As you are aware the fiscal demands on the greek budget at the moment are very high indeed

Greece is going through the biggest crisis ever due to the greed of the international financial market place and global speculators (Goldman, Lehman etc)

So what is the answer from a military / tactical point of view in terms of procurements?

Well noumero uno is to complete existing procurments successfully:

- Abrams
- Surplus M113 etc
- U-214
- NH-90
- Surplus Blackhawk helos

a big answer is given simply by the above programs

next is looking to the future:

- F-16 Upgrade
- limited Mirage update

and then we look to Russia for 'bargains' in exchanged for loans and oil

- Club - K (hidden ace that can be planted on every aegean island)
- S300 upgrade
- Iskander ballistic missile

so basically a rought and ready but highly potent upgrade of the armed forces with advanced rocketry / cruise missile / tactical ballistic missile technology will really pump up our armed forces

it is a big question mark whether Turkey will receive the F-35 (or even will exist in its current form in the next 5 years) so we can defer this decision (counter-JSF) until a later stage.. but there will be .. answers available then.. for example the Russian Stealth (PAK-FA) which in 20-40 units would prove to be a lethal adversary.....



=============================================

Romulus stop trolling man.

Your idiotic threads are becoming annoying buddy, there is no creativity anymore, all your threads are the same. I suggest you take a day off and crawl back in your cave and think how to troll better the next day

---

I'm not like everybody else

please do not feel obliged to answer my threads if you find them boring

now here is some video I found on Club K



enjoy!

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Haha, what can we say to that?

Greek woman have to work hard to bring up that money.

-----------------------------

Next week in cinema: Hungry Dancing

I like the idea of the klub as an effective anti-ship system deployed through out our islands.. 

Especially, during these times of cutbacks and reorganisation in our armed forces.. This missile would negate the need to purchase expensive frigates, corvettes and fast attack craft.. The klub would act as a low cost solution for our needs and at the same time solidify Greek.. Russian unity against a common threat..

exactly Varangian

Club K is not only low cost and highly lethal but it is discrete / incognito

it is really designed for smaller countries to face off larger countries with much more powerful militaries

however for Greece in this hour of crisis it will be a massive force multiplier, works perfectly in the littoral aegean environmentt to neutralize the threat from Milgem and related Turkish vessels aswell as Turkish landing parties and even when the Turkish LPD arrives

honestly the 2 billion or so earmarked for FREEM would be better spent in the current climate on:

- upgrades and maintenence to existing assets
- purchasing of 'smart' systems like CLub - K, Iskender, S-400 etc



=============================================

Romulus are u working for defencenet..? Only these morons in such times that we hardly can
pay pensions and salaries dream of new weaponry purchases.

Most people demand decent funds to maintain the weaponry we currently have and when economy
srart recovering we`ll see about new toys...

thing is though Beryoza the russians have basically said they will support us as long as we honour the deals we signed before (pipelines and BMP-3)

on the other hand they have said that if we want to change the BMP-3 deal to another one of equal value in monetary terms then we can do that also

I think in terms of mechanized infantry we are doing OK when the new M113s arrive so to be honest the BMP-3 is money down the toilet really

however the pipelines (southstream etc) are not! so we should solidify our pact with Moscow

don't forget that now with Syria Moscow has reached an understanding with Tel Aviv, so we are definitely in 'interesting' times for alliances etc



=============================================

''it is really designed for smaller countries to face off larger countries with much more powerful militaries'

''works perfectly in the littoral aegean environmentt to neutralize the threat from Milgem and related Turkish vessels''

Romulus these are good systems I agree, but your thoughts about attacking turkey the last thing Greece have to spend money on right now is their military, okay if you were on the edge of a war then I understand, you want to defend yourself.. But you are here talking about attacking Turkey? You are in a hurry aswell, ''will the U214s be operational by 4 weeks''

And im glad you realize that Turkey is a ''larger country and have much more powerful military'' cuz thats what you point out


Beryoza +1

SIGNATURE

Dont learn from your mistakes, learn from others and you will save time

"thing is though Beryoza the russians have basically said they will support us as long as we honour the deals we signed before (pipelines and BMP-3)

on the other hand they have said that if we want to change the BMP-3 deal to another one of equal value in monetary terms then we can do that also

I think in terms of mechanized infantry we are doing OK when the new M113s arrive so to be honest the BMP-3 is money down the toilet really

however the pipelines (southstream etc) are not! so we should solidify our pact with Moscow

don't forget that now with Syria Moscow has reached an understanding with Tel Aviv, so we are definitely in 'interesting' times for alliances etc"


BMP-3 deal is more dead than a 90 years old man`s dick so what are you talking about?

Greece needs to maintain its weaponry and keep doing as many exercises/drills as we can
afford. Possibly in 3-4 years we`ll be better economically and maybe we`ll be able to afford
new weaponry.

Romulus:
You forgot a few more important things:
-More 120 mm shells for the tanks
-New heavy torpedoes for the U214 subs
-Replenish stocks of spare parts and other supplies.

Regarding your proposals:
-Abrams
- Surplus M113 etc
- U-214
- NH-90
- Surplus Blackhawk helos
Correct moves. These are either free or already ordered and paid for. No extra cost.



- Club - K
- S300 upgrade
- Iskander ballistic missile

S-300 upgrade is good idea and very cheap. Must be done soon.
The rest requires some money. Good idea after 4 years.

- F-16 Upgrade
- limited Mirage update
Cost is estimated at 1,5 billion euros. No money right now, maybe in 4 years, but first we must get the Germans off our back.

Do not forget:
DEI DH XRHMATON O ANDRES ATINAIOI, KAI ANEY TOYTON OYDEN ESTAI GENESTHAI TON DEONTON
Demosthenes, 1st Olynthian Oration



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

"Greece needs to maintain its weaponry and keep doing as many exercises/drills as we can
afford. Possibly in 3-4 years we`ll be better economically and maybe we`ll be able to afford
new weaponry."

Greece has little choice BUT to maintain and fund a strong military.. especially, with a neighbour like Turkey.. without a mutual arms reduction accord with Turkey.. or a solving of the Aegean problems, we have no choice.. even if it means cutting from other budgets..

Of course, the other alternative is to radically slash the size of the army.. and use the savings to fund a modernisation program..

Mutual weapons reduction my ***!Turkey is clearly becoming a big regional power and Greece
cannot follow Turkey when we can hardly pay pensions!

We`re kinda lucky Turks are busy with Syrians and Kurds! We must invest as much as we
can afford to training our forces, its our strong card against Turkey.

I`m kinda drunk right now so i can`t fully respond, i`ll do it tomorrow

well basically I dont think anyone disagrees with you beryoza

these are tough times, but we must still keep the fighting capacity of our armed forces in the highest level

thing is if we wait 3-4 years I don't know whether that will be too long

this is why I am making some 'cheap' proposals (eg Club K, S-300 upgrade etc) and not talking about other things for now like PAK-FA etc



=============================================

^^^

X2 Rom..

...time we faced reality Bery.. without drastic restructuring of the armed forces (Army and Navy) and concentrating our limited funds on a powerful airforce and force multipliers (eg) Klub.. like Rom proposes.. we'll just crumble the moment we face a hot situation.. NOW.. I'm no pacifist, but reality dictates that we make a deal or at the very least, keep the status quo concerning our positions and wait for a more fortuitous time to assert our rights.. but one territorial dispute that we shouldn't delay is a peace solution on Cyprus.. that's one front, we certainly don't need to worry about now !

 

correct Vara

same situation before WW2, England pursued a policy of appeasement vis a vis Nazy Germany and what happened?

Germany up-armed while Britain 'de-armed' always thinking that this kind of military expenditure is a waste of money under tough times with 'better' priorities

thing is what can possbily be a higher priority than the safety of your population from external threat and blackmail and the guaranteeing of your territorail integrity

for instance if Greece had made the right investments post Imia right now we would not be scared to declare AOZ, which would mean in 3-4 years we could be paying back all the loans and be one of the riches petrochemical hubs in the mediterranean

would we have had all these problems now if for example:

- in the 1980s we had made a F-16 production line?
- if we had consolidated our fleet into F-16 only + a 4th generation fighter (Rafale or Typhoon)?
- if we had mopped up the remaining 250 Leo 2A4 that in the end Turkey bought at bargain price?
- if instead of U-214 we had purchased a more conventional / cheaper platform (blame Akis for this)?
- if instead of the stupid super vita thing we had developed our own corvette platform and leverage our ship-building infrastructure?

etc etc


the list goes on and on



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Apart from the usual jabber of Romulus are you guys aware of the similarity of the Atmaca anti ship missile with the club-K?

Fact is Romy, you are dreaming of the club-K, we are building it!

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

Our army needs to keep it's standard despite the crisis...In fact any person with a brain would tell you how important the army is right now because we are in a crisis...which means we are vulnerable.

We need to keep up with the times, upgrade our army or else we will be weak not only politically but also militarilly.
Don't forget in similar periods, focus is placed on the army to secure sovereignty.

And this is a great chance for us...Israel is our ally, PKK is getting bolder not to mention the Syria Crisis. We need to put pressure on Turkey now that they are stretched out and secure the Aegean once and for all.

We can't let such chances go away...

well said ^^

Turkey in general terms is stronger (7x the population) however she is stretched out beyond her means in multiple fronts:

- Kurds
- Syria
- Israel
- Aegean / Greece
- E. Mediterranean / Cyprus-Greece-Israel

these opportunities do not come every day

in addition she has fallen out of favour with

- USA
- Russia (following the activation of the Moscow-Tel Aviv understanding)


=============================================

Greece is a country who has to buy military equipments from outside regarding their industrial level. To keep her independence, i think Greece should buy less numbers but more variety of same equipment from different countries.


LandForces
-Leo2A6 Hel-Rupt
-M1A1 Free Hallow
-Leclerc
-Arjun (to be completed in 2042)

Airforce
-F-16 CCIP, F-16 M, F-16 Block 60 ------ USA
-Jas 39 ------Sweden
-Rafale ------France (Old mirages can be exchanged)
-SR 71 BB ----USA
-TU 26 ----Russia
-PakFa ----Russia


Navy
-Fremms 6 pcs (counter TF-2000)
-Meko 200 12 pcs (counter Milgem)
-S-80 (Old 214s can be exchanged)



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Mandatory remark for some members and mods...









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@Shadow7warloard

You are vulnerable against who? remember that you are in NATO and if you get attacked then you will get your support, but man, you are planning to hit Turkey. Agreed you have to keep your equipment updated with the date. But first solve your existing problems spend less on military and when you have a rising economy then you boost it. As you said Turkey is focused on all these problems so why would Turkey go in war with you aswell? The only threat that you point out here is Turkey.

@Rumolus stop arguing about attacking Turkey if we are much more stronger in general terms + remember that only all of the stationed tanks within the syrian border are old. Missiles, aerial support and naval support wont take long time to reach greece it is matter of hours.

When it comes to the defence industry you can see the difference between Turkey and Greece. You say ''made in korea'' copy of this and that.. but in the end, we get support from our friendly countries and we will end up with building our own military equipments wich includes less import. Most of the countries wont sell you weapons when you are already in war, like we faced in 1974. We are getting slowly but surely independent, while you face economic crise and spend the money you get from Eu for military equipment, last but not least ATTACKING TURKEY. I feel sorry for you guys and your logic.

BabyBeach +1

SIGNATURE

Dont learn from your mistakes, learn from others and you will save time

"You are vulnerable against who? remember that you are in NATO and if you get attacked then you will get your support, but man, you are planning to hit Turkey."

Yes in the times we don`t have to worry about next month`s pensions we make our plans to
invade Turkey with out massive army of unemployed people...

@Beryoza, exactly then then they have an excuse '' they didnt starve to death they died for their country, true warriors and blablabla''

SIGNATURE

Dont learn from your mistakes, learn from others and you will save time

"You are vulnerable against who? remember that you are in NATO and if you get attacked then you will get your support, but man, you are planning to hit Turkey. Agreed you have to keep your equipment updated with the date. But first solve your existing problems spend less on military and when you have a rising economy then you boost it. As you said Turkey is focused on all these problems so why would Turkey go in war with you aswell? The only threat that you point out here is Turkey. "

We are( or actually will become) vulnerable to you. Not that you're going to attack us, but if for example we were to declare EEZ according t onationa llaw we would need strong military to back it and secure our rights.

A strong military doesn't act just for war it acts as intimidation for other countries...

"@Beryoza, exactly then then they have an excuse '' they didnt starve to death they died for their country, true warriors and blablabla''"

Not really, in Greece its not easy to manipulate people and megali idea campaigns are
dead for good.

"We are( or actually will become) vulnerable to you. Not that you're going to attack us, but if for example we were to declare EEZ according t onationa llaw we would need strong military to back it and secure our rights."

Yes and no, Cyprus is a small island and yet she declared its EEZ with no problems.

The new few months and possibly years Turkey will be very busy with Syria and Kurds..

"Yes and no, Cyprus is a small island and yet she declared its EEZ with no problems."

Because it made an alliance with Israel obviously...

"Because it made an alliance with Israel obviously..."

Whatever, if tiny seperated Cyprus can, Greece can do it easier...