Ankara's Islamist government is turning away from the Western alliance.
By DAVID SCHENKER
The European Union has long debated the merits of Turkish EU membership. But now, nearly a decade after Islamists took the reins of power in Ankara, the central question is no longer whether Turkey should be integrated into Europe's economic and political structure, but rather whether Turkey should remain a part of the Western defense structure.
Recent developments suggest that while Turkey's military leadership remains committed to the state's secular, Western orientation and the defining principles of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the civilian Islamist government led by the Justice and Development Party (AKP) seems to have different ideas. Ankara is increasingly pursuing illiberal policies at home, for instance by attacking independent media, while aligning itself with militant, anti-western Middle East regimes abroad.
The latest demonstration of Ankara's political shift was its cancellation last month of Israel's long-standing participation in NATO military exercises in Turkey. Even worse, on the same day Israel was disinvited, Turkey announced imminent military exercises with Syria, a member of the U.S. list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism." These developments came just weeks after Ankara and Damascus established a "senior strategic cooperation council." These developments could signal the beginning of the end of Turkey's close military and economic cooperation with the Jewish state.
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Associated Press
Mr. Erdogan's new strategic partnerSyria's Bashar Assad
Ankara is simultaneously moving closer to the mullocracy in Tehran, even though the Islamic Republic is undermining stability in Afghanistan and Iraq by providing insurgents in both countries with explosives that are killing NATO and U.S. soldiers. The Iranian regime is also threatening to annihilate Israel, the very state Turkey is now distancing itself from. And yet Turkey and Iran have signed several security cooperation agreements over the past few years, and just two months ago, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hinted he would oppose sanctions against Iran, saying he "firmly believe[d] that the international community's concern over Iran's nuclear program should be eased." This past June, Turkish President Abdullah Gul was among the first to call Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to congratulate him on his fraudulent re-election.
Meanwhile at home, individual liberty and rule of law have gone by the wayside. The Islamist governmentin an effort to silence criticsattempts to bankrupt the independent and secularist Turkish media through extra-legal tax fines. The AKP government has also targeted political opponents by arresting them on dubious charges of attempting to overthrow the government.
Ankara's dramatic policy transformation seems inconsistent with the fundamental values that underpin the alliance. NATO partners are bound by the principles articulated in the 1949 charter, which affirm member states' "desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments...[a] determin[ation] to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilization of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law." Member states are also committed to "seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area."
As Ankara's politics shift, Turkey's willingness to take on politically difficult NATO missions could also diminish, bringing into question the commitment to "collective defense." While Turkey has deployed troops to the NATO mission in Afghanistan, it's unclear that Ankara would support NATO efforts to stem Russian pressure westward in Latvia or Lithuania. Judging from Turkey's equivocal position on Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, it seems unlikely that Turkey today would even consent to training missions in the Baltic States. Justifying his tilt toward Moscow, Mr. Erdogan said "we have an important trade volume [with Russia]. We would act in line with what Turkey's national interests require."
While Ankara's politics have changed, the military's pro-Western disposition reportedly has not. But over the past decade, the dynamics between the politicians and the general staff have been transformed. For better or worse, Western pressures have compelled the Turkish military to remain in the barracks, and refrain from interfering in political developments. Today, the Turkish military can do little but watch as the secular, democratic, pro-Western republic established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in the early 1900s is undermined.
While it's still too early to write Turkey out of NATO, in the not so distant future, the alliance will reach a decision point. In 2014, NATO's next generation fighter plane, the Joint Strike Fighter, will be delivered. Given the direction of Turkish politics, serious questions must be asked about whether the Islamist government in Ankara can be trusted with the highly advanced technology.
It's time that NATO start thinking about a worst case scenario in Turkey. For even if the increasingly Islamist state remains a NATO partner, at best, it seems Turkey will be an unreliable partner. Since the 1930s, the country has been a model of modernization and moderation in the Middle East. But absent a remarkable turnaround, it would appear that the West is losing Turkey. Should this occur, it would constitute the most dramatic development in the region since the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran.
Mr. Schenker is director of the Program in Arab Politics at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
Seeing that Turkey is well on its way to become the undisputed leader (bully) of the neighborhood and to pose a limiting counterwieght to Israel's irresponsible actions in the region, our new multi-directional strategic depth in foreign policy has already created tidal waves of panic among the Jews. Ha, don't you just love this? Jewish members of the world media are only just beginning to realize that IF Turkey and Iran cooperate effectively, Israel will be forever doomed to live under the shadow of Islam. Yeah, happy hanukkah motherfvckers!
And do you think this is a wise move? To replace an already established counterbalance with one that favors intimidating and aggravating a nuclear power whom does not really hesitate to use conventional force?
Unfortunately, the West supports Israel. So do the majority of nations that purchase arms and military training from her, such as Singapore, Burma, Thailand, Mexico and many in South America.
It seems like Turkey wanted to enter the EU because it would inevitably be the largest member after Germany, controlling a large vote and playing a major role in European foreign policy. The EU does not need Turkey to tell it what to do. Now Turkey is trying to place the Islam card and lead its Islamic neighbors in an economic/military bloc.
European entity vs an Islamic entity can only agitate Russia closer to Europe, and bring another major player against Turkey's attempt at gaining power. If this Islamic wave keeps on rising, other global players like China (with a large muslim population) and India into the the picture.
Looks like the USA needs to stay in Iraq just a bit longer.
"Turkey and Iran cooperate effectively, Israel will be forever doomed to live under the shadow of Islam."
lol
You're forgetting Israel
1) could probably kick your ass.
2) has the backing of the US, who certainly would kick your ass.
What do you think will happen if Turkey allies with Iran against Israel?
1. Turkey will be kicked out of NATO.
2. Turkey will stop getting weapons from the US. (No more F-35)
3. The US will start looking for another country in the Eastern Mediterranean to take Turkey's place as favored friend. Guess who that's probably going to be? Greece.
4. If Turkey takes any action against Israel, or pisses off the US, you'll have sanctions slapped on your ass.
5. Piss off the US enough, and you might even get a couple USN Carrier Battlegroups showing up off your coast, and NATO forces invading through Iraq and Thrace. Cyprus will probably use the opportunity to retake your occupied part of the island, and Greece will certainly push to have jurisdiction over Constantinople once the Turkish government is toppled.
In that case, please do become close friends with Ahmadinejad!
You're looking at just one side of the coin and completely ingoring the rest of the dynamics that move and shape global politics. Russia and China have their own problems and disagreemnts with the US and Europe. Actually a Middle East (and Black Sea) where the US influence is minimal works very well for Russia's long term plans of bringing back the regional influence it once enjoyed during the Soviet era. Chinese and American interests also collide on Iran's nuclear program and the status of Taiwan. Europe is an old continent with limited resources and geostrategic outreach. They need Turkey more thank Turkey needs them; mainly as a bridge to Middle East and newly emerging Central Asia taht is mainly Turkic. Kazakhstan and Turkey just recently signed a strategic cooperation agreement! Without Turkey, the EU would be completely dependent on Russia and no one in Europe wants that.
What the article is afraid of is or really saying is.
Fak we see Turkiye moving in the direction of true Ataturk principles.
We dont like it.
We cant control them.
They should always have tensions with their neighbours.
They should have no say in anything.
They are thinking independently.
They are moving out from our sphere,just like to be as us.
They are going back to the independent Ottoman/Ataturk principles.
The sleepers for 70 years are re awakening.
I could really go on
"What the article is afraid of is or really saying is.
Fak we see Turkiye moving in the direction of true Ataturk principles.
We dont like it.
We cant control them.
They should always have tensions with their neighbours.
They should have no say in anything.
They are thinking independently.
They are moving out from our sphere,just like to be as us.
They are going back to the independent Ottoman/Ataturk principles.
The sleepers for 70 years are re awakening.
I could really go on"
lol you're joking right?
Turkey is nothing more than a tool for the US. While you are useful, we will be friends. If you stop being useful, or become friends with our enemies, our friendship is over. Piss off the US enough, and we will swat you like a fly.
It is in your best interests to be part of NATO, and friends with the US. That's why I would love for Turkey to leave NATO and become allies with Iran. Because you're only screwing yourselves.
"You're forgetting Israel
1) could probably kick your ass.
2) has the backing of the US, who certainly would kick your ass.
What do you think will happen if Turkey allies with Iran against Israel?
1. Turkey will be kicked out of NATO.
2. Turkey will stop getting weapons from the US. (No more F-35)
3. The US will start looking for another country in the Eastern Mediterranean to take Turkey's place as favored friend. Guess who that's probably going to be? Greece.
4. If Turkey takes any action against Israel, or pisses off the US, you'll have sanctions slapped on your ass.
5. Piss off the US enough, and you might even get a couple USN Carrier Battlegroups showing up off your coast, and NATO forces invading through Iraq and Thrace. Cyprus will probably use the opportunity to retake your occupied part of the island, and Greece will certainly push to have jurisdiction over Constantinople once the Turkish government is toppled.
In that case, please do become close friends with Ahmadinejad!"
Some points to consider:
- Turkey won't be kicked out of NATO as they are too strategic right now.
- NATO's time is pretty much up. I don't give the "alliance". moore than 5 years. Afghanistan is the nail in the coffin.
- Why should Greece be America's new "little buddy"? Fvck the USA. They've never been Greece's friend and they are on the way out as the world superpower. They can play their geopolitical ganes without us. I remember the quote "sometimes it's more dangerous being the US's friend than enemy". They'll back stab you any chance they get.
- No sanctions will be put on Turkey (China and Russia would veto them).
- NOONE is invading Turkey. Just not worth it. Turks aren't Arabas. They will actually fight back.
The WSJ just proves the Jews and Us gov't control the US media. It's a good paper for a stock quotw, but their "reporting" is totally biased.
Okay, realistically speaking, Jews know that they have nobody else in the region to go to. Surrounded by historical-enemy Arabs and an (almost nuclear) Iran that wants to wipe it off of the map being not too far away, it has no choice but to remain allies with Turkey. There's no other country in the region that can fill Turkey's shoes from the Israeli perspective. Huge market, big population, a Muslim yet primarily western-oriented democracy that also happens to be very strategically located. Jews are blocked to the East and South (not counting the Red Sea); if they lose Turkey too, their only way out will be to the west, where there's only a big open sea and an island that's again partially controlled by Turkey.
These kinds of reactive rants from Jewish authors are normal so early in the game. They think they're testing Turkish response. Well, here's our response:
And they really can't do much with that. So they will have to suck it up and reeeaaaally consider the way they run their business in our neighborhood.
Hersh: US, Israel support PKK
Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:38:48 GMT
PKK Kurdish rebel group and its sister organization, PEJAK, have been receiving support from the US and Israel, an American journalist claims.
"In the past months, Israel and the United States have been working together in support of PKK and its Iranian offshoot PEJAK, I was told by a government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon," said Pulitzer Prize-winning, Seymour Hersh.
In an interview with Turkish gazette, Zaman, the leading American investigative journalist also revealed that the White House has lost control over PKK which has gone rogue.
Earlier, the renowned American journalist accused Washington and the Zionist regime of providing PKK and PEJAK with 'training and equipment' in a secret ploy to destabilize the region.
Commenting on PEJAK, Hersh asserted that Washington considers it as part of an effort to explore alternative means of applying pressure on Iran.
The Party for Free Life in Kurdistan (PEJAK) has been behind a string of deadly attacks on security forces in northwestern Iran. PEJAK is considered a terrorist group by Turkey, the United States, and the European Union.
that was a pretty sharp post, corpus. the only problem is that you're wrong about almost everything. don't overestimate the stability of turkey's power structures. don't underestimate the daring of israel or the true scope of america's dedication to zionism. america still makes reality, and turkey can still wind up on the wrong end of it.
rustbeltakis, bro the US thought the Iraqis would "throw flowers" at US troops. The US has shown to make huge miscalculations.
War with Turkey would be unlike anything the US has faced lately. The Turks are capable fighters. The US likes to conduct war through proxies; but who can they put up to fighting the Turks?
As for being committed to Zionism, that is true. But really really sad. The Bible thumping Baptists have a love for Israel and the Old Testament that broders on the clinically insane.
You guys claim to dislike them so much, yet you've sold off a significant amount of land to these people?
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yeah, there are rumours about it . But statistics tell otherwise.
Actually, according to our laws, foreigners can't hold more than 0.5% of avaible lands in any province. But there are work arounds, there are jews who are Turkish cizitens, plus, some 30% of israel's total population moved from Turkey, many of them could maintain their Turkish citizenship with dual passports. You can't legally avoid it, you can't limit sales on race basis.
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
This message has been edited by TheKhun on Nov 6, 2009 4:39 AM
iraq was conducted pitifully, you'll find no arguement from a sane american on that point. you also can't deny that we smashed everything, crippled an entire society, and killed tons of people. the actual invasion was a cakewalk- but my warning to corpus has little to do with the exercise of direct force against turkey by the US.
turkey has some very easily exploitable vulnerabilities- socially, politically, ethnically, economically, it remains a delicate state. this is exactly the kind of case where the US can apply what we euphemistically call 'soft power' to achieve a desired effect, or even just a punitive disruption. iran, by comparison, offers far fewer points of leverage for US diplomacy. we learned this game from the british empire, and in the mid-east we operate as one with israel. CIA and mossad, along with the WTO, IMF, and lots of other anglo-zionist acronyms, could tear turkey to shreds without military force.
i mean, who do these turks think they are. this is a foolish gambit for erdo. i predict he will back off before the sheit hits the fan.
"don't underestimate the daring of israel or the true scope of america's dedication to zionism"
I don't think I am, but thanks for the warning. Another thing to watch for is overestimating them. As Barba has mentioned the US isn't exactly the best of what's around in calculating the consequences of one's actions, and that particular weakness has hurt them time and again. Middle East is one of the most politically-complex regions in the world and Turkey knows its dynamics very well, we're a part of it and the whole place was under our control just a few generations ago. We know the players and we know the culture. Turkey CAN do what it's intending to do in a decade or two, but it'll take very strict discipline in foreign policy and political (as well as economical) stability.
Still, don't make the mistake of counting Turkey out of the Western Sphere just yet! It'll remain as a member of NATO (and US ally, at least on paper) for the foreseeable future and continue to pursue EU membership for a number of reasons, least of which is to "appear" as an "ally" of the EU as well. Turkey will also remain secular regardless of its increasingly-Islamic Middle East policy; something that is required for Turkey to be able to play all sides. TSK will again continue to have enormous power in internal politics, but with an increased understanding and tolerance of Turkey's new AKP-led omni-directional foreign policy, which they've come to call Strategic Depth.
Relations with Russia is also improving at a very rapid pace parallel to the trade volume between the two countries. Huge steps have been taken with Iraq and Syria and several projects are underway with Armenia and Greece. People think the raproachment with Armenia is at the expense of our good relations with Azerbaijan but that is just at the surface. Azerbaijan and Turkey are natural allies underneath it all and will always be aligned against Armenia in the long run. Azeris understand that Turkey's role in the region is changing and she must play her cards differently now, but as always the public cannot be let to have its own opinion so the controlling parties step in to try and keep the smoke and mirrors running so when the Armenians realize Turkey's greater plan, it'll be too late.
And of course Greece is a different and a much longer story.
"turkey has some very easily exploitable vulnerabilities- socially, politically, ethnically, economically, it remains a delicate state. this is exactly the kind of case where the US can apply what we euphemistically call 'soft power' to achieve a desired effect,"
Excellent analysis there and I have to admit that I agree. But again, the U.S. is very much prone to miscalculation. Turkey isn't Iraq and Turks are most definitely not Arabs. Turkey has been through it all. Leftists, rightists, Kemalists, Islamists, middle of the line'ers... Military coups, political turmoils, economic crises and even ambargos. Been there, done that. The people have gotten their education very well and have grown less and less prone to manipulation by the U.S. That's why Americans thought they could just walk past Turkey into Iraq and (not so surprisingly) they were wrong. When it's against our national interests, Turkey will not care who's on the other end of the line. We can and will say no and the U.S. is no exception.
In short, we are still "not there", by a large margin.
Let's stop seeing ourselves in the "giant's mirror" and be a bit more realistic.
History is full of examples in which the delusions of grandeur of a few politicians have damaged the lives of millions of civilians. Foreign policy needs a lot of delicate balance and responsibility. And realism, first and foremost.
Interesting, isn't it; how the "moderate Muslim democrats" of 2002 (AKP) have all of a sudden become "Islamists" today in the eyes of the jewish capital, which brought/kept these "moderate-muslims" to/in power.
You simply reap what you sow..
But one also has to see the larger picture here. If you think Erdo went to Iran solely to discuss Turkish interests, you are a moron as one can get. He went there to negotiate as the messenger of Uncle Sam. Now the messenger will be reporting back to his master:
Obama to welcome Turkish prime minister on Dec. 7
(AP) Oct 29, 2009
WASHINGTON President Barack Obama will meet with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Dec. 7. The White House announced the meeting Thursday.
Press secretary Robert Gibbs says Obama looks forward to discussing a broad range of issues with Erdogan, including strategies for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Middle East peace efforts, human rights and halting the spread of nuclear weapons.
(Reuters) - President Barack Obama said America was prepared to extend a hand of peace to Iran if it "unclenched its fist" and that the time was ripe for Israel and the Palestinians to resume peace negotiations.
Mark my words; Iran will halt its nuclear weapon ambitions, in return the embargoes will be lifted and the Iranian gas will flow to West via Turkey (Nabucco).
So everyone wins;
Obama wins for saving Israel
Ahmedinejad wins for securing his position and the fate of the Islamic republic
Erdo wins - the Davos fatihi becomes the Conqueror of Middle east (at least in Turkey) and secures his position, and on his way to Cankaya.
It's a win-win for everyone involved.
International politics is a dirty game... you'll need more than brains to be able to play it..
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"Freedom and independence is my character."
~M. Kemal Ataturk
The transition from military (Ataturk/Secular/call it what you want) influenced government to a civilian (Political/Commercial) focused government is an interesting point to bring up for Turkey's "emergence." This can be seen in the alliance shift as a traditional military ally Israel is being replaced with commercial allies such as Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.
Negative opinion for Turkey is coming from those that supported the secular/military government that they helped establish and secure to aid in Western/NATO containment of the Soviet Union/Communism. Turkey no longer posses' its former role. Its easy to see why the Turkish public would thus vote for a party more closer to its average citizen (moderate muslims) than parties that defended NATO's southern flank.
Turkey's best interest is to drift from its former allies and find new economic/cultural friends, albeit alienating herself from her former allies. No use for Turkey in the west, so she looks east. But being a representative of the east means that you are going to get backlashed and pushed around by the West.
"Turkey is indeed on the way to become a major regional (on a global scale) power. "
LOL. You turks keep on saying that, but back it up. In what ways is Turkey becoming a 'major regional power'?
Economically? Don't be kidding! Turkish Aggregate GDP is practically Third World. Most of your people live on a poverty level by European standards.
Militarily? Turkey has a large conscript army, but it's weapons are hardly cutting edge. Air Force has numbers of aircraft, but many our Third Generation at best with poor maintennance. Navy is not even at level of small neighbor Greece and port facilities are mediocre. Turkey has a patrol navy, not a blue ocean navy.
Diplomatically? No nation has ignored more UN resolutions than Turkey. Your country has a poor reputation on human rights, religious rights, respect for international law and so on.
Turkey is a POPULOUS NATION, not a powerful nation. There is a difference.
Dolphins dominate (Login emperor-attila) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Jew Street Journal: A NATO Without Turkey?
November 6 2009, 3:36 PM
if we have nukes and missiles who gives a fukk to nato.
Turkiye must quit from nato and get her own nukes ...
Dolphins dominate (Login flyturkish) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Jew Street Journal: A NATO Without Turkey?
November 6 2009, 4:06 PM
The Military will take meters in its own hands very soon no doubt about that . The AKP has to be removed from power
- Turkey won't be kicked out of NATO as they are too strategic right now.
- NATO's time is pretty much up. I don't give the "alliance". moore than 5 years. Afghanistan is the nail in the coffin.
- Why should Greece be America's new "little buddy"? Fvck the USA. They've never been Greece's friend and they are on the way out as the world superpower. They can play their geopolitical ganes without us. I remember the quote "sometimes it's more dangerous being the US's friend than enemy". They'll back stab you any chance they get.
- No sanctions will be put on Turkey (China and Russia would veto them).
- NOONE is invading Turkey. Just not worth it. Turks aren't Arabas. They will actually fight back."
1. And if they change allegience from USA/Israel to Iran? At the height of the Cold War, China was strategically important. Doesn't mean they would be welcomed into NATO as long as they were Communist. If Turkey turns away from her NATO allies and pursues interests contrary to NATO's interests, they will not be very welcome in NATO anymore.
2. It may not be as cohesive, but the countries in NATO will continue to be allies of each other and the US. If Afghanistan is the nail in the coffin, that speaks poorly on the NATO countries that decide to quit.
3. Sure, I understand anti-American sentiment in Greece. Because for decades, Turkey has been favored by the US. But if the US were to start favoring Greece over Turkey, would Greece really turn that down? As for "they'll back stab you any chance they get", again you're saying that because Greece HASN'T been favored by the US. How many times has the US stabbed Turkey in the back in conflicts with Greece? Turkey thumbed it's nose at the US by not letting US forces go through Turkey to invade Iraq, but did the US do anything to them? The US even lets Turkey cross the border to attack Kurds in Iraq. Being that "little buddy" as you put it has it's benefits.
4. You have a point about Russia and China vetoing sanctions.
5. Well then, Greece might as well just roll over and surrender to Turkey right now. I mean, the Turks actually fight, so if even the US would be afraid to fight them, surely Greece would have no chance, right? What kind of attitude is that? "The Turks will actually fight, so let's all be scared of them." Nonsense.
i see some turks in here saying that turkey is essentially 'not ready for primetime' and that erdo is jumping the gun and trying to flex muscles that really don't exist yet.
they could'nt be more right.
the mid-east has been run by the west since sykes-picot, and modern turkey has been played like a fiddle by america(read british empire/zionist project) via NATO for the last 60 years or so. that will not change because erdo sticks his dik in the wind. turkey is still too reliant on the US in defense, and on wall street/washington controlled organizations for economic stability. i actually think AKP are pretty crafty, and the motives here just don't add up. there's more than meets to eye to this little gambit, but i think it is mostly diversionary and intended for regional muslim psychological consmption.
This message has been edited by rustbeltakis on Nov 7, 2009 3:33 AM
Dolphins dominate (Login yasin22) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Jew Street Journal: A NATO Without Turkey?
November 7 2009, 4:02 AM
"The Military will take meters in its own hands very soon no doubt about that . The AKP has to be removed from power"
this will never happen because they did nothing wrong and the only thing can remove them is if they plot them which is what the usa and israel is trying to do because they dont want us to be the boss of the m.e end of story. You rather some one sucking yum yum c0ck then make them suck your yum yum c0ck
This message has been edited by yasin22 on Nov 7, 2009 4:09 AM
"The Military will take meters in its own hands very soon no doubt about that . The AKP has to be removed from power"
Military has been defanged in Turkey. The door has been thrown open on the media and they won't allow closing it again. Unless the AKP commits treason, they're in office for good.
Ankara's Islamist government is turning away from the Western alliance.
By DAVID SCHENKER
actually this is not accurate, Ankara never turned away from the Western alliance because in reality Ankara never belonged to it in the first place. The participation of Ankara to the Western alliance was based on wishful thinking that Turkey will change face embracing the western values this never happened in reality Turkeys adherence to NATO was just a political game the actual value of this participation was from small to non existent, in reality Turkey had always been acting as a beggar demanding for more and offering nothing in return to the west, the expectations of those who wanted to promote a more active cooperation of the west with Turkey using it as a potential ally in order to act in accordance with the western values and contrary to Islamic fontamentalistic states in the political and military field have been clearly betrayed.
This message has been edited by ontyseas on Nov 7, 2009 7:09 PM This message has been edited by ontyseas on Nov 7, 2009 7:07 PM
Seeing that Turkey is well on its way to become the undisputed leader (bully) of the neighborhood and to pose a limiting counterwieght to Israel's irresponsible actions in the region
dreams r tax free ... keep on
SURRENDER OF PAKI ARMY IN 1971
1N 1971 A NEW HISTORY AS WELL AS A NEW NATION WAS CREATED BY WE THE INDIANS..
"1. And if they change allegience from USA/Israel to Iran? At the height of the Cold War, China was strategically important. Doesn't mean they would be welcomed into NATO as long as they were Communist. If Turkey turns away from her NATO allies and pursues interests contrary to NATO's interests, they will not be very welcome in NATO anymore."
NATO is done as an alliance. I don't know when Afghanistan will finish, but after that mission, NATO will be fundamentally altered. I believe an "abglo-saxon" bloc of the US, Canada, the UK and Australia will form, along with some "stooge" countries as sidekicks.
"2. It may not be as cohesive, but the countries in NATO will continue to be allies of each other and the US. If Afghanistan is the nail in the coffin, that speaks poorly on the NATO countries that decide to quit."
Why wouldn't they "quit"? NATO has become a tool of modern US foreign policy. Countries like France, Germany and Greece have no use for it. An EU force will form over time.
"3. Sure, I understand anti-American sentiment in Greece. Because for decades, Turkey has been favored by the US. But if the US were to start favoring Greece over Turkey, would Greece really turn that down? As for "they'll back stab you any chance they get", again you're saying that because Greece HASN'T been favored by the US. How many times has the US stabbed Turkey in the back in conflicts with Greece? Turkey thumbed it's nose at the US by not letting US forces go through Turkey to invade Iraq, but did the US do anything to them? The US even lets Turkey cross the border to attack Kurds in Iraq. Being that "little buddy" as you put it has it's benefits."
Greece will NEVER be close to the USA. They have simply done too much bad to us. For fvcks sake we're supposed to be NATO allies yet they recognize FYROM as "Macedonia". The US has always needed Turkey; look for things to change now.
"4. You have a point about Russia and China vetoing sanctions."
China is an emerging superpower. They will increasingly take more and more charge of the world.
"5. Well then, Greece might as well just roll over and surrender to Turkey right now. I mean, the Turks actually fight, so if even the US would be afraid to fight them, surely Greece would have no chance, right? What kind of attitude is that? "The Turks will actually fight, so let's all be scared of them." Nonsense."
Did I say Turkey would beat the US? NO! Because the wouldn't. The US has a war "threshold"; that is the US public and electorate is only willing to take so many casualties in war/combat. I think a war with Turkey (if it went to the ground) would pass that threshold. If the US wanted it could send Turkey into the stone age using air power alone. But on the ground I think the US would lose more troops than the US public is willing to lose (especially after Iraq and Afghanistan).
Current Topic - Jew Street Journal: A NATO Without Turkey?
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