that)the reason that all TBM killers are "hit-to-kill" assets.

I showed you that your CDI report was about a system which was still in the evaluation tests,thus it was normal that-out of some 20 fire tests-some 5-6 shots were failures(cause of technical failures which are ofcourse normal in technical evaluation).
But nevertheless 14 missiles hit even targets like small drones,ECM emitting QF-4,Hera/Pershing vehicles and even PAAT(patriot as Target) in many cases.

I will admit also that these missiles never saw real action against fighters,but only because the US/Nato allways had the absolute air-dominance and none of the enemies had any fighters themselves which were able to get through...

Fact is that SAM are the nightmare of any fighter pilot and in all recent conflicts it was done a lot even to surpress old,ancient material like in 1999...
In 1974 when these systems were properly used by russian instructors in Syria,Lebanon and Agypt,systems like the SA-6 shot down 30 israeli fighter planes in just 5 hours...
There are a lot of other well known examples.

I showed you the example of the F-18/tornado which did not had properly IFF(also the Patriot teams were just uneducated and there was a very bad team work between the Patriot "owner" US army and the USAF/RAF)which were warned by the Patriot crews and which tried to evade and to spoof with all the ECM capabilities they had...and nothing worked against the GEM.

Patriot crews like the German and greek are much better trained,and espescially in the case of the HAF these systems are integrated into the HAF and not the army(like in the case of the US).
The greek pilots/ERIEYES/GCI train everyday with these systems,all HAF assets allready have (or soon will have) the most modern IFF(APX-113)/Data-Links(LINK-16) which means that there have never been(and never will be) any problems with "friendly fire".

And as some people here said..the TUAF till now did her best to counter these systems allthough no funds were available,and other programmes like the Mesa/CCIP needed much more funds.
There was even not enough money to get the 10 ECM jets.
Just try to imagine what kind of threat the Patriots/S-300 will be for the TUAF,espescially in combination with all the fighters and the high sophisticated IADS.

It is also obvious that the HAF has developed her own tactics and measures to assure the best possible results...

 
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(Login Eskici)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 11:47 AM 

There is not any funding problems for CCIP and/or MESAs..

 
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polemistis
(Login polemistis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 12:11 PM 

Especially for Grey wolf…








 
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(Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:04 PM 

@Drug Adict wrote:
This is great timing Alex, since you begin a thread on those shi.et pics, I thinks its time for me to ruin it just like you do in every Turkish millitary pics threads, the legitimate way though
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh!!! No!!! Please dont do this to me! I am gona cry!!!

Serius How old are you? You shouldn't spend all this time in your PC. Your Dad will have to pay a lot of money!
You should go to bed instead!
When you grow up you may spend more time!
Aide! Nani !

P.S. about the Gay thing.
The pictures (not Drawings) Speak by them selfs.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]




Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the fact that is a sacred place and must operate for the reason it was build

 
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Anonymous
(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 4:32 PM 

WHooaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

I think we are out of order here.
Ntercan are you realy trying to tell us that Pac3 and S-300 are crap?
I don't know man.If you say that to the experts of WAFF everybody gonna ROFLMAO.
You must reconsider.Pac3 are unbeatable on one to one.Everybody knows that.Especially
the F-18 super hornet pilot with all that fancy ECM trying to jam and shake off a pac2-gem.

 
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Anonymous
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 5:20 PM 

People just ignore ntercan.

The more you reply to him the more you give him credence.

The guy is so obsessed that he distorts reality.

I bet if Turkey had Patriots then he would claim they would shoot down aircraft over the acropolis...

 
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Ypsilanti
(Login Ypsilanti)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 5:33 PM 

He wrestling or hand stuck up there? Ha!!

My people left Turkiye in 1922 and all I got was this stupid hat!


 
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Anonymous
(Login ntercan)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:01 PM 

I am not saying Patriot is crap.I believe I never used the word crap.I showed facts and you think it is crap.

I proved most of yannis's comments are wrong with sources.If you can give me some sources on the reliability&performance of the Patriot systems I would welcome it.


Just because it is used by greece doesn't make a system good.

-All PAC upgrades were done for missile interception.PAC1&2 were complete failure.PAC-3 gave out mixed outcomes in tests.It managed to intercept an alone target but it failed in multiple target scenarios

-Patriot Pac2&3 failed in tests when multiple targets were introduced.Yep these tests were done in 2002.I would welcome to see further more succesful tests if you find any sources!! (not friends in greek army who says the system is good)

-A Patriot Pac-3 shot down a friendly Tornado.Although Yannis blames IFF the general in charge blames the Patriot system.

-A Patriot Pac-3 tried to shot down a F-16.It was easily disabled by F-16 by a HARM missile.Too bad Tornado wasn't equipped with HARM.


I am not saying Patriot is crap.I am saying is what I wrote above is true as I gave sources for each.I just want to correct misinformation attempt by some greeks.

Read facts draw your own conclusion.

 
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BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:13 PM 

ntercan, if they are such bad systems why will turkey most likely purchase them?

The israelis will not give you the Arrow, so you will settle for patriots. When you get them I bet your tune will change and you will sing their praises.

 
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yannisGR
(Login yannisGR)
WAFFer

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:21 PM 

Why don´t you stop to make yourself rediculous my friend?
When you have no clue,I don´t have the duty to teach you things the whole world knows for years and even you will find in Wikipedia which is for children´r knowledge?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

"Both testimonies state that part of the problems stem from its original design as an anti-aircraft system. PATRIOT was designed with proximity fuzed warheads, which are designed to explode immediately prior to hitting a target spraying shrapnel out in a fan in front of the missile, either destroying or disabling the target. These missiles were fired at the target's center of mass. With aircraft this was fine, but considering the much higher speeds of TBMs, as well as the location of the warhead (usually in the nose), PATRIOT would most often hit closer to the tail of the Scud due to the delay present in the proximity fuzed warhead, thus not destroying the TBM's warhead and allowing it to fall to earth."

Everybody with even the slicest knowledge about missile system knows the above!!!
You are the only guy I ever met whiuch claim to have a clue but don´t even know what PAC means...
And I don´t have the duty to give you all the links and to waste my time on your kids behaviour!!!

At least read your own links to learn the basics!!
http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=2259&from_page=../index.cfm

Read what they say about the circumstances before you spread your un-qualified comments about the best SAM system ever developed!

"On the night of March 22, 2003, two British Royal Air Force Tornados were returning to the Ali Al Salem Air Base in Kuwait after a mission in Iraq. The lead aircraft, whose radio call sign was Yahoo 75, made it back safely. The tail aircraft, Yahoo 76, was shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile defense battery guarding the airbase. Both crew on-board the Tornado were killed instantly.

The U.S. and British governments held independent investigations of the fratricide. On May 17, 2004, they released in-tandem their determinations of what caused the Patriot battery to target a friendly aircraft. Both investigation boards stated that the Patriot’s radar had read the Tornado as an anti-radiation missile (ARM), that the Tornado’s Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) beacon apparently wasn’t working, and that the Patriot crew fired in self-defense. The U.S. investigation board summarized, “The incident occurred as a result of asynchronous processes and procedures across the coalition force.”



However, the British investigation did not entirely concur with this assessment. It points to Patriot ARM rules of engagement, Patriot IFF procedures, the Tornado’s IFF serviceability, and overly-broad criteria for Patriot ARM classification, among others, as contributory factors to the accident. The British report is available to the public in its entirety. While the U.S. report is unclassified, many sections have been redacted to a classified level and thus been blacked out, seemingly at random. Reading through what was not deemed to be classified in the appendices of the U.S. investigation, it becomes apparent that the way the Patriot is designed and operated, it could very likely have another deadly friendly fire incident.



“I do not feel comfortable with over 80 percent of the ECS crews in my battalion”



The U.S. Patriot battery involved was C/5-52 Air Defense Artillery (ADA). It was kitted with Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC)-2 missiles, not the PAC-3 missiles that it had been trained to handle, since the PAC-3 equipment hadn’t caught up with them yet from the United States. C/5-52 ADA was based in Camp New Jersey, Kuwait, and was tasked to defend the 3rd Infantry Division and 101st Tactical Assembly Areas, as well as the 11th Aviation Regiment. It was riding high after reportedly destroying an Iraqi theater ballistic missile (TBM) on March 20, 2003.



However, this elation was based on shaky support. The battery had rushed through its training in order to get to the Iraqi theater. According to the published U.S. report, “The TCO [tactical control officer] and her crew completed their certification just prior to deployment. That fact alone indicates that they were inexperienced… However, they had passed the required certification and demonstrated through questions in their statements the basic knowledge necessary to identify and engage threatening targets IAW [in accordance with] the rules of engagement in the theater.”



But the battery’s Fire Control Platoon Leader and Battery Trainer, who was supposed to have the most technical knowledge about the Patriot in the area and was responsible for training, felt otherwise. He pointed out that, unlike every other battery in 5-52, the C Battery was not able to do a mission readiness exercise due to time constraints. This would have confirmed before being deployed that they could do their job in combat. He noted that the TCO who authorized the Patriot launch had failed her Air Battery test the first time she took it. She passed it the second time, but got to skip the 72-hour wait between tests that normally is procedure in these matters, again because of the compressed preparation schedule. And the C Battery didn’t get any additional training once it arrived in-theater, so its rushed certification would have to hold them through whatever combat tossed at them.



The Fire Control Platoon leader swore in an official statement about the fratricide that it wasn’t just this battery that wasn’t properly or completely trained: “I do not feel comfortable with over 80 percent of the ECS [Engagement Control Station] crews in my battalion when it comes to going to war, due to lack of training issues.”



UNREALISTIC TRAINING



This unease arose from how the Patriot crews were trained to almost unthinkingly respond to presumed threats. The Fire Control Platoon leader pointed out, “…when you train, you’re taught to react so quickly because the Air Battles that we train on, in my opinion, are unrealistic. They are to [sic], there are too many things going on at one time, so all it trains you to do is just react. And that is just fine, but out here it is more complicated than that.”



His warning is borne out by the British investigation, which notes that the Patriot battery in question had less than one minute to make its decision on what to do. Also, a C Battery crew member testified, “…we saw the ARM coming down toward us, it popped out so quick, you know, it was, no time to react, it [was] just shoot it down. That’s what we’re trained to do. We’re trained to identify it, and you know check it out before we engage with it. Like I said, it just happened so quick, it was so close, honest it really wasn’t much time.”



TOO-BROAD CRITERIA FOR WHAT COULD BE AN ARM



This lack of clear and complete training for the Patriot crews was compounded by faulty Patriot technology. The Patriot’s radar identifies objects based on characteristics which are inputted by software programmers. In this case, generic ARM classification criteria were programmed into the Patriot’s radar. No emphasis was put on clarifying the very specific types of ARM threats that Iraq might field. Consequently, when Yahoo 76 dipped down toward the Ali Al Salem airbase and dropped its speed in order to land, it briefly took on the characteristics of a generic ARM (which are launched from aircraft and drop down on their targets). The Patriot radar mistakenly classified the Tornado as an ARM. The U.K. board of investigation believed that the criteria “should have been much tauter.”



Standard operating procedure for Patriot crews when they think they see an ARM is to engage it with IFF. There are five different IFF modes. Mode 1 is an unencrypted code, while Mode 4 is an encrypted one. According to the U.S. report, the lead Tornado, Yahoo 75, was squawking all IFF codes, but Yahoo 76 wasn’t broadcasting any. Before the fratricide, a nearby airborne surveillance system had identified the second aircraft as friendly based on the single set of IFF returns.



FAULTY IFF ON THE GROUND, IN THE AIR



After Yahoo 76 showed up as an ARM, C Battery tried to engage it with IFF. The Tornado’s Mode 4 IFF had been tested before it left the ground, but it appeared not to be working once the aircraft was in the sky. The U.K. board determined that it must have broken down due to a power supply failure.



But this was complicated by the fact that the Patriot battery didn’t have its Mode 1 codes loaded the day of the fratricide. The Fire Control Platoon leader had been on-duty the day before the fratricide, and he said that at that point, Mode 1 had been loaded into the system. So there was something that caused the Patriot’s IFF system not to be operational in Mode 1. The Fire Control Platoon leader postulated that if the system had gone down and needed to be rebooted, that could have caused it to lose the Mode 1 codes. If there were any problems with the system, they should have shown up in the log.



The report released to the general public had a lot of areas blackened out by Pentagon classifiers. One log did report that the Air Defense Systems Integrator (ADSI) was receiving too many radar tracks for it to handle, and, in the words of the operator on March 22, 2055Z: “ADSI backs up and AMDWS [Air and Missile Defense Work Station] wont [sic] receive tracks MDB reset.” But it is unclear if this was related to the C Battery.



SPURIOUS TRACKS CLUTTERING THE RADAR PICTURE



The Patriot crews had another consideration to manage: false or spurious tracks. These objects were bedeviling Patriot crews, making an already-difficult job even more taxing. On March 22, B/2-43 reported that it “auto-engaged a spurious track, missile fired before they could override…SPACE CONFIRMED SPURIOUS.” Later that same day, C/6-52 also had a spurious track, as did Kuwaiti Patriot batteries 1 and 2. The U.S. board’s fratricide report had an index titled, “Patriot Spurious Tracks,” but it was blackened entirely except for one introductory paragraph. It obviously was a serious problem, since the Patriot’s training simulations didn’t include spurious tracks. Thus the crews found themselves trying to react without hesitation and under urgent pressure to false alarm signals that looked like real enemy missiles.



Because of the spurious tracks that kept popping up and the C battery’s limited training, it was very important that they confirm any possible ARMs with the Information and Coordination Central (ICC) to discuss possible courses of action. This double-checking is Patriot operating procedure and supposed to prevent fratricide. However, the Fire Control Officer at the Control Reporting Center (CRC) testified about a call he received on March 22 from the officer who authorized the Patriot launch: “…she asked me if I had a [blackened] on scope. I looked up at the GCCS [Global Command and Control System] and saw nothing. SSG [name blackened] proceeded to call space. I asked MSG [name blackened] (ops coordinator) if he had any [blackened] on their scope. He said no. I looked up at the ADSI and saw nothing. Just as I told 1LT [name blackened] ‘I had nothing on scope’ she stated, “What? Charlie has a confirmed kill [blackened].’ Then she said it again.”



The officer decided independently to launch at what she thought was an ARM. The CRC/ICC “did not approve or were aware of any Patriot engagement;” and the command post’s response after the Patriot launch was to hit the floor, then get on the walkie-talkie and say, “ECS, this is CP, what the F..k [sic] was that?”



POOR COMMUNICATIONS ISOLATED THE PATRIOT BATTERY



Also hampering confirmation of any possible ARMs was malfunctioning equipment. Communication with higher-ups was almost non-existent, as the cell phones were rarely getting signals and the hand-held walkie-talkie was only working sporadically. In fact, at one point, a runner had to be sent out to find out why the ECS external alarm had gone off. And the C Battery’s electronic data recorder, in the words of the officer who authorized the Patriot launch, had been “touch and go the entire time we’ve been here,” but the day before the fratricide, “just went kaput.” The British board concluded, “The lack of communications equipment meant that the Patriot crew did not have access to the widest possible ‘picture’ of the airspace around them to build situational awareness. The Board considered it likely that a better understanding of the wider operational picture would have helped the Patriot crew, who would then have been more likely to identify ZG710 [Yahoo 76] as a friendly track, albeit one without a working IFF.”



NOT AN “ASYNCHRONOUS” EVENT



The Tornado/Patriot fratricide cannot be traced to a single cause. It was a combination of a green Patriot crew that was untrained on how to handle spurious tracks, trying to figure out a flawed radar, isolated from higher-ups due to bad equipment, and unable to confirm if what they saw was an ARM due to a malfunctioning IFF beacon on the Tornado and a lack of IFF codes on the ground. In other words, bad procedures coincided with bad technology to put the Patriot crew in a dreadful position and the Tornado crew in a lethal one. It was not an “asynchronous” event, as the U.S. investigation claimed, because all those pieces could fall into place again unless steps are taken to fix the Patriot’s radar, clean up communications, and establish all-encompassing operating procedures among U.S and allies to identify friendly aircraft. Given how popular the Patriot missile defense system is among members of Congress and how much financial support the program is being given to rush its deployment worldwide, it would be easy to ignore these problems. It also would be a grave mistake."







 
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(Login ntercan)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:23 PM 

Meanwhile I miss something

-It seems Patriot shot down an F-18 in addition to Tornado.So it has a pretty good record of shooting friendly aircraft...


There is no reliable long range defence system in service.Even Arrow is not finalized I think.(might be wrong)

So Turkey is going for middle range solutions.We are getting I-HAWK 21(advanded PIP 3 with MPQ-64 Radar).Systems will be online this year I think.Hawk has a good record in actual conflicts.

 
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ALEXANDER THE GREAT
(Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:44 PM 

So Nterkan you are telling us that the I-Hawk is Better than the Patriot PAC-3?


No! I am not going to argue about that!
Maybe then the Mig-21 is Better than the Eurofighter!



Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the fact that is a sacred place and must operate for the reason it was build

 
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(Login ntercan)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:47 PM 

Yannis you just don't read my sources do you?

Well this one become a long post I hope you can read aaall of it:)

You just talk about teaching basics knowing stuff etc. but I fear you are ignorant.Thanks to this discussion you made some research and now know sth about these systems.


I did sth you didn'T do I read your post.And I will base this response in your source:))

Well ok ONE OF the reasons in Tornado case(which is just 1 of the 3 friendly fire events) is its IFF.

but I will quote from the text you post

***************
-Standard operating procedure for Patriot crews when they think they see an ARM is to engage it with IFF. There are five different IFF modes. Mode 1 is an unencrypted code, while Mode 4 is an encrypted one. According to the U.S. report, the lead Tornado, Yahoo 75, was squawking all IFF codes, but Yahoo 76 wasn’t broadcasting any. Before the fratricide, a nearby airborne surveillance system had identified the second aircraft as friendly based on the single set of IFF returns.
***************

-So a reliable system can understand the second aircraft is friendly too based on the firsts IFF.But as you see the PAtriot software classified the tornado as a missile.

***************
The Patriot crews had another consideration to manage: false or spurious tracks. These objects were bedeviling Patriot crews, making an already-difficult job even more taxing
***************

-Above quote shows the problems in patriot PAC-3 Below shows the patriots have an habbit of firing in nothingness.

***************
On March 22, B/2-43 reported that it “auto-engaged a spurious track, missile fired before they could override…SPACE CONFIRMED SPURIOUS.”
***************

-this is from your conclusion.It says there is sth wrong with the system just as my sources did.
***************
This lack of clear and complete training for the Patriot crews was compounded by faulty Patriot technology.
***************


last of all I will use one of my sources. It is not reliable as wikipedia but:)))It tells you what PAC upgrades are for.
***************
"To fully understand the Patriots accomplishment in the Gulf War, it is useful to recall that up to late 1986, Patriot was strictly a highly effective air defense system. After a decision was made in 1984 by the army to give it an anti tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) capability, a series of modifications and additions were made to the system's software (PAC-1) and to the missile warhead and fuze (pac-2). These upgrades were then fully tested, manufactured and deployed in Saudi Arabia on time for Desert Storm. This system was designed to defend military targets such as bases against relatively short-range tactical ballistic missiles." (Testimony of Charles A. Zraket before the House Subcommittee on Government Operations on April 7, 1992)
Charles A. Zakret is a scholar in residence at the Center for Science and International Affairs of the Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University
***************
http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html



Please next time read and understand the text you find on net before teaching.
So yannis I have work to do now .I can get back to forum tomorow.So study a little we will continue the lecture when I came back:)

 
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(Login ntercan)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:51 PM 

No I am not telling I-Hawk is better.I am saying I-Hawks are more reliable.and their capability/price ratio is definetly higher.

I see no reliable long range missile system today on world.

-Patriot met many problems in every test or deployment
-Arrow is not deployed widely
-S-300 is prodcut of soviets:) that should be enough:)Seriously like most russian systems we don'T know how much S-300 can reach to its specifications.



 
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yannisGR
(Login yannisGR)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:53 PM 

@Alex,Salonica,Darkhelmet


Let´s give it up boys....now he claims that the I-hawks are better than the Patriots!
Also stingers are better!

Well...for this guy a turkish indegenous slingshot is better than the Patriot/S-300.

I´m out of here....


 
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(Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 6:56 PM 

So all the Soviet/Russian Weapons are crap??
God! You must be a GENIUS!
"We dont know S-300 Performance"
When you dont know a System's performance that doesn't mean that the system is not good!
What a logic!!!



Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the fact that is a sacred place and must operate for the reason it was build

 
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Anonymous
(Login Temenos)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 26 2005, 9:16 PM 

Oh they are TurKs of course they will under estimate our equipment in that they could feel "superior". Their true nature after 1920 is to fight unarmed people which gives them a sense of delusions of grandeur and making the most erroneous mistake of under estimating their opponent.

 
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BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 27 2005, 2:27 AM 

Underestimating us is the best thing they can do.

 
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Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
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Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 27 2005, 1:04 PM 


Whoa, what a thread!

Ntercan, I believe you were provided with sources but ignored them, so I don't see how you can be "asking" for sources. Seems you're only trying to make an impression.

In any case, I've read through this thread trying to understand your logic. You know, I am a little confused. We had this long argument about SM-1s where I was telling you everybody retired or upgraded them coz they are cr@p.

Your logic was "No they're not cr@p, and in any case one additional layer of AAW is better than nothing".

And that was a discussion about a 60's relic/fossil called SM-1. Now with Greece's state of the art AAW batteries you fail to recognize this obvious advantage that you were so desperately trying to convince us about when it was the other way around?

Besides, what is the point of your argument? Does Turkey have SCUDs?

And another thing. You referred to the meaning of PAC. In you mind, SCUDs, or any ballistic missile for that matter, is a TACTICAL threat??? For God's sake try to be objective.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
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(Login dellas04)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 27 2005, 1:35 PM 

S-300`s make me feel good

Thank you god

 
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Anonymous
(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-300 PMU1 Active in Crete

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December 27 2005, 2:47 PM 



"-Patriot Pac2&3 failed in tests when multiple targets were introduced.Yep these tests were done in 2002.I would welcome to see further more succesful tests if you find any sources!! (not friends in greek army who says the system is good)
"

Can you give us a link about this tests????

"
-A Patriot Pac-3 shot down a friendly Tornado.Although Yannis blames IFF the general in charge blames the Patriot system.
"

Do you think that he would say that his operators are so st**id that they couldn't recognise a
friendly AC in their screens????

"
-A Patriot Pac-3 tried to shot down a F-16.It was easily disabled by F-16 by a HARM missile.Too bad Tornado wasn't equipped with HARM.
"

You twist every well known fact.The battery never fired against the F-16.It just locked on.The F-16 thought that it was an iraqi AD battery and launched a HARM.Never heard if that HARM found it's target or not.I bet it didn't cause if it did we would have some injured soldiers or something.But it seems like even HARMs are taken good care of Pac3's ECM.If the battery had fired a missle then you could have said bye bye F-16.That became obvious when a battery actually fired a missle against a far more capable AC.A brand new F-18 super hornet with all this EW and ECM fancy american equipment that jam all russian tech stuff(that's what american's say).Actually the confident F-18 pilot make a try to shake off patriot but the results are rather disapointing.

"
I am not saying Patriot is crap.I am saying is what I wrote above is true as I gave sources for each.I just want to correct misinformation attempt by some greeks.

Read facts draw your own conclusion.
"

You just said that I-Hawk are better combat proven than Pac3's.
Anyway i give up.Why don't you ask some expert members on pac3's reliability and performance.


 
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