WAFF Vet Club[Click here to Join WAFF!] WAFF Moderators Forum
General Discussion
(The Den)
The World's Armed Forces Forum History, Politics, Economics and Religion Forum
Greece & Turkey Defence Forum Europe, Middle East & Africa
Defence Forum
Asia & Pacific Defence Forum
Help, Suggestions & Complaints
   
   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

May 3 2006 at 3:17 PM
No score for this post
Anonymous  (Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)


According to this

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=275&Itemid=1

all the problems with the ICMS-2000Mk3 and especially the RWR are solved and HAF will receive the 15 new m2k mkII by the end of this month.Also very soon 6 more m-2000 currently in HAI will roll out at Tanagra AFB since all of the needed adjustments have been made.After this 4 more m-2000s will be sent to HAI for updates.After the first deliveries HAF will have sub-strategic attack capabilities using the SCALP-EG.

Very good news for HAF.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 3:32 PM 

A Question?

Have these 15 Mirages already been produced and waiting for the problems to be solved? Because the M-2000 assembly line of Dassault Aviation has recently been shut down and tools have been removed..

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

JJ6
(Login JJ6)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 4:13 PM 

They have already been produced

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

PHAETHON
(Login phaethon)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 4:18 PM 

At last!
There has been a huge delay on this program.

Finally the Haf gets a very capable aircraft,
and most importantly a system of highly strategical
value.(Scalp-eg)




4.500 YEARS OF HISTORY AND ON.....
Must check: www.e-history.gr

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login electronix50)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 4:44 PM 

Since HAI is doing the upgrades of the 10 existing Mirages to the -5 MKII variant, I hope that we upgrade the remainder of the fleet of existing Mirages. Should NOT be much of a problem since HAI is doing the upgrade.

"He instituted the remarkable system of laws he had planned. So successfully did these pacify the state that the people hailed him as a god. Lycurgus then prepared to start on another journey and pledged all the people to uphold his laws till he returned. Then he left Sparta and never returned, so as thus to bind them forever to his laws." As the legend of Lycurgus goes

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 4:49 PM 


@electronix

I hope so too.25 m2ks are not enough.I think that the cost for this is small
isn't it?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

JJ6
(Login JJ6)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 4:58 PM 

The remaining Mirage 2000EGM/BGM will be upgrated as well. Recently, India will upgrade its Mirage 2000H to the -5 standard.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

T100
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 5:03 PM 

That's indeed good news. Still we have to upgrade all the remaining. Taking into account that we have 90 SCAPL-EG and only 1 can be mounted on a M2k-5 we definitely need more. Of course, the EF can carry them as well but nithing certain from that front so far...


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 5:16 PM 


"The remaining Mirage 2000EGM/BGM will be upgrated as well. Recently, India will upgrade its Mirage 2000H to the -5 standard."

Are you sure?I remember seen that in the new EMPAE.
I haven't read anything relative since then.
It will be a very good decision IMO.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

PHAETHON
(Login phaethon)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 5:20 PM 

I had heard that the upgrade of the rest mirage2000 will follow for sure.

Sweet Glass Cockpit





4.500 YEARS OF HISTORY AND ON.....
Must check: www.e-history.gr

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

T100
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 6:00 PM 

The cockpit of the M2k-5 makes the F-16 B52+ cockpit look really old!


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 6:05 PM 

<<The cockpit of the M2k-5 makes the F-16 B52+ cockpit look really old>>

I suggest the Mirage lovers to take a closer look at the cockpit of the Block 60 which is being produced for the UAE now. M2k-5 looks pretty much antiquated in comparison.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Dienekis)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 6:18 PM 



cockpit of Block 60

i wouldn't call it a huge leap ahead btw...

--------------------------------------------


Now and then...



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Anonymous
(Login NMBS1)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 8:42 PM 

Great news, it's about god damn time

--------------------------------------------





http://www.putfile.com/nmbs1

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 9:44 PM 

"I suggest the Mirage lovers to take a closer look at the cockpit of the Block 60 which is being produced for the UAE now. M2k-5 looks pretty much antiquated in comparison."

Yeah well they paid Eurofighter prices for those Block 60's. They got fleeced.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

T100
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 11:39 PM 

btw, how many are there going to be now?

25 2000-5mk2
2? 2000EGM/BGM

One EGM was lost recently...


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 3 2006, 11:42 PM 

I think EGMs are aroung 35-37...


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 6:59 AM 

Total EGMs were 32 prior to the recent accident so now they are 31.

10 will or have been upgraded to -5, that leaves 21 EGMs to be upgraded in the future.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BK 2
(Login Macross21R)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 8:01 AM 

In an article in one of our defence mags they were saying that the EGM will NOT be upgraded. The reason is that the -5 we are getting aren't qualified for the Exocet missiles.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 9:23 AM 

Who ever wrote that is an idiot (not a rear occasion among journalists). The reason HAF Exocets are not certified for the -5 yet (or are they?) is because HAF didn't ask for it. In the original HAF plans 331sq (Theseas) with the EGMs would fly Exocet missions while 332sq (Geraki) with the -5s would fly SCALP EG missions.

If HAF decides to go for the full upgrade of the Mirage fleet (which seems to be the case) she will ceraintly ask for the certification of the AM-39 on the -5 which will be really trivial to obtain since the weapon is already certified for the base platform (EGM). And ofcourse Dassault will be more than happy to comply. AFAIK other -5 users around the globe don't use the AM-39. L'Armee De'l Air mounts it on the Mirage2000C.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login Bosnian_Lillie)
ANZACs (Australia/New Zealand)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 12:47 PM 

"Yeah well they paid Eurofighter prices for those Block 60's. They got fleeced. "

Well the Rafale and Eurofighter were in the tender. i think the block-60 was better option at the time since they got AESA straight away (no need to wait 10+years), have a proven combat platform and got a lot of extra avionics customisations and other goodies exclusivly developed. what can they do when they have freaking money to throw around, just like the m-2009 deal they signed.

either way the Mirage is the sexiest plane ever.no argument there.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Chris
(Login chrisrobsoar)
The Redcoats (UK)

Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 1:34 PM 

The Dassault Aviation site provides the following information on the Mirage 2000.

The installation of specialised pods allows using the aircraft for dedicated missions such as electronic reconnaissance or in-flight buddy-buddy refuelling of other aircraft.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/defense/gb/avions/m_capacites-emport.cfm


Does the HAL intend to operate buddy-buddy refuelling from M2000-5Mk2 or other aircraft?



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 1:42 PM 

HAF did that with A-7s providing the tank and line for buddy-buddy. I've seen a video where a MirageEGM hooked up to the A-7s cord. HAF wasn't impressed by the tactical advantages the buddy-buddy offered.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 2:07 PM 

"
HAF did that with A-7s providing the tank and line for buddy-buddy. I've seen a video where a MirageEGM hooked up to the A-7s cord. HAF wasn't impressed by the tactical advantages the buddy-buddy offered.
"

Thats true.It's more useful for HAF to try to improve their tactics in fast refueling in the ground and reload of AA missiles at the same time.Buddy refueling won't do much if the A/C run out of missiles.And it is estimated that HAF's fighters (in case of war) will launch all of their AA missiles before the fuel run out.In this case M2ks have a big advantage since they can carry 6 Micas.Also m2ks can fire all of their micas at the same time.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Chris
(Login chrisrobsoar)
The Redcoats (UK)

Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 2:15 PM 

Quote:
Thats true.It's more useful for HAF to try to improve their tactics in fast refueling in the ground and reload of AA missiles at the same time.Buddy refueling won't do much if the A/C run out of missiles.And it is estimated that HAF's fighters (in case of war) will launch all of their AA missiles before the fuel run out.In this case M2ks have a big advantage since they can carry 6 Micas.Also m2ks can fire all of their micas at the same time.


I thought that one of the improvements being introduced in the –5 was adding a refuelling probe?

So the Mirage 2000-5Mk2 can fire 6 Mica missiles simultaneously, I thought that they could only be ripple-fired (at about 1 second intervals).


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 2:30 PM 

@Chris

"
So the Mirage 2000-5Mk2 can fire 6 Mica missiles simultaneously, I thought that they could only be ripple-fired (at about 1 second intervals).
"

i thought so too till i read your link.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/defense/gb/avions/m_capacites-emport.cfm

"
It can fire 6 missiles simultaneously. An aircraft/missile data link feeds in-flight target designation data updates to the launched missile. If circumstances demand, a Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 pilot can also fire the 6 Mica missiles in the fire-and-forget mode, dispensing with the data link. The BVR and "discrete" MICA IR missile firing capability constitutes a threat that is very difficult to counter, even for the best ECM-protected opponent.
"

"
I thought that one of the improvements being introduced in the –5 was adding a refuelling probe?
"

Yes it is.But greece mainly updated the m-2000s in order to have sub-strategic strike capabilities plus AA roles and secondary air-refueling and etc which is less needed in the aegean environment.In the future we might see some -5s using the refuelling probe.I don't know if HAF is any interested at all in buddy refuelling.Miltos might know more on the issue.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

JJ6
(Login JJ6)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 3:59 PM 

First, A-A missiles can be fired simultaneously only by AESA radars. In DP MESA radars, the salvo is fired second per second. You have the impression that the a/c is firing simultaneously, although in reality it doesnt.

From a tactical view, however, you dont fire your A-A missiles in salvo or simultaneously. First, you dont want to stay in a dangerous zone without missiles. Second, the A-A missiles, especially the AIM-120 arent so effective as we think they are... Bear in mind that most -if not all- AIM-120 launches worldwide occured against bandits that were flying str8 and level, cause they didnt have the appropriate RWR to know that someone had locked/searched them. In other words, AFAIK, there isnt any past example were an ARH was launced against a bandit that started evasive maneuvers, after launch.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 4:13 PM 

Second, the A-A missiles, especially the AIM-120 arent so effective as we think they are... Bear in mind that most -if not all- AIM-120 launches worldwide occured against bandits that were flying str8 and level, cause they didnt have the appropriate RWR to know that someone had locked/searched them


Very good points. Exactly like the Phantom/AIM7 was vastly overrated on paper and failed to live up to expectations over SE Asia.

There are many "undisclosed" tactics and counter measures that an experienced pilot will find can "break" radar locks etc. For instance a sudden drop of altitude of more than 5,000 feet of the target can break the lock of certain radars (starting with an APG...?). You won't find any vendor that publicly disclose such mishaps of their own product of course

I'm pretty sure AMRAAMs, especially the early versions, are going to get exposed for numerous such weaknesses if used in a demanding battle enviroment against worthy opponents (and not against unsuspecting bandits like JJ6 pointed out).

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 5:02 PM 

"Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM (F-16 Airframe Details for 86-0063) "MiG Killer", of 322nd sqn, leaving Fairford AB on July 24th, 1999. On March 24th, 1999, this aircraft downed a Serbian MiG-29 with an AIM-120 Amraam."



http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/jdw990401_01_n.shtml


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

JJ6
(Login JJ6)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 4 2006, 6:00 PM 

The Serbian MiG-29, didnt start evasive maneuvers...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login Bosnian_Lillie)
ANZACs (Australia/New Zealand)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 2:03 PM 

and also when a F-15C downed a serbian Mig-29 over Bosnia it had to shoot several AIM-120 to hit the target, eventhough they had already jammed the mig's radar. it all comes down to tactics in the end.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 2:26 PM 

"MiG Killer"???

After you've crippled their Air Defence system, after you've bombed them to oblivion with unimaginable aerial domination, after you've jammed them to death, a SINGLE enemy fighter takes off, God knows why, surely not to fight (any operational flight consists of at least a pair of fighters) - probably to flee, defect or whatever, and the trigger happy morrons rush to the kill since it's the first time they see anything they're allowed to shoot at. Some lucky morron is closest and gets the kill.. And now he's painted the kill mark and is a self proclaimed "MiG killah"?

You know, a sqdrn of Dutch F-16A/B MLUs had visited Tanagra AFB a few years ago and they flew A2A sorties against 331 and 332sqdn. After all these years they are still a joke that brings many laughs at 114CW. They didn't score one kill. "MiG killer"? ok right. If only the MiG could fight back.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

JJ6
(Login JJ6)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 2:49 PM 

The aerial engagements of NATO against Serbia and Iraq were a joke. The last true air battlefield arena was observed in the Iran-Iraq war days, above Libanon in 1982 and to some extend during the Falklands.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 3:54 PM 

<<above Libanon in 1982 and to some extend during the Falklands.<<

True...Mig's had their asses kicked badly in Libanon and French Mirage's theirs in the Falklands by Sea Harriers..


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
kwstas
(Login HopliteHellas)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 4:09 PM 

@Armit
You can't claimm that a Harrier is better than a Mirage III in A2A.Mirage were more A2A capable than Harries.RAF/RN fighters operated under strict GC which gave them advantage plus they were armed with an"exotic"weapon for the early 80's AIM-9M all aspect.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 6:12 PM 

Milto, thank for the informative posts.

I have a couple questions:

How do Greek pilots fair when they train with foreign pilots?
Which countries have poor pilots, average, good ones?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 7:12 PM 

Armit
<<You can't claimm that a Harrier is better than a Mirage III in A2A.Mirage were more A2A capable than Harries.RAF/RN fighters operated under strict GC which gave them advantage plus they were armed with an"exotic"weapon for the early 80's AIM-9M all aspect.<<

I am sorry but my claim is justified..The scorecard revealed 32:0 in favor of Sea Harrier resulting in a total humiliation of hardware made by Dassault.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 5 2006, 7:16 PM 

They had 5 minutes over the the Falklands, I'm not surprised from that ratio; and you should not let your hatred against Dassault take over your brain.

Plus the Mirages had Magic I, no BVR weapons crappy radar compared to Blue Vixen...


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Polaris
(Login independence-1919)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 12:11 AM 

Thats the real cocpit. Pilot is the observer inside it.





"Independence is My Character"
M. Kemal ATATÜRK

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 12:22 AM 

I would like to see any version of the Harrier against any Mirage 2000 variant.

Dassault makes top line stuff. Just ask the Israelis.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 12:59 AM 

I totaly agree ^^^^


M-2000 or -5 variants will kick the a** of any harrier.
That's not a new discovery it's a matter of common sence.
M-2000's competition is Vipers not Harriers plus Vipers think that is impossible to counter M-2000s at certain altiltudes(that is a fact).

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login GrkWebMaster)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 2:08 PM 

Like to update everyone on the Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII upgrades are going ahead dassualt has resolved previouse issue's and 4 more have been sent for upgrades.


See my Site Greek Military Photos
http://www.greekmilitary.net
Visit http://turkishdenial.com/

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 7:31 PM 

<<They had 5 minutes over the the Falklands, I'm not surprised from that ratio; and you should not let your hatred against Dassault take over your brain<<


5 minutes is more than enough to win or lose a dogfight. I could easily say that you should not let your(and the majority of my Greek friends in this thread as well ) excessive admiration for everyting made in France and your hatred against everything made in US/UK take over your brain..I have no reason to hate Dassault...Mirage III has enjoyed great popularity after the Arab-Israeli war in 1967 and lost it again very badly in the Falklands..This is a fact my friend.


<<M-2000 or -5 variants will kick the a** of any harrier.

Yes but an F-14 armed with Phoenix will kich the a.. of a squadron of Mirage's attacking an American aircraft carrier..




The subject matter here is MirageIII and not M 2000... Sea Harrier has proved herself as a formidable opponent of MirageIII in low altitute dogfights in the Falklands and kicked the a@@ of the French made fighter very badly..Besides Matra Magic was maybe not as good as the Sidewinders in 1982 but almost evenly matched...The Argentine Mirage pilots were among the best trained fighter pilots in South America..The scorecard 32:0 speaks for itself.Please no excuse...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

T100
(Login darkhelmet03)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 7:44 PM 

Can you really compare the training of Arrgentinian pilots with that of RAF/RN pilots at the time?

As you said they were the best among South-American pilots. But we are talking here about RN which has tradition of excellence and training tht is not simply comparable to that of the Argentinian forces.

In today's world I would easily say that the RN pilots were like Greek or Israeli pilots (with hours of real dogfights or heavey tranining) vs the Argentinian pilots which were more comparable to pilots of a central european country that simply use some LANTIRN from time to time but kno sh*t of actual dogfighting....


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
kwstas
(Login HopliteHellas)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 8:06 PM 

@ Armit
it isn't an issue of french hardware against US/UK we have 2 different plane soptimised for different roles check out parameters like turn ratio,instant turn ratio,power excess,climbing rate and you will see thta the Mirage III is/were a better dogfighter than the Harriers.Obviously in A2A there are other factors tha count pe missiles,GC,pilot training etc.
By claiming that Harrier(a unuque airplane wich is optimised for other missions than dogfight)is better than Mirage III is like claiming that A-10 is a better dogfighter than a F-5.
It isn't US/UK vs French planes

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 8:57 PM 


Armit, again you're talking about something you don't know with only bias to make your mind.

Here, in the following link, there ARE people who know .... it one Harrier pilot and one Aussi Mirage III pilot debatting about the Falkland war

Here the link:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=109;t=000056
(extreemely interesting)

And in Irak/Iran war, the Mirage F1 were making strike missions...
The only time when the Iraki decided a only AA fight mission against the F14 the result was 4 losses each side.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 8:59 PM 

"Yes but an F-14 armed with Phoenix will kich the a.. of a squadron of Mirage's attacking an American aircraft carrier.."


If a squadron of Mirage 2000-5's attacked an aircraft carrier with Exocets and SCALPS, I'd say that carrier is pretty fvcked.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 9:27 PM 

Oh by the way, the Mirage III is a Second Generation plane and the Harrier a Third Generation plane.

Also, the Argies had inferior training and the Brits received Sidewinders from the Yanks.

Put a British pilot in a Harrier or Tornado against a Greek Mirage 2000 pilot and let's see what happens.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 9:39 PM 

Quote from the previous link:

The sea Harrier undoubdetly was used by the RN/RAF pilots consumately against a foe flying very very far from home (The RN relatively close to their carriers by comparison), and with no where near the operational experience the RN/RAF brought to the fight. Though what the Argentines achieved was staggering considering the circumstances.

Against a similary trained opponent operating with the same range restrictions then The Harrier is not as flash as the all the hype that has been attributed it in the Air Combat role. That said it was the only aeroplane the Brits had to do the job. If they had still had F4s and Buccaneers I doubt if the Argentines would have even attempted a Falklands invasion. THE F4K Look down capability would have been a far more daunting threat to the Argentines than the Harrier ever was.

As to Sea Harrier FRS1 versus Mirage III a few points. The Mirage III sustained turn performance is better than the Sea Harrier. The Mirage III instantaneous turn performance is also better than a Non VIFF Harrier.

The defensive VIFF is something to behold. Few if any aeroplanes can track a Harrier through it, though it renders the Harrier a Flare imo [Smile] Offensive Viffing using small amounts of nozzle movement a process the brits call "Nozziling" can be used to advantage in Lag turn contests but it too extracts an energy penalty for an already taxed energy aeroplane, but if it results in a valid shot so be it.

the Mirage/Dagger with 2 x 1700litre tanks (the most common configuration used by the Argentines) will happily sit at 600KIAS at sea level. The Sea Harrier with a couple of external tanks will be struggling.

The Sea Harrier RCS is absolutely huge in comparison to the Mirage III. Niether aircraft had Look down capability. The R550 is/was a better close in Missile than the AIM9L. The R550 autoscan lock ability was awesome in comparison the AIM9L mechanisation in the Sea Harrier at the time of the conflict. The R530 was an absolute meanace to the firer [Smile] .The Shaffir was no competition to the AIM9L (or the R550 for that matter)The AIM9L had better legs and better angle capabilty... important since the Harrier was at a real speed disadvantage. The Mirage III is of suffcient performance advantage to be able to dictate the fight.


Also





 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:09 PM 

<<If a squadron of Mirage 2000-5's attacked an aircraft carrier with Exocets and SCALPS, I'd say that carrier is pretty fvcked.<<

This squadron of M2000'S would be detected by a Grumman Hawkeye 400 miles away and blown out of sky before they could get any closer than 200 miles...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:18 PM 

Guys, leave armit alone, his total bias is obvious.. no room for constructive dicussion.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:25 PM 

<<Put a British pilot in a Harrier or Tornado against a Greek Mirage 2000 pilot and let's see what happens.<<

How do you know that? Do we have to believe that the M 2000 is the greatest fighter plane of all times,unbeatable,so good that even the allmighty god can't beat it because the Greeks say so?

How about a USAF pilot in a Raptor against a Greek Mirage 2000?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

MASTER_X9
(Login MASTER_X9)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:28 PM 

""If a squadron of Mirage 2000-5's attacked an aircraft carrier with Exocets and SCALPS, I'd say that carrier is pretty fvcked.""

OHOHHH Are you sure?


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:32 PM 

Quote:
How about a USAF pilot in a Raptor against a Greek Mirage 2000?



How about you start debating and accepting the hard truth rather than making up scenaria just to disagree?


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 10:33 PM 

<<Obviously in A2A there are other factors tha count pe missiles,GC,pilot training etc<<



It is highly unlikely to achieve a score of 32:0 as a result of these factors only..

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 11:10 PM 

It's hopeless trying to debate with this guy. You present proof and all he says is "32-0".

Phoebus you seem like a pretty smart guy. What would happen if a squadron of Mirage 2000-5's let go SCALPS and EXOCETS on a carrier? Would it do anything?

Could a plane with a Exocet Block 3 (180km range) even get close enough?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 11:10 PM 



<<<<<It is highly unlikely to achieve a score of 32:0 as a result of these factors only..<<<<<

Almost all all them (not only MIII but also Skyhawks, Daggers, Canberras) were shooted by G to A shot while the Argie attempted desesperately (and very bravely) to stike ships with GBUs.

For AA fights, you've got the answer already, don't argue ... unless you can procure new sources and data of course. I so, please, let us know.




 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 11:14 PM 

"Yes but an F-14 armed with Phoenix will kich the a.. of a squadron of Mirage's attacking an American aircraft carrier.."


I just have to add that hasn't the US NAVY replaced all F14's with the latest F18's?

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 11:22 PM 

There was another time in a Dynamic Mix 1998 exercise that, about 30 greek Mirage F-1CGs and F-4Es "sunk" USS Theodore Roosvlelt. They were supposed to be the REDs and they had to bomb and repel a BLUE USMC Landing Force, heading towards the Peloponissos region.

Instead, the RED Greek Command decided to bomb the Air Carrier group, and then deal with the Marines. The problem was that, even in exercises, AEGIS AA destroyers are automaticaly configured to shoot at every target that reaches WVR of the carrier group.

The Result was dozens of Mirages and Phantoms Storming the sky over USS Th.R. and scoring tens of free fall 1000lb - 2000lb bomb hits... AEGIs didn't work at all, and the next day there was a true fighting scene in the Senate, about USN capabilities etc.

The next day USA and NATO infromed HAF to stick to exercise plans and ask permission whenever they decide to bomnb a carrier group!

Now these were just exercises.... Don't be afraid of them, they don't think they just obey orders and rely on automation and computers too much.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 6 2006, 11:31 PM 

Thank you.

It's just when I hear ppl say ridiculous things like a squadron (so say anywhere from 12-20) Mirage 2000's with Exocets, SCALPS etc couldn't touch a carrier, it's bordeline ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as trying to discredit DASSAULT.

I know the US NAVY is scared of the Silkworm missile.

The US relies too much on coputers and technology. This is a weakness in places like Iraq, where in 15-20 yrs time they'll admit they were defeated.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Chris
(Login chrisrobsoar)
The Redcoats (UK)

Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 7 2006, 4:23 PM 

Not 32:0!

The Sea Harrier FRS 1 were equipped with the Blue Fox radar, which did not have any look-down capability. The latter Sea Harrier FAS 2 were equipped with the Blue Vixen radar, which did have a Pulse Doppler mode giving it a look-down capability. This aircraft has been withdrawn for service. 8 of the aircraft have been sold to India, without the radar.

Summary of Argentinean Aircraft Losses to Harrier Aircraft

2 Mirage IIIEA
1 Canberra B.62
1 Pucara
6 A-4C ( A-4B, A-4Q)Skyhawks
7 Dagger A
1 Hercules C.130E
18 Total
9 of which had some A2A capability.

In all there were 100 aircraft lost, including accidents, captured and destroyed on the ground.

Summary of UK Aircraft Losses (All Causes)

2 Sea Harrier Ground fire
4 Sea Harrier Accident
3 Harrier GR.3 Ground fire
1 Harrier GR.3 Accident
10 Total

None in A2A combat.

In all there were 34 aircraft lost, (helicopters) including accidents and destroyed on the ground and at sea.

There was only one air kill, where a Pucara shot down a Scout Helicopter.

Including those transferred from No.899 HQ Training Squadron, 12 were scraped together for "Hermes'" No.800 and 8 for "Invincible's" No.801 NAS. Thus 20 aircraft, some piloted by the RAF, had to defend the Fleet against 100 plus Argentine attackers. Only in mid-May were they reinforced by Harriers eight more Sea of No.809 NAS (plus six RAF GR.3's). Just six Navy Harriers were lost by accident or ground fire, and not one in air-to-air fighting.

http://www.naval-history.net/F20faa.htm

So in total 34 Harriers were deployed 28 Sea Harriers FRS 1 and 6 Harrier GR3s, of these 6 Sea Harriers were lost, 4 Harrier GR3s 10 in total, 21%, 67% and 29% respectively of the aircraft deployed. The heavy losses of the Harrier GR3 reflects their wholly ground attack mission.

50% of the losses were due to accidents and 50% to ground fire.

Indeed as the Harrier GR3s were not modified for naval operations at sea the two surviving RAF Harrier GR3s were so badly corroded they on return to the UK they were scrapped.

These links are may source. After the links are extracts that give the details of each loss mentioned in the above summary.

Not 32:0, but 9:0

And that's when the aircraft were operating at extreme range and were largely engaged in A2G missions.


http://www.naval-history.net/F41argaircraft.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/F64argaircraftlost.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/F63braircraftlost.htm

Argentinean Aircraft Losses to Harrier Aircraft

Saturday 1st May

[a5] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejected safely.

[a6] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 damaged in same incident north of West Falkland by Lt Thomas RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder. Then shot down over Stanley by own AA defences (4.15 pm). and Capt Cuerva killed

[a7] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed.

[a8] - Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down north of Falklands by Lt Curtiss RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (5.45 pm). Lt Ibanez and Gonzalez ejected but are not rescued.

Friday 21st May

[a35] - Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 shot down near Darwin by Cmdr Ward RN in one of three Sea Harriers of No.801 NAS using 30mm cannon (12.10 pm). Major Tomba ejected.

[a36, a37] - Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 shot down near Chartres, West Falkland by Lt Cmdr Blissett and Lt Cmdr Thomas RN in No.800 Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (1.05 pm). Lt Lopez and Lt Manzotti killed.

[a38] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down near Teal River Inlet, West Falkland by Lt Cmdr Frederiksen RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (2.35 pm). Lt Luna ejected.

[a39, a40, a41] - Two Dagger A's of FAA Grupo 6 shot down north of Port Howard, West Falkland by Lt Thomas and a third by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (2.50 pm). Maj Piuma, Capt Donaldille and Lt Senn all ejected.

[a42] - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound by Lt Morell RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (3.12 pm). Lt Cmdr Philippi ejected.

[a43] - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc also shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound in same incident by Flt Lt Leeming RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using 30mm cannon (3.12 pm). Lt Marquez was killed.

Sunday 23rd May

[a49] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over Pebble Island by Lt Hale RN in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.00 pm). Lt Volponi killed.

Monday 24th May

[a50, a51, a52] - Two Dagger A's of FAA Grupo 6 shot down north of Pebble Island by Lt Cmdr Auld and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 Sea Harriers using Sidewinder (11.15 am). Maj Puga and Capt Diaz ejected, but Lt Castillo killed.

Tuesday 1st June

[a65] - Hercules C.130E of FAA Transport Grupo 1 shot down 50 miles North of Pebble Island by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder and 30mm cannon (10.45 am). Crew of seven killed.

Tuesday 8th June

[a67, a68, a69] - Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Flt Lt Morgan RAF and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 NAS Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (4.45 pm). Lt Arraras, Lt Bolzan and Ensign Vazquez killed.

UK Harrier Losses (All causes)

Tuesday 4th May

[b4] - Sea Harrier of No.800 NAS, HMS Hermes shot down over Goose Green by radar-controlled, 35mm Oerlikon fire (1.10 pm). Lt Taylor RN killed.

Thursday 6th May

[b5, b6] - Two Sea Harriers of No.801 NAS, HMS Invincible lost in bad weather, presumably by collision, south east of Falklands (9.00 am). Lt Curtiss and Lt Cmdr Eyton-Jones RN lost.

Friday 21st May

[b13] - Harrier GR.3 of 1(F) Sqdn RAF shot down over Port Howard, West Falkland probably by Blowpipe SAM (9.35 am). Flt Lt Glover ejected and injured, was taken prisoner-of-war.

Sunday 23rd May

[b15] - Sea Harrier of No.800 NAS, HMS Hermes crashed into sea north east of Falklands shortly after take-off and exploded (7.55 pm). Lt Cmdr Batt RN killed

Thursday 27th May

[b27] - Harrier GR.3 of 1(F) Sqdn RAF shot down over Goose Green probably by 35mm Oerlikon fire (1.35 pm). Sqdn Ldr Iveson ejected to the west, hid up and later rescued.

Saturday 29th May

[b29] - Sea Harrier of No.801 NAS, HMS Invincible ready for take-off, slid off the deck as the carrier turned into wind to the east of Falklands (3.50 pm). Lt Cmdr Broadwater RN ejected and was safely picked up.

Sunday 30th May

[b30] - Harrier GR.3 of 1(F) Sqdn RAF damaged near Stanley by small arms fire from Argentine troops. Ran out of fuel short of "Hermes" and Sqdn Ldr Pook RAF ejected to be picked up to east of the Falklands (12.20 pm).

Tuesday 1st June

[b31] - Sea Harrier of No.801 NAS, HMS Invincible shot down south of Stanley by Roland SAM (2.40 pm). Flt Lt Mortimer RAF ejected and was later rescued from the sea.

Tuesday 8th June

[b33] - Harrier GR.3 of 1(F) Sqdn RAF landed heavily at Port San Carlos with partial engine failure, and was damaged beyond repair (12.00 pm). Wing Cmdr Squire escaped unhurt



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 8 2006, 11:32 AM 

To all: Please do not compare Aircraft of different classes and or generations.

For instance, the Mirage III and the Mirage 2000 belong to different generations.

OTOH, the F-14 and the Mirage 2000 have no serious generation difference, the two are incomparable because of their class/role difference. IOW you are comparing a twin-engine super expensive super advanced for its day interceptor that was built to provide an umbrella against Soviet Nuc threats to a cheaper single engine interceptor that was built to provide the back bone of an airforce's fighters (IOW build in large numbers). The M2K is comparable to the F-16. Period. The F-14 is comparable to the MiG-31. Period. The F-15 is comparable to the Su-27. Period.

Don't compare apples and oranges.

As to the age-old Falklands dispute there are three main reasons for the result:

1) The AIM-9L (not M) which was the first true IR all aspect missile (the R530 was not IR even). The "ALL aspect" means tactics change or you die b4 the dogfight even starts. The Argies weren't aware of the goodies that RN Harriers were packing.

2) The superior training of RN pilots as proven by the fact that despite their better missiles they scored several kills from the "rear hemisphere" IOW not even taking advantage of their all-aspect IR sensors.

3) The Argentine pilots had a tough envelope to fly: Priorities were to find and attack ships. And all that with a pretty low fuel reserve. Defending was obviously easier.


Armit, if you read the very interesting article posted by our French friend you will see that those same MIIIs tought Harriers a painful lesson only a year later - simply because they were flown by men who knew what their machines could do.


Barba,
about your question: HAF M2K pilots have NO respect for European pilots they have flown against. They consider them tousist pilots with no sense for ACM. US pilots are more realistically trained but they don't have the will to pull the G's like Greek and Turkish Pilots do regularly. They rely on US domination of the battle field too much so man for man they're not at all impressive aviators. Still, better than Europeans. Israelis are the best by far. What remains to be seen is how will the traditionally good AFs like RAF and the LuftWaffe perform now that they have a true high performance fighter (Typhoon) at last.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 8 2006, 11:55 AM 

<<Armit, if you read the very interesting article posted by our French friend you will see that those same MIIIs tought Harriers a painful lesson only a year later - simply because they were flown by men who knew what their machines could do.<<


Thanks Miltos... I already have...

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 8 2006, 1:02 PM 

<<To all: Please do not compare Aircraft of different classes and or generations.<<

Hi Miltos,

IMO these fighters should be compared with each other..Do you agree with
this:

1-Mirage III,F-5,Mig -21

2-Mirage F-1,Phantom F-4,Mig 23,SU-24

3-Tornado,F-16,F-18 ,Mirage 2000,Mig -29

4-F-15,SU-27,Mig-25

5-F-14 ,Mig -31

6-EF,Rafale,Saab grippen ,SU-30,35

7- F-22 ,no comparison at the moment



 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 8 2006, 1:05 PM 

Su-24M Fencer is not a fighter.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 8 2006, 2:12 PM 

Hi armit, not sure about some in your list.
1-Mirage III,F-5,Mig -21
Sounds fair yes

2-Mirage F-1,Phantom F-4,Mig 23,SU-24
Mirage F-1 shouldn't be compared to the Phantom IMO. It's a single engine fighter with decreased speed, range, payload and radar capabilities than the Phantom. OTOH its lighter and alot more agile so in close combat it wins hands down. But it's role is CAP (the French also used it for TASMO I believe), whereas the Phantom can do many more things.

3-Tornado,F-16,F-18 ,Mirage 2000,Mig -29
F-16, M2K, MiG29 yes. Tornado no. Should go with A-7 and Jaguar. F-18 nope. Should go to group 4 below.

4-F-15,SU-27,Mig-25
I'd replace the MiG-25 Foxbat with the F/A-18. Not sure what category the MiG-25 goes under. Its only advantage is very high ceiling/speed. There aren't any other fighters today that go under that mission profile that I can think of.

5-F-14 ,Mig -31
Yep

6-EF,Rafale,Saab grippen ,SU-30,35 Sure.

7- F-22 ,no comparison at the moment
Yes I agree.

Sometimes Fighters can be compared to the ones they replace, regardless of generation / roles.

For example the F-4 (and other fighters) was replaced by the F-15 which in turn will be replaced by the F-22A (already strike abilities are incorporated in the A variant). The idea behind all three is a twin engine high performance high tech aerial domination + strike platform that will ensure USAF total qualitative dominance.

The F-5 (and other fighters) was replaced by the F-16 which in turn will be replaced by the JSF. IOW a high performance, small range, "back-bone" fighter that can be produced, deployed, maintained and serviced in high numbers for low costs.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login AASM)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 9 2006, 9:02 AM 

Interesting thread both on the HAF Mirage 2000 and the Mirage III.
It is ironic that some people claim to know more than they really know.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login c-seven)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 9 2006, 11:16 AM 

<<<<1) The AIM-9L (not M) which was the first true IR all aspect missile (the R530 was not IR even). The "ALL aspect" means tactics change or you die b4 the dogfight even starts. The Argies weren't aware of the goodies that RN Harriers were packing.<<<<

The R550 Magic was already a much better missile than the AIM-9L as shown in the link.

Quote:
The R550 is/was a better close in Missile than the AIM9L. The R550 autoscan lock ability was awesome in comparison the AIM9L mechanisation in the Sea Harrier at the time of the conflict. The R530 was an absolute meanace to the firer [Smile] .The Shaffir was no competition to the AIM9L (or the R550 for that matter)The AIM9L had better legs and better angle capabilty... important since the Harrier was at a real speed disadvantage.

But the Argies had Isreeli Shafrir which was a crap.

The R530 is for BVR (small BVR ~25km range) and is EM.
AIM-9L, R550 Magic and Shafrir are WVR and are IR.


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login AASM)
La Grande Armee (France)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 10 2006, 8:54 AM 

Isreeli Shafrir


It was a second generation IR missile, it had a limited field of view and tracking rate and was very susceptible to evasive manoeuvres such as a hard turn.

Aircrafts using first or second generation missiles often needed up to 5 minutes of agressive manoeuvres to get in position to deliver a valid shot.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 10 2006, 11:08 PM 

Milto, thanks for the post, much appreciated. With all you know you should be flying Mirages.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous
(Login armit)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 15 2006, 12:09 PM 



c-seven,


Here is an interesting comment from an Aargentine....Mirage versus Harrier.



The Argentine pilots (years before the conflict) had trained - some in France, others in Israel - but in their majority on the ground and therefore, when the war began, they discovered that on the water they were much more vulnerable, since they had not been prepared to fight in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. For that reason, when making the attacks to the British ships, the pilots chose to fly over the islands, to apply what they had learned in their training: low fly-by, avoiding the undulations of the land, to be not detected by the ships or the Harriers. Often it worked, since the patrols of Harriers that were deployed from the aircraft carriers (HMS Hermes or HMS Invincible) could not detect them. Nevertheless, sometimes it happened that the Harriers detected them and, as the argentine aircrafts were not prepared for the Air-to-Air combat (because they were fully loaded with bombs and fuel tanks), they were shooted down by the UK pilots.

In addition , the British counted with the AIM-9L Sidewinder (better than the R550 Magic I or Shafrir missiles), and a great support of the U.S.A., as much in armament, as in communications and provisions.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Lakedaimon
(Login miltos75)
WAFFer

Re: Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!

No score for this post
May 15 2006, 3:16 PM 

C-Seven,

The R550 Magic was already a much better missile than the AIM-9L as shown in the link

I don't know much about the R550 to comment so confidently on it's match-up against the AIM-9L.

When I served, HAF M2Ks bore the Magic II. The latter was indeed superior to the AIM-9L/M that HAF F-16s were packing - but only marginally, not drastically.

The Magic II had a more sensitive IR sensor which resulted in a somewhat quicker lock buzz signal than respectively the AIM-9L. Also, the sensor head had a greater angle of movement (+/- 10 degrees if I'm not mistaken) which resulted in a slightly greater forward lock cone. That, coupled with the MagicIIs great aerodynamic performance made it possible to score a Fox2 at slightly greater angles and shorter moments than with the AIM-9 series.

But like I said all the above constitute marginal differences. I find it hard to believe that the predecessor of the Magic II was already better than the Lima (it would mean no real improvement from Magic I to Magic II). Especially since I never saw it referred to as an "all aspect" IR missile anywhere, contrary to the AIM-9L.

Cheers,

Miltos

AIEN ARISTEYEIN!

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Current Topic - Mirage 2000 - 5 mkII news!!  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
WAFF recommends these sites

Indian Defence Analysis      [Definitive Lapse of Reason]