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Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

June 25 2006 at 2:53 PM
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  (Login Aselsan)
The Conquerors (Turkey)





How the Greek Rebellion Began

When Sultan Mahmut II, who was a patient and determined ruler, tried to strengthened the weakening Ottoman Empire with reform, he fell out with Ali Pasha of Tepedelen, the governor of Jannina. When the governor revolted against the Sultan in 1820, his action inspired the Greek revolutionaries to rise up to benefit from the rift among the Turkish rulers.9,24 The Greeks began their rebellion in the Peloponnese on 6 April 1821 (by the Gregorian calendar-25 March by the Julian calendar) with the slogan: "Not a Turk shall remain in the Morea", which inspired indiscriminate and murderous action against all Muslims.16 Upon hearing the news of the rebellion, some Greeks in the cities began killing their Turkish neighbours and setting fire to their property.13, According to the British writer William St. Clair, "The savage passion for revenge soon degenerated into a frenzied delight in killing and horror for their own sakes". Another British writer, David Howarth, observes that the Greeks did not need any reason for these murders, "Once they had started…they killed because a mad blood-lust had come upon them all, and everyone was killing".15,24

Massacres of the Turks

It is estimated that more than 50,000 Muslims , including women and children, lived in the Peloponnese in March 1821. A month later, when the Greeks were celebrating Easter, there was hardly anyone left. The few who managed to escape to fortified cities were suffering from starvation. Everywhere the unburied bodies of murdered Turks were rotting. According to William St. Clair:

"The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821, unmourned and unnoticed by the rest of the world…Upwards of 20,000 Turkish men, women and children were murdered by their Greek neighbours in a few weeks of slaughter. They were killed deliberately, without qualm and scruple…Turkish families living in single farms or small isolated communities were summarily put to death, and their homes burnt down over their corpses. Others, when the disturbances began, abondened home to seek the security of the nearest town, but the defenceless streams of refugees were overwhelmed by bands of armed Greeks. In the smaller towns, the Turkish communities barricaded their houses and attempted to defend themselves as best as they could, but few survived. In some places, they were driven by hunger to surrender to their attackers on receiving promises of security, but these were seldom honoured. The men were killed at once, and the women and children divided out as slaves usually to be killed in their turn later. All over the Pelopennese roamed mobs of Greeks armed with clubs, scythes, and a few firearms, killing, plundering and burning. They were often led by Christian priests, who exhorted them to greater efforts in their holy work".24

According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Pelopennesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".23 This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics.

In 1861, the historian George Finlay wrote:

"In the month of April 1821, a Muslim population amounting to upwards of 20,000 souls, was living, dispersed in Greece, employed in agriculture. Before two months had elapsed, the greater part was slain-men, women and children were murdered without mercy or remorse…The crime was a nation’s crime, and whatever perturbations it may produce must be in a nation’s conscience, as the deeds by which it can be expiated must be the acts of a nation."12

According to the historian C.M. Woodhouse, the entire Turkish population of cities and towns were collected and marched out to convenient places in the countryside where they were slaughtered.30 In Greek Orthodox Romania also, the leader of the Greek rebellion, Alexander Ypsilanti, and his supporters took the towns of Galatz and Yassy. The Turks were surprised and massacred in cold blood.10,22




 
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(Login minotauro1453)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 2:54 PM 

if they have the balls they must do the same now

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Dies irae
(Login AHERON)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 3:42 PM 

...Hmmmm...strange!

William St. Clair Tisdall
George Finlay
C.M. Woodhouse

NEVER wrote those things in any of their books which you can actually buy even online!

Writting such BS yourself or any of your propaganda shyt(e) and putting signatures of well known writers/scholars as their own work, is immoral to say the least.


 
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(Login canilupus)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 3:52 PM 

@ AHERON

Out of topic,Its nice to see a forumer interrested in Dies Irae

Here is the part that I like most :

Judex ergo cum sedebit, So when the Judge shall sit,
quidquid latet apparebit: whatever is hidden shall be seen,
nil inultum remanebit. nothing shall remain unpunished.


I do also like other hymn's about Judgment Day but sure Day of Wrath is a perfect dark one.

Cheers

-----------------------------------------------------------------




"Mankind is a single body and each nation a part of that body. We must never say 'What does it matter to me if some part of the world is ailing?' If there is such an illness, we must concern ourselves with it as though we were having that illness."

M.Kemal ATATURK

 
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Anonymous
(Login bozotheclown007)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 4:16 PM 

Nobody is going to believe these lies. We all know the Turks are the No 1 in massacres worldwide... they even gave Hitler a run for his money.

Lies, lies and more lies... greeks never committed atrocities. It is not in our nature to be killers.


 
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Phoebus
(Login me31fm)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 6:37 PM 

Quote:
Turks were surprised and massacred in cold blood.


What did you expect them to do, keep them as POW according to the Geneva convention?

All revolutions, from the French up to the American and the Helenic went exactly like this and the turkish settlers paid for it, with no doubt.

_________________________________________________________



"The summer is here, lower your weapons and storm the nearest beach."
Phoebus, 2006 A.C.


 
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BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:08 PM 

"if they have the balls they must do the same now"

This is the year 2006. Civilized countries don't do these things anymore. Unfortunately the Kurds are facing alot of these attrocities at the hands of the brutal and oppressive Turkish state.

 
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(Login minotauro1453)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:11 PM 

32 years still waiting

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PHAETHON
(Login phaethon)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:23 PM 




4.500 YEARS OF HISTORY AND ON.....
Must check: www.e-history.gr

 
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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:29 PM 

What a bunch of lies!!!!
Greek soldiers during the Independence War never commited these acts as you mention!!!

 
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Anonymous
(Login psychoballistics)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:49 PM 

Dude
my grandfateher was one of the Suvaris (cavalary man) in Ege (aegean). He always said that Greek soldiers even killed kids , women and animals in the small villages they passed by while they were retreating.
But beleive me my friend he never blamed anybody, he used to say that "it was a bloody war both side had to face" He never cried , never bitched like you do.


bende kullanabilrmiyim bu sigi???


 
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(Login minotauro1453)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:50 PM 

kullan yiyen

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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 10:56 PM 

"Dude
my grandfateher was one of the Suvaris (cavalary man) in Ege (aegean). He always said that Greek soldiers even killed kids , women and animals in the small villages they passed by while they were retreating.
But beleive me my friend he never blamed anybody, he used to say that "it was a bloody war both side had to face" He never cried , never bitched like you do. "

ha ha what a lier!!!!


killing babies...maybe you talk from your own experiences hah?

 
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Anonymous
(Login psychoballistics)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:00 PM 

you didnt find anything to say , right??
:))
let me guess you didnt find any ancestor to talk


 
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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:04 PM 

Most of my ancestors live fine and healthy.

Now mongol **** shut the **** up.Ok turanian dog ,missing link between man and mountain gorilla...stay in your ****land for ever and **** all the time cause you are a ****,a garbage of menkind you and all your ancestors and all your ruined lineage..ok?****?

 
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(Login minotauro1453)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:08 PM 

psychoballistic issue a warning!

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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:14 PM 

Minotauro..he sugested that my family were killed by his ****ing grandfather?What your response would be?



Anyway,maybe i went to far.let keep it civilized..

 
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Anonymous
(Login NMBS1)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:22 PM 

minotauro, you've been on WAFF all day, get a life... Every time I sign on, you're here. Don't you have any friends or better things to do throughout the day?









--------------------------------------------

"We do not get involved in aggressive moves, but provocations will receive the proper answer."
- Greek Defence Minister Evangelos Meimarakis



Updated: http://www.putfile.com/nmbs1



 
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Anonymous
(Login Megali_idea)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:24 PM 

The greeks heros fighted for the freedom in battles and not like you turks against civilians!Yes the greeks massacred...your armys! In massacring women and children your are at best like everybody saw against the armenians! So your silly propaganda storys can you put where it belongs...



"Pas tourkos, barbaros"

"pali me xronia me kairous, pali dika mas tha ´nai"
- With ages and with time, it will be ours again -

"The last greek visionary died 70 years ago..."
- Elefterios Venizelos ,1864-1936 -

 
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Anonymous
(Login bozotheclown007)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:26 PM 

minotauro please remove the pic in your sig showing western thrace as turkish... it is porvocative




 
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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:28 PM 

nice map megali idea!!!!I make a font of it on my computer screen!!

"Ma h ellada os gnoston...pote tis den pethainei..kai ops sosta enas megas profitis exei pei .....KAPOIA STIGMH UA ANASTHUEI!!"

 
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(Login Megali_idea)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:31 PM 

I have it bigger if you like it!





"Pas tourkos, barbaros"

"pali me xronia me kairous, pali dika mas tha ´nai"
- With ages and with time, it will be ours again -

"The last greek visionary died 70 years ago..."
- Elefterios Venizelos ,1864-1936 -

 
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PanDemon
(Login PanDemon)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:35 PM 

but i want in the map also Crimaia to be greek,Armenia to be great,new Osetia state and Georgia to take parts of the Azeris!!!hah!!!
Great!!!!


 
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(Login Megali_idea)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:43 PM 

Good idea! Maybe i will arrange that in my next Photoshop session!



"Pas tourkos, barbaros"

"pali me xronia me kairous, pali dika mas tha ´nai"
- With ages and with time, it will be ours again -

"The last greek visionary died 70 years ago..."
- Elefterios Venizelos ,1864-1936 -

 
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(Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 25 2006, 11:58 PM 

Quote:





My poor @Minotauro....

You Want the Western Thrace.....

Well why does your "Superior" Super Powerfull Army dont come and get it?






Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the the UN SECURITY COUNCIL'S DECISION OF 24 NOVEMBER 1981.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Thucydides)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 1:56 AM 

Greeks never invited Muslims to come to Peloponessos. Muslims assumed the risk of settling another's land.

 
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Psycho
(Login Besiktasli)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 1:59 AM 


Greeks are animals bro... Im telling you peeps, The Ottomans should of had wiped them all out when they had the chance, but us muslims cant do that.. Its aginst islam to kill children and women!

Currently dominating the Mediterranean & Aegean skies (CCIP upgrades to begin 2008)
F-16

Coming Soon
EuroFighter & F-35 (JSF)

 
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Leonidas
(Login Leonidas-V)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 2:23 AM 

-Greeks are animals bro... Im telling you peeps, The Ottomans should of had wiped them all out when they had the chance, but us muslims cant do that.. Its aginst islam to kill children and women!-

Its never too late mate...Why don't you finish your ancestors' job??Wipe us out!!!!Or die trying......lol...

 
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BarbaMitso
(Login BarbaMitso)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:35 AM 

"Greeks are animals bro... Im telling you peeps, The Ottomans should of had wiped them all out when they had the chance, but us muslims cant do that.. Its aginst islam to kill children and women!"

Greeks are "animals"? hahaha Right, ask a European or American what they think of Greeks and Turks and wait and see their responses. Turks are looked at as savages in the world.

LOLOLOL Muslims don't kill women and children? LOLOLOLOLOL Right. And they don't behead ppl either.

Maybe Alexander should have marched to Mongolia, pulled your ancestors from their caves and trees and slaughtered them. But that isn't the Greek way. It never was.

 
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ALEXANDER THE GREAT
(Login ALEXANDER-THE-GREEK)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 2:25 PM 

@Minotauro (and the Rest Turkish kindergarten) my Question Remain:
You want our Thrace?
why does your "Superior" Super Powerfull Army dont come and get it?




Maybe because then you will find out how "Animals" We Greeks can be when someone try to attack us!








Agia-Sofia: The Greatest Church of Christianity now operates as a museum despite the the UN SECURITY COUNCIL'S DECISION OF 24 NOVEMBER 1981.

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 2:31 PM 


Alexander Brother


they simply can't, if they could, they would have already

Turkey is just Bark, and most of these Turks here are just Bark as well

and to top it off, If Greece and Turkey would go to war, guys like them two, would be the first ones to run the other way and hide under the passport of the countries they are currently living in


















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Greek Shark trainer, Training Killer Sharks to interecpt Trespassing turks in the Aegean




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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 2:44 PM 

"..Hmmmm...strange!

William St. Clair Tisdall
George Finlay
C.M. Woodhouse

NEVER wrote those things in any of their books which you can actually buy even online!

Writting such BS yourself or any of your propaganda shyt(e) and putting signatures of well known writers/scholars as their own work, is immoral to say the least."



Muno has a tendency of doing such things, and also note how he never provides any links, i think he fabricates most of these fictional stories and will most likely tell them to his children and grandchildren later on









----------------------------------------


Greek Shark trainer, Training Killer Sharks to interecpt Trespassing turks in the Aegean




----------------------------------------

Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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SimosGR
(Login SimosGR)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:05 PM 

"Ma h ellada os gnoston...pote tis den pethainei..kai ops sosta enas megas profitis exei pei .....KAPOIA STIGMH UA ANASTHUEI!!"

one of the phrases every real greek must remember


turks cant and will never be able to get western-thrace and go post your idiotic propaganda sh-i.t at turkish ultra nationalist forums

 
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Anonymous
(Login bozotheclown007)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:20 PM 

Dude the second shark in your sig is a basking shark!

They feed on plankton man...!



Change it to a great white or something!

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:30 PM 

Bozo Bro

it's meant to be humoristic

Note how the Trainer is a black dude as well

Some Turk Forumer suggested that Greeks train sharks to patrol the Aegean so i capitalised on it


so what does this baskin shark do anyway? he looks pretty scary



----------------------------------------


Greek Shark trainer, Training Killer Sharks to interecpt Trespassing turks in the Aegean




----------------------------------------

Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Anonymous
(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:30 PM 

my opinion :even the greeks have made atrocities to the turks but it is real that both turkish and greek schools write the history for their own good...my teacher wen i was in high school said me enough to believe that the greek made a lot of atrocities to the turks.lets be real the turkey is damned to pretect her history and her soil cause she includes a lots of nations in her soil like greeks ,armenians, kurds.the only thing that connects this people is islam.thats why she tries to eliminate or eliminated the past years the greeks , kurks ,armenians ...just thing what is going to be in greece if the minority (muslams)in trace make a insurrection for their own nation...just remember when albania won greece in football match last year what the greeks made to the albanias...we burned their cars ,we re patrolling with crowbars on our hands ...what ever..balkans is a difficult area....

 
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(Login Greekbono)
Moderators

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:34 PM 

what the hell are u talking about

the reason why we did what we did against the albos was becasue of what they did against us.

did u see what they did to the bus carrying our players to their stadium?

was it not the albos that wanted to hoist up an albanian flag in athens?

as for the other "stuff" you wrote, no one in war is an angel, but there are degrees and frequency which can be looked at.



WHAT'S NEXT







 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:34 PM 

Bozo

Basking Shark
"This huge, bulky, filter-feeder is grayish brown to black to bluish on the upper surface and off-white or darker on its belly. It has a huge mouth which it uses to collect tiny food that floats in the water. A sluggish swimmer with huge gills and dark, bristle-like gill rakers, it filters its food from the water. The snout is short and conical."


this can be the scooper shark, after the white shark passes first, whatever is left behind, this basking guy shark scoopes it up, leaving our Aegean Clean of unwanted filth particles " you know what i mean" eheheh






----------------------------------------


Greek Shark trainer, Training Killer Sharks to interecpt Trespassing turks in the Aegean




----------------------------------------

Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:40 PM 

what the hell are u talking about

the reason why we did what we did against the albos was becasue of what they did against us.

did u see what they did to the bus carrying our players to their stadium?

was it not the albos that wanted to hoist up an albanian flag in athens?

as for the other "stuff" you wrote, no one in war is an angel, but there are degrees and frequency which can be looked at.



WHAT'S NEXT

my friend im not saying that we are wrong for what we have made to the albs.they deserve that...about the war a agree with phrase "no one in war is an angel"....

 
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(Login Greekbono)
Moderators

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:44 PM 

albos got what they deserve. they can celebrate or do whatever the **** they want, but to hoist up a flag in athens is ridiculous.

my golden dawn brothers did well.

WHAT'S NEXT







 
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(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:47 PM 

albos got what they deserve. they can celebrate or do whatever the **** they want, but to hoist up a flag in athens is ridiculous.

my golden dawn brothers did well.

WHAT'S NEXT

i absolutely agree.×ÑÕÓÇ ÁÕÃÇ Ç ÌÏÍÇ ÐÏÕ ÊÑÁÔÁ ÔÁ ÓÊÇÐÔÑÁ ÔÉÓ ÉÓÔÏÑÉÁÓ ÊÁÉ ÐÁÑÁÄÏÓÇÓ ÁÕÔÇÓ ÔÇÓ ×ÙÑÁÓ ÅËËÁÓ..

PS:sorry for my greeks its not bad words neretheless....
ps2:id like to ask how can i erase my photos in my temporary files and replace new ones.the only thing i can see is the expired date of my photos plsss... answer

 
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Anonymous
(Login bozotheclown007)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 3:51 PM 

ton-pernis...

yeah thats sounds good. We use the basking sharks to clean up all the filth particles from the aegean area...

Nice... I like it.

 
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(Login CretanArrow)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 26 2006, 4:52 PM 

Even if all these stories posted by the turkish forumers are true, I feel no remorse. Life is a cycle and you reap what you sow. Nobody invited you to OUR LANDS. You invaded Asia Minor, we (Byzantium) didn't take something which belonged to you. It was your ancestors who drew first blood against us, not the other way around.

You massacred the populaton of Constantinople ("The streets ran red with blood for three days"). For 400 years you barbarians enslaved, killed, prosecuted, tortured, hanged, beheaded, skinned, burnt, took away our children, and decimated our population.

Did you expect forgiveness? Did you expect humility? What did you expect? You will tremble in fear when the day will come when a strong leader will once again rise to LEAD the Hellenes to greatness, just as in the past; You will not be able to stop us, no matter how many you are. History is cyclical and we will one day rise from the ashes and the Lion that was Hellas will be reborn. Hellenes are a special race of people who have the ability to do great things and defy the odds instilled within them.


Last speech of Emperor Constantine Palaiologos to the fighters of Constantinople - May 28th, 1453

"Gentlemen, illustrious captains of the army, and our most Christian comrades in arms: we now see the hour of battle approaching. I have therefore elected to assemble you here to make it clear that you must stand together with firmer resolution than ever. You have always fought with glory against the enemies of Christ. Now the defense of your fatherland and of the city known the world over, which the infidel and evil Turks have been besieging for two and fifty days, is committed to your lofty spirits. Be not afraid because its walls have been worn down by the enemy's battering. For your strength lies in the protection of God and you must show it with your arms quivering and your swords brandished against the enemy. I know that this undisciplined mob will, as is their custom, rush upon you with loud cries and ceaseless volleys of arrows. These will do you no bodily harm, for I see that you are well covered in armor. They will strike the walls, our breastplates, our shields. So do not imitate the Romans who, when the Carthaginians went into battle against them, allowed their cavalry to be terrified by the fearsome sight and sound of elephants. In this battle you must stand firm and have no fear, no thought of flight, but be inspired to resist with ever more Herculean strength. Animals may run away from animals. But you are men, men of stout heart, and you will hold at bay these dumb brutes, thrusting your spears and swords into them, so that they will know that they are fighting not against their own kind but against the masters of animals.

You are aware that the impious and infidel enemy has disturbed the peace unjustly. He has violated the oath and treaty that he made with us; he has slaughtered our farmers at harvest time; he has erected a fortress on the Propontis as it were to devour the Christians; he has encircled Galata under a pretense of peace. Now he threatens to capture the city of Constantine the Great, your fatherland, the place of ready refuge for all Christians, the guardian of all Greeks, and to profane its holy shrines of God by turning them into stables for his horses. Oh my lords, my brothers, my sons, the everlasting honor of Christians is in your hands. You men of Genoa, men of courage and famous for your infinite victories, you who have always protected this city, your mother, in many a conflict with the Turks, show now your prowess and your aggressive spirit toward them with manly vigor. You men of Venice, most valiant heroes, whose swords have many a time made Turkish blood to flow and who in our time have sent so many ships, so many infidel souls to the depths under the command of Loredano, the most excellent captain of our fleet, you who have adorned this city, as if it were your own with fine, outstanding men, lift high your spirits now for battle. You my comrades in arms, obey the commands of your leaders in the knowledge that this is the day of your glory- a day on which, if you shed but a drop of blood, you will win for ourselves crowns of martyrdom and eternal fame."



 
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Anonymous
(Login Megali_idea)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 1:33 AM 

They massacred over 1.5 Million civilists armenians and they speak about massacring?!
Clean your own mess first by accepting this fact and maybe then you can sound more credible!Cretines!




"Pas tourkos, barbaros"

"pali me xronia me kairous, pali dika mas tha ´nai"
- With ages and with time, it will be ours again -

"The last greek visionary died 70 years ago..."
- Elefterios Venizelos ,1864-1936 -

 
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Grk Master
(Login GrkWebMaster)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 3:35 AM 

The Joke is turks took no POW they slaughterd Greeks and we slaughterd Turks so please no victim stories.


See my Site Greek Military Photos
http://www.greekmilitary.net
Visit http://turkishdenial.com/

 
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ellhn
(Login ellhn)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 12:54 PM 

the bs is obvious:
few starving greek guerilas achieve to gain their freedom
How easy to characterize them as killers, terrorists
and then you say for the mighty Otto empire
mighty Otto my aaaassssssssssshhhhhh
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i like those pictures
it reminds our glorious helenistic and vyzantine history
nevertheless we are not able to keep these lands even they were simply transfered to us




"TURKS

http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/Turks.htm
The Turkish website said proudly that their ancestors comprised of Huns and the White Huns, and the Uygur nationalists had further provided two lineages of eastern and western Hunnic kings to support their claim of Hunnic heritage, in direct competition with the Mongols who celebrated the 2000th anniversary of first Hunnic empire in 1991. The Turks are a group of group no secondary to the Huns, and their influence would be felt in Ottoman Empire's conquest of the Byzantium and the Balkans as well as waves of raids into the Indus Valley. Their history had been full of extraordinary events like slaves turning into rulers. Their linguistic flavor found entries in Finno-Ugric language. They pushed Islam to its apex. It is too broad a topic for me to cover them all in here.

In this section, I will concentrate on the Turkic origin and influence in China and Mongolia during their early developments. Turks had impacted the Chinese more than the Huns.(
There had been reports that Chinese visitors and delegations were very well received by the Turkish people in today's Turkey. The Turkish people treated the contemporary Chinese like brothers. In this perspective, the Turkish people identified more with the Chinese than the Chinese did to the Turkish people of Turkey. The reason the Turkish people in Turkey feel affiliated with the Chinese is that their ancestors had originally lived in northern China and today's Mongolia.

In China, Turkic influences could be said to be more profound than the Huns. By Sui Dynasty (AD 581-618), a Turkic man, Yang Su, would be the prime minister. )
During the Tang Dynasty, Pogu Huai'eng, an Uygur, had obtained a post as a general in the court. After the fall of Tang Dynasty (AD 619-907), three dynasties among the Five Dynasties of northern China, i.e., Posterior Tang 923-936, Posterior Jin 936-946, Posterior Han 947-950, were ruled by the Shatuo (Sha'to) Turks. (Sha'to Turks were a group of Western Turks who were first employed by the Tibetans as their herald armies, but they later defected to the Tang Chinese and were assigned the border posts in northern China to guard against other nomads and Khitans.) One more interesting thing would be the fact that the Uygur Turks had a long history of co-living with the Chinese. There is on record a big Uygur community around Yuan-shui River in today's Hunan Province, Central China. The famous writer, Jian Bozan, who committed suicide during the Cultural Revolution, happened to be an ethnic Uygur from Hunan Province.

Who are those people called Turks then? They did not disappear as the Huns did. Today's Turkish people in Turkey are direct descendants of Osmanli Turks who belonged to the Oghuz confederations which have the origin in today's Mongolia. We had traced the original Huns to a group of people driven out of Hetao area, south of the Yellow River, by Qin (BC 221-206) emperor Shi Huangdi (Shihuangdi). Chinese history books invariably claimed that the Gaoche people, the Tiele Tribe (ancestors of Uygurs), Ruruans (Rou Ran or Ru Ru), and Turks were alternative races of the Huns. We would sort out their relationship below. There is one common feature among those ancient tribes, namely, they loved the nomadic way of life, they never settled down, and they preyed upon Chinese Turkistan and Northern China as an outsider force. In contrast, tribal states of Chinese Turkistan, i.e., Loulan (Rongjiang), Cheshi (Gaochang), Qiuci (Guqa or Kuqa), Yanqi, Yutian (Hotan or Khoten), Shule (Kashi), are recorded to have city-walls and cultivation.

Unlike the Huns, the Chinese of Former Han Dynasty did initiate quite some colonization efforts in Chinese Turkistan. The Uygur claim, at http://www.uygur.org/enorg/history/uygurlar_kim.htm, was not that correct in one of the assertions, namely, the Chinese never colonized Xinjiang or Chinese Turkistan. The Chinese, like the Huns and Turks, had been outside contenders. The Huns, after driving out the Yuezhi, did station some official in Chinese Turkistan. The Huns, according to Ban Gu, devised an official entitled 'Tongpu Duwei', similar to governor, and sent this person to the post in charge of ancient tribal states of Yanqi, Weixu and Weili, located to the southwest of today's Urumqi. Hunnic 'Rizhuowang' (king of sun chasing) was usually stationed in the 'west court', a place to the north of Altai, while Hunnic 'central court' was always in today's Outer Mongolia. In 121 BC, Han Emperor Wudi ordered a campaign against the Huns, with Huo Qubing and Gongsun Ao departing from northern border, while Li Guang and Zhang Qian from the Beijing area in the east. Huo attacked the Huns in and around Qilian Mountains, the ice and glacier of which fed the farming of the so-called Hexi Corridor (i.e., corridor to the west of the West Yellow River Bend). Hunnic King Hunye, for fear of punishment by Hunnic Chanyu, killed King Xiutu and surrendered his 40,000 people to Huo Qubing. Wudi relocated the Huns to five prefectures, Longxi (today's Weisui and Tiaohe Rivers, Gansu Prov), Beidi (today's northeastern Gansu Prov), Shangjun (today's northeastern Shenxi Prov), Shuofang (somewhere on north bank of the Northern Yellow River Bend), and Yunzhong (today's Tuoketuo County, Inner Mongolia). Wudi further set up Wuwei and Qiuquan Commandaries in the old territories of King Hunye. In 102 BC, Zhangye and Dunhuang Commandaries were set up along the corridor. Civilians were relocated to guard the posts along with the army. After General Li Guangli campaigned against the ancient state of Dawan (Fergana) in Central Asia, more posts were set up on the Silk Road. From Dunhuang to the Qinhaihu Lake, hundreds of 'farming soldiers' were stationed. By the time of Emperor Xuandi (reign 73-48 BC), south of Tianshan Mountains was firmly under Han Chinese control. Hunnic 'Rizhuowang' (king of sun chasing) offended Hunnic Chanyu, and he defected to Han China, yielding to Chinese the Hunnic control of the northern part of Chinese Turkistan. By 62 BC, north of Tianshan Mountains was controlled by Chinese as well. Colonization went as far as the ancient state of Sha'che. This post was responsible for reporting on the situations in such states as Kangju (Kang-chu) and Wu'sun (Ili). During the reign of Emperor Yuandi, 48-32 BC, another group of Huns surrendered to Chinese, and colonization reached Che'shi.

The Uygurs and the Mongols, however, could be both right or both wrong in their assertion in regards to the Hunnic ancestry. The Uygur claim could be built on basis of their ancestor Huihe's membership in the Tiele Tribes, a group of people sanwiched between the Huns/Turks and the original dwellers of Xinjiang or Chinese Turkistan. (Uygurs claimed they descended from 'Chunwei', the son of Jie, last Xia Dynasty lord.) The Mongolian claim could be built on basis of the nomadic tribal groups which never left the Mongolian plateau. Western history books tried in vain to make a distinction, and they said that the Genghis Mongols were descendants of the Ruruans. The Ruruans, however, were more Hunnic than Mongol as we would explore in this section and had explored in the section on the Huns. The 'Mongol' claim for Ruruans could be built on basis of one comment in History Of Toba Wei Dynasty, namely, the founder of Ruruan people might have origin in Eastern Hu nomads, a group more associated with the Tungusic people of Manchuria and eastern Mongolia. My research into various records, however, shows that the Ruruans were more Hunnic than anything else after relocating to the west. After the Ruruan founder fled to the Altai Mountains, he conquered and absorbed remnant Hunnic and Gaoche tribes there. To provide as detailed descriptions as possible, I had traced the Huns and Turks according to the specific naming as recorded in history, rather than generic naming. I traced the ending of the Eastern Huns to their relocation to Hebei Province by the Tuoba in AD 523 and that of the western Huns to Attila and his warfare in Europe in AD 433-453. The third group of Huns, Ruruan, and their relationship with Nie-ban (Nirvana) Huns, would be touched upon below and in Huns section. (blue turk ? I doubt this terminology ever existed in Chinese chronicles. blue means 'east')

The Turks did not come about till they, employed as a group of iron miners in the Altai Mountains, rebelled against the Ruruans in AD 546-553. We need to make a distinction here between the words of 'Turk', 'Turkic' and 'Turkish'. The word 'Turk' would denote the group of people as recorded in the middle 6th century. The word 'Turkic' means more a language that was spoken by the Euroasian nomads, and the earlier Huns were said to be Turkic as well. The word 'Turkish', however, would denote specifically the people and the language in today's Turkey, i.e., Anatolia. Western history books classify the Ruruans as 'Mongolian', but the term 'Mongolian' was a much later concept. The term 'Mongolian' did not appear till Khubilai endorced it in the 14th century, supposedly on basis of the word 'Mengwu Shiwei'. Conventional history would make such a distinction between the Turkic and Mongolian ethnicity. Here, I will refer to the Ruruans as 'Hunnic' versus their Turkic adversaries for clarification's sake. The Ruruans are said to be the successors to the Huns, and this group of people had also been responsible for pressuring the so-called 'Huns' into migrations towards Europe as well as cracking down on the eastern Huns in collaboration with the Tuoba. The Ruruans, as we detailed in the Hun section, were more Hunnic than those they chased away towards Europe. The two groups, Ruruans and Turks, were hostile towards each other. Numerous records point to the Turks' chasing the Ruruan khan to the Western Wei Dynasty (AD 535-557) as well as chased other Ruruan royal family members to the Hephthalite Empire of the White Huns (Ye-tai). Ruruans had inter-marriage with both Western Wei and the Ye-tai. In AD 553-68, the Turks and Sassanians in today's Iran allied in destroying the Hephthalite Empire of White Huns [Ye-tai]. "



Turkish language Tree


Turkic Language Turkic language tree

Unlike other earlier nomads who left no records of written language, the Turks possessed the so-called Orkhon inscriptions (a Kok Turk invention related to Eastern Khate around AD 682) in a runic-like script, and this script was deciphered back in 1896. There was some element of Chinese language among the early Orkhon scripts, though. Note Han Dynasty Chinese had no problem communicating with the Huns who were speculated to be Turkic-speaking as well. The forms of the lost languages of the Khitans, Tanguts and Jurchens, like the Korean writing, had all appeared to be some kind of revision on top of Chinese pictographs. Among the Turks, the Uygurs were great language masters, and adopted their own script which became known as the Uygur script. They helped Chingiz Khan's Mongols in devising the written Mongol language in early 13th century. The Uygur script indirectly influened the Manchus when the latter adopted the Mongolian script in 1599. (The Manchus first used Khitan's Siniform script and finally adopted Chinese logographic characters.) Turkic language is one of the three language branches in the Altaic language family, namley, Turkic, Mongolian and Tunguzic. My suspicion is that the branches did not distinguish themselves till much later, and the three language branch designations were the products of linguists of 20th century any way. When you look at the photos of ruins of Karakorum, near the Orkhon River, southwest of Ulaanbaatar as well as few slates of tomb stones on the desolate Gobi, the impression will be all yours to imagine who the successive dwellers had been on that land. The control of the area of Mongolia had passed from the Turks to the Uygurs, then to the Kyrgyz. (The Kyrgyz were said to be the last Turkic people to have resided in Mongolia, but in the section on Mongols, we had listed quite a few groups of peoples who appeared to be more Turkic than the later Mongols.)

A simple comparison of some words in later Mongolian language yields the following interesting points: The word for the Mongolinas, Mongqol irgen, is the same word 'irgen' as used in ancient Chinese pronunciation which could be corrobated by the Cantonese pronunciation of 'irgen' and Japanese pronuncitation of 'nin' or 'dgen'. Still more interesting is the fact that Genghis Khan's name, Timuchin, shared the same prefix as some of his brothers and sister, with Ti meaning nothing more than a Chinese word 'Tie' for iron or smith. JOHANN WILHELM ADOLF KIRCHHOFF (1826-1908) mentioned two Kara-Kirghiz groups, i.e., "the On or "Right" in the east, with seven branches (Bogu, Sary-Bagishch, Son-Bagishch, Sultu or Solye, Cherik, Sayak, Bassinz), and the Sol or "Left" in the west, with four branches (Kokche or Kfichy, Soru, Mundus, Kitai or Kintai)". As stated at http://57.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KI/KIRGHIZ.htm, the "Sol section occupies the region between the Talass and Oxus headstreams in Ferghana (Khokand) and Bokhara, ... The On section lies on both sides of the Tian-shan, about Lake Issyk-kul, and in the Chu, Tekes and Narin (upper Jaxartes) valleys." Once again, ancient Chinese words, like right for 'you' (mutated into 'on') and left for 'zuo' (mutated into 'sol'), were adopted by nomadic tribes on the steppe. Note that the Huns used to designate their officials into rightside and leftside virtuous kings, similar to Qin Principality's adoption of rightside and leftside prime ministers. Isenbike Togan of Middle East Technical University stated that "written Chinese is also a system of signs... Central Asian people who were not Chinese used this system at some time in the past, including the Turks." Isenbike Togan concluded that the Turkish word for 'freezing' came from Chinese word 'dong[4]'. Reader jianx mentioned that "...many words have similar sound and meaning as chinese -- the madarin... A few examples: Chinese: Bo2: father's brother --> turkish: Bey: same meaning( more general); Wa(1)Di(4): low land --> Vadi: valley; Shui(3): water --> Sui: water; Jie(2): sister --> ajia: female relative, sister. ...Turkish people have chinese last names. For example, Turkish 'Tan' is obviously a chinese last name. In turkish, it means 'sunrise', which is nearly identical to 'Dan(4)' in chinese --- the Zhou Dynasty's famous Zhou(1)Gong(1) Dan(4) --- you should know it means that the sun is rising over the horizon."

As to Turkic language, there had existed a much earlier version of language than the Orkhon script. There is on record a poem written by the wife of a Chinese officer under the Di[1] people's Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394), and it was said that this love poem was sent to her husband who was exiled to the border post in China's silk road. The points to make here is that it was written in so-called 'Hui' language, namely, a terminology that was to be used for denoting Turkic language later. Hui means something self-looping or percolating, in a similar fashion to the Iranian languages. (Today's Chinese designated Muslims as 'Hui Ren' and Islam as 'Hui Jiao'.) The poem, woven on silk clothing, could be read from right to left and from left to right. Both the earlier 'Hui Wen' and later Orkhon script must have been impacted by more than Chinese. Iranian languages had been found in the same area. Excavated in areas rear Turfan would be manuscripts in Bactrian, the ancient language of Bactria in northern Afghanistan. Kushan ruler Kanishka, who was of Yuezhi origin, adopted Bactrian as the language of his coinage. After the collapse of the Kushan empire, Bactrian language continued in use till the ninth-century, as evidenced by inscriptions from the Tochi valley in Pakistan and the remnants of Buddhist and Manichean manuscripts found in the Turfan oasis. (It goes without saying that neither the reign of Kanishka nor that of the Kushan dynasty approached 1000 years. In about 2Z4 A.D. the Sasanians came to power in Iran. Within a few years the Sasanians had also conquered Bactria, which they ruled during part of the following period through a viceroy known as the Kushan-shah 'king of the Kushans", who was often a prince of the Sasanian royal family. Subsequently Bactria was invaded several times by nomads from the north. At different times the invaders are referred to under various names --- Chionites, Kidarite Huns, Hephthalites --- though it is not entirely clear whether all these names refer to the same or to different peoples. The next arrivals were the Turks, who in the middle of the sixth century allied themselves with the Sasanians to defeat the Hephthalites; and then finally all the local dynasties were swept aside by the coming of Islam and the Arabs.)




Origin Of Turks & The Uygur Turks

Nationalist Uygurs, at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1730/buh.html, stated that "after 210 B.C., the Uygurs played important roles in the Hun (220 B.C. - 386 A.D.), Tabgach (To'pa) (386-554 A.D.), and Kok Turk (552-744 A.D.) empires which were established in Central Asia". This statement would be erroneous in its lumping together different groups of peoples.

The Turks, specifically called Tujüe or Tujue (Turks) at the time of North Dynasties (AD 386-581) and Sui/Tang Dynasties, asserted themselves in late time period of Toba Northern Wei Dynasty (A.D. 386-533). Toba Wei split into Eastern and Western Wei Dynasties in AD 534. The Turks rebelled against the Ruruans in AD 546-553. However, there were earlier references to Turkic tents in the 4th and 5th centuries, respectively. Below, I will cite a few records in Chinese history. Among the following sayings, personally, I am more inclined to believe that the ancestors of Turks might be related to the 500 families who fled to the Altai Mountains after Toba Wei Emperor Daowudi (Toba Gui, reign 386-409) defeated the Hunnic Statelet of Juqu in today's Gansu Province.

In China, 16 Nations (AD 304-420) were comprised of various nomadic groups of people: Huns, Jiehu, Xianbei (including Wuhuan & Toba), Qiang, & Di. Ultimately, the Toba (Tuoba), who were of Xianbei heritage, took over northern China. Leftover Huns were absorbed by Ruruan, and Ruruan were defeated and exterminated by Turks. Toba would deal with the onslaughts by the Ruruans first and then the Turks. Toba got sinicized in northern China. Ultimately, Toba Wei Dynasty would be usurped by two generals of Xianbei heritage. Northern Qi and Northern Zhou replaced the two Toba dynasties. Sui China would be built on Northern Zhou Dynasty of Yuwen clan.

The origin of the Turk was interesting as well as the name of it. Tang Dynasty writer, Li Yanshou, in his book History Of The Northern Dynasties, wrote that the Turks were alternative Huns whose ancestors had originally dwelled to the right side of the Xihai (West Sea), i.e., Qinghaihu Lake of Qinghai Prov. According to Chinese records, the ancestor of the Turks came from a boy whose arms were cut off and whose ankles were also deliberately disabled by the tribal feuds. This boy was from the background of mixed Hu nomads in today's Gansu-Qinhai areas. History Of The Northern Dynasties said that the Turkic clan to which the boy belonged dwelled to the west side of Xi Hai. (Xi Hai was also the name for the Mediterranean). A wolf would be responsibile for saving the life of the boy. When the enemies found out about the boy, they killed the boy. However, the pregnant wolf fled to the mountains near ancient Gaochang Statelet (Turpan) and she gave birth to 10 children who ultimately became the ancestors of later Turks, i.e., Ten Turkic Family Names. The ten Turks used their wives' family name as their respective clan name. Ashina was one of the ten names.

Li Yanshou also recorded another theory, namely, the ancestors of the Turks were the mixed Ashina Hu nomads in Pingzhou and Liangzhou areas. About 500 households of them fled to the Ruruan for protection, dwelled to the south of the Altai Mountains, and became the iron slaves of the Ruruans, at the time when Toba Wei Emperor Daowudi (reign 386-409) defeated the Hunnic Statelet of Juqu's Northern Liang in today's Gansu Province. The name of "turk" was in fact something denoting some cloth cover on the head, said to be of the same shape as the Altai mountains in today's Western China. Li Yanshou also said that the Turks could have their origin from a statelet called Suoguo which was to the north of the Huns. The Hunnic tribal chieftan, i.e., A'pangbu, possessed 70 brothers, with one of them born with a wolf. Brother Nishidu would revive the tribe after it was conquered by neighbors. Nishidu had four sons, with one son leading the Qigu statelet, and the elder son living on Mount Ba-si-chu-zhe-shi-shan. This elder son was made into the chieftan, and he bore ten sons, with the youngest named Ashina. Ashina was later selected as the chieftan because he could jump the highest against the tree. Ashina had one of his descendant by the name of Tumen (Bumin). In AD 545, a Western Toba Wei emissary visited Tumen. Tumen was delighted at the visit by grandiose Chinese emissary and thought this visit might for sure bring along luck to him. Tumin sent in tributes to Toba Wei Dynasty the second year.

From the standpoint of one Chinese historian writer (Cai Dongfan), the Turks are a so-called "bie zhong" of the Huns, namely, "alternative race" or "different race" if translated literally. The Turks became a strong power after they, under Tumen, defeated the 'Tiele Tribe' and absorbed about 50,000 households in AD 546. Juqu's Northern Liang connection is the most credible explanation, in my opinion.

TURKS

Early Turkic History

Turks, thinking that they helped in rearing the Tiele Tribes on behalf of the Ruruans, proposed a marriage with the princess of the Ruruans. Ruruans declined their request. Hence, Turks sought for marriage with Toba's Western Wei Dynasty. In the 17th year of Western Wei's Datong era, i.e., AD 551, Turkic Khan Tumen (Bumin) obtained Toba Princess Changle as a bride. When Western Wei Emperor Wendi died, Tumen sent in 200 horses as condolences. In the first year of Western Wei Emperor Feidi, Tumen defeated the Ruruans, causing Ruruan Khan commit suicide and Ruruan Khan's son flee to Northern Qi Dynasty. Tumen declared himself Khan Yili and gave his wife the title of Ke-hedun or Kedun (similar to Hunnic title of Yanzhi for queen). Tumen's son, named Keluo, was Khan Yixiji. Khan Yixiji would defeat Ruruan Khan's brother (Dengshuzi). Yixiji's brother, Sijin (Sinjibu?), aka Yandu, would succeed Khan Yixiji as Khan Muchu. Sijin was recorded to be red-faced and possess liuli [brown] eyes, and he would defeat Dengshuzi at Mount Beilaishan and drive Dengshuzi into Northern Zhou territories for asylum. (Dengshuzi and his 3000 followers would later be handed over to the Turks for execution by Northern Zhou.)

Sijin would now defeat the Ye-tai in the west, the Khitans in the east, and Qigu in the north. Hence, the Turks controlled the vast territories extending from Chinese Turkistan to Manchuria. Turks were recorded to have about 28 levels of officials, including Yehu, She(4), Teqin, Silifa, Tudunfa etc. They had the same custom as the Scandinavian pirates in that they would burn the dead body of their chieftan together with the belongings like horses and clothes. Tents were always opened towards the east where the sun rose.

In the third year of Northern Zhou Emperor Wendi (?), the Turks defeated the Tuyuhun in today's Qinghai-Gansu area. Sijin had once wavered, in face of gifts from two Chinese states, several times, in marrying over his daughter to either Northern Qi or Northern Zhou, and he finally settled down on intermarriage with Northern Zhou. In AD 561, i.e., the first year of Baoding Era (Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi), the Turks under Sijin (Khan Muchu), with 100,000 strong army, joined Northern Zhou's Duke Sui (Yang Zhong) in attacking Northern Qi. Turks reached ancient Bingzhou Prefecture (northern Shanxi Prov). Turks requested for a second attack on Northern Qi. Sijin yielded his post to his brother at death bed. Sijin's brother, i.e., Tabo [Tuobo] Khan, would make Shetu as Khan E'fu in charge of the east and a brother (Khan Rudan) as Khan Buli in charge of the west. Tabo Khan would play Northern Zhou and Northern Qi for tributes and treated the two Chinese statelet rulers as stepsons. A Northern Qi monk called Huilin would convert Tabo to Buddhism. After Northern Zhou destroyed Northern Qi, Tabo Khan would welcome a Northern Qi prince called Gao Baoyi (King of Fanyang) and make him the nominal new emperor of Northern Qi. In AD 578, the first year of Xuanzheng Era of Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi, Tabo attacked Beijing and killed a Northern Zhou general called Liu Xiong. Khan Tabo raided Jiuquan of Gansu Prov thereafter; meantime, Yutian [Khotan], Persia and Ye-tai rebelled against the Turks in the west. Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi would promise to send Princess Qianjin to Tabo Khan for reconciliation. Khan Tabo raided Bingzhou and stopped raiding when Princess Qianjin was delivered. Tabo would expell Gao Baoyi to Northern Zhou years later after reaching a deal with Northern Zhou. At the death of Tabo Khan, Tabo Khan asked his son to yield the throne back to his second brother's son. The elder brother's son, Shabolüe, refused to acknowledge the new khan. Hence, Turks would possess four different khans.

After Sui Dynasty replaced Northern Zhou in AD 581, Shabolüe's wife, i.e., Princess Qianjin, would pursuade Turks into avenging on the Sui Dynasty. Defeated by Sui, Shabolüe Khan would blame Khan Ah'bo and henced attacked and killed the mother of Ah'bo. Ah'bo fled to the west for asylum with Datou (Tardu) Khan. The Turkic Khans attacked each other. Hence, Sui sent an official called Yu Qingzhe and pursuaded Shabolüe into seeking vasslage with Sui. Shabolue gave his sister to Yu Qingzhe as an appreciation of the peace efforts. When attacked by Turks from the west and the Khitans from the east, Shabolüe Khan was allowed to relocate to the south of the desert and Sui Dynasty acknowledged him as a minister instead of a vassal. Sui Emperor Wendi conferred the family name of Yang on Princess Qianjin and renamed her to Princess Dayi. After the death of Khan Shabolüe, Sui Emperor Wendi mourned for three days. Khan Shabolüe's brother, Shetu (Khan E'fu), was in charge of the east. Shetu asked his son to see another Shabolüe brother called Chuluo-hou and made Chuluo-hou the new khan. Chuluo-hou attacked Turks in the west by demonstrating the flags conferred by by Sui and he captured Khan Ah'bo. After Chuluo-hou died of an arrow wound, Shetu's son, Yongyulu, was made into Khan Duolan. When Sui Emperor sent over the screens of deposed Southern Chinese Dynasty of Chen to Prince Dayi, Prince Dayi thought about revenge again and she contacted a Western Turkic Khan for assistance. Shaobolue's son, Tuli Khan, was in charge of the north. Sui Dynasty asked Tuli Khan to advise Khan Duolan in killing Princess Dayi before Tuli Khan could marry Princess Anyi of Sui Dynasty. Sui Emperor played a trick in bestowing a lot of gifts on Tuli Khan, hence angering the Arch Turkic Khan Duolan into a rivalry against Tuli Khan. Khan Duolan once killed all brothers and children of Khan Tuli. After the death of Princess Anyi, Tuli Khan (Rangan) would marry with Princess Yicheng of Sui Dynasty. Tuli Khan would be entitled Qiren Khan (Qimin Khan) and was allowed to stay south of the Yellow River, at Xia-zhou and Shen-zhou prefectures. Similar to Han Emperor Wudi, Sui Emperor Wendi dispatched multiple columns of armies against the rivalry Turks, several times, deep into northwestern territories. Khan Duolan was killed by his own people. Datou would proclaim himself Khan Bujia and fought wars with both Sui and Khan Tuli. In the first year of Rensou Era, Yang Su was conferred the post of Grand Marshal of Yunzhou and led Khan Qiren Khan to fight the Turks under Nili Khan. Khan Bujia fled to Tuyuhun. Khan Qiren took over the people of both Nili Khan and Bujia Khan. While Sui Dynasty was attacking the Turks, the Tiele Tribes joined in and defeated the Turks in the northwest. Sui armies, joined by Qimin Khan, would quell the rivalry Turks. In AD 607, the third year of Daye Era of Sui Emperor Yangdi, Qimin Khan and Princess Yicheng came to pay respect to Emperor Yangdi and offered 3000 horses when Yangdi arrived at Yulin, Shenxi, in the Hetao area. When Khan Qiren died, Sui Emperor mourned for three days. Khan Qiren's son, Tujieli, would succeed as Khan Shibi. During the 11th year of Sui Emperor's reign, Khan Shibi came to Sui capital. Later, Khan Shibi attacked Sui emperor at Yanmenguan Pass. Duke of Tang, Li Yuan, defeated the Shibi Turks at Mayi. When Sui was in upheaval, Shibi Khan welcomed Sui Emepress Xiaohou. Chinese fled to Turks in hordes for avoiding civil wars, and Turks became powerful while Tang China was weak after emerging from the civil wars after the demise of Sui Dynasty.

In the west, the Turks was led by the son of Muchu Khan. When conflicting with Khan Shabolue, Western Turks set up two courts, one in ancient Shi-guo Statelet and the other in ancient Qiuci (Chouci) Statelet. Chouci, Tiele and Yiwu etc were all subject to Western Turks. After Chuluo-hou captured the western Turkic khan, Nili Khan would be enthroned. Nili Khan's son would be Chuluo Khan who resided in the old Wusun territory, i.e., today's Ili. By AD 605, the western Turks were in constant fights with the Tiele Tribes. Sui Dynasty sent a minister called Fei Ju to pursuade Western Turkic Khan Chuluo to seek vassalage with Sui. Khan Chuluo's mother, named Lady Xiang, was a Chinese who was living in Sui capital at the time. Sui tried to have Chuluo Khan attack Tuyuhun using the pretext that Chuluo could safely come to Sui capital to see his mother should Tuyuhun be cleared in the midway. Since Khan Chuluo refused to pay respect to Sui Emperor Yangdi in person, Yangdi would adopt Fei Ju's advice in supporting the grandson of Tardu (Datou) to have Chuluo replaced. Chuluo Khan fled to Gaochang Statelet and he later was pursuaded into surrender by his mother, Lady Xiang. Chuluo Khan later followed Yangdi in the Korean Expedition and was entitled Hesana Khan. Princess Xingyi was married to Khan Chuluo. When Sui Emperor Yangdi was killed by palace corp in Yangzhou, Chuluo Khan fled back to the Sui capital, but he was killed by Turks from the north.

When Tang Dynasty's founder, Li Yuan, rebelled against Sui Dynasty, he would sent his minister (Liu Wenjing) to the Eastern Turks (ruled by Khan Shibi) for borrowing 2000 horses and 500 cavalry. At this time, Khan Shibi subjugated Tuyuhun in Gansu-Qinghai, Gaochang near Turpan, Khitans and Shiwei in northwestern Manchuria and eastern Mongolia. Khan Shibi intervened in China's civil wars and assisted Li Yuan's rivals, such as Liu Wuzhou & Liang Shidu. After the death of Khan Shibi, his brother, Chuluo Khan (same name as Chuluo Khan during Sui Dynasty time period), would be enthroned. Chuluo Khan assisted another Tang rival, Wang Shichong. Later, Chuluo Khan retrieved ex-Sui Empress Xiao and ex-Sui royal family from still another Tang rival called Dou Jiande. Chuluo Khan erected an ex-Sui royal member as the new Sui King. Chuluo Khan was determined to fight Tang on behalf of dethroned Sui Dynasty, saying that he wanted to return favor to Sui for Sui's helping his ancestors in the restoration of the Turkic khanate. Later, Chuluo Khan died and his brother, Khan Xieli, would be enthroned.

Khan Xieli was disuaded from an alliance with another Tang rival called Xue Ju. Khan Xieli would erect his cousin, i.e., Shibi Khan's son, as Khan Tuli (same name as Tuli during Sui Dynasty time period) in the east, and Tuli would take charge of the ancient tribes of Khitans and Mojie (ancestors of Jurchens) people. Khan Xieli would take over Princess Yicheng as his wife. Princess Yicheng's brother (Yang Sanjing) and Wang Shichong's emissary would somehow pursuade Khan Xieli into challenging Tang Dynasty on behalf of dethroned Sui. In AD 621, Khan Xieli invaded Yanmenguan Pass and Dai Prefecture. For several years, Tang and Turks fought numerous battles across the northern border areas. By the 7th year of Tang Emperor Gaozu, in AD 626, Li Shimin or Li Shih-min (i.e., King Qin of Tang Dynasty and later Tang Emperor Taizong or Tai-tsung, AD 597-649), would sow a dissension among Xieli Khan and Tuli Khan. Unable to call upon Tuli to fight Tang further, Xieli Khan sent Tuli Khan and Simo to Tang for sake a peace treaty with Tang. Tuli Khan and King Qin promised to be brothers, while Tang Emperor Gaozu said to Simo that he felt he had seen Khan Xieli by meeting with Simo. In the following two years, Tang was busy building ships around the North Bend of the Yellow River for defence against Turks, while Turks broke the peace and kept attacking Tang. In AD 627, Tang Emperor Taizong got enthroned after staging "Xuan Wu Men Coup D'etat" during which he killed two brothers and forced Emperor Gaozu into abdication. This year, Tiele Tribes, including Xueyantuo, Huihe and Bayegu, rebelled against the Turks. Khan Xieli accused Khan Tuli of failing to quell the Tiele rebellion. Being attacked by Khan Xieli, Khan Tuli requested for help with Tang Emperor Taizong in AD 628. The next year, Xueyantuo proclaimed themselves as a khan and sought allianace with Tang. In the fourth year, AD 630, Tang ordered General Li Jing on a full campaign against Khan Xieli and captured Khan Xieli. Further details of Turkic history will be covered in Eastern Khnanate and Western Khnanate.


http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/early_Turkic_history.htm

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Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 1:05 PM 

the bs is obvious:
few starving greek guerilas achieve to gain their freedom
How easy to characterize them as killers, terrorists
and then you say for the mighty Otto empire
mighty Otto my aaaassssssssssshhhhhh
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i like those pictures
it reminds our glorious helenistic and vyzantine history
nevertheless we are not able to keep these lands even they were simply transfered to us




"TURKS

<a href="http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/Turks.htm</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/Turks.htm</a>;
The Turkish website said proudly that their ancestors comprised of Huns and the White Huns, and the Uygur nationalists had further provided two lineages of eastern and western Hunnic kings to support their claim of Hunnic heritage, in direct competition with the Mongols who celebrated the 2000th anniversary of first Hunnic empire in 1991. The Turks are a group of group no secondary to the Huns, and their influence would be felt in Ottoman Empire's conquest of the Byzantium and the Balkans as well as waves of raids into the Indus Valley. Their history had been full of extraordinary events like slaves turning into rulers. Their linguistic flavor found entries in Finno-Ugric language. They pushed Islam to its apex. It is too broad a topic for me to cover them all in here.

In this section, I will concentrate on the Turkic origin and influence in China and Mongolia during their early developments. Turks had impacted the Chinese more than the Huns.(
There had been reports that Chinese visitors and delegations were very well received by the Turkish people in today's Turkey. The Turkish people treated the contemporary Chinese like brothers. In this perspective, the Turkish people identified more with the Chinese than the Chinese did to the Turkish people of Turkey. The reason the Turkish people in Turkey feel affiliated with the Chinese is that their ancestors had originally lived in northern China and today's Mongolia.

In China, Turkic influences could be said to be more profound than the Huns. By Sui Dynasty (AD 581-618), a Turkic man, Yang Su, would be the prime minister. )
During the Tang Dynasty, Pogu Huai'eng, an Uygur, had obtained a post as a general in the court. After the fall of Tang Dynasty (AD 619-907), three dynasties among the Five Dynasties of northern China, i.e., Posterior Tang 923-936, Posterior Jin 936-946, Posterior Han 947-950, were ruled by the Shatuo (Sha'to) Turks. (Sha'to Turks were a group of Western Turks who were first employed by the Tibetans as their herald armies, but they later defected to the Tang Chinese and were assigned the border posts in northern China to guard against other nomads and Khitans.) One more interesting thing would be the fact that the Uygur Turks had a long history of co-living with the Chinese. There is on record a big Uygur community around Yuan-shui River in today's Hunan Province, Central China. The famous writer, Jian Bozan, who committed suicide during the Cultural Revolution, happened to be an ethnic Uygur from Hunan Province.

Who are those people called Turks then? They did not disappear as the Huns did. Today's Turkish people in Turkey are direct descendants of Osmanli Turks who belonged to the Oghuz confederations which have the origin in today's Mongolia. We had traced the original Huns to a group of people driven out of Hetao area, south of the Yellow River, by Qin (BC 221-206) emperor Shi Huangdi (Shihuangdi). Chinese history books invariably claimed that the Gaoche people, the Tiele Tribe (ancestors of Uygurs), Ruruans (Rou Ran or Ru Ru), and Turks were alternative races of the Huns. We would sort out their relationship below. There is one common feature among those ancient tribes, namely, they loved the nomadic way of life, they never settled down, and they preyed upon Chinese Turkistan and Northern China as an outsider force. In contrast, tribal states of Chinese Turkistan, i.e., Loulan (Rongjiang), Cheshi (Gaochang), Qiuci (Guqa or Kuqa), Yanqi, Yutian (Hotan or Khoten), Shule (Kashi), are recorded to have city-walls and cultivation.

Unlike the Huns, the Chinese of Former Han Dynasty did initiate quite some colonization efforts in Chinese Turkistan. The Uygur claim, at <a href="http://www.uygur.org/enorg/history/uygurlar_kim.htm</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.uygur.org/enorg/history/uygurlar_kim.htm</a>;, was not that correct in one of the assertions, namely, the Chinese never colonized Xinjiang or Chinese Turkistan. The Chinese, like the Huns and Turks, had been outside contenders. The Huns, after driving out the Yuezhi, did station some official in Chinese Turkistan. The Huns, according to Ban Gu, devised an official entitled 'Tongpu Duwei', similar to governor, and sent this person to the post in charge of ancient tribal states of Yanqi, Weixu and Weili, located to the southwest of today's Urumqi. Hunnic 'Rizhuowang' (king of sun chasing) was usually stationed in the 'west court', a place to the north of Altai, while Hunnic 'central court' was always in today's Outer Mongolia. In 121 BC, Han Emperor Wudi ordered a campaign against the Huns, with Huo Qubing and Gongsun Ao departing from northern border, while Li Guang and Zhang Qian from the Beijing area in the east. Huo attacked the Huns in and around Qilian Mountains, the ice and glacier of which fed the farming of the so-called Hexi Corridor (i.e., corridor to the west of the West Yellow River Bend). Hunnic King Hunye, for fear of punishment by Hunnic Chanyu, killed King Xiutu and surrendered his 40,000 people to Huo Qubing. Wudi relocated the Huns to five prefectures, Longxi (today's Weisui and Tiaohe Rivers, Gansu Prov), Beidi (today's northeastern Gansu Prov), Shangjun (today's northeastern Shenxi Prov), Shuofang (somewhere on north bank of the Northern Yellow River Bend), and Yunzhong (today's Tuoketuo County, Inner Mongolia). Wudi further set up Wuwei and Qiuquan Commandaries in the old territories of King Hunye. In 102 BC, Zhangye and Dunhuang Commandaries were set up along the corridor. Civilians were relocated to guard the posts along with the army. After General Li Guangli campaigned against the ancient state of Dawan (Fergana) in Central Asia, more posts were set up on the Silk Road. From Dunhuang to the Qinhaihu Lake, hundreds of 'farming soldiers' were stationed. By the time of Emperor Xuandi (reign 73-48 BC), south of Tianshan Mountains was firmly under Han Chinese control. Hunnic 'Rizhuowang' (king of sun chasing) offended Hunnic Chanyu, and he defected to Han China, yielding to Chinese the Hunnic control of the northern part of Chinese Turkistan. By 62 BC, north of Tianshan Mountains was controlled by Chinese as well. Colonization went as far as the ancient state of Sha'che. This post was responsible for reporting on the situations in such states as Kangju (Kang-chu) and Wu'sun (Ili). During the reign of Emperor Yuandi, 48-32 BC, another group of Huns surrendered to Chinese, and colonization reached Che'shi.

The Uygurs and the Mongols, however, could be both right or both wrong in their assertion in regards to the Hunnic ancestry. The Uygur claim could be built on basis of their ancestor Huihe's membership in the Tiele Tribes, a group of people sanwiched between the Huns/Turks and the original dwellers of Xinjiang or Chinese Turkistan. (Uygurs claimed they descended from 'Chunwei', the son of Jie, last Xia Dynasty lord.) The Mongolian claim could be built on basis of the nomadic tribal groups which never left the Mongolian plateau. Western history books tried in vain to make a distinction, and they said that the Genghis Mongols were descendants of the Ruruans. The Ruruans, however, were more Hunnic than Mongol as we would explore in this section and had explored in the section on the Huns. The 'Mongol' claim for Ruruans could be built on basis of one comment in History Of Toba Wei Dynasty, namely, the founder of Ruruan people might have origin in Eastern Hu nomads, a group more associated with the Tungusic people of Manchuria and eastern Mongolia. My research into various records, however, shows that the Ruruans were more Hunnic than anything else after relocating to the west. After the Ruruan founder fled to the Altai Mountains, he conquered and absorbed remnant Hunnic and Gaoche tribes there. To provide as detailed descriptions as possible, I had traced the Huns and Turks according to the specific naming as recorded in history, rather than generic naming. I traced the ending of the Eastern Huns to their relocation to Hebei Province by the Tuoba in AD 523 and that of the western Huns to Attila and his warfare in Europe in AD 433-453. The third group of Huns, Ruruan, and their relationship with Nie-ban (Nirvana) Huns, would be touched upon below and in Huns section. (blue turk ? I doubt this terminology ever existed in Chinese chronicles. blue means 'east')

The Turks did not come about till they, employed as a group of iron miners in the Altai Mountains, rebelled against the Ruruans in AD 546-553. We need to make a distinction here between the words of 'Turk', 'Turkic' and 'Turkish'. The word 'Turk' would denote the group of people as recorded in the middle 6th century. The word 'Turkic' means more a language that was spoken by the Euroasian nomads, and the earlier Huns were said to be Turkic as well. The word 'Turkish', however, would denote specifically the people and the language in today's Turkey, i.e., Anatolia. Western history books classify the Ruruans as 'Mongolian', but the term 'Mongolian' was a much later concept. The term 'Mongolian' did not appear till Khubilai endorced it in the 14th century, supposedly on basis of the word 'Mengwu Shiwei'. Conventional history would make such a distinction between the Turkic and Mongolian ethnicity. Here, I will refer to the Ruruans as 'Hunnic' versus their Turkic adversaries for clarification's sake. The Ruruans are said to be the successors to the Huns, and this group of people had also been responsible for pressuring the so-called 'Huns' into migrations towards Europe as well as cracking down on the eastern Huns in collaboration with the Tuoba. The Ruruans, as we detailed in the Hun section, were more Hunnic than those they chased away towards Europe. The two groups, Ruruans and Turks, were hostile towards each other. Numerous records point to the Turks' chasing the Ruruan khan to the Western Wei Dynasty (AD 535-557) as well as chased other Ruruan royal family members to the Hephthalite Empire of the White Huns (Ye-tai). Ruruans had inter-marriage with both Western Wei and the Ye-tai. In AD 553-68, the Turks and Sassanians in today's Iran allied in destroying the Hephthalite Empire of White Huns [Ye-tai]. "



Turkish language Tree


Turkic Language Turkic language tree

Unlike other earlier nomads who left no records of written language, the Turks possessed the so-called Orkhon inscriptions (a Kok Turk invention related to Eastern Khate around AD 682) in a runic-like script, and this script was deciphered back in 1896. There was some element of Chinese language among the early Orkhon scripts, though. Note Han Dynasty Chinese had no problem communicating with the Huns who were speculated to be Turkic-speaking as well. The forms of the lost languages of the Khitans, Tanguts and Jurchens, like the Korean writing, had all appeared to be some kind of revision on top of Chinese pictographs. Among the Turks, the Uygurs were great language masters, and adopted their own script which became known as the Uygur script. They helped Chingiz Khan's Mongols in devising the written Mongol language in early 13th century. The Uygur script indirectly influened the Manchus when the latter adopted the Mongolian script in 1599. (The Manchus first used Khitan's Siniform script and finally adopted Chinese logographic characters.) Turkic language is one of the three language branches in the Altaic language family, namley, Turkic, Mongolian and Tunguzic. My suspicion is that the branches did not distinguish themselves till much later, and the three language branch designations were the products of linguists of 20th century any way. When you look at the photos of ruins of Karakorum, near the Orkhon River, southwest of Ulaanbaatar as well as few slates of tomb stones on the desolate Gobi, the impression will be all yours to imagine who the successive dwellers had been on that land. The control of the area of Mongolia had passed from the Turks to the Uygurs, then to the Kyrgyz. (The Kyrgyz were said to be the last Turkic people to have resided in Mongolia, but in the section on Mongols, we had listed quite a few groups of peoples who appeared to be more Turkic than the later Mongols.)

A simple comparison of some words in later Mongolian language yields the following interesting points: The word for the Mongolinas, Mongqol irgen, is the same word 'irgen' as used in ancient Chinese pronunciation which could be corrobated by the Cantonese pronunciation of 'irgen' and Japanese pronuncitation of 'nin' or 'dgen'. Still more interesting is the fact that Genghis Khan's name, Timuchin, shared the same prefix as some of his brothers and sister, with Ti meaning nothing more than a Chinese word 'Tie' for iron or smith. JOHANN WILHELM ADOLF KIRCHHOFF (1826-1908) mentioned two Kara-Kirghiz groups, i.e., "the On or "Right" in the east, with seven branches (Bogu, Sary-Bagishch, Son-Bagishch, Sultu or Solye, Cherik, Sayak, Bassinz), and the Sol or "Left" in the west, with four branches (Kokche or Kfichy, Soru, Mundus, Kitai or Kintai)". As stated at <a href="http://57.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KI/KIRGHIZ.htm</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://57.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KI/KIRGHIZ.htm</a>;, the "Sol section occupies the region between the Talass and Oxus headstreams in Ferghana (Khokand) and Bokhara, ... The On section lies on both sides of the Tian-shan, about Lake Issyk-kul, and in the Chu, Tekes and Narin (upper Jaxartes) valleys." Once again, ancient Chinese words, like right for 'you' (mutated into 'on') and left for 'zuo' (mutated into 'sol'), were adopted by nomadic tribes on the steppe. Note that the Huns used to designate their officials into rightside and leftside virtuous kings, similar to Qin Principality's adoption of rightside and leftside prime ministers. Isenbike Togan of Middle East Technical University stated that "written Chinese is also a system of signs... Central Asian people who were not Chinese used this system at some time in the past, including the Turks." Isenbike Togan concluded that the Turkish word for 'freezing' came from Chinese word 'dong[4]'. Reader jianx mentioned that "...many words have similar sound and meaning as chinese -- the madarin... A few examples: Chinese: Bo2: father's brother --> turkish: Bey: same meaning( more general); Wa(1)Di(4): low land --> Vadi: valley; Shui(3): water --> Sui: water; Jie(2): sister --> ajia: female relative, sister. ...Turkish people have chinese last names. For example, Turkish 'Tan' is obviously a chinese last name. In turkish, it means 'sunrise', which is nearly identical to 'Dan(4)' in chinese --- the Zhou Dynasty's famous Zhou(1)Gong(1) Dan(4) --- you should know it means that the sun is rising over the horizon."

As to Turkic language, there had existed a much earlier version of language than the Orkhon script. There is on record a poem written by the wife of a Chinese officer under the Di[1] people's Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394), and it was said that this love poem was sent to her husband who was exiled to the border post in China's silk road. The points to make here is that it was written in so-called 'Hui' language, namely, a terminology that was to be used for denoting Turkic language later. Hui means something self-looping or percolating, in a similar fashion to the Iranian languages. (Today's Chinese designated Muslims as 'Hui Ren' and Islam as 'Hui Jiao'.) The poem, woven on silk clothing, could be read from right to left and from left to right. Both the earlier 'Hui Wen' and later Orkhon script must have been impacted by more than Chinese. Iranian languages had been found in the same area. Excavated in areas rear Turfan would be manuscripts in Bactrian, the ancient language of Bactria in northern Afghanistan. Kushan ruler Kanishka, who was of Yuezhi origin, adopted Bactrian as the language of his coinage. After the collapse of the Kushan empire, Bactrian language continued in use till the ninth-century, as evidenced by inscriptions from the Tochi valley in Pakistan and the remnants of Buddhist and Manichean manuscripts found in the Turfan oasis. (It goes without saying that neither the reign of Kanishka nor that of the Kushan dynasty approached 1000 years. In about 2Z4 A.D. the Sasanians came to power in Iran. Within a few years the Sasanians had also conquered Bactria, which they ruled during part of the following period through a viceroy known as the Kushan-shah 'king of the Kushans", who was often a prince of the Sasanian royal family. Subsequently Bactria was invaded several times by nomads from the north. At different times the invaders are referred to under various names --- Chionites, Kidarite Huns, Hephthalites --- though it is not entirely clear whether all these names refer to the same or to different peoples. The next arrivals were the Turks, who in the middle of the sixth century allied themselves with the Sasanians to defeat the Hephthalites; and then finally all the local dynasties were swept aside by the coming of Islam and the Arabs.)




Origin Of Turks & The Uygur Turks

Nationalist Uygurs, at <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1730/buh.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1730/buh.html</a>;, stated that "after 210 B.C., the Uygurs played important roles in the Hun (220 B.C. - 386 A.D.), Tabgach (To'pa) (386-554 A.D.), and Kok Turk (552-744 A.D.) empires which were established in Central Asia". This statement would be erroneous in its lumping together different groups of peoples.

The Turks, specifically called Tujüe or Tujue (Turks) at the time of North Dynasties (AD 386-581) and Sui/Tang Dynasties, asserted themselves in late time period of Toba Northern Wei Dynasty (A.D. 386-533). Toba Wei split into Eastern and Western Wei Dynasties in AD 534. The Turks rebelled against the Ruruans in AD 546-553. However, there were earlier references to Turkic tents in the 4th and 5th centuries, respectively. Below, I will cite a few records in Chinese history. Among the following sayings, personally, I am more inclined to believe that the ancestors of Turks might be related to the 500 families who fled to the Altai Mountains after Toba Wei Emperor Daowudi (Toba Gui, reign 386-409) defeated the Hunnic Statelet of Juqu in today's Gansu Province.

In China, 16 Nations (AD 304-420) were comprised of various nomadic groups of people: Huns, Jiehu, Xianbei (including Wuhuan & Toba), Qiang, & Di. Ultimately, the Toba (Tuoba), who were of Xianbei heritage, took over northern China. Leftover Huns were absorbed by Ruruan, and Ruruan were defeated and exterminated by Turks. Toba would deal with the onslaughts by the Ruruans first and then the Turks. Toba got sinicized in northern China. Ultimately, Toba Wei Dynasty would be usurped by two generals of Xianbei heritage. Northern Qi and Northern Zhou replaced the two Toba dynasties. Sui China would be built on Northern Zhou Dynasty of Yuwen clan.

The origin of the Turk was interesting as well as the name of it. Tang Dynasty writer, Li Yanshou, in his book History Of The Northern Dynasties, wrote that the Turks were alternative Huns whose ancestors had originally dwelled to the right side of the Xihai (West Sea), i.e., Qinghaihu Lake of Qinghai Prov. According to Chinese records, the ancestor of the Turks came from a boy whose arms were cut off and whose ankles were also deliberately disabled by the tribal feuds. This boy was from the background of mixed Hu nomads in today's Gansu-Qinhai areas. History Of The Northern Dynasties said that the Turkic clan to which the boy belonged dwelled to the west side of Xi Hai. (Xi Hai was also the name for the Mediterranean). A wolf would be responsibile for saving the life of the boy. When the enemies found out about the boy, they killed the boy. However, the pregnant wolf fled to the mountains near ancient Gaochang Statelet (Turpan) and she gave birth to 10 children who ultimately became the ancestors of later Turks, i.e., Ten Turkic Family Names. The ten Turks used their wives' family name as their respective clan name. Ashina was one of the ten names.

Li Yanshou also recorded another theory, namely, the ancestors of the Turks were the mixed Ashina Hu nomads in Pingzhou and Liangzhou areas. About 500 households of them fled to the Ruruan for protection, dwelled to the south of the Altai Mountains, and became the iron slaves of the Ruruans, at the time when Toba Wei Emperor Daowudi (reign 386-409) defeated the Hunnic Statelet of Juqu's Northern Liang in today's Gansu Province. The name of "turk" was in fact something denoting some cloth cover on the head, said to be of the same shape as the Altai mountains in today's Western China. Li Yanshou also said that the Turks could have their origin from a statelet called Suoguo which was to the north of the Huns. The Hunnic tribal chieftan, i.e., A'pangbu, possessed 70 brothers, with one of them born with a wolf. Brother Nishidu would revive the tribe after it was conquered by neighbors. Nishidu had four sons, with one son leading the Qigu statelet, and the elder son living on Mount Ba-si-chu-zhe-shi-shan. This elder son was made into the chieftan, and he bore ten sons, with the youngest named Ashina. Ashina was later selected as the chieftan because he could jump the highest against the tree. Ashina had one of his descendant by the name of Tumen (Bumin). In AD 545, a Western Toba Wei emissary visited Tumen. Tumen was delighted at the visit by grandiose Chinese emissary and thought this visit might for sure bring along luck to him. Tumin sent in tributes to Toba Wei Dynasty the second year.

From the standpoint of one Chinese historian writer (Cai Dongfan), the Turks are a so-called "bie zhong" of the Huns, namely, "alternative race" or "different race" if translated literally. The Turks became a strong power after they, under Tumen, defeated the 'Tiele Tribe' and absorbed about 50,000 households in AD 546. Juqu's Northern Liang connection is the most credible explanation, in my opinion.

TURKS

Early Turkic History

Turks, thinking that they helped in rearing the Tiele Tribes on behalf of the Ruruans, proposed a marriage with the princess of the Ruruans. Ruruans declined their request. Hence, Turks sought for marriage with Toba's Western Wei Dynasty. In the 17th year of Western Wei's Datong era, i.e., AD 551, Turkic Khan Tumen (Bumin) obtained Toba Princess Changle as a bride. When Western Wei Emperor Wendi died, Tumen sent in 200 horses as condolences. In the first year of Western Wei Emperor Feidi, Tumen defeated the Ruruans, causing Ruruan Khan commit suicide and Ruruan Khan's son flee to Northern Qi Dynasty. Tumen declared himself Khan Yili and gave his wife the title of Ke-hedun or Kedun (similar to Hunnic title of Yanzhi for queen). Tumen's son, named Keluo, was Khan Yixiji. Khan Yixiji would defeat Ruruan Khan's brother (Dengshuzi). Yixiji's brother, Sijin (Sinjibu?), aka Yandu, would succeed Khan Yixiji as Khan Muchu. Sijin was recorded to be red-faced and possess liuli [brown] eyes, and he would defeat Dengshuzi at Mount Beilaishan and drive Dengshuzi into Northern Zhou territories for asylum. (Dengshuzi and his 3000 followers would later be handed over to the Turks for execution by Northern Zhou.)

Sijin would now defeat the Ye-tai in the west, the Khitans in the east, and Qigu in the north. Hence, the Turks controlled the vast territories extending from Chinese Turkistan to Manchuria. Turks were recorded to have about 28 levels of officials, including Yehu, She(4), Teqin, Silifa, Tudunfa etc. They had the same custom as the Scandinavian pirates in that they would burn the dead body of their chieftan together with the belongings like horses and clothes. Tents were always opened towards the east where the sun rose.

In the third year of Northern Zhou Emperor Wendi (?), the Turks defeated the Tuyuhun in today's Qinghai-Gansu area. Sijin had once wavered, in face of gifts from two Chinese states, several times, in marrying over his daughter to either Northern Qi or Northern Zhou, and he finally settled down on intermarriage with Northern Zhou. In AD 561, i.e., the first year of Baoding Era (Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi), the Turks under Sijin (Khan Muchu), with 100,000 strong army, joined Northern Zhou's Duke Sui (Yang Zhong) in attacking Northern Qi. Turks reached ancient Bingzhou Prefecture (northern Shanxi Prov). Turks requested for a second attack on Northern Qi. Sijin yielded his post to his brother at death bed. Sijin's brother, i.e., Tabo [Tuobo] Khan, would make Shetu as Khan E'fu in charge of the east and a brother (Khan Rudan) as Khan Buli in charge of the west. Tabo Khan would play Northern Zhou and Northern Qi for tributes and treated the two Chinese statelet rulers as stepsons. A Northern Qi monk called Huilin would convert Tabo to Buddhism. After Northern Zhou destroyed Northern Qi, Tabo Khan would welcome a Northern Qi prince called Gao Baoyi (King of Fanyang) and make him the nominal new emperor of Northern Qi. In AD 578, the first year of Xuanzheng Era of Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi, Tabo attacked Beijing and killed a Northern Zhou general called Liu Xiong. Khan Tabo raided Jiuquan of Gansu Prov thereafter; meantime, Yutian [Khotan], Persia and Ye-tai rebelled against the Turks in the west. Northern Zhou Emperor Wudi would promise to send Princess Qianjin to Tabo Khan for reconciliation. Khan Tabo raided Bingzhou and stopped raiding when Princess Qianjin was delivered. Tabo would expell Gao Baoyi to Northern Zhou years later after reaching a deal with Northern Zhou. At the death of Tabo Khan, Tabo Khan asked his son to yield the throne back to his second brother's son. The elder brother's son, Shabolüe, refused to acknowledge the new khan. Hence, Turks would possess four different khans.

After Sui Dynasty replaced Northern Zhou in AD 581, Shabolüe's wife, i.e., Princess Qianjin, would pursuade Turks into avenging on the Sui Dynasty. Defeated by Sui, Shabolüe Khan would blame Khan Ah'bo and henced attacked and killed the mother of Ah'bo. Ah'bo fled to the west for asylum with Datou (Tardu) Khan. The Turkic Khans attacked each other. Hence, Sui sent an official called Yu Qingzhe and pursuaded Shabolüe into seeking vasslage with Sui. Shabolue gave his sister to Yu Qingzhe as an appreciation of the peace efforts. When attacked by Turks from the west and the Khitans from the east, Shabolüe Khan was allowed to relocate to the south of the desert and Sui Dynasty acknowledged him as a minister instead of a vassal. Sui Emperor Wendi conferred the family name of Yang on Princess Qianjin and renamed her to Princess Dayi. After the death of Khan Shabolüe, Sui Emperor Wendi mourned for three days. Khan Shabolüe's brother, Shetu (Khan E'fu), was in charge of the east. Shetu asked his son to see another Shabolüe brother called Chuluo-hou and made Chuluo-hou the new khan. Chuluo-hou attacked Turks in the west by demonstrating the flags conferred by by Sui and he captured Khan Ah'bo. After Chuluo-hou died of an arrow wound, Shetu's son, Yongyulu, was made into Khan Duolan. When Sui Emperor sent over the screens of deposed Southern Chinese Dynasty of Chen to Prince Dayi, Prince Dayi thought about revenge again and she contacted a Western Turkic Khan for assistance. Shaobolue's son, Tuli Khan, was in charge of the north. Sui Dynasty asked Tuli Khan to advise Khan Duolan in killing Princess Dayi before Tuli Khan could marry Princess Anyi of Sui Dynasty. Sui Emperor played a trick in bestowing a lot of gifts on Tuli Khan, hence angering the Arch Turkic Khan Duolan into a rivalry against Tuli Khan. Khan Duolan once killed all brothers and children of Khan Tuli. After the death of Princess Anyi, Tuli Khan (Rangan) would marry with Princess Yicheng of Sui Dynasty. Tuli Khan would be entitled Qiren Khan (Qimin Khan) and was allowed to stay south of the Yellow River, at Xia-zhou and Shen-zhou prefectures. Similar to Han Emperor Wudi, Sui Emperor Wendi dispatched multiple columns of armies against the rivalry Turks, several times, deep into northwestern territories. Khan Duolan was killed by his own people. Datou would proclaim himself Khan Bujia and fought wars with both Sui and Khan Tuli. In the first year of Rensou Era, Yang Su was conferred the post of Grand Marshal of Yunzhou and led Khan Qiren Khan to fight the Turks under Nili Khan. Khan Bujia fled to Tuyuhun. Khan Qiren took over the people of both Nili Khan and Bujia Khan. While Sui Dynasty was attacking the Turks, the Tiele Tribes joined in and defeated the Turks in the northwest. Sui armies, joined by Qimin Khan, would quell the rivalry Turks. In AD 607, the third year of Daye Era of Sui Emperor Yangdi, Qimin Khan and Princess Yicheng came to pay respect to Emperor Yangdi and offered 3000 horses when Yangdi arrived at Yulin, Shenxi, in the Hetao area. When Khan Qiren died, Sui Emperor mourned for three days. Khan Qiren's son, Tujieli, would succeed as Khan Shibi. During the 11th year of Sui Emperor's reign, Khan Shibi came to Sui capital. Later, Khan Shibi attacked Sui emperor at Yanmenguan Pass. Duke of Tang, Li Yuan, defeated the Shibi Turks at Mayi. When Sui was in upheaval, Shibi Khan welcomed Sui Emepress Xiaohou. Chinese fled to Turks in hordes for avoiding civil wars, and Turks became powerful while Tang China was weak after emerging from the civil wars after the demise of Sui Dynasty.

In the west, the Turks was led by the son of Muchu Khan. When conflicting with Khan Shabolue, Western Turks set up two courts, one in ancient Shi-guo Statelet and the other in ancient Qiuci (Chouci) Statelet. Chouci, Tiele and Yiwu etc were all subject to Western Turks. After Chuluo-hou captured the western Turkic khan, Nili Khan would be enthroned. Nili Khan's son would be Chuluo Khan who resided in the old Wusun territory, i.e., today's Ili. By AD 605, the western Turks were in constant fights with the Tiele Tribes. Sui Dynasty sent a minister called Fei Ju to pursuade Western Turkic Khan Chuluo to seek vassalage with Sui. Khan Chuluo's mother, named Lady Xiang, was a Chinese who was living in Sui capital at the time. Sui tried to have Chuluo Khan attack Tuyuhun using the pretext that Chuluo could safely come to Sui capital to see his mother should Tuyuhun be cleared in the midway. Since Khan Chuluo refused to pay respect to Sui Emperor Yangdi in person, Yangdi would adopt Fei Ju's advice in supporting the grandson of Tardu (Datou) to have Chuluo replaced. Chuluo Khan fled to Gaochang Statelet and he later was pursuaded into surrender by his mother, Lady Xiang. Chuluo Khan later followed Yangdi in the Korean Expedition and was entitled Hesana Khan. Princess Xingyi was married to Khan Chuluo. When Sui Emperor Yangdi was killed by palace corp in Yangzhou, Chuluo Khan fled back to the Sui capital, but he was killed by Turks from the north.

When Tang Dynasty's founder, Li Yuan, rebelled against Sui Dynasty, he would sent his minister (Liu Wenjing) to the Eastern Turks (ruled by Khan Shibi) for borrowing 2000 horses and 500 cavalry. At this time, Khan Shibi subjugated Tuyuhun in Gansu-Qinghai, Gaochang near Turpan, Khitans and Shiwei in northwestern Manchuria and eastern Mongolia. Khan Shibi intervened in China's civil wars and assisted Li Yuan's rivals, such as Liu Wuzhou & Liang Shidu. After the death of Khan Shibi, his brother, Chuluo Khan (same name as Chuluo Khan during Sui Dynasty time period), would be enthroned. Chuluo Khan assisted another Tang rival, Wang Shichong. Later, Chuluo Khan retrieved ex-Sui Empress Xiao and ex-Sui royal family from still another Tang rival called Dou Jiande. Chuluo Khan erected an ex-Sui royal member as the new Sui King. Chuluo Khan was determined to fight Tang on behalf of dethroned Sui Dynasty, saying that he wanted to return favor to Sui for Sui's helping his ancestors in the restoration of the Turkic khanate. Later, Chuluo Khan died and his brother, Khan Xieli, would be enthroned.

Khan Xieli was disuaded from an alliance with another Tang rival called Xue Ju. Khan Xieli would erect his cousin, i.e., Shibi Khan's son, as Khan Tuli (same name as Tuli during Sui Dynasty time period) in the east, and Tuli would take charge of the ancient tribes of Khitans and Mojie (ancestors of Jurchens) people. Khan Xieli would take over Princess Yicheng as his wife. Princess Yicheng's brother (Yang Sanjing) and Wang Shichong's emissary would somehow pursuade Khan Xieli into challenging Tang Dynasty on behalf of dethroned Sui. In AD 621, Khan Xieli invaded Yanmenguan Pass and Dai Prefecture. For several years, Tang and Turks fought numerous battles across the northern border areas. By the 7th year of Tang Emperor Gaozu, in AD 626, Li Shimin or Li Shih-min (i.e., King Qin of Tang Dynasty and later Tang Emperor Taizong or Tai-tsung, AD 597-649), would sow a dissension among Xieli Khan and Tuli Khan. Unable to call upon Tuli to fight Tang further, Xieli Khan sent Tuli Khan and Simo to Tang for sake a peace treaty with Tang. Tuli Khan and King Qin promised to be brothers, while Tang Emperor Gaozu said to Simo that he felt he had seen Khan Xieli by meeting with Simo. In the following two years, Tang was busy building ships around the North Bend of the Yellow River for defence against Turks, while Turks broke the peace and kept attacking Tang. In AD 627, Tang Emperor Taizong got enthroned after staging "Xuan Wu Men Coup D'etat" during which he killed two brothers and forced Emperor Gaozu into abdication. This year, Tiele Tribes, including Xueyantuo, Huihe and Bayegu, rebelled against the Turks. Khan Xieli accused Khan Tuli of failing to quell the Tiele rebellion. Being attacked by Khan Xieli, Khan Tuli requested for help with Tang Emperor Taizong in AD 628. The next year, Xueyantuo proclaimed themselves as a khan and sought allianace with Tang. In the fourth year, AD 630, Tang ordered General Li Jing on a full campaign against Khan Xieli and captured Khan Xieli. Further details of Turkic history will be covered in Eastern Khnanate and Western Khnanate.


<a href="http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/early_Turkic_history.htm</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_Turks/early_Turkic_history.htm</a>;

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June 27 2006, 1:27 PM 

Ïé êáôáðéåóìÝíïé ÁëåâÞäåò, ï äéáìåëéóìüò ôçò Ôïõñêßáò êáé ðïéïé èá êïéìçèïýí êÜôù áðü ôçí "Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ"
Ôï Üñèñï áõôü äçìïóéåýôçêå óôïí çìåñÞóéï ôýðï, äõóôõ÷þò üìùò äåí Ý÷ù ðåñéóóüôåñá óôïé÷åßá ãé' áõôü.

ÅÉÓÁÃÙÃÇ
ÊáôÜ ôçí äéÜñêåéá ôïõ ðñþôïõ óõíåäñßïõ ôïõ "Ëáúêïý Ïñèüäïîïõ Óõíáãåñìïý" ôïí ÌÜéï ôïõ 2002 óôïí "¸óðåñï", ï ê. Ãéþñãïò ÊáñáôæáöÝñçò åß÷å ðåé ìéá áëçóìüíçôç öñÜóç ðïõ Ýêáíå ìåãÜëç åíôýðùóç êáé ðïëëïß äåí ôçí êáôÜëáâáí: "Ïíåéñåýïìáé íá êïéìçèþ êÜôù áðü ôçí Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ" åß÷å äçëþóåé ôüôå ï áñ÷çãüò ôïõ "ËÁ.Ï.Ó." êáé êÜðïéïé áóôïé÷åßùôïé äçìïóéïãñÜöïé Ýóðåõóáí íá ôïí åéñùíåõôïýí. Áãíïþíôáò ïé Üó÷åôïé üôé ìå ôïí üñï "Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ" ïé ßäéïé ïé Ôïýñêïé åííïïýí ôçí ãåíÝôåéñÜ ôïõò, ðïõ âñßóêåôáé áíáôïëéêüôåñá ôçò Áãêýñáò, óôá õøßðåäá ôïõ ÔïõñêåóôÜí Þ ôçò Ìïããïëßáò...

Ç öñÜóç, ëïéðüí, "Ïíåéñåýïìáé íá êïéìçèþ êÜôù áðü ôçí Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ" åßíáé ç áêñéâþò áíôßóôïé÷ç ôçò öñÜóåùò ðïõ ëÝíå ïé Ôïýñêïé: "Èá ðéïýìå êáöÝ êÜôù áðü ôçí Áêñüðïëç"!..

Áí ïé áíéóôüñçôïé áõôïß äçìïóéïãñÜöïé ðïõ áãíïïýí ôé åßíáé ç "Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ" ðáñáêïëïõèïýóáí ôá ôåêôáéíüìåíá óôçí Ôïõñêßá, èá ãíþñéæáí üôé åäþ êáé ëßãïõò ìÞíåò Ý÷åé äçìéïõñãçèåß ìéá íÝá ïñãÜíùóç ðïõ ôÜóóåôáé ìå öáíáôéóìü åíáíôßïí ôçò åéóüäïõ ôçò Ôïõñêßáò óôçí ÅõñùðáúêÞ ¸íùóç. Áñ÷çãüò ôçò åßíáé ï êáèçãçôÞò Åñüë Ìáíßóáëç, öáíáôéêüò áíôéåõñùðáúóôÞò, ï ïðïßïò èÝëåé íá óôñÝøåé ôçí Ôïõñêßá ðñïò ôçí Áóßá, ãéáôß ðéóôåýåé üôé ìüíï Ýôóé èá îáíáâñåß ôï ðáëéü ôçò ìåãáëåßï.
Ç ïñãÜíùóç ôïõ êáèçãçôïý Ìáíßóáëç Ý÷åé ôçí åýãëùôôç ïíïìáóßá "Ç Êüêêéíç ÌçëéÜ"!!
Ôï "ðéóôåýù" ôïõ ê. Ìáíßóáëç åêöñÜæåôáé óôï ìðåóô-óÝëëåñ âéâëßï ôïõ "Ðñáîéêüðçìá ôïõ ëáïý åíáíôßïí ôïõ Óôñáôïý"(!) êáé ç âáóéêÞ ôïõ èÝóç åßíáé ç åîÞò: Åö' üóïí ôá ôïõñêéêÜ êüììáôá åßíáé áíßó÷õñá êáé äåí ìðïñïýí íá óôáìáôÞóïõí ôçí ñáãäáßÜ åîÜðëùóç ôïõ Éóëáìéóìïý óôçí ÷þñá, ôï Ýñãï áõôü ðñÝðåé íá ôï áíáëÜâåé ôï ôïõñêéêüò óôñáôüò êáé ãé' áõôü äéêáéïýôáé íá êÜíåé üóá ðñáîéêïðÞìáôá èÝëåé!

ÏÉ ÊÁÔÁÐÉÅÓÌÅÍÏÉ ÁËÅÂÇÄÅÓ
Ç Ôïõñêßá åßíáé üíôùò Ýíá ìõóôÞñéï êáé äåí ìðïñïýí íá ôçí êáôáëÜâïõí ïýôå ïé ßäéïé ïé Ôïýñêïé. ÌðñïóôÜñçò áõôïý ôïõ ìõóôçñßïõ åßíáé ï ßäéïò ï ðñùèõðïõñãüò Ôáãßð ÅñíôïãÜí:
Îåêßíçóå óáí öáíáôéêüò éóëáìéóôÞò, åîåëß÷ôçêå óå ìåôñéïðáèÞ éóëáìéóôÞ êáé åäþ êáé ôñßá - ôÝóóåñá ÷ñüíéá åßíáé ôï áãáðçìÝíï ðáéäß ôùí Áìåñéêáíþí ïé ïðïßïé õðïôßèåôáé üôé ìéóïýí ôïí Éóëáìéóìü! Ðþò åîçãåßôáé ç ðåñßðôùóç ôïõ ÅñíôïãÜí, ï ïðïßïò óçìåéùôÝïí Ýãéíå ðÜìðëïõôïò îáöíéêÜ êáé ôá äýï áðü ôá ðáéäéÜ ôïõ óðïõäÜæïõí óå ðáíÜêñéâá áìåñéêÜíéêá ðáíåðéóôÞìéá;
Ãéá ðáñÜäåéãìá, ç óõíôñéðôéêÞ ðëåéïøçößá ôùí ÅëëÞíùí áãíïåß ãéá ðïéïí ëüãï ï ÅñíôïãÜí öõëáêßóôçêå ãéá ðïëëïýò ìÞíåò ðñéí ëßãá ÷ñüíéá áðü ôï Êåìáëéêü êáèåóôþò. Ï "ìðáãÜóáò", ùò äÞìáñ÷ïò Êùíóôáíôéíïõðüëåùò, åß÷å áðáããåßëåé äçìïóßùò Ýíá óêëçñü éóëáìéêü ðïßçìá ðïõ ëÝåé åðß ëÝîåé ôá åîÞò: "Ïé ìéíáñÝäåò åßíáé ïé îéöïëüã÷åò ìáò, ïé ôñïýëïé åßíáé ôá êñÜíç ìáò, ôá ôæáìéÜ åßíáé ôá óôñáôüðåäÜ ìáò, ïé ðéóôïß åßíáé ïé óôñáôéþôåò ìáò"!..

ÊáôÜ ôçí ôáðåéíÞ ìïõ ãíþìç, ôï "êëåéäß" ãéá íá êáôáëÜâïõìå êÜðùò ôï "ÌõóôÞñéï Ôïõñêßá" åßíáé ï Áëåâéóìüò Þ Ìðå÷ôáóéóìüò. Ðñüêåéôáé ãéá ìéá áßñåóç ôïõ ÉóëÜì, Ýíá êñÜìá Óáìáíéóìïý, Óéúóìïý êáé åëëçíïñèïäïîßáò ðïõ - êáôÜ ôïõò ìåôñéüôåñïõò õðïëïãéóìïýò áõôÞ ôçí óôéãìÞ óôçí Ôïõñêßá áñéèìåß 25 åêáôïììýñéá ðéóôïýò.
Ç ðëÜêá åßíáé ç åîÞò: Åíþ ïé ÁëåâÞäåò Þóáí ðÜíôá ðáñáäïóéáêÜ Êåìáëéêïß, åí ôïýôïéò åßíáé êáôáäéùêüìåíïé óôçí Ôïõñêßá ìå ôçí åîÞò Ýííïéá. Ôï Ëáúêü Êåìáëéêü ÊñÜôïò ôïõò èåùñåß ìïõóïõëìÜíïõò (åíþ ïé ßäéïé ìéóïýí ôïí Éóëáìéóìü) êáé ôïõò áðáãïñåýåé íá ãñÜöïõí óôéò ôáõôüôçôÝò ôïõò ùò èñÞóêåõìá ôï "ÁëåâÞò"!.. Ôïõò áíáãêÜæåé íá ãñÜöïõí "ÌïõóïõëìÜíïò" êáé ïé ÁëåâÞäåò ìáæåýïõí õðïãñáöÝò, ãéá íá áëëÜîïõí ôïí íüìï.
Áîßæåé íá áíáöåñèåß êáé ôï åîÞò êáôáðëçêôéêü: Óôçí ðñüóöáôç (4 Ïêôùâñßïõ 2004) Ýêèåóç ôçò ÅõñùðáúêÞò Åíþóåùò ãéá ôçí êáôÜóôáóç óôçí Ôïõñêßá, ïé ÁëåâÞäåò äåí áíáöÝñïíôáé êáèüëïõ ùò Ýíá áðü ôá èñçóêåýìáôá ôçò ÷þñáò, äéüôé èåùñïýíôáé ìïõóïõëìÜíïé! Ôçí ßäéá óôéãìÞ áíáöÝñïíôáé ùò èñçóêåõôéêÞ ìåéïíüôçôá ïé Ñùìéïß, ïé Åâñáßïé, ïé ÁñìÝíçäåò, áêüìç êáé ïé ÐñïôåóôÜíôåò Åõáããåëéêïß ðïõ äåí îåðåñíïýí ôéò 2.500!.. Ôá 25 åêáôïììýñéá ôùí ÁëåâÞäùí ðïõ ìéóïýí ôïí Ìïõóïõëìáíéóìü áãíïïýíôáé åðéäåéêôéêÜ áðü ôçí "Ýêèåóç Ðñüíôé" êé áõôü åßíáé üíôùò Ýíá áíåîÞãçôï ìõóôÞñéï, üóïí áöïñÜ ôï åîÞò: Ðïéïò áíÜãêáóå ôçí ÅõñùðáúêÞ ¸íùóç íá áãíïÞóåé ôüóï åðéäåéêôéêÜ ôïõò ÁëåâÞäåò, äçëáäÞ ôï åí ôñßôïí ôïõ ðëçèõóìïý ôçò óçìåñéíÞò Ôïõñêßáò;

ÌÐÅÑÄÅÌÅÍÁ ÐÑÁÃÌÁÔÁ...
Ï Üíèñùðïò ðïõ Ýêáíå ãíùóôÞ óôçí ÅëëÜäá ôçí ýðáñîç 25 åêáôïììõñßùí Ôïýñêùí ÁëåâÞäùí åßíáé ï äéáðñåðÞò ¸ëëçí ôïõñêïëüãïò ê. ÄçìÞôñçò Êéôóßêçò, êáèçãçôÞò Äéåèíþí Ó÷Ýóåùí óôï ÐáíåðéóôÞìéï ôçò ÏôôÜâáò, êáé ôáêôéêü ìÝëïò ôçò ÊáíáäéêÞò ÂáóéëéêÞò Áêáäçìßáò.

¢ñ÷éóå íá ìáò "îåóôñáâþíåé" áðü ôï 1993 ìå óåéñÜ Üñèñùí ðïõ Ýãñáøå ôüôå óôï ðåñéïäéêü ôïõ ê. ÃéÜííç ×áôæçöþôç "ÐáñÜäïóç". Óýìöùíá ìå ôïí êáèçãçôÞ Êéôóßêç, ç èñçóêåßá ôùí ÁëåâÞäùí õðÞñ÷å ÷éëéÜäåò ÷ñüíéá ðñï ôçò åìöáíßóåùò ôïõ ÉóëÜì êáé ôï íá ëÝìå ðùò ï Áëåâéóìüò åßíáé ìéá áßñåóç ôïõ Éóëáìéóìïý åßíáé óáí íá ëÝìå üôé ï ×ñéóôéáíéóìüò åßíáé ìéá áßñåóç ôïõ Éïõäáúóìïý. Óôï ôñéìçíáßï ðåñéïäéêü "ÅíäéÜìåóç Ðåñéï÷Þ" ðïõ êõêëïöïñåß, ï êáèçãçôÞò Ä. Êéôóßêçò êÜíåé ìéá åêðëçêôéêÞ ðáñïõóßáóç ôùí ÁëåâÞäùí, ôïõò èåùñåß ùò ôïõò áõèåíôéêïýò Ôïýñêïõò (óå áíôßèåóç ìå ôïõò ÌïõóïõëìÜíïõò ðïõ åßíáé ãéáëáíôæß Ôïýñêïé) êáé áðïêáëýðôåé üôé åðß Ôïõñêïêñáôßáò ïé ¸ëëçíåò äåí åîéóëáìßæïíôï áëëÜ... åîáëåâçäßæïíôï!... ¸ôóé åîçãåßôáé êáé ç ðåñßðôùóç ôïõ ÏäõóóÝá Áíäñïýôóïõ ðïõ ïé áñéóôåñï-ðñïïäåõôéêïß ôïí èåùñïýí ìïõóïõëìÜíï. Ï Üíèñùðïò Þôáí áëåâÞò, üðùò ï ÁëÞ ÐáóÜò, óôïí ïðïßï åß÷å ìáèçôåýóåé, üðùò êáé äåêÜäåò Üëëïé ¸ëëçíåò áãùíéóôÝò ôïõ 1821.

Êïíôïëïãßò êáé åðåéäÞ ôï èÝìá "Ôïýñêïé ÁëåâÞäåò" åßíáé äýóêïëï êáé ðïëõóýíèåôï, ìðïñïýìå íá ôåëåéþóïõìå ìå ôï åîÞò: Óýìöùíá ìå ôïí ãíþóôç êáèçãçôÞ Êéôóßêç, ôá 25 åêáôïììýñéá ôùí Ôïýñêùí ÁëåâÞäùí åßíáé åîáéñåôéêÜ öéëÝëëçíåò êáé áí ôåëéêÜ, ïé Áìåñéêáíïß êáôáöÝñïõí íá äéáìåëßóïõí ôçí Ôïõñêßá üðùò ó÷åäéÜæïõí ìå ôçí äçìéïõñãßá ôïõ ÁíåîÜñôçôïõ ÊïõñäéóôÜí, óôïõò ÁëåâÞäåò èá óôçñé÷ôïýí. Ôï ðåñßåñãï åßíáé ôé èåü ðéóôåýåé ï ðáìðüíçñïò ÅñíôïãÜí; ¼ôáí ðñùôïÝãéíå ðñùèõðïõñãüò ôçò Ôïõñêßáò, ï ê. Êéôóßêçò ôïí èåùñïýóå êñõöï-ÁëåâÞ, üðùò Þôáí êáé ï ìáêáñßôçò ï ÏæÜë. ¼ìùò, óôéò 7 Ïêôùâñßïõ 2004, ï ÅñíôïãÜí âãÞêå óôï CNN-Turk êáé äÞëùóå ðùò "ï Áëåâéóìüò äåí ðñÝðåé íá èåùñåßôáé èñçóêåßá, áöïý åßíáé ç ïõóßá ôïõ ÉóëÜì!" ÌðåñäåìÝíá ðñÜãìáôá ðïõ ßóùò îåêáèáñßóïõí ìåôÜ ôçí ÷èåóéíÞ éóôïñéêÞ áðüöáóç ôçò ÅõñùðáúêÞò Åíþóåùò.

Ç ïõóßá åßíáé ìßá êáé ï ìðáêëáâÜò ãùíßá: ÌáêñéÜ ïé Ôïýñêïé áðü ôçí ÅëëÜäá êáé üðïõ èåí' áò ðÜíå...


 
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Anonymous
(Login janisarry)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 1:30 PM 

ýts really strange.
Members of "400 years slave " nation can talk like this,
can continue their lives and calling us murderers.Hýmmmm.
Go **** yourself.Fake Christian dogs.

 
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sssssss
(Login earth222)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 27 2006, 1:34 PM 

@ alexander

do u have more of these painting pic to post???

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:33 PM 

Greeks are the most owned nation of rhe history.
Compared To a warrior nation like Turks they are loosers at battlefield


Who owned Greeks?

1 Empire of Rome owned Greeks
2 Bulgaria owned Greeks
3 Persia owned Greeks
4 Seljuks owned Greeks
5 Empire of Ottoman owned Greeks
6 Germany owned Greeks

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:38 PM 

Empire

your forgetting something very important

Greeks owned the world


Greeks Conquered the world not only by arms, but also with brains, we spread our culture and great knowledge worldwide


1 can list you many Greek stuff still in effect today ie Democracy, Philosophy, medecine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, so on so forth our Legacy still remains

so shove it

What can you claim that still remains of your Legacy today NOTHING



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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Anonymous
(Login HELLASgeo)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:44 PM 

"1 Empire of Rome owned Greeks YEAH... AND ALL ROMANS DIED TO LEARN GREEK AND THEIR CULTURE

2 Bulgaria owned Greeks YEAH.. AND THEN GETTING HUMILIATED AFTER THE BALKANS AND THE TREATIES

3 Persia owned Greeks ..YEAH.. AND THEN SHE LOST HER NAME, BECAME IRAN AND NOW STILL HAS HER HISTORY GLORYFING GREAT ALEXANDER FOR BEING HER LIBERATOR.

4 Seljuks owned Greeks.. AHAM. WHEN?

5 Empire of Ottoman owned Greeks OTTOMAN EMPIRE FELL RIGHT AFTER THE BALKAN WARS, TREATIES AND ESPECCIALY TREATY OF SEVRES (AUGUST 1920), GAVE GREECE MORE THAN 30% OF OTTOMANS EMPIRE LANDS, WHICH WERE OFCOURSE GREEK.

6 Germany owned Greeks" REALLY?? AND THEN GETTING HUMILIATED BY PAYING FOR EVERY DISASTER SHE CAUSED THE WORLD IN WW2:)

CHEERS,
georgia

-----------------

When the mind's eye rests on objects illuminated by truth and reality, it understands and comprehends them, and functions intelligently; but when it turns to the twilight world of change and decay, it can only form opinions, its vision is confused and its beliefs shifting, and it seems to lack intelligence. (Plato, Republic)




 
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Anonymous
(Login Thucydides)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:46 PM 

Bulgaria was dominated by the Byzantine empire...they never owned the Greeks. Only Serbia managed to have a brief kingdom in northen Greece. Persia never owned the Greeks...the Greeks owned the Persians many times. Learn your history son. Obviously, your warrior nation does not read too many books.

The Turks were:

1: Owned by the British
2: Owned by the French
3: Owned badly by the Russians
4: Owned by the Austrians in Vienna twice
5: Owned by the Greeks in 1821
6: Owned by the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians in 1912
7: Owned by the Allies in WWI
8: Owned several times by a little Italian city called Venice
9: Owned today by Americans and Israelis
10: Owned today by the Kurds

Turkey was kept alive by the British and French as nothing more than a buffer state to Russia, otherwise it would have been wiped out long ago.

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:48 PM 

Greek Legacy still Remains today


where is the Ottoman Legacy ???





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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:51 PM 

WE OWNED YOU SINCE 1071 TO 1821
WASNT IT ENOUGH ?
WOULD YOU PREFER TO LIVE AS SLAVES ,INSECTS AGAIN?

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:54 PM 

YOU BEGGED US TO ALLOW YOUR NATION TO LIVE
IF WE HAD WANTED THERE WOULD BE NO NATION CALLED GREEK TODAY
EVEN 100 YEARS WERE ENOUGH TO ERADICATE YOUR NATION
WE HAD 600 YEARS
CHEERS

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:56 PM 

Otto says

"WE OWNED YOU SINCE 1071 TO 1821
WASNT IT ENOUGH ?"


and why wouldn't you able to hold on to us and still keep us as slaves t'ill Today???

Because you are an incompetent Nation, that's why


and we kicked your asses back then

and we are still kicking your ass even today in every single field






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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 7:59 PM 

Otto says

"YOU BEGGED US TO ALLOW YOUR NATION TO LIVE
IF WE HAD WANTED THERE WOULD BE NO NATION CALLED GREEK TODAY
EVEN 100 YEARS WERE ENOUGH TO ERADICATE YOUR NATION
WE HAD 600 YEARS"


I say Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

Excuses of an incompetent Nations

Greeks still alive and kicking, Kurds still Alive and kicking, Armenians still alive and kicking, turkey getting kicked by everyone



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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 8:04 PM 

Everyone in turkey can be a Millionaire




actual worth




But don't let them fool you, they have the New Turkish Lira cause all the Zero's didn't fit they need room to add new ones





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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 8:08 PM 

dont compare the history of the 2 nation .when the greeks made science u lived in a tree fu**ing the monkeys.how many empires greece has made and how many the ottomans .about the fact that greece never won a fight against ottomans:we fu**ed u in the balkans wars ,we fu**ed u in the ww1,even in the ww2 we f**ed the italians,the fact that greece gave more fights than turkey and still exists makes u fill like **** ,even in the ww2 u didnt gave a fight u chicken****s!!!

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 9:31 PM 

BLAH BLAH BLAH !
SHUT UP SLAVE !
OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER !

 
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(Login CretanArrow)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 9:40 PM 

History remembers Hellas for her contributions to the world in everything from the sciences, culture, and military tactics. The Ottomans are not even on the same level as Hellas was and is. If you compare Greece to Turkey today we surpass you in every field despite having less resources, living in a very mountainous country and 6-7 times smaller population.

Hellas was enslaved by the Romans from 196BC - 330AD and then by the Ottomans from 1453AD-1821AD. We have been free for less than 200 years. 200 years from now Hellas will be decades ahead of Turkey in every field. Greeks are very inquisitive, bright, and curious people. We are usually very successful in business as well. In the EU, we currently are in the top 3 countries with advanced degrees for our younger population.

In the Greek army approximately 40% of recruits hold bachelors degrees and 18% hold masters degrees. Most Greeks that I met in Chicago studying abroad were in masters courses and all of them with the exception of myself went back to the Greece to use their knowledge. In 50 years Greece will be a financial and educational powerhouse.

 
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(Login kinmid)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 9:51 PM 

Hey...

Those Turkish forumers in this topic, wasting our time with BS postings...
Why don't you collect signatures and go to an international tribunal to seek justice for the alleged "crimes" of Greeks against Turks?
Maybe we can also condone to an internationaly organized investigation to all crimes commited during the widder historical period in question and make some final and solid definitions of what happened, when it did, how it did, and by whom, for the entire Balkan and Ottoman empire region.
I don't think any other country or nation in the region would object to it.
Let's see what happens when and if you do that.

If you don't do that, then stop posting BS.


HAVE FUN !!!

 
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(Login CretanArrow)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 10:19 PM 

If you adjust for population, Greece owns Turkey in everything (Figures from US State dept.)


Greece
Education: Years compulsory--9. Literacy--97.5%. All levels are free.
Turkey
Education: Years compulsory--8. Attendance--97.6%. Literacy--86.5%.

Greece
Health: Infant mortality rate-- 6/1,000. Life expectancy--male 77 years, female 82 years.
Turkey
Health: Infant mortality rate--39.4/1,000. Life expectancy--68.5 yrs.


Greece
Economy (2005 est.)
GDP: $225 billion.
Per capita GDP: $20,521
Growth rate: 3.6%.
Inflation rate: 3.5%.
Unemployment rate: 10%.
Natural resources: Bauxite, lignite, magnesite, oil, marble.
Agriculture (8% of GDP): Products--sugar beets, wheat, maize, tomatoes, olives, olive oil, grapes, raisins, wine, oranges, peaches, tobacco, cotton, livestock, dairy products.
Manufacturing (22% of GDP): Types--Processed foods, shoes, textiles, metals, chemicals, electrical equipment, cement, glass, transport equipment, petroleum products, construction, electrical power.
Services (70% of GDP): Transportation, tourism, communications, trade, banking, public administration, defense.
Trade: Exports--$15.2 billion: manufactured goods, food and beverages, petroleum products, cement, chemicals. Major markets--Germany, Italy, France, U.S., U.K. Imports--$52.6 billion: basic manufactures, food and animals, crude oil, chemicals, machinery, transport equipment. Major suppliers--Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Netherlands, U.S.


Turkey
Economy
GDP: (2003) $241.1 billion; (2004) $300.6 billion; (2005) $361.5 billion.
Annual real GDP growth rate: (2003) (+) 5.8%; (2004) (+) 8.9%; (2005) 7.4%
GDP per capita: (2003) $3,412; (2004) $4,187; (2005) $5,016.
Annual inflation rate /CPI: (2003) 18.4%; (2004) 9.3%; (2005) 7.7%.
Natural resources: Coal, chromium, mercury, copper, boron, oil, gold.
Agriculture (11.8% of GNP): Major cash crops--cotton, sugar beets, hazelnuts, wheat, barley, and tobacco. Provides more than 40% of jobs, 6% of exports.
Industry (24.9% of GNP): Major growth sector, types--automotive, electronics, food processing, textiles, basic metals, chemicals, and petrochemicals.
Trade: Exports (merchandise)--(2003) $46.8 billion; (2004) $63.1 billion: textiles and apparel, iron and steel, electronics, tobacco, and motor vehicles. Imports (merchandise)--(2003) $68.7 billion; (2004) $96.5 billion; (2005) $116 billion: petroleum, machinery, motor vehicles, electronics, iron and steel, plastics. Major partners--Germany, U.S., Italy, France, Russian Federation, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, U.K.

 
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Anonymous
(Login NMBS1)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 28 2006, 11:18 PM 

'nuff said

--------------------------------------------

"We do not get involved in aggressive moves, but provocations will receive the proper answer."
- Greek Defence Minister Evangelos Meimarakis



Updated: http://www.putfile.com/nmbs1



 
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(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 12:37 AM 


BLAH BLAH BLAH !
SHUT UP SLAVE !
OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER !

-BLAH BLAH BLAH !=the mongolian spoke again ..
-SHUT UP SLAVE ,OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER =how can u say that in turkish-mongolian?maomaomaoglou

poso m@l@k@s eisai mazi mou asxolise....

 
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Anonymous
(Login burkon)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 12:56 AM 

calm down bro..

 
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(Login stefplak)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 1:00 AM 

i am calm...

poso m@l@k@s eisai mazi mou asxolise....

 
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Leo
(Login ton_pernis)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 3:37 AM 

Otto says

"BLAH BLAH BLAH !
SHUT UP SLAVE !
OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER "


LOL we shaking





All i gotta say is STFP Loser



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Greek School in South Africa




SAHETI is an English medium private school dedicated to providing an excellent modern education, whilst inculcating the ethos and values of Hellenism. These include the right to freedom, equality, democracy and citizenship. We also foster other well known Greek ideals, such as friendship, "philoxenia", "filotimo" and camaraderie.

 
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Grk Master
(Login GrkWebMaster)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 6:06 AM 

"BLAH BLAH BLAH !
SHUT UP SLAVE !
OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER !"


The sign of a weak mind that has given up.


See my Site Greek Military Photos
http://www.greekmilitary.net
Visit http://turkishdenial.com/

 
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ellhn
(Login ellhn)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 3:25 PM 

i ll say it again
Who ever feels mongolian, can go back to UIGURland
The rest share the HELLHNO-global cultural dominant, perception of FREEDOM and TRUTH
In thousands schools all over europe the greek languge is taught as a second official language.
therefor when European tourists visit the Ancient HELLENIC land all over ASIA MINOR they can read the remaing, not destroyed by retarded TURKS, and repeatedly humiliate turkish tour giude claiming that the remnants are from hettites and cruuuup like that. you seem like retards repeatadly to all educated people, WHO RECOGNIZE THAT YOU LIVE ON PURE ANCIENT HELLENIC SOIL
WE ARE THE DOMINANT CULTURE, the CULTURE OF FREEDOM.

 
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(Login salonica)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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June 29 2006, 5:34 PM 


"BLAH BLAH BLAH !
SHUT UP SLAVE !
OBEY YOUR EX-MASTER !"





what else are we gonna read in this forum????

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 2 2006, 4:27 PM 

Greeks polite barbarians killing civilians
They even burned Izmir while running away like pupies , pussies

 
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ekkhn
(Login ellhn)

enough

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July 2 2006, 5:49 PM 

WE ARE THE CORNER STONE OF THE EUROPEAN CILTURE.
WE NEVER KILLED CIVILIANS, EVEN IN TIMES OF GREAT POWER( ALEXANDER, VYZANTINE etc).
OUR ANCESTORS ARE PERICLES, PLATO, ARISTEIDES, SOCRATES and NUMEROUS OTHERS FOUNDERS OF DEMOCRACY and HUMANISM
AND YOU CALL US KILLERS
GO READ A BOOK UNDEREDUCATED STARVING MONGOL UIGURBOY_MONGOLIC REMNANT

 
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Anonymous
(Login EmpireofOttoman)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 2 2006, 8:18 PM 

ALICE IN WONDERLAND !


Swim Dimitri Swim!
Turkos arriving !

 
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(Login helenos)
WAFFer

Genocide....

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July 4 2006, 6:57 AM 

...even the chechens tell us that there was a genocide against the armenians: From the kavkaz center:


"...The Circassian people don't have the lobbying force of Jews or Armenians. Accordingly, the Genocide of the Circassians is almost a forgotten crime against humanity. The Holocaust Industry has quite far succeeded in defining genocide as crimes against Jews, but many people also know about the Genocide of Armenians in Turkey 1915-18. Still, the Circassian Genocide is both proportionally and in absolute numbers much more horrifying than the fate of Armenians some 50 years later..."

They compare it to another genocide...pls read it carefully!

 
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(Login ellhn)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 6 2006, 11:32 AM 

well im not Dimitri
and i can take douzins of mongolic remnants with me before going down
Comprende Uigour_smelly Mongol?

 
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(Login Aegeanfighter)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 6 2006, 12:07 PM 

ellhn:"WE NEVER KILLED CIVILIANS"

Greek propaganda machine force you to believe that.



TURKISH ARMY

"Nightmare Of The Cowards"®



THK video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMeRDVye59E




 
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(Login kinmid)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 6 2006, 12:36 PM 

So much BS in one topic, I feel I have to contribute somehow...

Quote from a diplomat:
"Turkey has no History, it has a Penal Record".

And we are here debating alleged "driving violations" of Greece...



HAVE FUN !!!

 
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(Login minotauro1453)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 6 2006, 12:39 PM 

pssies they even burned izmir when ottomans came after them

-----------------------


 
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ellhn
(Login ellhn)

Re: Greek Atrocities and Massacres of Turks During the Greek Rebellion, 1821-1822

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July 6 2006, 1:10 PM 

Wev never killed civilians when capturing a city
UIGUR_MONGOLCHINOLILE_STARVING:
You wiped out million Christians (ARMENIANS, Greeks, Assyrians etc) from Anatolia
and you dare to accuse us for ethnic cleansing?
YOU suffer from Kwashiorkor (lack of proteins in food-starvation, causing brain degradation......)

 
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