Many Greeks posting here can be said to be the same type of Neo-Ottomanist "realists" he is characterizing.
QUOTE (George Karabelias)
.......various interest groups which have in their core the internationalized and parasitic bourgeoisie of Greece; but also many other parties, from groups of intellectuals and artists to progressive political parties and religious interests, either by voluntary servitude or by material factors (e.g. the very large number of discs which certain musicians sell in the Turkish market) promote a Greek-Turkish friendship with a view to profit.
......the support of Turkey in the EU, the acceptance of a fait accompli regarding the occupation in Cyprus, the sermons that the Ottoman occupation was less than harmful. Since the time that a Neo-Ottoman Turkey returned as a "strong power" in the region, whilst at the same time the influence and power of Anglo-American interests has waned, a growing segment of the Greek elite are readying themselves to take on a role of modern Phanariotes, accepting the domination of the new power.
For the Greeks and the Armenians, the only role that was permitted was that of the intermediary between the West and the Ottomans, and this is why the Greek middle class developed as a commercial or commercial-naval power. Hence, from the 18th century the Greeks became more active in the Danube, southern Russia, Austro-Hungary, Smyrna and Constantinople as traders, and on the islands, as seamen.
For the Greek elite there were two options: either to resist the extension of Neo-Ottomanism by setting up a Balkan and Middle Eastern bloc, as they tried to do when Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou was in power; or they could accept the new facts and join the emerging Neo-Ottoman reality, and merely balancing the Turkish influence on Greece with others - Western or Russian - and always with reward in mind, i.e. winning the Neo-Ottoman enterprise zone as a first step.
Since the last government of Andreas Papandreou, and especially from the time of the government of Kostas Simitis, in Greece, and from Glafkos Clerides in Cyprus, the second option became dominant.
With the early bards of anti-nationalism, the intellectuals of the Left; who prepared the ideological ground, the Greek ruling classes gradually became Neo-Ottoman. The Annan Plan, the policies of Dimitris Christofias, George Papandreou and Dora Bakoyannis, the Turkish television serials on Greek TV, Repousi [history book controversy] and Karras, the huge investments of the National Bank of Greece in Turkey and the growing role of the besieged Ecumenical Patriarch (controlled by Turkey) on Greek ecclesiastical life, are manifestations of this new reality; in which gradually, the Greek people have become addicted.
Shipping capital, because they are not related to the internal accumulation of capital of a small country such as Greece and far exceed it (the Greek shipowners operate the largest fleet in the world), has supranational features; or to be more precise, coincides largely with the interests of the major naval forces of the West, that control the global trade and transport. Thus, the center of action of Greek shipping is in London and New York, which suffered great damage from the recent crisis, and secondarily in Piraeus and Limassol. This distancing from the Greek community is intensified by the fewer Greek crews and seamen working on Greek ships.
On the one hand, economically and politically, they are countries in the second tier of the West and treated as the poor or annoying relatives, and on the other hand ship owners participate fully in the heart of the West, and primarily Anglo-Saxon, multinational capital. And the greater "paradox" is that the Helladic Greek and Cypriot states are treated as poor relations of their own ship owners and other dealers, who largely have an extremely flat and anti-nationalist perception of the interests of Hellenism, preferring always the general interests of the West against the narrow interests of Greece or Cyprus. And if those interests coincide, as has happened in very few cases, things go well, if not, as often happens because of the geopolitical position of Greece, then they consider the interests of their wallet, or the general interests of the West.
Today the general interests of Anglo-Saxon capital, which Greek shipping and the general globalised Greek capital is tied into, ordain for our region, the following provision of power: in the center of a sub-imperialist station is Turkey, which in terms of size, location, economic potential and population outweighs all others. The other Balkan powers and Greece should be subordinated to Turkey and accept what we call Neo-Othomanism.
Greece, the Greek nation-state, and the Cypriot government, which is in direct rivalry with Turkish expansionism in Cyprus, the Aegean, Thrace, should subjugate their special interests; namely, national integrity and independence and the overriding interests of the alliance. That is why Anglo-American support for Turkey is permanent and stable and why they call on the Greek-Cypriot elites to align themsevles with this strategy. The main lever for this transition of the Greeks of Greece and Cyprus is the same Greek international capital and domestic Greeks subordinated them.
Typical are the views of the recently arrested (for illicit trade in antiquities) ship-owner, Costas Karras. He is a 17-year member of the secretariat of Bilderberg club, president of the Greek-Turkish Forum and the Greek section of CDRSEE (the organization that issued the history books of Mrs Koulouris) and he is a Great Archon of the Patriarchate. He is also an ecologist and acts as a mentor regarding ecological activities to Patriarch Bartholomew. Essentially, his views are that we must re-establish as the center of the Hellenism, the Phanari and the Patriarchate, and leave behind nationalism. This is because the Helladic nation-state and a free Cyprus are very small and insignificant for the investment and political dreams of a type of capital which is often Greek in name only.
Furthermore, representatives of all parties, capital and the Left, co-sign the same texts in support and solidarity as happened with the signatures in favor of Mr. Karras, or for the pursued Mrs Repousi or for poor Costas Simitis.
I recommend to read the original in Greek. The article really clears any misconceptions about what exactly is happening that is turning the Greek elites into lackeys of the Turkish General Staff and their plans for Greece.
You did not even read the article illiterate Turko-Mohammedan.
It is saying essentially that the biggest economic force and currency earner in Greece is its shipping. Even outside Greece there is a huger ex-patriot Greek shipping community that influences policy back in Athens. Many of these economic elites are centered outside of Greece, they are in London, Houston, New York, etc. They are spearheads of the political, media, intellectual elites in Greece constantly capitulating to Turkey. They have aligned themselves with the Western policies and elites in supporting Turkey as being geo-politically more important than Greece.
Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property, while nine out of 10 said they had never taken a holiday abroad. Just under 70% said they never read books ... Many also expressed fears that Turkey's neighbours planned to carve up the country.
Nearly 70% said wives needed their husband's permission to work while 57% believed that a female should never leave home wearing a sleeveless top. ...
While 88% agreed that Turkey should be governed by democracy "under each and every condition", this was undermined by the significant proportion - 48% - who said the military should intervene "when necessary". ...
The survey, entitled Who Are We?, was conducted on behalf of Hurriyet, one of Turkey's biggest selling newspapers, renowned for its secularist outlook.
Explains alot of the ignorance a la Turka going around in this forum. It seems your people only read the Koran or Nutuk and celebrity gossip(in newspapers).
We don't like Moslems. Why is it all the Moslems need to immigrate to Christian nations after they've trashed their own with their IGNORANCE? They're like cockroaches.
Quote:Christos Yannaras
I translated my favorite paragraph:
The most crushing of the data limiting the debate on the "Davutoglu Challenge" is the differences in "convictions" of the two peoples: the Turkish state, with whatever government, grows in the schools and public life a living patriotism, embellished (and often spoofed) historic conciousness, collective sense of dignity, pride, power and the international prestige of the Turkish homeland. In Greece the educational policy of all parties is to methodically un-Hellenize the youth as a preparation of "resistance" to a fantasized and upcoming nationalist junta. The education of the minds of the children proceeds with defamation toward the history of their nation. The press and television scoff about fascism as a reference to homeland, tradition and culture. The purpose and sense of this organized collective is only to ensure with loans to maximize the consumer power of the affiliated.
Se dyo arthra toy stin efimerida to «Ethnos» (2 kai 4 Aygoystoy 2009) o kathigitis kai akadimaikos k. Basileios Markezinis prosfere sto elladiko koino mia syntomografiki paroysiasi toy «fainomenoy Ntaboytogloy»: Skiagrafise tin prosopikotita, tis apopseis kai ti simasia toy roloy poy diadramatizei simera sti diethni skini o neos ypoyrgos Eksoterikon tis Toyrkias, i dynamiki ton ideon toy.
I anagnosi ton arthron gennaei tin anagki na eyharistisei kaneis ton kathigiti Markezini gia tin eksairetika gonimi proklisi kai ti sobarotita poy komizoyn oi problimatismoi toy. Katatithentai sto keno, sto tipota i stelehosi toy ellinikoy ypoyrgeioy Eksoterikon apo ti simerini kybernisi ypiretei apokleistika mikrokommatikes skopimotites apithanis ftineias, i anikanotita kai i mikronoia katantoyn grafiki tin eksoteriki mas politiki. Kai to skiniko symplironetai apo toys analogis stathmis «armodioys» ekprosopoys tis aksiomatikis antipoliteysis. Oso gia tis «deksamenes skepsis» kai «meleton» diethnologikoy problimatismoy stin Ellada, moiazei na kopiaroyn ta metaptyhiaka institoyta tis allodapis, opoy kapote spoydasan oi epiteleis toys, i tin epeksergasmeni pliroforisi me tin opoia toys trofodotoyn «symmahikes» presbeies. To fainomeno Ntaboytogloy toys einai mallon «eksotiko», yperbainei ta endiaferonta toys.
Alla esto kai horis orati elpida, oi problimatismoi toy kathigiti Markezini paramenoyn gonimoi: yparhei akoma dynamiki zymi stin elliniki koinonia, anishyri eklogika, alla foreas ton zymoseon poy mporoyn na odigisoyn se ekrikseis anatropon. Aksizei loipon na syzitithei i proklisi Ntaboytogloy kai poia tha mporoyse na einai i elliniki aksiopoiisi tis.
I syzitisi desmeyetai apo poly sygkekrimena dedomena: to 1926, meta tin antallagi ton plithysmon, i Toyrkia eihe 13 ekatommyria katoikoys kai i Ellada 6,5 ekatommyria. Simera i Toyrkia ehei 75 ekatommyria kai i Ellada 10. To 2020 oi statistikes problepoyn gia tin Toyrkia 100 ekatommyria kai gia tin Ellada, to 2080, 2,5 ekatommyria.
To dogma peri analogias eksoplismon 7 pros 10 ehei apo hronia egkataleifthei. I elladiki ritoreia gia to «aksiomahon kai etoimopolemon» ton Enoplon Dynameon moiazei me synaisthimatiki grafikotita, otan oloi (filoi kai epiboyloi) kseroyn oti:
I thiteia meionetai synehos me ti logiki tis psifothirias, ohi ton anagkon tis amynas.
O eksoplismos tis horas einai i hrysi eykairia gia leilasia dimosioy hrimatos apo toys politikoys, ta kommata, toys mesazontes, ohi gia eksyghronismo tis amynas.
To kratos, sto synolo ton leitoyrgion toy einai «mpahalo» anorganosias, rastonis kai dialysis, den ginetai na apoteloyn eksairesi oi Enoples Dynameis.
To pio asfyktiko apo ta dedomena poy oriothetoyn ti syzitisi gia tin «proklisi Ntaboytogloy» einai i diafora sto «fronima» ton dyo laon: i toyrkiki politeia, me opoiadipote kybernisi, kalliergei sta sholeia kai ston dimosio bio ena zontano patriotismo, eksoraismeni (syhna kai plastografimeni) istoriki syneidisi, aisthima syllogikis aksioprepeias, perifanias, ishyos kai diethnoys kyroys tis toyrkikis patridas. Stin Ellada i ekpaideytiki politiki olon ton kommaton kalliergei methodika ton afellinismo tis neolaias san proetoimasia «antistasis» se mia fantasiodos eperhomeni ethnikistiki hoynta. Katasykofantei i ekpaideysi stis syneidiseis ton paidion tin istoria toy laoy toys. Typos kai tileoraseis hleyazoyn san peripoy fasismo kathe anafora se patrida, paradosi, politismo. Stohos kai «noima» tis organomenis syllogikotitas einai mono na eksasfalizei me daneia ti megistopoiisi tis katanalotikis eyhereias ton syndikalismenon.
Egklobismenos sta asfyktika ayta dedomena o tyhon anisyhos Ellinas prepei na dialehthei me ta realistika kai oksyderki politika oramata toy k. Ntaboytogloy apo theseos midenikis, kyriolektika, ishyos. Den ehei pia i Ellada perithoria na diapragmateythei para mono, enanti opoioydipote timimatos, tin istoriki syneheia ellinikis paroysias ston 21o aiona, ti diasosi (apotropi eksafanisis) toy ellinofonoy kratidioy. Oi Toyrkoi apokleietai na agnooyn oti mporoyn, opoiadipote stigmi thelisoyn, na katalysoyn to dialymeno kai dieftharmeno kratidio poy mono «epanidrysi» tha to esoze. Blepoyn kai krinoyn poso anikanoi einai oi elladites politikoi na diaheiristoyn ta aploystera ton problimaton, poso to endiaferon toys eksantleitai apokleistika kai arrostimena stin eklogi i epaneklogi toys.
Tha syzitoysan, isos, oi Toyrkoi na dosoyn eggyiseis paratasis tis ellinikis paroysias, an peisthoyn oti yparhei symferoteri gi aytoys politiki apo tin tmimatiki i synoliki prosartisi ton ellinikon edafon. To endehomeno diapragmateysis ypodilonetai stin periptosi Ntaboytogloy: Me ti diki toy politiki logiki, symferoteri gia tin Toyrkia einai i othomaniki prooptiki aytokratorias, ohi i kemaliki prooptiki toy ethnikistikoy kratismoy. I aytokratoria simaine pantote «taksi pragmaton» (ordo rerum), to eidos tis eirinikis synyparksis diaforetikon laon kai ethnotiton poy egkainiase i Romi (pax romana), me aksona enotitas enan igemoniko lao diaheiristi koinon gia oloys politistikon proteraiotiton.
O k. Ntaboytogloy moiazei na thelei tin Toyrkia ohi se rolo kratikis «perifereiakis yperdynamis» poy ypiretei mian amerikaniki Pagkosmia Taksi Pragmaton kai proypothetei tin «esostrefeia» toy kemalikoy ethnikismoy. Thelei tin Toyrkia forea toy islamikoy politismoy, me igetiko rolo stin proagogi tis synyparksis horon poy briskontan kapote kato apo tin othomaniki kyriarhia. Na apoktisei o islamikos politismos, ston geografiko horo tis allote othomanikis epikrateias, politiki proteraiotita enanti toy ethnikoy kratoys, to opoio, os typika dytiko proion, einai dysafomoioto stin Anatoli. Arneitai o Ahmet Ntaboytogloy tin afeli epidioksi ton IPA simera: na omogenopoiithei o moysoylmanikos kosmos me basi ton ekdytikismo toy. Prosblepei omos se ena Islam anoihto pros ti Dysi, metriopathes kai symbibasmeno, gi ayto kai zitaei tin eisodo tis Toyrkias stin Eyropaiki Enosi.
...
Yes indeed before Greece joined the EU, the greatest amounts of money turning the economy was made through two things:
1- Greece's humongous commercial fleet.
2- Foreign Currency sent from the Greeks abroad.
Things have changed a little by now, as Greece is still, as you say, relying on its merchant fleet, which is not bad at all, except by periods of extended crisis like the one we are in.
Now,in all serious thinking, what is your vision for the future of the Greek "Neo-Ottomans" and what do you think they want deep down??
I personally think Greece's fleet and trade contacts + Turkey's booming industry would make a kickass marketing combination.
One final anecdote may further illustrate my point.[12] At the end of the Balkan
Wars the Ottomans were defeated and the Ottoman administration retreated from
Bulgaria. However, certain Ottoman Islamic vakifs (foundations) remained, so the
Ottomans sent a delegation to Bulgaria to negotiate the future of these vakifs. The
cabinet dispatched two expert ministers: the minister of public reconstruction,
and the minister for public accounts. Now one of these was Greek Orthodox, and
the other Jewish. In an afterthought the cabinet considered it would seem ridicu-
lous to the Bulgarians if they were expected to negotiate the Islamic vakifs with
two non-Muslims. So they decided to replace the Jewish minister with Mehmet
Effendi, a Muslim. The Greek Orthodox minister remained, because he would
know best how to deal with Orthodox Bulgarians.
There are two observations to be made with regard to this. One is that the cabinet
had no difficulty discussing the dilemma. They could actually say, in so many
words, We cant send two non-Muslims, we need a Muslim there, so lets find
a Muslim to send along with the Greek. The second interesting point is that this
discussion was official, and documented in the minutes. No less remarkable is the
fact that the chief officer of the cabinet who took the minutes includes in his
memoirs the following personal observations: It was really a mistake not to send
Süleyman Effendi [who was Jewish]. Mehmet Effendi was so incompetent that he
lost all the vakifs. We really should have sent the Jewish member to save the
Islamic heritage in Bulgaria. In the republican period, the cabinet could not pos-
sibly have discussed this kind of issue. They would not have had the appropriate
categories to accommodate this dilemma.
[12] I have taken this account from Tanor, A. F., Görüp, I vittiklerim [What I have Heard and Seen] (Ankara: Türk Tarihi Kurumu, 1952).
Source: Article by Caglar Keyder, printed in Citizenship and the Nation-State in Greece and Turkey. Edited byFaruk Birtek and Thalia Dragonas, pp. 44-45.
That Ottoman Greek defending the interests of the Ottoman state over Bulgaria reminds me of the various modern internal Neo-Ottoman Greeks of the variety: "support Turkish EU bid, invest in Turkey, associated Greek-Turk friendship faggotrey." In defence of the Ottoman Greeks, at least they lived in the Ottoman state, but for the contemporary internal Neo-Ottoman Greeks, what can anyone say for such disgusting scum that are more and more taking over the media and government apparatus?
WASHINGTON: ...Congressman Thomas G Tancredo, Republican from Colorado, was being interviewed by AM 540 WFLA radio host Pat Campbell, who asked him what the response of the United States should be were terrorist attacks on US cities to take place and were attributable to extremist Muslims. The Congressman replied, ... then we could take out their holy sites. Asked if that meant Mecca, Tancredo answered, Yes.
The elite Phanariotes will eventually return, because Athens can never be as beautiful and energetic as Istanbul. These two cities are in a different caliber.
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