turquality (Login Aegeanfighter) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Admiral Andonis Andonyadis, who acted as the Commander of Greek Naval Forces between 2002-2005, told in his book that, "The international community, and of course Turkey, recognize our air space as 6 miles. We fall into a funny situation while saying 10 miles."
The retired Admiral harshly criticized the "Turkey is a threat" taboo in his book. Referring to his visit to Turkey when he was the Navy commander, Andonyadis said he was for the first time in his life so touched that he would be reduced to tears during his visits.
My favourite part of the Greek admirals confessions:
"After meeting with the Chief of the Turkish General Staff I understood that there were people, who weren't cheap nationalists, that didn't think about the political damage but had serious strategic goals, in charge in the Turkish Armed Forces. When compared to the Greek side, though conditions were different it was breaking our spirit, humiliating for us."
Andonyadis is a weird man, being an atheist as well...
As far as the air and naval space are concerned, my opinion is that the most logic thing for Greece is to extend the sea territory to 10 miles from 6. In this way sea and air space will be equal.
"War is sweet to those who have never experienced it" Pindar
This message has been edited by English_Latinkon on Oct 1, 2008 11:09 AM
turquality (Login Aegeanfighter) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 1 2008, 10:21 AM
"The international community, and of course Turkey, recognize our air space as 6 miles. We fall into a funny situation while saying 10 miles."
im glad to see there are still very few intelligent and well-educated people in Greece.
The little "search" thingy doesn't mean anything to idiots I guess...
This BS topic has been posted in G/T at least twice before some months, maybe a year ago, yet some idiots still insist to post it every now and then.
Funny this BS is also posted in other forums as well at the same time.
Idiots infestation works in the net I guess.
So let's adress it once again...
This issue has been discussed in various other threads in other forums a while back, with Turkish forumers always posting the same material and rhetoric, but reality is a bit different than what they would like it to be.
Let's see if I can just copy-paste the material already posted in other forums as a responce to this...
Greece doesn't consider Athens-FIR as it's national airspace.
Never did, never will. I don't know Turkish, but I do know facts.
Greece identifies inside FIR and over international airspace. It only intercepts when its national airspace is violated as well.
This is totally misinterpreted and out of context, dare I also say fabricated to an extend.
Antoniadis, as well as an other guy acting same way, has the undisputed right to his own mind naturally. This is how democrasy works. What they said was their own personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. He didn't mentioned what articles report, and in what way report it.
What he also said on TV, is that he doesn't know the exact provisions and parameters of the international law, and that his referance was only as far as the specific article of the ICAO provisions for the "state aircraft".
That is as far as he went on his comment regarding the "weak" nature of the Greek policy on the Athens-FIR.
What Antoniadis said and meant are totally different, from what some Turkish forumers and/or the Turkish propaganda sources present.
He actually took the time and explained it on TV. He said he doesn't agree with the identification of Turkish fighters policy of Greece inside Athens-FIR and over international airspace. Not because it isn't legal, but mainly because it creates a number of circumstances and parameters that make our position appear legally weak. He also said that we should raise our limits to 12nm, and then shoot down any and every Turkish aircraft that violates it.
So in fact he suggested to cut the bull... diplomacy and get down to business.
As far as the 10nm national airspace is concerned, since Greece has signed and/or accepted all the relevant international treaties from 1994 and on, then there is really no legal problem. We can actually implement our right to 12nm air/sea national territoty to the extend we feel that we should, and at the time that we feel we should do so. Greece never denied that right on its side, therefore we can actually have a 10nm airspace if we like to.
That doesn't change the fact that it was a legal move back then, and it is even more legal today. That is why Turkey never challenged the action in international institutions in order to resolve it.
The only valid peaceful approach to this issue in terms of the bogus nature of the whole thing, is for Greece to make the limits both at sea and air to 12nm, and case closed. If Turkey wants to challenge that, then by all means it should feel free to enforce the "casus belli". But when it does then the 12nm will automatically be permanently instituted by Greece, and no war or international tribunal will ever be able to change that.
As far as the bogus nature of the 10nm airspace limit comments, everyone is entitled his own personal view, but the facts don't change.
In fact Antoniadis (and others) said the same thing with different words.
Everyone of them said they don't agree with the policy of Greece inside Athens-FIR, and with the 10nm airspace. Not because it isn't legal, but mainly because it creates a number of circumstances and parameters that make our position appear legally weak. They all said that we should raise our limits to 12nm, and then shoot down any and every Turkish aircraft that violates it.
So once again, in fact all of them suggested to cut the bull... diplomacy and get down to business.
Specifically, the term "state aircraft", and the ICAO provisions for them, is actually clear enough and undisputed by all, even by the Greek side.
However, there is another more important term associated with the "state aircraft", which is the "due regard" concerning the flight of such aircraft into the areas of responcibility (FIR) of each country. One of the most important parts the due regard reference, concerns the safety of civil aviation when state aircraft are involved. While the rights of "state aircraft" are crystal clear, the responsibility of the country authorized to control a specific FIR region exceeds anything and everything as far as civil aviation safety is concerned. The "due regard" term makes sure that even the "state aircraft" fall under that specific safety provision.
In simple terms as far as Turkish fighters inside Athens-FIR are conserned?
They don't respect the "due regard" provisions of ICAO, specifically those demanding the constant communication between the "state aircraft" and the FIR controller of the region the "state aircraft" operates in.
Meaning you don't need to file flight plans, but you have to be in contact communication with the FIR controller in your area. The commanding officer of the "state aircraft", must by himself, actually exercise, a temporary flight controller authority for his own "state aircraft", while doing that he must be under direct and constant communication with the FIR controller of the FIR region his aircrafts are operating in.
Turkey fails to do so.
Instead its fighters enter Athens-FIR on daily basis, without filing flight plans (no problem here), but also without being in contact and reporting to the FIR controllers in Athens. Thus the "due regard" element doesn't exist.
ICAO has a series of procedures regarding the overall authority the country responsible a specific FIR region has and can exert in such situations.
In our case Greece has the legal right, and the responsibility, to identify any and all unknown contacts inside the Athens-FIR, in order to secure civil aviation safety. The only way an FIR controller knows what flies is by the flight plan, otherwise by the direct communication of the "state aircraft" pilot or commander as provisioned by the "due regard" procedures.
In any other case, the FIR controller sees an unknown contact roaming inside his FIR region.
Since Turkish fighters never contact the Athens-FIR controller, let alone be in constant communication with it, they are considered (in fact they are) unknown contacts, and they are being identified by Greek fighters.
Taking into consideration that Turkey is the ONLY, I repeat the ONLY, country in the ENTIRE WORLD, that acts in such manner, and that actually uses such EXCUSES, in order to promote its claims.
Taking into account the fact that Turkey hasn't taken its case to any legal authority responsible of dealing with such claims.
Taking into account the lack of actual arguments, and the oversimplified and ridiculus rhetoric, presented in these forums from the Turkish side (which strangely always brings this issue up).
I think we are safe to conclude that those who support the Turkish claims (and I mean the Turks alone) in these forums, are either plain ignorrant, or blindly strong minded, in an issue that the only think left to do is either accept reality, or denny it all together.
Retired armed forces personnel should be banned from writing things of such nature. They do it to make some money, only way for that to happen is to be controversial as this guy has obviously been.
Mind boggling to think this character was in charge of the Navy.
I take it as a compliment that he indirectly suggests that our side is more nationalistic then the Turkish side.
A simple "search" with the term "Antoniadis", and you got your BS thread from 2006 appear.
Enjoy your lack of mental capacity when it comes to simple tasks...
"He actually took the time and explained it on TV. He said he doesn't agree with the identification of Turkish fighters policy of Greece inside Athens-FIR and over international airspace. Not because it isn't legal, but mainly because it creates a number of circumstances and parameters that make our position appear legally weak. He also said that we should raise our limits to 12nm, and then shoot down any and every Turkish aircraft that violates it.
So in fact he suggested to cut the bull... diplomacy and get down to business"
Thats more like it, i jumped to conclusions, thought there would be more to it then our turkish friends posted.
"He also said that we should raise our limits to 12nm, and then shoot down any and every Turkish aircraft that violates it.
So in fact he suggested to cut the bull... diplomacy and get down to business"
Admiral Andonis Andonyadis, who acted as the Commander of Greek Naval Forces between 2002-2005
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That was a short stint as the commander of the Greek N.F....must of been an incompetent 1!!
Learn to read and see if this "idiot" thingy besides a nick name is actually representative of one of us true nature...
This topic is old news and not the kind of it that the idiots who posted it (back then and today) are hopping for it.
Simply said it's too hard for you to understand you're selfowning yourselves with it...
HAVE FUN !!!
This message has been edited by kinmid on Oct 1, 2008 10:34 AM
Not at all moron...
The one ignoring both reality and military issues all together (being an idiot and an ignorant) is actually you.
I just posted additional FACTS about his opinion, so everyone with a functioning brain (this excludes you) can read them too!
he says :"The international community, and of course Turkey, recognize our air space as 6 miles. We fall into a funny situation while saying 10 miles."
and you are still talking about the FACTS lol..as i said before you need psychological help urgently.
Turquality posted a valid link backing his post, on the other hand you posted jack. So far your making an idiot out of yourself by continuing to defend your evidenceless claims.
to be honest i dont know this issue very well and i didnt read the so called "admission" of the Greek admiral
i just have the sense and the personal opinion that being a pragmatist the admiral fully understood certain realities, those realities are that its a different thing to have the legal right to do something than doing it in practice when you may face certain complexities with your neighbor, especially Turkey which has been a bad neighbor all those years to Greece and uses its military force to threaten her neighbors with casus belli and all this bull****
so what would you like to do with what you can really do in reality has a huge difference.
ODYSSEUS KILLING THE SUITORS
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Oct 1, 2008 11:37 AM
"Referring to his visit to Turkey when he was the Navy commander, Andonyadis said he was for the first time in his life so touched that he would be reduced to tears during his visits."
so touching, thats why i dont visit Turkey because i may understand certain realities about Greece and burst into tears, in fact i feel that i want to cry right now
Old news from 2006 moron... including the Greek TV-show I mentioned.
I don't keep record of every single BS you idiots posted a decade ago, as to provide you idiots a proof? I do have a life contrary to most of you morons.
Besides you idiots aren't the audience my post adresses, but rather the thinking ones who can and will make up their own minds about this issue, as they did back in 2006 when this BS was posted.
Other than that you can OWN me for not providing you the proof you seek, as if it would make your brain (not) spin a while and figure it out...
And besides that don't forget another FACT.
It's a personal opinion of a former officer of the HN at the end of the day, which still doesn't change other FACTS i posted in my initial responce, or the FACT that the creator of the thread is an idiot.
In terms of state policy I am also of the opinion that Greece should halt all Athens FIR interceptions in international airspace. What we should do is extend our territorial and air boundaries to 12NM and as Kinmid said simply shoot down any aircraft that is in violation of our airspace. It's plain and simple. And if the Turks want to go to war with us, let them go to war.
Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society
Aristotle
G/T unity (Login JeuneTurk) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 1 2008, 4:32 PM
Quote:
In terms of state policy I am also of the opinion that Greece should halt all Athens FIR interceptions in international airspace. What we should do is extend our territorial and air boundaries to 12NM and as Kinmid said simply shoot down any aircraft that is in violation of our airspace. It's plain and simple. And if the Turks want to go to war with us, let them go to war.
I gues multiple ownages in the past wasnt enough to teach the greeks. If tiny little greece had the power to extend its boundries it wouldnt hesitate to do so. But you cant, coz we have a whole army facing you guys ready to annihilate greeks everywhere everytime and your politicians are aware of it.
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This message has been edited by JeuneTurk on Oct 1, 2008 4:39 PM
I gues multiple ownages in the past wasnt enough to teach the greeks. If tiny little greece had the power to extend its boundries it wouldnt hesitate to do so. But you cant, coz we have a whole army facing you guys ready to annihilate greeks everywhere everytime.
okay so you want to play the defensive or the conquerors then??? im twisted of the turkish logic- so you wait until greece makes the first step BUT YOU GUYS SCREEM OUT WE ARE CONQUERORS lol make no sense-
" gues multiple ownages in the past wasnt enough to teach the greeks. If tiny little greece had the power to extend its boundries it wouldnt hesitate to do so. But you cant, coz we have a whole army facing you guys ready to annihilate greeks everywhere everytime and your politicians are aware of it. "
Are you talking about this "ownage"?
Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society
Aristotle
I actually demand Greece declare 12nm. Lets see some of our toys in action why not?? They are not built for exhibitions.
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thats a real conqeror come do it conquerors come-
He also said that if we have attacked first we would suffer minnor cassualties while the TN would suffer great loses!
Let's see how many Turkish forumers think his personal opinion on that was also a great reality!
kallimachos always the same sh!t you guys are very funny and very foolish
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G/T unity (Login Yildiray) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 1 2008, 9:19 PM
Due to Kallidiotos Greek navy owned us at Kardak crisis. However same navy chairman Admiral Lymberis tendered his resignation after that crisis.
I can not imagine all greek army officials situation if we were owned them...
Every time I visited Turdgay it made me want to crap and not stop. As we called it in the military I suffered from Attaturks revenge and spent much of my trip on the toilet. maybe the admiral had that and it made him cry to. SO dirty you just could not help getting sick
Quote:Every time I visited Turdgay it made me want to crap and not stop. As we called it in the military I suffered from Attaturks revenge and spent much of my trip on the toilet
then why dont you take that d1ck out of your fvking ass fag due to the extreme ass drilling you suffered your ass became wide so ur system cannot keep ur sh1t in ur body it keeps dripping out you need to find a plug for that sh1t. so its nothin to do with turks. ASS-os roflmao you make me sick
ba2 as i have participated in this thread i cant warn you however another Moderator will issue a warning to you for the above insult.
Cut it out.
G/T unity (Login Yildiray) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 2 2008, 6:49 AM
Quote: Every time I visited Turdgay it made me want to crap and not stop. As we called it in the military I suffered from Attaturks revenge and spent much of my trip on the toilet. maybe the admiral had that and it made him cry to. SO dirty you just could not help getting sick
Good example to see grade of these idiots when you fling facts to their face. Essentially all greeks in that forum acknowledge the facts and thats the root cause of their complex. Anyway, they are still our little hellions. Problem is only we would not teach manners them for last a few ten years.
"I take it as a compliment that he indirectly suggests that our side is more nationalistic then the Turkish side."
That is a strong proof of your ignorance level. We are the nation almost wiped you out from the maps and kept you under carpet for more than 500 years... Better not to test our nationalistic emotions.
Instead you should be saying you are ashamed of your admiral leading your navy.
page: 10
THE MEDIA: On the Official State Ideology's Service
Foreigners passing through Turkey or observers critical of certain political aspects of the country, are often shocked by the ultra-nationalist and militarist content of the principle Turkish media and the virulence of the press campaigns they orchestrate. At the same time they notice that certain media don't hesitate to criticise on or other of the Ministers or even the Prime Minister. To understand the Turkish system one must bear in mind that, apart from some publications of the Left or islamic opposition, the principle Turkish media are at the disposal of the State and its official nationalist ideology (Ataturkism).
The political police (MIT) and the General Staff, who have a whole network of influential "honourable correspondents" constantly keep watch over what they consider "the superior interests of the State" and launch orchestrated press campaigns against "the internal and external enemies of the country". Amongst the more famous victims of their campaigns: Nelson Mandela, "guilty" of having refused an Ataturk Peace Prize, which seemed to him rather out of place in a country that was martyrising its Kurdish population; Mrs Mitterrand, Senator Kennedy, the German Social-Democratic Party leader R. Scharping etc... Their network covering the media is sufficiently subtle to allow each paper to have some liberal editorial writers who criticise official policy from the standpoint of another idea of "patriotism". Those who cross the thin red line(criticism of Ataturk or of nationalism, defense of the Kurds) are promptly sacked, like Koray Diizgoren from Hurriyet, Ahmet Altan from Milliyet or Ismet Imset of the Turkish Daily News often following a simple phone call from an official of the Joint Forces General Staff.
Concentration of ownership also helps ensure a more efficient control of the media. Two groups share the bulk of the market. The Dogan Group, with the two mass circulation dailies Hurriyet and Milliyet, each of which has its own television network, and the Ding Group whose main standard bearers are the two dailies Sabah and Yeni Yuzyil as well as the ATV television network. The industrialists who control these two groups also have large interests in sectors which depend heavily on State and Army contracts. The General Staff, also regularly calls the Managing Directors of the newspapers and television stations for "briefings" in which they are told how to treat matters affecting national interests and defense. It is, for example, "inadvisable" to publish anything on "events in the South-East" (Kurdistan) apart from official Army communiques.
Finally, by a very generous policy of subsidies and loans on advantageous terms, the Government has been able to ensure the support of these media and their huge audience. The police and the courts can be left to stifle the few dissident voices, like the pro-Kurdish Ozgur Grundem, which was banned after the assassination of ten of its journalists and the blowing up of its premises by the police.
Despite the diversity of papers, publications, radios and televisions, those that really form public opinion are, with a few rare exceptions at the disposal of the State, its security organs and its official ideology. The "organs" only have to whistle and this powerful brain-washing machine gets under way to denigrate or vilify any opponent judged too iconoclastic, or to present as an enemy of the Turkish nation any foreign personality who dares to criticise excess of the Turkish Army or Courts or express a wish for an improvement in the fate of the Kurds in Turkey.
Why do all countries with the Star and Crescent, have no freedom of speech, no free press, and fanatic media that peddle lies and conspiracy theories?
While the Turkish Military and the Government preparing for military action towards the Northern Iraq, on the other hand they have increased the pressure on any civilians and organisations which believe the question should be solved peacefully and through dialogue rather than violent or military actions. Its almost came to an attention that anyone declaring against the Government and Turkish Military Forces has became target or criminalised.
The censorship upon opposition media groups should also be handled within this context. Censorship has taken practice without overlapping with any practices of law. Newspapers and their publications are closing down one after another, people left out of freedom of receiving news.
...
Between the dates of 4th August 2006 and 25th May 2008, 14 newspaper has been stopped 33 times. The peak times were March 2007, October 2007 and November 2007. In March 2007 4 newspapers was closed, 3 newspapers in October 2007, 4 newspapers in November 2007. In addition the Alternatif newspaper which started its publication in 19th May 2005 has stopped for 1 month on 25th May 2005 and the Gelecek newspaper which started publication 28 May has stopped for 1 month in 30th June. This situation shows clearly the current state of censorship and anti-democratic practices level.
...
And these Kemalist monsters are calling Greeks as liars and saying they know what our Admiral Antonis said(in Greek) and through the selective translation of their media staffed by professional Sunni muslim liars, better than us.
Greece needs to stop playing games with Turkey. It is well known to anyone who searches what kind of country Turkey is. Turkey keeps making claims and trying to support them through lies. The Greek government needs to hire Public Relations to destroy the image of Turkey abroad, so any claim this rotten country is making against Greece does not matter.
Weekly Nokta discloses an internal army report which classifies media outlets as "trustworthy" or "precarious" and bases the General Staff's accreditation process accordingly. 53-page report evaluates individual journalists as "pro-army" or not.
ISTANBUL / 8 March 2007
Weekly news magazine Nokta's recent issue discloses a series of army reports which examine and classify media outlets and journalists as "pro-Turkish Army" or "con-Turkish army".
Ahmet Sik's article shows how army officials use the accreditation process based on "journalists' approach to armed forces". Reports include statistics regarding number of published articles dubbed as "positive" or "negative" and journalists as "trustworthy" or "precarious".
...
Accreditation is defined as follows:
"In light of the examination which classify media outlets as trustworthy or precarious made with regard to the Turkish Armed Forces' (TSK) indispensable principles, a list of accreditation including those trustworthy is compiled".
(...)
"Participation of media outlets with low levels of trust in events organized by the TSK has been limited and those deemed as trustworthy have been encouraged".
(...)
"By not accrediting precarious media outlets, their reputation in public's eye has been attenuated".
(...)
"Despite counter interpretations, the accreditation process serves as an examination of media outlets' trustworthiness by the TSK".
Following those explanations, the report includes the following examinations about listed media outlets:
* Posta, Hürriyet, Milliyet, Referans, Gözcü, Sabah, Ortadogu, Yeniçag, The New Anatolian, Dünya, Türkiye, Cumhuriyet, Aksam and Vatan newspapers; TRT, BRT-K, ART, CINE 5, EY TV, EXPO Channel TV, NTV CNBC-E, ATV, TV 8, Show TV, Flash TV, CNN Türk, Kanal D, Star television stations; Ihlas News Agency, Dogan News Agency, Anatolian News Agency, ANKA Agency, Turkish News Agency; ASAM (Strategical Analysis), Defense Airforce Magazine, Tempo, Müdafaa-i Hukuk, Defense News and given its re-publishing Nokta Magazine's accreditations to be renewed.
* Daily Radikal newspaper: Although its accreditation to be renewed, four of its commentators to be banned from TSK events.
* Daily Takvim newspaper: Although its accreditation to be renewed, commentators opposing the TSK to be banned from TSK events.
* Daily H.O. Tercüman newspaper: Regarding the restructuring of the newspaper, it should be monitored for a while and a decision to be reached accordingly.
* SKY Türk television: Although its accreditation to be renewed, commentators opposing the TSK to be banned from TSK events.
* Daily Star newspaper: Regarding the restructuring of the newspaper, it should be monitored for a while and its accreditation to be on hold for a while.
* Jane's Defense Weekly Magazine: Magazine's accreditation to be renewed, its representative in Turkey to be banned from TSK events.
* News Coorparation (TGRT): Regarding the restructuring of the newspaper, it should be monitored for a while and a decision to be reached accordingly.
* Haber Türk TV: Although its accreditation to be renewed, commentators opposing the TSK (two names are specified) to be banned from TSK events.
* Kanal Türk TV: To be monitored for a while, and its owner to be banned from TSK events.
"Martyrs" shouldn't be called "dead"
In between the 53-page reports, there's a "Memorandum on the Concept of Martyrs". It expresses the concerns regarding the discussions around the concept of "martyrdom" and lists some cautions to be taken to avoid further discussion.
* Regarding false and partial news pieces, disclaimers can be sent to owners of such media outlets and remind them of media's responsibilities regarding the fight against terrorism.
* A strong counter informative over the Internet can diminish the effectiveness of such articles.
* Thorough meetings and corrective informative with selected journalists, security forces' expectations can be clearly explained and positive results would be achieved.
Note: Abstaining from revealing them as targets from nationalist and pro-army circles, bianet keeps the names of individual journalists who featured on General Staff's reports unpublished.
I recently decided to become a Turkish citizen, having being dissapointed by the Greek foreign policy and political situation i finally realized my mistake to support the Greek side, from now on i will be called Mahmud-Odysseus , I will become a Muslim and i will join the Turkish group
Ba2 You show how intelligent you are by the reply or comeback that you post. It seems that your repressed homosexual tendencies come out when you get worked up. You must be very to annaly fixated to ass and dick if thats all you can reply with. I can apologigize for the comment that I spent my trip on the toilet. I visited Turkgay 2o years ago and got very sick from the filth around me and the water I drank. The food though was great as was the service. EPhesos was excellent, of course it was an ancient Greek city and had nothing to do with Turkey.Kushadasi was okay too. Except for the object poverty, poeple lived in mud huts 500 meters from the waterfront.Again I hope 20 years later things changed. So maybe it's cleaner today and I will not get sick if i visit this time.
G/T unity (Login emperor-attila) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 2 2008, 5:36 PM
First of all he is an atheist..not fukking fundementalist ortodox scumbag...
He is clever than most of gayreeks currently live outside of hellASS ...
Briefly he says Turks are not great treat as much as told...Turkiye treat is exegrated and inflated by ultra right wing ortodox shttbags...
Also he was a top commander of navy.But outsider gayreeks cant know reality better than him...
Opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. This retired Admiral has his, lots of more qualified folks have theirs.
NirvanaBlue (Login NirvanaBlue) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Sincere admission of Greek admiral
October 4 2008, 10:48 AM
"The little "search" thingy doesn't mean anything to idiots I guess..."
Who the f*ck basically says "I dont care if you havent seen this news before and the fact that its from TODAY's newspaper is irrelevant to me, you should've searched waff to make sure that I hadnt replied to it with my copy and paste sh*t that no one reads"
kinmid, you f*cking douchebag.
Why dont we just search waff up and down before we post any thread just to make sure we were exposed to your dribble before hand, you f*cking idiot.
turkish Conqu-ERRORS
you guys are very funny and very foolish 
