No hand shakes yet on US gunship sale
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Tuesday, November 10, 2009
ÜMT ENGNSOY
ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

U.S. President Barack Obama's administration wants to sell the Turkish military a limited number of AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters, yet the two countries still need to resolve several matters before the transfer can take place.

Turkey needs the helicopters as a stopgap solution until mid-2010 when it begins receiving T129 gun ships presently being manufactured by Italian-British company AgustaWestland and its Turkish partners.

On Oct. 23, U.S. Ambassador to Ankara James Jeffrey said Washington had agreed to the sale, according to Turkish press reports. The Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review has learned that the ambassador was voicing the Obama administration's support for the sale, but that several details still needed clarification.

This is not a done deal yet, said one Ankara-based industry official familiar with the matter. U.S. and Turkish officials are now working to resolve several things, including availability matters, the number of platforms, the price and other details. The U.S. administration can seek congressional approval once it sorts out these details.

Any large-scale U.S. arms sale requires Congress' approval. In January Turkey's procurement agency formally asked the U.S. government for the sale of about 10 helicopters. Bell Helicopter Textron, maker of the Super Cobra, is not building any AH-1Ws while it begins to upgrade the U.S. Marine Command's nearly 170 AH-1Ws to the Z model.

Long search for upgrades

Turkey has been informally seeking to buy a few of the U.S. Marines Super Cobras since 2007.

Former President George W. Bush's administration had opposed such a transfer, saying the Marines, involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, needed all of the aircraft. It had instead offered the sale of the U.S. military's AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters.

Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches, however, Turkish officials rejected the offer and insisted on a small number of Super Cobras.

The Turkish military is presently believed to be operating six AH-1Ws.

Turkey acquired its current AH-1Ws from the United States in the early 1990s. It originally had 10, but four of them either crashed or went out of use.

In 2000 Ankara selected Bell Helicopter Textron for its joint production program for at least 50 helicopters, but a contract could never be signed because of disputes over price and technology transfer, so the Turkish procurement office canceled the program in 2005. In a renewed tender in 2007, Ankara selected AgustaWestland for the T129s joint production. The aircrafts first test flight was in late September, but deliveries will not begin for five or six years.

In addition to its current six double-engine AH-1Ws, the Turkish military is also operating more than 20 AH-1Ps, an earlier model in the Cobra family. This single-engine platform, however, is considerably inferior to the Super Cobra in terms of maneuverability, operational altitude and firepower.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=no-hand-shakes-yet-on-us-gunship-sale-2009-11-09

"Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches, however, Turkish officials rejected the offer and insisted on a small number of Super Cobras."


"In 2000 Ankara selected Bell Helicopter Textron for its joint production program for at least 50 helicopters, but a contract could never be signed because of disputes over price and technology transfer, so the Turkish procurement office canceled the program in 2005."


Glad to see Turkey doesn't let herself get sacked like the griks


- Apaches: too expensive, difficult to maintain, not useful for us
- joint production with Bell: no tech transfer, thus no source codes, no marketing and intellectual property rights, probably too overpriced...

"It had instead offered the sale of the U.S. military's AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters.

Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches, however, Turkish officials rejected the offer and insisted on a small number of Super Cobras."

LOL

Stupid Turks. We offer you the Apache Longbow, the most advanced attack helicopter in the world, and you say "No thanks. We can't maintain it. It's too advanced for us. Give us a few of your old Cobras." You guys sure love your 60's/early 70's American military technology.

I don't know why the Marines even still use it. Make a Marine version of the Apache.

^^ Stupid donkey griks still don't get it


The US was very cooperative in supplying AH-64A+ Apache attack helicopters to the Greek army. Greece was the first NATO user of the equipment, after all, but the helicopter deal proved problematic in many respects, the least of which was its overpricing.

First, the self-protection suit of the helicopters was not complete and was very much delayed in becoming so. The US tried to deter any efforts by the Greek army to replace the most obsolete parts of this suit (such as the M-130 flare dispensers) with more modern, custom-made ones (AN/ALE-47), even though the US army had already done the same! Then, the Forward Looking Infra-Red sensors (a night-vision system) of the Apache Target Acquisition and Designation System (TADS) had only a fraction of the advertised performance over sea, which rendered them practically unusable for half of the Greek armys envisioned missions. Third, the helicopters were supplied with a package of weaponry and ammunition that could not be less suited to Greek needs, namely, the AGM-114F Improved Hellfire antitank (AT) missile, 2.75 unguided rockets, and 30mm-cannon ammunition.

The supplied model of the antitank missile had the least range of any of its existing models for a slight increase in destructiveness (two unevenly sized High Explosive Anti-Tank [HEAT] warheads in tandem), as it was designed to strike Soviet tanks with reactive armor. For the Greeks, whose main armor targets Turkish tanks had no such protection, this was obviously overkill, which however decreased the launch range and made the launching helicopters more vulnerable to antiaircraft fire. The Greek preference would have been for the earlier AGM-114B/C models, with a simple HEAT warhead and an increase in range of one kilometer (to eight instead of seven for the F model), but this option was denied to Greece.


No thanks. Nothing more than trouble those apaches. It doesn't even suit gayreece's needs

Best thing we ever did was deny The Cobta and Apache, for A-129 with Tech transfer, full rights to export, Development of anti tank missiles, development of Avionics, developments for a MMW radar (like longbow) and development of mission computer aswell as many other things such as the FLIR and more...

Griko Immigrant who thinks he talks for the Americans, take the apache and stick it up your ass.

---

On 12 June 1992, a Greek Mirage F-1C crashed during a dogfight with a Turkish F-16 piloted by Capt. Ilhan Filiz.

On 8 October 1996, a Greek Mirage-2000 piloted by Thanos Grivas shot down a Turkish F-16D with a Magic IR missile.

Just two days after that murder, on 10 October 1996 a Greek Mirage-2000 crashed close to Semadirek island after a dogfight with two Turkish F-16s.

Point of the story is: TUAF saved itself two missiles.

On May 23rd 2006, Two Greek F-16 fighters Scrambeled to intercept two Turkish F-16s that was escorting a Recon aircraft over the southern Aegean, After a short Mock-dogfight the Greek F-16 colided into the Turkish F-16. Turkish Pilot Lieutenant Halil Ibrahim Özdemir Ejected safely while the Greek pilot Lieutenant Konstantinos Kakkavas died instantly.

On December 4th 2007, a Greek F-16C participated in a night exercise in the Sporades archipelago, the pilot Lieutenant Athanasios Batsaras lost orientation thinking he was gaining altitude instead flew his aircraft into the sea. Athanasios Batsaras body was found latter on by a Turkish frigate which responded to the emergency call.

Point of the story is: Greeks don't know how to Fly.

On June 3rd 2003, a Greek F-16 block 30 Piloted by Captain Theodoros Pliatsikas crashed when a Bird was sucked into the air intake causing Engine Failure. Captain Theodoros Pliatsikas however was lucky enough to Eject and survived the incident with minor injury.

On June 4th 2009, a single seater Greek F-16 block 50 crashed in Ioannina after the plane ingested a bird. The pilot managed to eject from the plane with minor injury.

Point of the story is: Birds 2 Greeks -2 F-16s

The US tried to deter any efforts by the Greek army to replace the most obsolete parts of this suit (such as the M-130 flare dispensers) with more modern, custom-made ones (AN/ALE-47)...


See, the Americans are smart. They know the nature of greks and try to trick them with fancy words like 'ANALE' etc... Ofcourse the griks were sold after hearing that word .

And yet you BEGGED Bush for some 2nd hand Cobras. Why the Cobra and not the more advanced Apache? Not because of the missiles, but because you couldn't maintain them. The Apache was too advanced, and you couldn't handle them. So you said "give us some Cobras. They're older and less advanced, so we can handle those." (Except you can't, because you seem to keep losing the ones you bought the 1st time)

As for the missiles, I'm sure those are the ones that came standard on the AH-64A at the time. And I can see why the US would want Greece, a NATO ally, to have missiles designed to defeat Russian tanks, not the tanks of another NATO country like Turkey. I'm sure the same thing applies to you.
But that's the A variant. Greece now has the AH-64D Longbow. The Longbow has it's own version of the Hellfire that's designed to work with the Longbow FCR. It has the same range as the older hellfires you said Greece should have gotten, it's a fire and forget weapon, it can be fired from behind cover like trees, and one Longbow can guide the missiles from other Apaches that the enemy doesn't even see.

Don't worry about Greece not having good enough missiles for our Apaches. While you guys are flying around in your obsolete SuperCobras originally designed in the 60's and based on the Huey, you won't even see the Greek Longbow that fires the missile that destroys your tanks, let alone have a chance to shoot it down.

"And yet you BEGGED Bush for some 2nd hand Cobras."

You don't beg somebody for helicopters and then require technology transfer, installing Turkish avionics and mission computer, etc. People offer you something and then you set conditions before you accept their offer. They don't go alogn with your conditions, fine, then you go after the alternatives. As Turkey has wisely done.

Turk Bir Dev

I really don't think these helicopters are an URGENT requirement anymore. If they were, something very bad would have happened in the last 15 or so years that they've been dubbed "urgent." I think we should tell the Yanks to shove their 10-year-old junks up their asses and wait until the brand new T-129s roll out. Exercise the optional +40 gunships as well and in the end have a much larger and more capable helicopter fleet with a bunch of indigenous extras and no strings attached.

Turk Bir Dev

lol

"Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches, however, Turkish officials rejected the offer and insisted on a small number of Super Cobras."
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What else to say?

Corpus, it says it right here:

"Turkey has been informally seeking to buy a few of the U.S. Marines Super Cobras since 2007.

Former President George W. Bush's administration had opposed such a transfer, saying the Marines, involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, needed all of the aircraft. It had instead offered the sale of the U.S. military's AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters.

Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches, however, Turkish officials rejected the offer and insisted on a small number of Super Cobras."

Turks: "Please give us some more Super Cobras. We need them until we get our Italian helicopters."
Bush: "The Super Cobra isn't even made anymore. We're using all of ours. How about some Apaches instead? They're the most advanced Longbow variant."
Turks: "No thanks. Unlike Greece, we can't maintain such advanced helicopters. We MUST have the old Super Cobras!"

lol

Its normal for Turkey to reject the AH-64 for the simple fact that we operate AH-1W/P's, we dont have builtup spares inventory for AH-64's, we dont have mechanics trained to maintian AH-64's, we dont have pilots trained to fly AH-64's.

It doenst mean the capability cant ever be established like you halfbrained twats interpret it, but merely that it doesnt make economical sense to invest in the money and energy to introduce yet another type into inventory. This makes even more sense when you consider that this is only a stopgap solution, our long term plans are to only operate T-149's, so why would Turkey deal with the headache for a platform that will barely be in use for 5-6 years? If you were smart you would know the answer, if you were Greek you would think that the Turkish military doesnt have the capability to do so, when it operates, maintains and upgrades F-16's.



I Hail The Flag

lol

You gypsies don´t have money to buy enough AIM120 & spare parts for your F-16,what makes you think you can maintain most expensive and most advanced battle helicopter of the world?

Well said, DDDB.

Turk Bir Dev

cobras there not bad gun ships if the marines are still using them must be that good the cobra and now they are upgrading it to ah1z level

To GK87,

FYI Greece doesn't have the MMW type Hellfire missile nor did she order them (one of those malaka misteries of Greece, buying longbow heli but not the longbow missiles )

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

I' m old enough to follow the progress of the turkish attack hellicopter program, so let me give my two cents...

The reasons behind denying AH-64 are multiple.

a)Turkey wanted since the mid 90s to develop/co-produce a large number of attack hellis. This number was later defined as 145 (1999 i think).

b)They already had some 32 AH-1P/S (single engine) and later they purchased some AH-1W (initial 12 now 6)mainly for their eastern operations. Thus introducing another (expensive) type into their armory wouldn't be a wise choise. This is why they always tried for more -Ws but they were unlucky since the operational need for those didnt let US to sell them. Also possibly US was trying to push some AH-64 by denying those -Ws.

c)Turkey used to have an offensive doctrine in western thrace, where attack hellis mainly act as a defensive multiplier. This is the main reason NATO forces developed AH-64 during the late 70s early 80s, to cope with the vast numbers of soviet armor. Turks didnt need a tank-killer or at least it was not their main priority.

d)Even the newer T-129 mainly cope with that doctrine (lighter, less armor, less capable in anti-armor roles), and possibly are mainly targeted for the eastern operations.

e)After the almost collapse of the turkish economy in the late 90s, early 00s many programs were postponed, and the purchase of an expensive attack helli was out of the question. Practicaly all those years Turkey is strugling with its operational need, not being able to deploy more than a handfull of operational hellis in the difficult environment of mountainous eastern turkey.

e)So practicaly the Turks remained faithfull to their original aims for an indigenous light attack helli, and they didnt reach for an easy but possibly expensive interim solution.

f)Nonetheless the above clearly indicate that the Turks are way behind in anti-armor helli tactics since they lack both the means and the doctrine. So it is usefull for the Turkish WAFFers to realize that after receiving those T-129 they will need some years to develop the tactics, on which the greeks have already a _15year-long_ lead.

What you pay is what you get.

BTW those -Ws are not cheap since the 5 of those cost $100mio, but if they bought the AH-64 they will need all the infrastracture too.

cheers

The only tactics the Greeks practiced was a war on mice.

Which developed tactics are you talking about, you import everything even the tactic simulators.

In their anti armor duties the T-129 will be far above the Greek AH64D's since T129's will have much more varieted weaponry, from light laserguided CIRIT to heavy laser, IR and MMW guided UMTAS with a far better FCS system. Greece has to bring the Apache to the block-III standard to be a match.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

"FYI Greece doesn't have the MMW type Hellfire missile nor did she order them (one of those malaka misteries of Greece, buying longbow heli but not the longbow missiles"

Proof? I read that Greece was asking the US for Hellfire 2 missiles (the K version, not the L version. But still way better than the F version. And I assume we would order the L version as well), and this was from a few years ago.

Greece ordered some 650 K types, no L types. So practically you have a radar which may help in battlefield situational awareness but no L type missiles that can be used without being detected. You always have to be in line of sight to point the laser or ground crews have to do it for you.

In other words you just don't use the possibilities of the Longbow MMW guidance.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

Vlix yourt ideas real worth less then 2 cents. You should check on them and update them immediatly.

"Greece ordered some 650 K types, no L types. So practically you have a radar which may help in battlefield situational awareness but no L type missiles that can be used without being detected. You always have to be in line of sight to point the laser or ground crews have to do it for you.

In other words you just don't use the possibilities of the Longbow MMW guidance."

Right, well then, K version, that's alot better than the F version JNG was talking about. Better than the B/C versions he was saying Greece wanted. And better than whatever you have for your old Super Cobras I'm sure.

Don't worry Nutuk. It's a simple matter to order some AGM-114Ls. Maybe we'll do it when you guys finally get your Italian helicopter and start to catch up to our helicopter forces, so we can jump ahead again.

"Saying that Turkey had no capabilities to maintain the Apaches"


Do I smell OWNAGE?






Seal of the great and respected House of Laskareon, Komnenon, Palaiologon, Aggelon of Byzantium. In Christ, believers of God.

Emperors of the Romans, Vandals, and all of Anatolia.

I take my words back, no 650 Hellfire missiles seems that Greece cancelled that order or the US. I assume Ohi money!

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

lol

http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Greece-Requests-AGM-114K1-Hellfire-II-Missiles_n000001012.aspx

Released on Wednesday, September 27, 2006

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Greece of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $66 million.

The Government of Greece has requested a possible sale of 633 AGM-114K1 HEAT Hellfire II missiles, 24 AGM-114M1 Blast Fragmentation Warhead Missiles, 3 M36E Hellfire II Training missiles, 3 M34 Hellfire drill missiles, publications, technical support, and related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $66 million.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^
This was LOR

LOA was signed one year later;
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2007/011007_GreeceandUSSignAgreement.html

GREECE AND U.S. SIGN AGREEMENT FOR SALE OF ADDITIONAL LOCKHEED MARTIN HELLFIRE II MISSILES


ORLANDO, FL, October 2nd, 2007 -- The governments of Greece and the United States have signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the sale of additional Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] precision-strike laser-guided HELLFIRE II® missiles to Greece. The agreement authorizes the sale of multiple warhead variants of the modular HELLFIRE II, with options, for the Hellenic Armys AH-64 Apache and the Hellenic Navys SH-60B Seahawk helicopters. Contract value and deliverables were not disclosed.

We are honored that the Hellenic Army and Navy have once again selected HELLFIRE II missiles to equip their Apache and Seahawk fleets in defense of their borders, said Ken Musculus, Lockheed Martin Air-to-Ground Missile Systems program director. We look forward to supporting the Hellenic Forces in their initiative to expand their HELLFIRE warhead inventory for multi-mission capability. HELLFIRE II currently offers three warhead variants to engage a broad target set, while minimizing collateral damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not surprising that turcos live in 3D denial,lol.

"The Government of Greece has requested a possible sale of 633 AGM-114K1 HEAT Hellfire II missiles"

Request for possible sale... DSCA ? Any official statement ?


Our 3D's are your nightmares Gayreeks...

3Dcaba,do you clown know what a LOA is?lol

The Government of Turkey has requested a possible sale for the modernization of 218 F-16 aircraft. This proposed sale will modify 104 F-16 Block 40, 76 F-16 Block 50 and 38 F-16 Block 30 aircraft. The proposed sale will include the following MDE items for integration and testing:

180 AN/APG-68(V)9 radars;
7 full mission trainers for upgrade/replacement;
200 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
.
.
.
.
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2004/Turkey_05-12.pdf

---------------------------------------------------------------------
and Signiture...

Turkey signs contract for F-16 fleet modernisation

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/12/330909/turkey-signs-contract-for-f-16-fleet-modernisation.html


What is the differences between yours and ours ?

turco morons become masters of so called ostrich tactics;



They even can change LOR to LOA with 3Ds,lol.

Yeahh.. You got it !!!


Owned !!!

Apaches are too costly to maintain for 5 years; we will have T129s so they are an unnecessary expense. Also, Apaches are not suitable for use against anti-guerilla warfare, Super Cobras do the job much better.

I am not joking, Greece never received those 650 missiles and it looks like the deal has been cancelled.


--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

A very good MILITARY thread.No matter how much u love flaming,its better to try own the other side
with arguments and facts.Good job gentlemen!

"What is the differences between yours and ours ?"

If you mean hardware, Iris-T. If you mean in general, HAF pilots > TuAF pilots.

Special between Yannis and us ... Yannis got it...

This is specially for our 3D brothers with less than zero IQ,nutuk and caba;


http://www.dsca.mil/cust_guide2006/CG-05-TheLetterOfOfferAndAcceptance.htm

THE LETTER OF OFFER AND ACCEPTANCE (LOA)
WHAT WILL WE DO WITH YOUR LOR?
Once we receive your LOR, the USG will take several actions. Depending on your request, an appropriate response might be, an addition to one of your existing FMS cases, a new sale LOA, etc. For the purposes of this guide, we will assume that an LOA is the most appropriate response to your request---therefore, the following USG actions would be taken:
Acknowledge Receipt: Within five days of receipt of a valid LOR, the U.S. Implementing Agency (IA) will acknowledge receipt of your LOR.

Request More Information: If information is unclear or is missing from your LOR, you will be contacted to provide the missing information. While, it may be possible to continue limited processing of some portions of the request, a complete response from the USG may be delayed until the information is provided or the request amended.

Assign a FMS Case Identifier: A FMS case identifier is assigned to each LOR. A case identifier consists of a Country Code, the IA code of the U.S. agency developing your FMS case and, a unique three-position FMS case designator. For example, BN-B-UXP is a FMS case for Bandaria (BN-a make-believe country) being prepared by the U.S. Army (B is the Implementing Agency code for the U.S. Army). The UXP denotes a particular FMS case for this country.

Assign a FMS Case Manager: A FMS Case Manager is assigned to every FMS case and is responsible for ensuring that the FMS case meets your requirements as identified in your LOR. The FMS Case Manager acts as the coordinator for both development of the FMS case, and the subsequent execution, or performance of the FMS case. If you have questions about the development progress of your FMS case, they should be directed to the appropriate FMS Case Manager. DSCA has assigned a Country Program Director (CPD) for each country and the IAs may also assign a Country Program Director for your programs. These managers may also be contacted if you have questions concerning the progress of your FMS case.

Review Releasability Issues: Part of the USG review process involves determining if the technology involved is releasable for export. The releasability review takes place for both FMS sales (government to government) and for Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) that are directly negotiated between your country and a specific manufacturer. If the sale involves a system with technology that has not been previously approved for export, this process will generally take longer than if the system has already been reviewed and approved for export. An LOA will not be written for systems that you are not eligible to receive.

Notify the U.S. Congress: There are many U.S. laws that the FMS case Manager must comply with as the FMS case is being developed. If the FMS case is expected to exceed $14 million ($25 million for NATO, Australia, New Zealand and Japan SAMM C5.T11) of Major Defense Equipment (MDE), or will exceed a total FMS case value of $50 million ($100 million for NATO, Australia, New Zealand and Japan SAMM C5.T11) ($200 million ($300 million for NATO, Australia, New Zealand and Japan SAMM C5.T11) for construction cases), then the U.S. Congress must be notified of the prospective sale. This notification process must be completed before the FMS case can be countersigned by DSCA and formally offered to your country for consideration. When the official notification of a sale has been made to the U.S. Congress, this information is normally posted on the DSCA Web page.



WHAT WILL THE LOA LOOK LIKE?
As stated earlier, the LOA is the government-to-government agreement that identifies the defense articles and services that the USG proposes to sell to you to meet the requirements identified in your LOR. The LOA spells out all of the terms and conditions that will apply. Much of the content, especially the Standard Terms and Conditions, is dictated by U.S. law. We have included a sample LOA which you can see in C5.F2 in chapter 5 of the SAMM. SAMM table C5.F7 contains the Standard Terms and Conditions.
There are three basic types of FMS cases. The type used depends on what is being sold. These are:

Defined Order: This type of FMS case is for defense articles, services and training that are specified in your LOR and stated explicitly in the LOA. This type would most likely be used for a weapon system sale.
Blanket Order: This type of FMS case is used to purchase a specific category of items or services at a set dollar value ceiling with no definitive listing of the exact items or quantities desired. This type would most likely be used for follow-on support.
Cooperative Logistics Supply Support Arrangement (CLSSA): CLSSA is a unique arrangement where you are able to invest in the U.S. supply system and receive access to DoD stocks. This arrangement involves two separate FMS cases. The first FMS case covers your investment in specific USG supply system items. The second FMS case is used to requisition these items.
LOA Sections: Your LOA will be made up of several sections. The first page will be an overview of the proposal and will include a space for the signatures of our USG representative and your government. It will provide a total cost estimate and will identify any initial deposit that might be required upon acceptance. The first page will also reflect the Terms of Sale (i.e., CASH WITH ACCEPTANCE, FMS CREDIT, etc.) and will identify the expiration date of the offer,

The next several pages of the LOA will describe in greater detail the material and services being offered and responsibilities for transportation and delivery of the items. Separate FMS case lines will be included on your LOA. Each line will cover a specific category of material or service. Most of the information is in plain text or monetary terms, but in several situations we use codes to convey information. The codes are explained in greater detail in the Letter of Offer and Acceptance Information provided with each FMS case.

Question to nutuk;

If greece did not made the order(never the less you see the order/LOA above,lol) what missiles do our S-70B carry?
Ghost AGM-114?

According to Nutclown this picture showing S-70B & AGM-114M1 is a photoshop,lol.

Re Yannis the moron,

That are missiles from the first shipment, 248 AGM 114K (B, F and K) ordered in 1998 and delivered in 2001.

Later on Greece ordered 650 AGM 114K which is never delivered and cancelled.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

lol

Nutclown strikes again.

clown or not, this is the case. On the other hand why would the Greek army need them anyway, all they have to do is pose nice on postcards.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

Do you have a source that the deal was cancelled despite you can see LOA and AGM-114M1 above?
Please show me.

AGM-114M is pratically the same missile as AGM-114K with the difference of warhead M = blast fragmentation (to create big damage), K = shaped charge (for armor penetration)

These are missiles from my mentioned previous order of 248 hellfire missiles, however in 2006/2007 Greece ordered additional 650 hellfire missiles which should be delivered in 2009/2010, that one is cancelled. Do your own research on that lazy Grik.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

lol

Moron,we have a LOA and the fact that greek army as well as HN already took their missiles from this order.
Above is AGM-114M1 since HN S-70B don´t carry other hellfires than these ones.
Ofcourse you clown don´t have source.Nothing new.



btw;
http://www.hellenicdefense.gr/eidiseis/e2007/e071004a.html

Better care for your 3Ds since I still can´t see any of your S-70Bs you "ordered" four years ago,lol.
Should they not be in service before 2009 ends?

@Nutuk
"The only tactics the Greeks practiced was a war on mice."

Now that was really deep...

"Which developed tactics are you talking about, you import everything even the tactic simulators. In their anti armor duties the T-129 will be far above the Greek AH64D's since T129's will have much more varieted weaponry, from light laserguided CIRIT to heavy laser, IR and MMW guided UMTAS with a far better FCS system. Greece has to bring the Apache to the block-III standard to be a match."

Keep those simplified responses for the Turkish WAFFers who discovered millitary matters through SSM magazines and LM marketing brochures.
You and Cabatli spend time writing and writing, overanalyzing the small differences between different versions of Hellfire, debating on which model we have or dont have, how many missiles, bla-bla-bla.

You are missing the point!
My point was clear. Turkey followed its original goal and succeeded in producing a light attack helli (and weapons). Good for you. Bravo.

This can not change the fact that you are way-way behind in modern helli doctrine and you will need at least 5 years to come even close with our experience.
That is AFTER you get the first -129, which brings us close to 2020!

Also
You depend on weapons under development like CIRIT and UMTAS, FCS under development, and you think that like magic you will develop crews able to actually use all those fancy new FCS, those brand new flying machines, weapons, in an environment FAR-FAR-FAR more dangerous than the mountains operating now.
You think that battlefield approach in real life is like videogames? You dont get an extra life there.
So actualy you have an extra difficulty, cause you have to do training AND system development/testing in parallel at the beginning.

Also
You dont have a clue on how CIRIT and UMTAS will behave when and if they ever become operational. No brochure can tell you if the missiles are reliable under smoke, fog, heat, cold, if they are able to keep laser lock, how reliable is their warhead to detonate. You just cant know that from the brochures, you just produced the first prototypes. You have a looooong way ahead of you.
The Hellfire at least has a 25 year experience behind it. More than 10,000 HELLFIRE missiles have been successfully fired in combat!!
http://www.freshnews.com/news/231896/successful-first-flight-lockheed-martins-new-hellfire-ii-missile-design

Yes we buy our simulators and this doesnt mean we arent able to make the best use of them FOR 15 WHOLE YEARS. You didnt buy yours so you are 15years behind in training.
You bought only 12 (!) AH1Ws and now you have 6.
How many of those are operating? Possibly 5 or 4.
How many are in active combat duty on the mountains?Possibly all.
Where are they located? Close to PKK of course.
How the hell are you going to develop your training against the most demanding defenses (TOR M1, ASHRAD, OSA)?? Your bird is even vulnerable against 23mm ZU-23!
So AFTER you get them, AFTER you learn to fly them, AFTER you have enough flight and ground crews to have a functional unit, AFTER you have enough of those to support your opperatios, AFTER you develop the new tactics of your hellis against PKK (cause this is your priority of course), AFTER you' ll have enough hellis to cover all that, THEN you 'll START to develop some real anti-tank doctrine!

According to Hellenic Defense, during the last SARISSA the Apache crews displayed their ability to launch AGM-114 while on-the-move. NATO observers were rather impressed by that, since it is not standard procedure.
How long do you think is needed to develop tactics beyond standard procedure?
I ll tell you: LONG.
Also during this year we had an accident while an AH-64 was practicing a nap-on-earth attack on an Improved-HAWK air-defense site. NIGHT nap-on-earth attack that is.
Our crews regularly train on how to deploy weapons while in a high risk environment (facing Stingers, opponent air force, etc, etc).
You think all the above happened within overnight? We have them and trained with them since 1995. Damn 1995!
You gonna get your first T-129 in 2014-15. This is after 20 years from us, if you are lucky!

cheers

LOL Vlix,

When was the last time a Greek pilot saw active combat? Second WW?

And than about simulators we don't buy them because we build them!!!!

About preparing against AA batteries, just google EHTES!

We ain't behind we are lightyears ahead of you in training, our choppers ain't state of the art anymore true but they saw more combat than Greek pilots can dream of
Just a few years and we'll have the most advanced equipment of choppers in the neighbourhood, and our industry will keep continuing developments of stuff no any country will sell to Greece.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

JEEZ NUTUK!
Sure you have great actual operations experience in GUERILLA WARFARE.

GUERILLA!

You have 6 -Ws.
6!
All used-up intensively in actual anti-guerilla ops.
When on earth you developed tank-killer tactics???

I ve seen an AH-64 passing by me 15m high in actual night training.
Nothing to do with the vids you see in youtube, hellis flying high, shooting guns and unguided rockets to poor bastards armed with RPG and AK-74.

I thought you actualy went to the army, dont give me that kind of mumbo-jumbo kid responses.
We are of the same age.
Jeez

Vlix,

Almost all our Cobra's are in active duty in the southeast. The super cobra's you talk about are mainly active in Hakkari where there are real high mountains.

So you don't like guerilla warfare? Yet they pose the highest danger against helicopters. What danger did Greek helicopters ever encounter other than mice?

How many times did Greek helicopters conduct crossborder operations? Life huntings in environments being shot at?

How many times have Greek Apache's been repaired for bullet holes, just ask our chopper crews!

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

No Nutuk,
NO
Guerilla warfare is not the one with the highest risk for hellis.
Actually is the one of the lowest risk. This is why is called low-intencity-warfare

You had only, i say again ONLY 6 casualties in more than 10 years.
In extensive operations in a modern battlefield, against high threats like the ones you would have to operate in thrace or over the aegean, you would have 6 casualties in DAYS.

Crossborder operations is not such a big deal if you are dealing kurdish Iraq!
We send some OYK team in crossborder operation in Albania in 1997
So what?!?

Yes your pilots are more experienced in battle fatigue, more experienced in living in deployed possitions, in dealing with field operating problems like the 'holes' you mention.

This has nothing to do with your training to perform a very different and very demanding task, for which you dont have no means (hellis), neither time.
It is like saying that your trully experienced SAT teams, are great in firing anti-tank weapons.
Totally different jobs.

BTW, since you have only so few operating -Ws, how many experienced crews do you think you have?

How many times did Greek helicopters conduct crossborder operations? Life huntings in environments being shot at?

How many times have Greek Apache's been repaired for bullet holes, just ask our chopper crews!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

You sound like being proud of the continuing Turkish-Kurdish war in the SE, a war that has cost you thousands of Sehits and many downed choppers. Problem is you are losing this war as illustrated with this PKK amnesty program you mentioned earlier.

Greece OTOH, does not allocate valuable resources to a different front other than the main GR/TR confrontation line nor do we lose valuable personnel and weaponry due to enemy action.

I'm not denying that we have a low intensity warfare, we can even call it civil war. War takes cassualties but also forces one to improve!!!

If we had not have the horrible WW1 and WW2 the world wouldn't be at the technological level she is now. For Turkey it translated in a defence industry, not long ago (just 20 years ago) our defence industry was as pathetic as the Greek defence industry.

Claiming that Greek pilots are at levels of Turkish pilots is only good for laughter.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

VII

from the begining i wanted to point out that Turkish forumers, as usual, spend a hell of a lot of keybord time analyzing systems and numbers, and systematicaly forget to count things like, training, applied tactics, doctrine development etc, etc.

Actually the eastern front has definitely given them valuable experience, especialy in SOF and infantry tactics, as i mentioned.

This is not the case with attack hellis though.
As it isn't with with PGM bombing e.g. or tank warfare and other aspects of modern warfare.

I'm not denying that we have a low intensity warfare, we can even call it civil war. War takes cassualties but also forces one to improve!!!

If we had not have the horrible WW1 and WW2 the world wouldn't be at the technological level she is now. For Turkey it translated in a defence industry, not long ago (just 20 years ago) our defence industry was as pathetic as the Greek defence industry.

Claiming that Greek pilots are at levels of Turkish pilots is only good for laughter.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Let me get this straight! You are saying you are happy with having this 15 million-strong Kurdish minority with its PKK military force fighting for Kurdish minority rights!

You are also saying those 5,000 lightly armed PKK mountain guerilas offer you realistic military training comparable to the Greek military threat from the west. Tell us then, do you train against a navy? Maybe against a NATO Army fighting a conventional warfare or do you engage the Kurds in F-16 dogfights over Siirt?

What does PKK have in common with the Greek military???

@Nutuk
You are making statements.
You are not giving arguments.

On the contrary Vlix, we got so much experience that all those experiences are translated in tech for T-129 and helicopter simulators to give the best training possible. Without suffering there is no success.

We used like the Greeks to buy from abroad but that is vastly changing and there is no way Greeks can keep pace, the distance will only keep widening from now on.

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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Power is the ultimate afrodisiak (Henry kissinger)

"Actually the eastern front has definitely given them valuable experience, especialy in SOF and infantry tactics, as i mentioned.

This is not the case with attack hellis though. As it isn't with with PGM bombing e.g. or tank warfare and other aspects of modern warfare."

@Vlix...unlike most Greeks you seem to be a little more logical and level headed, so for that congratulations. However I think you're falling into the same trap that most Greeks here are in assuming the Turkish military trains less than yours. This is ofcourse all based on conjecture since in reality none of you have a clue as to the training curriculum and live fire exersizes we perform.

The Turkish military operates 20+ AH-1P's and 6 AH-1W's! You're making a mistake by assuming we use our cobras only to chase ragheads in the mountains, at most at any given time only a quarter of that fleet is in Hakkari (SE Turkey)! Rest of the time they're in Etimesgut Ankara training their balls off!

Besides scheduled training I know for a fact that Cobras were involved in at least two live fire exercises in 2009 at Tuz Golu & Efes. At Tuz Golu they were used against armoured formations and at Efes they were used for beachhead CAS.

AS far combat experience and threat avoidance goes when they're in the mountains the only thing firing at them are not ZU-23's but also Igla's, we didnt install IR countermeasures on our AH-1P's to look pretty! As far piloting skills and time in seat goes and based on the operational availability, or lack thereof, of your AH-64's go, I am going to go on a limb and say we have you beat.




I Hail The Flag

Our apache pilots have an average of at least 1000 flight hours or 150h each year.
I doubt that the 40 years old turkish cobras have this kind of availability,lol.

"What does PKK have in common with the Greek military???"

@VII_PZ_DIV........The PKK may not have anything common with the Greek military but in some cases that makes no difference.

When was the last time the Greek military mobilized brigade sized units for cross border operations into hostile territory, when was the last time a Greek soldier had any real combat experience and got shot at with anything other than a paintball or a laser beam, when was the last time the Greek military performed high altitude combat operations in winter conditions, when was the last time Greek special forces infiltrated deep into hostile territory to paint targets for air strikes, when was the last time the HAF was involved in a sustained night time aerial bombing campaigns using PGM's....think about it.




I Hail The Flag

Hey Yannis, Chance your course towards African countries If you want to find a rival in defence sector...Honestly... Do not fall in depression please.. Look at the picture from positive side... You are going to eat lots of bananas there...

@Caba

All I know is that you don´t have tanks and attack choppers anymore.
Your "wait for 2020" in middle of worst economy breakdown is like to admit you´re lost.
We already have what you dream about.

Ah really... Africans also have many banana stores but Who cares?

lolyes!
African nations also have high infant mortality,no education and barefoot children in the streets.
Just like turkey.
Do you care?

African nations are your rivals Yannis, Not us... so You should care and follow What they have achieved... Especially storing the Bananas, types and shapes of them ....