Quote: F-35 Air Combat Skills Analyzed Mar 5, 2009 By Andy Nativi The F-35s ability to win an air-to-air engagement is drawing increased attention as the U.S. military and industrys focus includes expanding the Joint Strike Fighters customer base beyond the core purchasing nations. For years, prime contractor Lockheed Martin seemed content to promote the F-35s strike fighter capabilities, if only to avoid competing against its other major fighter program, the F-22 Raptor. But with the F-22 not exportable, Lockheed Martin seems keen to talk up the F-35s air combat skills to bolster its chances for new foreign military salesnamely, to Japan, Turkey and Greece. The contractor tells Aviation Week that the JSFs combination of stealth, multisensor situational awareness, advanced pilot-machine interface and basic aeromechanical performance make it a credible fighter aircraft, too. That is key to several other customers, who cannot afford the so-called high-low fighter mix on which the U.S., U.K. and Italian air forces are planning. But Lockheed Martin is focusing largely on the beyond-visual-range fight, with ranges greater than 18 naut. mi. that executives say will represent 62% of all aerial combat. Another 31% of engagements would fall into the 8-18-naut.-mi. transition range, and just 7% of fighting would be close-in combat where the airframe is stressed the most. Lockheed Martin says it ran the F-35 through the Pentagons TAC Brawler simulation for air combat systems analysis, using what would be the ideal air combat configuration, taking the conventional-takeoff-and-landing F-35A, the only model designed to perform full 9g maneuvers. The aircraft can also reach a 55-deg. angle of attack in trimmed flight, while most fighters, excluding the F/A-18, are limited to 30 deg. The exact performance of the current F-35A configurationalso known as the 240-4are classified. But a similar earlier standard (240-3) was credited with a maximum speed of Mach 1.67; acceleration from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 at 30,000 ft. in 61 sec.; a top turning speed of 370 kt. at 9g and 15,000 ft.; and a sustained turn capability of 4.95g at Mach 0.8 and 15,000 ft. Moreover, an aircraft with those performance figures would carry two beyond-visual-range AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (Amraams) in the internal weapons bay. Yet, such performance numbers appear to leave the F-35 short of the kind of air-to-air capabilities provided by other combat aircraft, such as the Russian Su-30MKI or the European Typhoon. And even Lockheed Martin test pilots concede that the F-35although offering very high initial acceleration due to its powerful 42,000-lb.-thrust F135 enginecould start losing advantage at higher speed and altitude. This might be partly due to the aircrafts large frontal area, which is designed to allow internal weapons carriagemeaning in a traditional quick-reaction intercept role, the F-35 may not be able to match rivals. Nevertheless, Brawler modeling showed the F-35 could achieve a loss-exchange ratio better than 400% against its nearest competitor, according to Lockheed Martin executives. They demur about naming the competitor, but their comparison charts indicate it is the Sukhoi Su-30 or Typhoon. That engagement ratio comes from the combination of F-35 characteristics, executives argue, including stealth, the performance of the APG-81 active electronically scanned array radar, sensor fusion using data links and the 360-deg. situational awareness afforded by the distributed aperture system of infrared and electro-optical sensors and electronic support measures. In the meantime, and without discussing specific performance characteristics, Italian air force fighter pilots involved with the F-35 program tell Aviation Week that the aircrafts performance falls between the F-16 and the F/A-18 in terms of flight envelopeand is actually closer to the F/A-18, considering its high angle of attack and slow-speed maneuvering capabilities. The F-35A, with an air-to-air mission takeoff weight of 49,540 lb., has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.85 and a wing loading of 110 lb. per sq. ft.not ideal for a dog-fighter. The F135 engine delivers 42,000 lb. thrust, and industry officials suggest that an F-35 entering an air-to-air engagement with 40%or more than 7,275 lb.of internal fuel will have a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.09 and a wing loading of 83 lb. per sq. ft. Those figures describe an agile, albeit not top-end, fighter. Still, one key feature, Lockheed Martin executives stress, is the very low observability designed into the JSF. Whereas the F-35 would carry its weapons internally, the Typhoon, Su-30, Saab Gripen or Dassault Rafale carry their missiles externally, thus increasing their radar signatures and degrading their on-paper air-to-air performance. The F-35 also accommodates more internal fuel, 8.3 tons, giving it greater endurance potential without external fuel tanks that would affect radar signatures. Nevertheless, the F-35 may have notable weaknesses for pure air-to-air combat. For one, it is not designed to conduct engagements in a high-speed, high-altitude, sustained turning environment. Its high-speed cornering capability should help it to dodge an adversarys beyond-visual-range missiles, though, particularly if German and U.K. air-to-air simulations on the kill probability of modern medium-range air-to-air missiles are accurate. Those figures are part of the rationale for countries pursuing the ramjet-powered MBDA Meteor missile to supplant Amraams. Yet even in the Amraam world, Typhoons may have an edge over the F-35, since they could launch the missile at higher speed. Sukhoi Su-30s and the future T-50 are also being designed to maximize air-to-air missile performance that way. Finally, while Lockheed Martin touts F-35 stealth as an advantage, it has its drawbacks, as well. The aircrafts payload is limited as long as it wants to preserve its low-observable signature through internal carriage. That means having only four AIM-120s at its disposal. A study now underway could boost that total to six Amraams. Other weapons, including infrared-guided air-to-air missiles, would be carried externally, with plans for a stealthy JSF adaptation using a low-signature pylon design. Still, the radar signature would increase, as would drag, further reducing the F-35s potential. It is not clear how critical such perceived shortcomings truly are. Some pilots argue that in a dogfight, the air-to-air missile has more to do with the engagements outcome than does the aircraft.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/

F35 has big plusses but also some minors. The big plus is in BVR and minor in the dogfights like our Greek friends argue.

However future combat engagements represent:
62% BVR
31% of engagements falling into the 8-18-naut.-mi. transition range
7% close-in combat (dogfight)

To make it more attractive to Greeks, in ideal circumstances 10% of the combats to be dogfights with 100% Greek victory would still translate in 10:1 victory of TAF vs HAF





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Turkiye Turklerindir

And what are you going to use to throw at HAF... peanuts?

Homoraam!

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Turkiye Turklerindir

Other exiting news comes from our Korean friends:

Quote: S. Korea Eyes Fighter Jet for Landing Ship F-35B fighter jet By Jung Sung-ki Staff Reporter South Korea is looking at introducing the U.S. Lockheed Martin-built F-35B fighter variant, to fly from its 14,000-ton Dokdo large-deck landing ship, along with the F-35A air force version, as part of mid- and long-term force improvement plans, a source here said Sunday. The move comes as the country's arms procurement agency, Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), is preparing to open the third-phase F-X fighter acquisition program in the coming years, he said. DAPA said earlier that it would launch the next-phase F-X bid by 2011, with the aim of deploying the planes between 2014 and 2019. In a related event, a group of Pentagon officials gave a briefing on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program to DAPA officials in Seoul early last month at the request of the arms agency, said the source. ``The agency is conducting preliminary research on the next-phase fighter acquisition program and collecting information about foreign fighters, including the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter,'' the source told The Korea Times on condition of anonymity. As for the JSF, which is under development, he said, the agency previously focused on the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant for the Air Force but is now thinking also about the F-35B short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) variant for the Marine Corps or Navy. There will be another variant for the Navy, the F-35C, to fly from aircraft carriers. Japan, Israel and Taiwan are reportedly interested in the F-35B version. ``The F-35B is a fifth generation fighter that will provide a quantum leap in capability, basing flexibility, and mission execution across the full spectrum of conflict,'' a U.S. Marine Corps official said, asking not to be named. South Korea's Navy launched its first Dokdo Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH 6111) in 2005 and wants to have one more Dokdo-class carriers by 2016. The 199-meter-long, 31-meter-wide vessel is the largest helicopter transporter in Asia and will serve as a light aircraft carrier to orchestrate the Korean Navy's future strategic mobile squadron. Experts have said when the landing ship is equipped with a ski jump module, vertical or short takeoff and landing aircraft such as the Harrier or the F-35B will be able to be launched from the deck. Observers say the latest move appears to reflect Seoul's strong interest in the JSF, also known as Lightening II, as a candidate for the upcoming F-X deal, for which Boeing's F-15K NF III, Saab's Gripen NG, Eurofighter's Typhoon and others are also expected to compete. The F-X aims to equip the South Korean Air Force with 120 advanced high-end fighters by 2020 to replace its aging fighter fleet. The U.S. Boeing Company won South Korean orders for batches of 40 and 21 F-15s in two previous deals. Lockheed's F-22 Raptor is also on the list of candidates, but chances for Seoul to buy the fifth-generation stealth fighter are slim due to financial and legal problems. U.S. technology protection law forbids the export of the world's most advanced F-22s, whose per-unit cost is some $200 million. In that context, the F-35, with similar capabilities to those of the F-22, has often referred to as a viable candidate. The fifth-generation F-35, fitted with radar-evading stealth technology, is a single-seat, single-engine multi-role fighter jet that can perform close air support, tactical bombing and air defense missions. The price tag for the F-35A is about $60 million, while those for the F-35B and F-35C are expected to cost in the upper $80 to $90 million range, respectively, according to Lockheed Martin officials. The F-35B version is slated to enter service first with the U.S. Marines in 2012, followed by the F-35A in 2013 and the F-35C in 2015. The JSF development is being funded by nine major partners, the United States, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Italy, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark. The partners plan to acquire over 3,100 F-35s through 2035, according to reports. Lockheed officials say delivery of the conventional-takeoff-and-landing F-35A for South Korea would begin in 2014 if a contract is signed before 2010. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/03/205_40483.html

The Turkish LPD should definitely be a Dokdo class or similar!!!

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Turkiye Turklerindir

You mean Swim dimitri swim

Swim Dimitri swim is when they meet TF2000

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Turkiye Turklerindir

But what if they crash into the Aegean, ahhh never mind...

Fish food for sure ! got ya

"Yet, such performance numbers appear to leave the F-35 short of the kind of air-to-air capabilities provided by other combat aircraft, such as the Russian Su-30MKI or the European Typhoon. And even Lockheed Martin test pilots concede that the F-35although offering very high initial acceleration due to its powerful 42,000-lb.-thrust F135 enginecould start losing advantage at higher speed and altitude. This might be partly due to the aircrafts large frontal area, which is designed to allow internal weapons carriagemeaning in a traditional quick-reaction intercept role, the F-35 may not be able to match rivals. "

self explanatory


"Still, one key feature, Lockheed Martin executives stress, is the very low observability designed into the JSF. Whereas the F-35 would carry its weapons internally, the Typhoon, Su-30, Saab Gripen or Dassault Rafale carry their missiles externally, thus increasing their radar signatures and degrading their on-paper air-to-air performance. The F-35 also accommodates more internal fuel, 8.3 tons, giving it greater endurance potential without external fuel tanks that would affect radar signatures. "

all the above mentioned rivals carry IRST systems...F-35 powerful engine is a beacon in the sky waiting to be seen.

"In the meantime, and without discussing specific performance characteristics, Italian air force fighter pilots involved with the F-35 program tell Aviation Week that the aircrafts performance falls between the F-16 and the F/A-18 in terms of flight envelopeand is actually closer to the F/A-18, considering its high angle of attack and slow-speed maneuvering capabilities."

so the 5th generation fighter actually fights like a 3rd generation fighter...need i remind everyone the utter ownage/rape of the USN F-18's by Rafales in WVR battle?

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

They still have to answer what will they use against HAF for BV engagements....
Maybe they think that by switching ON their radars, enemy planes will be destroyed?

Homoraam!


--------------------

nutsak

i got to give it to you...you have such arrogance, or maybe systematic stupidity....that even though you are humor challenged you keep trying....

so you must be so popular with nutsak junior? after all you look like his favorite teletubbies....

im guessing your Lala, the yellow one.... although she is taller, the resemblance is staggering...lol

nutuk posted an article and underlined 10 lines hoping we wouldn't read the rest of it...typical tellak technique used in turkgay where tellaks are easily manipulated due to their lack of education and intelligence.

--------------------------------------------


Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."

S-300 has BVR
Patriot has BVR
f16's,mirages,f4ace's have BVR

Since you havent got f-35's yet i'll include ef and rafale have BVR.


your basically saying f35 has bvr and the haf will be at a disadvantage yet you neglect to discuss
the reality that the f-35 has certain deficiencies for the A2A role.

1.f35 is primarily a ground attack deseign.
2.the internal hold for AAM is a slight disadvantage in A2A
3.what level of sophistication will the turkish model be
4.how well can the f-35 stealth feature cope with cv-300 radars greece has

making bold statements is no different than what the marketing team does to sell its wares
but once in service its a whole different ball game.

5th generation is specially configured around stealth and BVR. The Greek romantic dreams of real battle environments with dogfights you will only see in Hollywood films!

And yeah a dream come true would be to see our F35's to face Greek Rafale's but I'm afraid you guys go for the EF2000 which is still 5th gen. vs 4th gen.

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Turkiye Turklerindir

P.S

is the f-35's stealth ability degraded by enemy awacs like erieye??

the only true 5TH generation fighter is the f22 unless you want to label it as a 6th
generation fighter.

this "generation"labelling system is very misleading as it alledgedly denotes a superiority in performance over aircraft of its peers.its however a brilliant marketing ploy thats swallowed by the military un initiated.

Quote: P.S is the f-35's stealth ability degraded by enemy awacs like erieye??

You Greeks come everytime back with the same ridiculous question.

Stealth doesn't mean invisible but reduced visibility on radar! And yes since the Ericsson Erieye radar is also a radar it will also have a reduced detection. Suppose Erieye can detect the F16 at 350km, it can detect an F35 at 150km or even less! You think you've a total radar coverage of the Aegean but in reality you have not!



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Turkiye Turklerindir

Nutuk,you do know that airborne radars have a higher performance and are less susceptible to
background clutter and jamming dont you?

you do know also that awacs closes the detection range gap dont you?

you do know that awacs also has ecm,eccm,and esm dont you?

Delusions and childish responses by turks....

Lets say that your BVR missile is the AMRAAM, you have to bring your fighter to a standoff range to shoot at the enemy. Now you have 2 choices:

1. mount the AMRAAM on external pylons in order its seeker can acquire the target , yet you lose all stealthy advantages due to the fact that you have external payload.

2. use the AMRAAM from the internal bomb-bay in order to keep your stealthy profile as minimum as possible then launch the missile. Now there rises the problem. The missile can be guided first phase by the plane's radar and all target data relayed to the missile via link and only at the final stages of target approach, the missile uses the onboard seeker.
That means that the carrier plane has to turn on its radar and "illuminate" for a period of time the target in order to relay that data... which means Bye Bye stealth.....

3. use the AMRAAM from the internal bomb-bay in order to keep your stealthy profile as minimum as possible then launch the missile.Launch the missile and let another "source" illuminate your target (airborne radar maybe). But this is completely theoretical as it has never happened and would expose the airborne radar carrier to a risk.


p.s.: Stealth does NOT mean invisible...

Yes, so?

But I suppose you know that long range detection occurs with long waves (low frequency radar band) which unfortunately brings lower resolution and thus influenced by small RCS of stealth!

How much you like to believe in the ultimate radar they don't exist! Every radar is influenced by lower RCS.

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Turkiye Turklerindir

as i said ,the internal hold for A2A munitions is a disadvantage.
ask your f102 pilots when they went up against haf f5's

"...Yes, so?..."

So you lose the "stealthy" advantage once in A2A mode....

A2G is more "quiet" and efficient for this kind of aircraft.... approach, deliver (and be detected), evade...

why all greeks are charlatans here

turkish f35s ll be the most advanced version and in future all electronics ll be changed by turkish ones.

Not quite since the stealth aircraft is in advantage when approaching the enemy fighter and shoot of the first missile.

How many cool headed pilots are there who can cope with an enemy aircraft and at the same time with an incoming missile? Reduction of situational awareness due to limited detection will push the enemy into run mode since he doesnt know how many F35s he is facing.


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Turkiye Turklerindir

LOL

Let this midget troll believe in super duper export version of bomb truck which even full USAF version F-35 will have F-22 protection which will try to destroy most important IADS of enemy which are to heavy threat for bomb truck,lol.



Btw,read this,lol:

"It is believed that between 10 to 30% of the number of purchased aircraft will be cut. This could lead to yet another increase in unitary price for the JSF program. The fly-away price could rise to $110 million, about the price of the less capable foruth generation Dassault Rafale."

http://www.f16.net/news_article32095.html

110mio $!!!
And this is fly away price,means full price will reach some 170-200mio$.
Sure -10% economy of turcos can effort 2 of them every year,lol.

even 200 mil per craft no problem for turkey.

turkey ll acquire first 116 then in future we can order another 100 next generation turkish versions.

LOL

Sure.
Turco peasant THK has no money for AIM120 and APG-68(V9) for CCIP but you will find 20 billion $ (lol) in middle of worse crisis than in 2001.

Funny how the delusional Greek conforts himself:
Turkey will get strongly downgraded F35 export version - Greece will get strongly upgraded EF2000V3



Keep selfmasturbating your minds!

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Turkiye Turklerindir

Yes Yes.... the T-35 Indigenous turkish aircraft....

LOL... we will have major laughs when the first f35 try to sneak over the Aegean only to find their tails OWNED by 4th generation aircraft (why bother sending our new acquisitions we will have at that time...)

Then come back in here and try to find new excuses....
or will you start talking about your 2040-50 double-stealth proctonic multilaser indigenous spaceships?

LOL

Sure 50% islamist country will get same special version like USAF,UK and IDF/AF,lol.
And ofcourse for same price as F-16-50+.


How moron one an be?

turkey always gets best.
best tank altay
best submarine u214tn
best attack heli t129 with best missiles cirit and umtas
best rifle mehmetcikk

off i am tired to write there are many best upcoming stay tunned.

bizde para cok malaka

Yo'r right Gayyanis

Only Greeks get the best of the best.
Tanks with cracks
submarines that tumble around
attack helicopters which need 2 years of recheck until they fly


I am sure the French will supply you Rafales with warp technology

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Turkiye Turklerindir

all of the french products are junks.

better buy from russians but their bmps already burning in their parades.

eryx,mirage,leclerc,ceaser these are very good reason to not buy from france

LOL

@nutroll

All Leo2HEL in service.


AH-64DHA in service.


U214 will be recieved till end of this month.


MESA yok
APG-68 yok
AIM120 yok

And lets see if you find rest 1.5 billion to recieve your 117xCCIP and 30 new F-16,lol.

as we speak about future, how will you react against 40-60 greek EF-2000s and 80 greek F-35s??

even they cant buy for dm63 shells

u talk about war planes

where is the bmp3hel

where is eurofighter since 2000 since 9 years i am in this forum

since 9 years everyday greece order typhoon.

where is this ****ing typhoon?

Quote: as we speak about future, how do you react against 40-60 greek EF-2000s and 80 greek F-35s??

My reaction would be: wise decission! But frankly I do not believe in such possibility.


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Turkiye Turklerindir

LOL

Funny gypsies.

Where is EF2000?

Moron,HAF recieved 105 new fighters worth 6 billion euros since 2000.


HAF does not want 40xEF2000 without AESA and METEOR.
This is reason we bought 105 new F-16-52+ and M-2000-5mk which are NOW nightmare for THK.
HAF asked for this.

What a load of bullsh!t.

L-L commercials mates, no less.


Thunder Supports

Don't forget, Dennis never lost even one competition.

And at the end of the day, Merkel's blackmails will have a positive for EADS result...

if they are nightmare for tuaf

so i wanna ask u a question

why everyday u see a turkish jets flying over ur ****ing head while u are at ur balcony?

@erol

how old are you?

War is just an instant decision usually made either by crazy or desicive personalities.

And it's also sweet to those who have never taste it...

i am 25 years old.

there are too much charlatans and trolls here.i am tired.so i ll speak as they speak anymore

@Erol
Logical thoughts never lose against stupidity although Einstein said that stupidity is invicible.

"...since 2000 since 9 years i am in this forum ..."

Was there a WAFF forum in 2000?



"...why everyday u see a turkish jets flying over ur ****ing head while u are at ur balcony?..."

They dont... tuaf is made of monkeys flying only over Greek island that are within range of turkish artillery ... thats only 5 miles off the turkish coast....
Talk about pus$$ies here... not to mention that when they see the usual 2 HAF interceptors they RUUUUUNNNN back East to safety...

LOL

I will explain erol chain of life;

Corrupt THK generals send young F-16 pilots for trolling over aegean which get owned badly by HAF which uses Erieyes,F-16 with JHMCS etc.
Frutrated THK pilots leave THK and become pilots with THY.
Rest is well known.

they can be so stupid ! they just can!

here aint some ocean or some desert int he middle of nowhere !

as soon your lovely F-35 has crossed the mountains of asia minor it will be detectable! detectable means no more advantage in BVR . taking in account that in wvr cant even match f-16s with (iris-t and helmet). your super duper (120+ million dollar)aircraft can be matched!


you rnt USAF no F-22 to clear the way! f-35 in your hand will have to fight its way.


-----------------------------------------------
cause only we (the hellenes),contrary to the barbarians we do not count the amount of our enemy in the battle.

F-35 has only front low RCS.
And since this fighter is slow arse and canīt fly high and fast like EF2000 or even M2000 it will be dead meat the moment HAF/HN IADS detects it from above,the sides and the rear,lol.
After detected cat EF2000 will play mouse F-35.

And remember... when HAF downs an F35 dont you Turkos come here and cheer for your "Victory"....
Its the other way around....

1 f35 enough for 4 mirage,typhoon,rafale etc.

they ll not see what is coming even.

i cant understand the greeks.its not hard to understand this fact.

1-)f35 is a stealth plane.she has lower rcs.
2-)f35 has the most advanced electronics.its the plane of future.
3-)f35 has AN/APG-81 AESA radar the most advanced radar.
4-)it ll use aim120c7-d and meteor.

all is so clear.f35 has best radar.she ll detect rafale before rafale detect her.and she ll fire on rafale aim120 or meteor.

i claim 1 more time.1 jsf at least 3 rafale or typhoon

"...1-)f35 is a stealth plane.she has lower rcs...."

Being "stealth" does NOT make it invisible... A modern and up-to-date radar power enough can pick it up easily... not to mention that its stealthness is only high from the front!!!!



"...2-)f35 has the most advanced electronics.its the plane of future...."

Your TV remote control has more electronics that a WWII 40mm Bofors but cant shoot down a plane... not even a freaking fly....



"...3-)f35 has AN/APG-81 AESA radar the most advanced radar...."

So why do you by AWACS?



"...4-)it ll use aim120c7-d and meteor...."

I bet you didn't know that those missiles can be carried by other aircraft also,.... did you?




LOL... erol you seem a decent guy.... stop what you are smoking cause they brain your damage....

@Erol

It's not so easy as you tell it. And it has lots of ifs...

We're not it's an 1 vs 1 fighting nowadays. As you have seen, thanks to erieyes 2 HAF's F-16s or M-2000-5 can shoot down 4 or even 8 Tuaf's fighters.

And F-35's radar won't have the best radar. F-22's, EF-2000's CAESAR and Super Hornet's one will be better than the F-35's...

f35 radar is superior to f22 raptor radar.

raptor is nowadays plane but f35 belong to future.

The AN/APG-81 is a successor radar to the F-22's AN/APG-77. Over 3,000 AN/APG-81 AESA radars are expected to be ordered for the F-35, with production to run beyond 2035, and including large quantities of international orders. As of August 2007, 8 APG-81s have already been produced and delivered. The first three blocks of radar software have been developed, flight tested, and delivered ahead of schedule by the Northrop Grumman Corporation. Capabilities of the AN/APG-81 include the AN/APG-77's air-to-air modes plus advanced air-to-ground modes including high resolution mapping, multiple ground moving target detection and track, combat identification, electronic warfare, and ultra high bandwidth communications. The current F-22 production radar is the APG-77v1, which draws heavily on APG-81 hardware and software for its advanced air-to-ground capabilities

u are all blind by nationalism and cant see the fact.

f35 is gonna own you more badly than now.

The AN/APG-81 is watching you with amraams.

@Erol

this is also a point of view...

but I suggest you to further check which radar is more superior.

"....u are all blind by nationalism and cant see the fact....."


LOL... THE QUOTE OF THE MONTH....
By a Turk.

ok lets look.

show me a radar better and f35 radar.show me it in next 10 years.

cos wont be if americans doesnt make better one it ll be always the top radar.

Erol is partly right, the AN/APG 81 is an improved AN/APG 77 with also a look down capability for improved A/G missions. For AA the AN/APG 81 is on par with AN/APG 77 of the raptor.

But if you argued that the manufacturer can easily downgrade the use of the radar by software I'd agree.

--------------------------------------------

Turkiye Turklerindir

Just examine both CEASAR and APG-79 specifications and compare them to APG-81's specifications.


I'm certain you won't lose your time with the things you'll find.

LOL

History of air battle always had stupid ideas like F-35.
Remember F-102 or F-4D which did not had cannons and were raped by cheap Mig-17 over vietnam cause super duper radars and radar guided missiles did not work as they should,lol.



Every serious nation which will go for F-35 either has EF2000,F-22 or already have F-15 in service.
For obvious reasons.



Only countries with no serious threat like netherlands or norway will do fly arounds with F-35 or will be "embedded" within Nato task force protected by F-22,EF2000 and Rafales.

that ceaser nothing near f35 radar.

1 more time i repeat.

in next 10 year at least any radar can come close to f35 radar.

prove it and you'll be right.

Radar comparissons

CAPTORiEF-2000 Tranch 1 and 2jF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 12 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 70 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 124 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 185 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 220 km+

APG-77 AESAiF-22AjF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+

CAESAR AESAiEF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/RsjF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+

APG-81 AESAiF-35A/B/CjF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+

and for comparison:
APG-80 AESAiF-16EjF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195 km+

RBE-2 PESAiRafale F1/F2/F3jF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 7~9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 13~15 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 41~49 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 73~87 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 130~154 km+

APG-68 V9iF-16 C/D/Ijand RDY-2iM2000-5MK2 and -9jF
For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+

--------------------------------------------

Turkiye Turklerindir

"...But if you argued that the manufacturer can easily downgrade the use of the radar by software I'd agree. ..."

Funny but yes Nutshak.. this is the argument....
Do you really expect the Amerigos to release a full potential hitech equipment for military use and scatter it around the world uncontrollably at launch time? 10 or 15 years later and renameit something else for marketing reasons...Yes!

Let me remind you that they said NO to the F22 request of Japan due of fears the tech secrets might leak elsewhere....

in radar case if a radar someday ll surpass grumman aesa radar it ll be iai elta designs.i mean israel radars.

why i must prove man?

just think jsf biggest military project in america and world history.and usaf ll order thousands of these planes.

and the best aviation firms such as lockeed,grumman designed this craft.so isnt it stupid that poor european can have better radar?

Nutuk already did it.

CAESAR has 400 elements that APG-81.

LOL this is hillarious.
Nutroll who gave you top secret radar stats?
How ridicilous is that?

also these rcs must be classic planes.

i hate to remind you guys but

f35 is a stealth plane its stealth i feed up anymore

also these numbers which nutuk gave how reliable.there is no plane as f35 yet.

Also I should remind you Erol that allies except the British will take an downgraded export version. With this in mind, both Turkey and Greece won't get a stealth plane but a LO plane.

So, CAESAR will see F-35 in a further distance than that showed by Nutuk's message.

did greece bought export version of f16 blk52?no
or did greece bought export version of leopard2 no(even greek leo2hel superior to all leopard series)

or challenger 2e.its an export version and its the best one.

kornet e.e mean export.its best version of that missiles.

so export version mean better one.

any country purchase a downgraded weapon systems.

all export version must be same even better than usual ones.

torm2e bukm2e etc. etc. there are thousand of example about this case.

turkish version in future ll have some turkish electronics

how israeli f16i(its same plane with greek blk52+)superior to other blk+ series

turkish f35 ll be superior to other versions.

as u know already turkish firms has put some electronics to f16s such as friend or foe systems.

in our new 30 f16blk50+ plus has some turkish systems too.

Most funny thing is that F-35 in frontal LO configuration donīt have any IR missiles,lol.
Thus they will fly with 0,9 mach within enemy IADS which will illuminate them from a dozen angles with GCI,Erieyes,Patriot,S300,frigates,FAC and most of all fighter radars of EF2000 which will hunt them from many miles above and that with much higher sustained speed.

yes and the best engineers of usa forget about it.and 1 greek boy found the mistake.

This is not true.

For example USA and Russia in rare cases they sell to other states equal weapons.

European countries is an other story. They are not superpowers.

@Erol

No.

USAF has F-22.

can someone from the turkish kiddos that had become experts tell me what is the role of F-35?

because probably you will find something like bomb truck or low cost addition to f-22s but nothing about aerial superiority.

the first time they said something about aerial superiority it was like two months ago stating that its electronics and stealth (which are downgraded on your version so go figure ) will give an advantage in BVR and nothing in WVR all that for a plane of value around 120+ million dollars.

f-104 and f-4 are good examples of how the Americans can screw things when they start basing their project purely in "technological superiority"

if you add all this to aegean all the non lobotomise human beings conclude: to much money for nothing!

i told you before in TUAF F-35 will have to fight its way AND ITS NOT A GOOD FIGHTER!!


ON THE OTHER HAND EF-20000 CAN HUMILIATE YOUR F-16 BOTH IN BWR AND VWR.


i hv a bonus question for all the turkish genius: what your aircrafts will do when will see ef-2000 after the bwr?
options:
a)run back home as fast they can
b) eject
c) curse the stupid prick that choose the F-35!!!

-----------------------------------------------
cause only we (the hellenes),contrary to the barbarians we do not count the amount of our enemy in the battle.

as far as i remember f35 carrying 4 amraam yes?if i am wrong correct me pls

so with basic turkey ll have minumum 100 f35

100x4=400

so at least greeks must have +440 typhoon.

but MONEY YOK

i cant imagine combination of

f35+737aewc+kc135r

greeks ll not able to know what hit them.

the only thing they ll feel is cold aegean water
and same scenario appear swim dimitri.

ahahahahaa ahahahahaha
100 f-35?

hahahahahahah


actually yourAEW will be a problem WHEN WILL BECOME OPERATIONAL

-----------------------------------------------
cause only we (the hellenes),contrary to the barbarians we do not count the amount of our enemy in the battle.

u are right it ll be operational really very late i guess

maybe around 2012-2013

but u know we ll begin to receive first f35s in 2014.

without jsf i think its not much usefull.

we can use bvr tactics with 30 blk50+ and around 210 f16 ccip too.

f35+737aewc best strike combination in the world.

with these 2 planes u can strike any plane without risk

or u can strike any sam system without risk from very long distance

The most important strength of the F-35 is its APG-81 AESA radar, combined with its capability to internally carry both the AMRAAM and the MBDA Meteor BVRAAM.

As long as the F-35 keeps the edge in a better radar, and can use this superiority with a powerful BVRAAM, it will have the advantage.

Add to that its low cross section, which is a further plus in BVR combat.

i reckon turkiye made a good choice for the turkish airforce at least after we get our full order in the YEAR 2013 turkiye get the full technology transfure as well more earlier then we had with the F16

The F-35 is so "unfairly superior" in BVR combat

It can launch a Meteor BVRAAM at you from miles away, and you won't even see it on your radar screen for a very long time.

Add to that the fact that the TuAF will order 116 F-35As, while Greece will order 40 or 60 Eurofighters or Rafales, and the "unfairness" gets even bigger

but seriesly that amamzing man i mean were getting the F35 full tranfure like the right to build more earlier then the F16 i gess our involvement in the F35 JSF project paid off it paid off realy good thats what im amazed about mostly

@TuAF35LightningII

By the time Tuaf gets the 116 F-35s, Greece will have 80 F-35s.

You forget Greece can't avoid such a buy.

And you also forget that Dennis is Greek

My only concern with regards to the Dokdo class LPX is its name (Dokdo is the Korean name, while Takeshima is the Japanese name, of the Liancourt Rocks that are disputed between South Korea and Japan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liancourt_Rocks

Will such a decision damage our good relations with Japan?

We have close industrial relations with both Japan and South Korea. Our cooperation with Japan doesn't include the military field because the Japanese constitution since WWII doesn't allow the Japanese firms to export military equipment to other countries.

If we'll eventually choose the Dokdo design, then for political reasons (to keep our relations good with Japan) we should "modify" this design for our own needs (e.g. by adding a ski-jump for F-35B in front, and several other modifications) and make it "indigenous" and rename it as a separate class.

well they can always start a meeting together with japan and korea and try to work this out they both have commen enemys like china and north korea right now

Yannis said:

"U214 will be recieved till end of this month."

OH BOY..Self Ownage !

---

On 12 June 1992, a Greek Mirage F-1C crashed during a dogfight with a Turkish F-16 piloted by Capt. Ilhan Filiz.

On 8 October 1996, a Greek Mirage-2000 piloted by Thanos Grivas shot down a Turkish F-16D with a Magic IR missile.

Just two days after that murder, on 10 October 1996 a Greek Mirage-2000 crashed close to Semadirek island after a dogfight with two Turkish F-16s.

Point of the story is: TUAF saved itself two missiles.

Much better than to listen to these for 15 years;

"We will have 1000 tanks by 2010".
We will hve 145 AH-1Z by 2010".
"Our MESAs work".
"Our CCIPs will have APG-68(V9)".

lol,I could go on but my fingers start to hurt.

So Yannis anymore insider info ? Will the U-214 be in service by hmm let me see 2013 ?

---

On 12 June 1992, a Greek Mirage F-1C crashed during a dogfight with a Turkish F-16 piloted by Capt. Ilhan Filiz.

On 8 October 1996, a Greek Mirage-2000 piloted by Thanos Grivas shot down a Turkish F-16D with a Magic IR missile.

Just two days after that murder, on 10 October 1996 a Greek Mirage-2000 crashed close to Semadirek island after a dogfight with two Turkish F-16s.

Point of the story is: TUAF saved itself two missiles.

Lol

Lets see if soon your gypsy navy is same excited like you troll.

Oh, but im sure the Grik navy is crying over the fact that the U-214TN will be more advanced then their new dildo. and im also positive that the recent development in our naval industry is causing hairless amongst the grik nation of seafarers or whatever crap you call youselves these days.

---

On 12 June 1992, a Greek Mirage F-1C crashed during a dogfight with a Turkish F-16 piloted by Capt. Ilhan Filiz.

On 8 October 1996, a Greek Mirage-2000 piloted by Thanos Grivas shot down a Turkish F-16D with a Magic IR missile.

Just two days after that murder, on 10 October 1996 a Greek Mirage-2000 crashed close to Semadirek island after a dogfight with two Turkish F-16s.

Point of the story is: TUAF saved itself two missiles.

so what gays

buy what ever you want from youre eu masters, at the end we always screwed you gay tellaks



talking bs ,

kids of 5 years no single greek in this forum has a clu what he or she is talking about,


go chuw moms titi,


let you generals speak and listen and learn the reality, you girls are only good in kok sukking,

and complaining to eu

keep watching you sky who is daily raiped by our planes.

go try or learn to fuk a girl first, then come talk like a man


you pussies are doooomed to be loooosers and you gays diserves to be treated like slaves

they sell all junks to you make you bankrupped and you gays think they love you,

because of how meeningfull and contributable you gays are.

even you have nukes still you aint a treat to us ,

go consurn you with makedons or gypsies and bulgarians,

go compare you self on equall sized materns


pfff what a bunch a loooooooosers guy

@wombat master

I will tell you how it ends.
Construction of first U214TN starts and takes 10 years cause TL YOK and technical issues will take much longer than Papanikolis.
Same like CCIP,same like F-16-50+,same like M60T,same like MESA,same like S-70B,same like 7bn patriot "order",etc,etc,lol.