Can you find and show a 1st generation aircraft with the capabilities of a 2nd generation? Or can you find a 2nd gen with the capabilities of a 3th gen?
Each generation brought a radical change in air warfare tactics, 5th generation is BVR oriented!
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
a second generation f-5 beat a third generation f16.
a second generation mig 25 downed a third generation f18
a first generation sabre downed a second generation mig 21
so yeah i can give you examples.realisticly the difference between a rafael and f35 are not as great and in A2A the rafael has certain performance strengths against the f35.
can a 4th generation super hornet match an f14 in range and endurance?can it even match the flight/bombing profile of a second generation A7?
im not having a go at the f35 because yurkey selected it nor im i having a go at american aeronautical engineering but every shred of grey matter that i have tells me that the f35 will be another collosal scam as was the f104 programme.
[quote]a second generation f-5 beat a third generation f16.
a second generation mig 25 downed a third generation f18
a first generation sabre downed a second generation mig 21
so yeah i can give you examples.realisticly the difference between a rafael and f35 are not as great and in A2A the rafael has certain performance strengths against the f35.[/quote]
Of course there will be some exceptions, there are many factors that decide an air battle. An airforce however can not trust on exceptions and heroism or desperate acts that sometimes lead to a miracle.
Greeks tend to glorify the stuff if they have them. Example SCALP is an ubernatural super duper weapon that will even take out the Ataturk dam
Let's purely stick to technical capabilities and also you will agree that F35 is the only aircraft that is purely oriented on BVR, with stealth structure, internal weapon bays, AESA radar, state of the art communication links for C4I.
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
it does not rely matter what jet you have but it rely does not add up to the jet only and the jet only gives you a 50% chance in air combat and for the pilot 25%25 percent chance depending if he rely is that good
"Let's purely stick to technical capabilities and also you will agree that F35 is the only aircraft that is purely oriented on BVR, with stealth structure, internal weapon bays, "
ask any pilot and he will tell you any fighter that is purely a Bvr aircraft is a sign of weakness.
or for that matter any aircraft thats a dog fighter.
you dismissed my examples as one offs.let me ask you a question.generals plan for wars in great details but they seldomly transpire the way they were planned.
can the THK gurantee its f35 pilots that they will only face the HAF in bvr?
can the THK gurantee its f35 pilots that they will only face the HAF in bvr?
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I don't get your question? Whom should we face than, the US? In that case no any plan will safe us anyway. For the rest the F35 with her technological level would be lord and master over any neighbouring countries airforce.
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
Airbattle statistics and future projections show that about 50% of the kills will be BVR and 40+% in the transition range of BVR and visual range. Less than 10% will be in dogfights.
It is no coincidence that all major aircraft producers pursue AESA radars and BVR optimizations.
The dogfights we have above the Aegean is just peacetime nostalgy, fun and show off cases mostly performed by the unarmed fighter aircrafts.
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
These projections don't fall out of the clear sky! It is not for nothing that air battles are simulated in large scale exercizes. Technology evolves and kill distances keep growing (BVR).
Can you tell me why Greece has such a big difficulty in making the decission for next generation fighter selection and why the Greek general staff put's high value in selection of an aircraft with AESA? BVR perhaps?
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
Lockheed Martin's F-35 Brings Unique 5th Generation Capabilities to Seoul Air Show
07:34 GMT, October 26, 2009 SEOUL, South Korea | The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II program is the only fighter program delivering 5th generation capabilities internationally, a Lockheed Martin executive said Tuesday at the Seoul Air Show.
"The F-35's 5th generation capabilities, including Very Low Observable stealth, integrated sensor fusion, net-enabled operations and advanced sustainment, make it the premiere fighter of the future," said Stephen OBryan, vice president of F-35 Business Development and Customer Engagement. "The F-35 is the only multi-role fighter designed for survivability in the highest-threat environments, and it provides superior capability at comparable 4th generation fighter costs."
The theme of O'Bryan's presentation, "Global Partners Building Global Security," reflects the high level of international participation and cooperation on the Joint Strike Fighter program. The F-35 will replace more than 13 aircraft types and enable allies to conduct seamless, integrated operations. Throughout its lifecycle, the F-35 will create enduring industrial relationships, from the production and global delivery systems to worldwide operation and support via Autonomic Logistics Global Sustainment (ALGS).
F-35 ALGS, developed in parallel with the aircraft and its systems, defines the F-35's total life-cycle sustainment system. In combination with the F-35's high level of reliability, ALGS is designed to reduce support costs significantly over the aircraft types it will replace. This embedded aircraft support system simplifies and streamlines maintenance, providing prognostics and health management to keep the aircraft mission-ready, using a worldwide support network and infrastructure. Recently, the F-35 Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) Computerized Maintenance Management System (CMMS) began monitoring BF-1, the first short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, from the Lockheed Martin F-35 Sustainment Operations Center in Fort Worth, Texas. BF-1 is the first F-35 supported solely by ALIS.
The F-35 Lightning II is a 5th generation fighter, combining advanced stealth with fighter speed and agility, fully fused sensor information, network-enabled operations, and lower operational and support costs. Lockheed Martin is developing the F-35 with its principal industrial partners, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems. Two separate, interchangeable F-35 engines are under development: the Pratt & Whitney F135 and the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team F136.
Fighter designers have been declaring the end of dogfights for decades, over many generations of fighters. And what happens every time these fighters go to war? They discover that they still need to be able to dogfight. In Vietnam, it was declared that the days of dogfighting were over, and all planes needed were missiles. Then we went into Vietnam and discovered we still needed to dogfight.
Vietnam is 40 years ago dear, however that's still very fresh since Greeks keep living in the phalanx era.
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
Pathfinder (Login Pathfinder_tr) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Rafale, Eurofighter or the JSF
October 27 2009, 12:36 AM
From what I read in this forum the F-35 will not be the best fighter for A2A engagements. However if most of the battle is going to take place in BVR, then there seems to be no problem. If all participant countries fulfill their orders and support this aircraft, there will be better upgrades in the future no doubt. However its low cruising speed, and having one engine could be a problem in my opinion.
But I'm thinking if Turkey should go for the Eurofighter or not? Will operating these two different aircraft be too expensive maybe?
With only internal loads, F-35 is more mauverable than F-16, which is already quite a manuverable fighter. So, I really don't get what all that fvcking bitching is about. Modern aerial battles aren't faught with cannons and machine guns anymore, unless you're watching a movie! Having the proper stealth to sneak in on your enemies is obviously a better advantage over the modern battlefield than being able to fly like a fvcking owl.
a perfect greek choce would be the swedish fighter with AESA ,light, agile, link 16 matches perfectly with te ereye, carries a lot of weapons and can take off of any greek island
"a perfect greek choce would be the swedish fighter with AESA ,light, agile, link 16 matches perfectly with te ereye, carries a lot of weapons and can take off of any greek island
perfect"
If only the faggots in charge of the gayreek procurement office were as fvcking dumb as you... It'd a dream come true.
"With only internal loads, F-35 is more mauverable than F-16, which is already quite a manuverable fighter. So, I really don't get what all that fvcking bitching is about. Modern aerial battles aren't faught with cannons and machine guns anymore, unless you're watching a movie! Having the proper stealth to sneak in on your enemies is obviously a better advantage over the modern battlefield than being able to fly like a fvcking owl."
im thinking of maybe because of national pride take sampaix for example he fully supports the rafale because its a french jet but it does not got to do for what good it is compare to the F35 but yeah even same for the F35 as well
no i didnt see it but i can imagine.as regards the f104 programme alot of pilots died in the european and in particular the german airforce.so many that an enquiry was launched to solve why it had been purchased and alot og ugly facts were discovered.
"yasin22)
im thinking of maybe because of national pride take sampaix for example he fully supports the rafale because its a french jet but it does not got to do for what good it is compare to the F35 but yeah even same for the F35 as well"
No need for a voteto decide who know wnat he is talking about.
A Rafale pulls 9.0 g will its full loads of AAMs and pulls 11.0 g in many airshows (useful to dodge AAMs), now only IDIOTS can believe a 7.0 g aircraft ot be more maneuvrable.
As opposed to YOU we don't believe PS, we validate and we have evidences of Rafale capabilities, this £"more maneuvrable than F-16" thing applies only for the A2G configuration.
Now boy, keep me out of your little ineducated fantasies and do your home work, speak about "national pride" doesn't change your reality.
Defence chiefs are considering scrapping plans to have two large aircraft carriers equipped with fast jets, a move that could save billions of pounds, Whitehall officials have said.
The idea would be to have just one carrier holding US-made joint strike fighters, with the second, more basic, ship, being used only as a platform for helicopters and possibly unmanned drones equipped with missiles and cameras.
The two proposed carriers, the Queen Elizabeth, due to go into service in 2016, and the Prince of Wales, to follow in 2018, are already running £1bn over budget. The original estimated cost was £3.9bn.
Consideration is being given to cutting the number of joint strike fighters to be flown from the carriers, from 138 to about 50, saving more than £7bn.
The head of the Royal Navy last month conceded that the decision to build two large aircraft carriers could be overturned. Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope said that though contracts had been signed to build the carriers, next year's defence review could cause those plans to change.
Stanhope said that the navy was bracing itself for cuts. "Alongside the other two services we will have to make some difficult decisions," he said, adding that a balance was needed between the number of ships the nation could afford and the range of capabilities they offered.
George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, appeared to cast doubt on the Tories' commitment to build the carriers in September, saying he did not know what the "break clauses" were in the contracts.
Army chiefs in particular doubt the relevance of large aircraft carriers equipped with fast jets when the main enemy for the foreseeable future is likely to consist of insurgent groups.
MPs said this month that the number of aircrew being trained to land on carriers had been reduced. The Commons public accounts committee said a shortage of equipment had affected training, with the RAF having to "hibernate" some skills by cutting air crew trained for specific tasks, such as Harrier fighter pilots practising landing at night on carriers.
Also this month a report criticised the Ministry of Defence's spending on weapons and equipment, saying the MoD's weapons procurement was "unaffordable on any likely projection of future budgets". That report, by the former ministerial adviser Bernard Gray, drew attention to failings in the air defence programme, noting that delays meant the UK could not have carried out a Falklands-style mission over the past 20 years without risking significant casualties and the costs of acquiring adequate equipment at short notice, "or the embarrassment of not fighting at all". The Gray report said: "Our blushes have in part been spared by the fact that we have not generally been called upon in recent years to fight the kind of campaigns that have required the services of some of our most expensive and delayed weapons systems."
The new proposal to downgrade one carrier, modelling it on the existing commando and helicopter-carrying HMS Ocean, could be included in the government's defence review green paper in the spring. The MoD said today that no final decisions had been made.
http://www.modoracle.com/news/detail.html?id=19128
our military doctrine is "not be ambushed but to ambush". we use it since big hun state and it served us very well. so stealth will be perfect for our doctrines.
well, there are lots of dimensions of this argument. for example lots of times arguers ignore the missilles planes carry. after all missiles are going to down the enemy. i believe new generation missiles, radars and other detection systems will be more important than dog fight abilities.
the planes evolve to flying super computers from flying tank-wannabes. any producer or customer who ignores such evolvement will suffer deeply i believe.
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Dolphins dominate (Login cabatli_53) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Rafale, Eurofighter or the JSF
October 27 2009, 11:31 AM
He is ripping his arse to introduce their crap Fafale but Nobody care what he tolds... What a retard...
This message has been edited by cabatli_53 on Oct 27, 2009 11:32 AM
my fellows in the group. a replacement product can only make a customer happy. well you know, competition between sellers & producers will only benefit customer.
the same reason why they bought the f104 lemon.
1,political pressure
2.bribes
3.tech transfer,industrial participation
4.fear
5.good p.r and advertising.
6.to prop up the worlds biggest economy.
Quite a good summery, with an important mistake on point 3
NO TECH TRANSFER, and undergrade stealth for foreign countries.
Comparance is more than simple
Rafale 4th generation
Eurofighter 4th+ generation
JSF 5th generation
In fact, with the UAE contract ahead which include some nice improvement, the Rafale avionics would sound much more 5th than 4th.
This message has been edited by jesse04 on Oct 27, 2009 11:57 AM
the Rafale avionics would sound much more 5th than 4th.
October 27 2009, 1:14 PM
They already are since F2 and F3 standards (5th generation IT Core System Architecture, Interferometric ECMs, CPUs), with the roadmap, many of Rafale systems will be newer than that of F-35 comes 2015.
Yeah, that's my reaction too when i see how little your group knows about military matters, a chance you have an educated group leader, but funily he doesn't troll as you do...
Yeah, that's my reaction too when i see how little your group knows about military matters, a chance you have an educated group leader, but funily he doesn't troll as you do...
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Haha stupid frog gets owned 24/7 on main forum by Americans so his seeking asylum on G/T forum were Gayreeks are his friends
If i was a rich person i would buy a couple of Rafale's just to STFU your constant whine about Rafale.
"then why the hell half the world is still going to buy it for"
Well, the US is going to use it to supplement the F-22s, for ground attack, and for air support for the Marines. Britain is using it to replace the Harrier on their aircraft carriers, and for ground attack/close air support. Italy is also getting it for their aircraft carrier. Canada is getting it because they were involved in the project for economic reasons, so they might as well buy the product of their investment.
None of those countries are getting it to be their main air superiority fighter. Britain got the Eurofighter for that.
If it wasn't so expensive, it would be a great replacement for Greece's Corsairs. But that's not what Turkey is getting it for. But I guess the TUAF is smarter than the RAF, right? lol
"Now seriously, the new tanks we buy (develop and produce) will be state of the art latest generation, don't tell me you've missed that in the forum."
Oh I know all about how Turkey is going to buy a Korean tank, make a few modifications, call it Turkish, and announce that it's better than anything the Germans can make. lol
But that's been debated enough in other threads. Let's stick to the topic.
What Turkey might well be calling is "Mummy" when they realise the extend of the damages caused by the F-35 programe to their finances and aerospacial industry independence...
the only well acknowledged fact in this comparison is that Rafale and EF easily rape the F-35 in a WVR fight.
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Quoting a Turkish forumer:
"It's a well known fact that most of the boys or girls living in south-eastern Turkey are losing their virginities to horses or dogs of their villages, so I don't think this will suprise any Turk in this forum; we are used to these kinda news..."
"Dienekis)
the only well acknowledged fact in this comparison is that Rafale and EF easily rape the F-35 in a WVR fight".
True enough, but you forgot the pricer tags and technical delays which are also not showing F-35 too good...
On the Greek A-F actual capabilties...
Mirage 2000 is already capable of firing MICA IR which had a range of more than 80 km according to our Defense Minister's armament website AND the AdA Mirage 2000 5F Squadrons own website.
Ce missile, d'une portée maximale de 80 km, est particulièrement utilisé pour les phases de combat au delà de la détection visuelle et utilise les capacités de détection lointaine du radar RDY.
http://escadron1.2cigognes.free.fr/moyens.php
MICAs are used as IRSTs on the 2000/Rafale and are said to have a seeker's lock-on range capability of 60 km, so Mirage 2000 can already detect F-35 without the use of their radars and shoot them at this range.
Since they are well capable of flying HIGHER and FASTER than F-35 the advantage in range provided by the latest AIM-120 C7 versions becomes more than theorical.
A higher cervice ceilling and potential Maximum speed also increase AAM RANGE compared to those of a slower, lower flying target.
This so called "Indetectability" of F-35 is a MYTH.
F-35 is NOT as EM stealthy as F-22, it doesn't supercruise, is WAY slower with a much lower operational ceilling.
All those advantages are part of F-22 superiority in A2A and help reduce its chances to be detected, this is also valid for the Mirage vs a F-35.
Re GK87,
Oh I know all about how Turkey is going to buy a Korean tank, make a few modifications, call it Turkish, and announce that it's better than anything the Germans can make. lol
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Buying a Korean tanks wouldn't need a development time of 78.5 months. And we never said it is better than anything the Germans can make, we only say it will be better than the 10 years old Leo 2A6 design.
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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)
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