2 Apache Helicopters Engage over 20 Taliban fighters








April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

The mean reason are the 30 mmm gun and a good FLIR System...



You think the Italian 20 mm toy can do the job the same way?






April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

moron are you killing terrorists or destroying tanks? who need 30mm cannon?
im sure that aselflir 300t better than blockI apache's flir.

_______________________________________________________________________________


_______________________________________________________________________________

Cirit, umtas ,20 mm canon will be a nightmare of the terorists:)and will do great job...

why would these terrorists setup camp out in the open these guys must be civilians for all i know

"moron are you killing terrorists or destroying tanks? who need 30mm cannon?
im sure that aselflir 300t better than blockI apache's flir."

Donkey, the video above showing how to kill Taliban terrorist and not Tanks with the 30 mm cannon. The reason is the "30mm M789 High Explosive Dual Purpose" ammunition, that kind of ammunition explode like a small handgranate and don't need a direct hit to neutralize a soldier.



The M230 is capable of firing the ADEN/DEFA 30x113 rounds, however, the Lightweight 30 mm rounds (M788/M789/M799) used in the M230 are constructed with a light alloy as opposed to brass or steel casings to save weight and are in use with the US Army. The M230 rounds are not backwards compatible with weapons designed for the ADEN or DEFA rounds. The M788 rounds can be distinguished by the blue band near the nose, the M789 by a yellow stripe atop a black band and the M799 a red stripe atop a yellow band.[6][7] The M799 HEI round is not used by the US Army due to the danger of a round exploding in the gun barrel. General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been awarded a contract for the production and delivery of 30mm M789 High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) ammunition cartridges by the U.S. Army Contracting Command. The 30mm M789 HEDP is the primary tactical round of the Apache AH-64 helicopter, widely used in current combat operations. The Apaches ability to provide accurate air support with minimal collateral damage led to increased use and volume demands for M789 ammunition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_chain_gun

P.S. Greek Apaches are Block II and Block III production just started, so?






April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

actually, does the turkish chopper get 20 or 25mm?
every mm of HE power is efficient, and reduces the need for accuracy/ammo capacity/fire rate

also 30mm can knock out much more vehicles than 20mm...

i find 25mm would be a good split between the two

edit:

anybody else find it funny those guys waste 100,000 of tax dollars by using hellfire missiles on a few individual targets they could easily take out with 30mm ammo? or if theyre outta ammo, ffar rockets(unguided hydra)

i mean this should be an embaressment for the hellfire rocket lol. one of the top dedicated anti tank weapons of the world used as simple guided rocket

So far the Italian A129 using 20 mm M197 three-barrel gatling-type cannon with 500 rounds. Its possible to handling a bigger gun like a 25 mm?






April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

"So far the Italian A129 using 20 mm M197 three-barrel gatling-type cannon with 500 rounds. Its possible to handling a bigger gun like a 25 mm? "

So first you called it an Italian Gun (the american M197 gatling)... after that you realized it's no italian gun and it's an american gun...


Here from your primarily source, wikipedia (but mostly you don't use any source):

"The M197 remains in use in the latest AH-1W Cobra and AH-1Z Viper gunships. "

If T-129 would carry 30mm ammo, the capacity would be less than 500... We made the right choice, 20mm HE ammo + Cirit missiles for bigger groups + Umtas missile for very big targets

-------------------------------

so our chopper is, besides the modernized super cobra, the only modern attack helo to utilize a gatling gun. all the others have single barrel cannons, mostly in revolver configuration

AselFlir 300T and 20 MM combined will be the best choise ever for the asimetric warfare. Instead of finding idiotic solutions for Turkish army, you should have find money to upgrde your obsolute AH-64 A's

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody is denying that the Apache is a good chopper, however you have to be a Greek not to understand that as long as you do not have the full capabilities to use the chopper it is just a below the average equipment.

See Griks and their choppers who have longbow radar but no MMW missiles, no ability to upgrade them, no ability to produce the missiles they use.


For Turkey the T-129 is much much more valuable, since we will produce all the arms that the chopper will use.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

@trabzonlee61

1) I say about the helicopter is Italian not the gun....read again my words.
"So far the Italian A129 using 20 mm M197 three-barrel gatling-type cannon with 500 rounds. Its possible to handling a bigger gun like a 25 mm? "

2) The M197 gun is used on the Italian A 129 Mangusta but also on the older Bell AH-1 combat helicopter.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Air-Launched-Weapons/M197-20-mm-Cannon-TM197B-and-Universal-Turret-System-United-States.html







April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

@Nutuk

We have discus the subject many times, we don't need necessary newer missiles like we received few years ago with the Hellfires AGM-114K1.






April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

The hellfire's Greece has are good, I don't discuss that but they are not MMW missiles that can operate with the longbow radar.

I just point at the fact that you use your heli's half arsed!

We on the other hand want to use our choppers full time, so we need an unlimited amount of missiles, ammo, the ability to upgrade and alter it the way we want etc. etc., can that be achieved with the Apache? If the answer is no, than that chopper is no good for us.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

T-129 has trouble getting even 20mm recoil under control. 25 or 30mm is but a dream..

4:20

---

Griks In Despair

Unlike Greece we are using the choppers in real combat, not in exercises.As nutuk mention this is best chopper for our needs. Plus operating and maintanance cost of Apache Much more than T-129. In the video pilots use hellfire missile for a single terrorist. It's an overkill. And now we have cirit for that cost effective and more dedicated for this job.

T-129 is a new helicopter still under development (flight tests, firing tests, systems integration, qualifications, etc) and it has not had any batte experience yet. Whatever comparisons you attempt to make versus the Apache, is therefore null, void and pointless. When the T129 participates in operations in the southeast for at least a year and starts creating its own "record", perhaps then we can look at how they each handle the difficult counter-guerrilla tasks given to them.

Until then we can only compare them on paper.

 

 

Combat_master, dont forget that gun fires fast, increasing recoil dramatically

At IDEF there ATK was displaying a mini 30mm gun with low recoil, a beauty. One that could be used instead of 20mm.

But heck let's first have the 20mm if it proves to be insufficient we can always opt for upgrading to 30mm.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

A-129 never made sense to me when it was chosen, it is a crappy platform developed from the after thoughts of the Italian engineers.


Rip out the 20mm cannon and replace it with M129..

---

Griks In Despair

"A-129 never made sense to me when it was chosen, it is a crappy platform developed from the after thoughts of the Italian engineers. "

But its on your signiture??

Anyway, those who underestimate T-129 for some reason, should describe what tens of T-129s cant do (with its brand new flir, avionics and unlimited missiles) what 8 SuperCobras done for years?

Also how a T-129 with its comanche engine, equiped with MMW radar, Aselflir 300T, Cirit, UMTAS, inferior than any other attack helicopter? Maybe less duration of flight? Oh big deal...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way before when we were arguing the capacities of these Helicopters i have explained to Greeks and many Turks that A129 wasnt built as a competitor to Apache but Rather SuperCobra . Since T129 is a platform of A129 ...you cannot upgrade a vehicle from a Car to a Truck.


Our needs are to have necessary weapons systems to operate at a low cost but still be effective against groups of PKK terrorists .

T129 is the right choice for the job . Most importantly we can upgrade it to our own avionics , electronics and gun systems will make it more precious than any other platform in Turkish armed forces today ...

If you look at the video ...these soldiers use Guided missile's against 20 Taliban that is walking around like its fuking sunday and they are going for a picnic . First of all Turkish army 9nor whole greek economy) can afford this much money on bunch of monkeys walking around . Thousands of dollars to spend on 2 Keko's... no thank you .

On the other hand

@Combat-Master

That is how a Gatling gun operate's . i do not see any absurd recoil there . Even in cars a gatling gun would create unstable conditions because of its rate of fire . 30 MM used on Apache's are not even close to that rate of fire . Also watch the video and see how hard it is for the pilot to take a shot on target because this gun has such a low rate of fire and needs bigger targets like tanks .

But a Gatling gun would tear this **** out of that place with that rate of fire so at the end you wouldnt have to use your expensive Cirit missile's on Keko's .



I am very happy with T129 it delivers what it promises and i can see it compete against Cobra ...

Stop comparing it to Apache ... Just because it is a helicopter and it has guns doesnt mean it is at the same category ....



When PKK operate's tanks and other helicopters ...we may think about getting toys like Apache ... to be honest it would have been nice to have an Apache against Russian Mi-24 Hind's in Syria

-----------------------------------------------

"T-129 is a new helicopter still under development (flight tests, firing tests, systems integration, qualifications, etc) and it has not had any batte experience yet. Whatever comparisons you attempt to make versus the Apache, is therefore null, void and pointless. When the T129 participates in operations in the southeast for at least a year and starts creating its own "record", perhaps then we can look at how they each handle the difficult counter-guerrilla tasks given to them.

Until then we can only compare them on paper."


I have only compare the 20-30 mm cannons from both choppers nothing more and nothing less. Conclusion, the Apache 30 mm cannon is more effective....







April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

"Italian Agusta and Turkish TAI made a marriage that will get along until the end of the partners. The name of the marriage is T-129 Atak. The marriage is appropriate with Turkish Muslim and Italian Catholic beliefs. Once It started, Proceeding until the end is a must for partners. T-129 Atak contains such a partnership between two country."

The sentences are taken from an official, who summarized the situation of Atak program, Italian and Turkish contactors are playing a global games to develop/manufacture/export one of the best attack helicopter in its class.


At this aspect, Contrary to Gayreece inventory equipments mices are eating, Atak is our own platform. We can develop, modify, re-develop, re-modify, re-produce in accordance with own requirements. If we wish, We can mount 25mm cannon or 30mm on top or down or wing...etc It is none of your bussiness to exemine the Atak and its quality based on your platform carrying 30mm cannon.

Turkish Army uses 20mm three barrel gun effectively on terror areas since the times you don't have any idea What an attack copter looks like so Stop lowering yourself with stupid statements...

Discover

Turk Insani Para Gibidir. Icine Isik Tut Ataturk Yoksa Sahtedir...

^^^^

Until now you watching two generations of Apaches in the Greek army flying over your heads, 20 years and still counting, LoL.

AH-64 A+



AH-64 DHA



Enjoy




April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

@theBLUEwolf

It's not about the rate of fire or recoil I am getting at, it's the stupid position the weapon is placed. If you notice the Cobra firing in a relative to angle of the gun on T-129 you'd notice the Cobra is rock solid, even with it's two blade rotor system.

So when you've got this


And you add weapon system to it that was not designed for it,
you get this with the ammunition exposed on the side of the aircraft and you get instability when firing it.

---

Griks In Despair

some 200 extra munition won't cause big instability during flight !

Even if it would cause instability, you could compensate it a bit with more weapon load on the other side of the helicopter...

But we are talking about 50kg of ammunition (200) and lets say maximum(!) 50kg for the canisters around it... 100kg won't cause much instability for a helicopter of that weight and that powerful engine !

-------------------------------

Apache: anti-tank helicopter
Cobra and T-129: Ground support helicopters

End of discussion

With other words...

Cobra helicopter is an incredibly effective byproduct of a stop-gap development of an existing helicopter, while the Apache is what the US Army has got in place of the desired A-10, or equivalent aircraft. AH-64D features 400% more lethality over current AH-64As, 720% more survivable, can hit moving and stationary targets in presence of obscurants when optical systems are rendered ineffective, can use multiple sensors, the Longbow radar detects and classifies up to 128 targets prioritizing the 16 most dangerous of them, and only needs 3.4 hours-man of maintenance per flight hour. It is compatible with the digitized battlefield of the 21st century. Following the RAH-66 Comanche cancellation, the US Army selected the Apache as the attack helicopter for the objective force associated to the Future Combat Systems program. This decision will keep the Apache Longbow in active service for the next three decades.
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Helicopters/AH-64D-Apache-Longbow_a000519003.aspx

Some Turks claim here T129 will be a better helicopter, LoL. Its like Turks say we produce a new fighter plane and start to compare with the F-22....







April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

@Combat Master

If you are thinking that the gun position is at the tip which might create a heavy pivot to the centre of gravity ... then we should look at the old design and compare ... now old design had the same location for the gunning position .

As far as i am informed . A129 used a 3 barrel 20 mm Gatling gun with 500 rounds.

It also used 2 Rolls Royce 2-1004D engines


....

T129 also uses a 3 barrel Gatling platform with 500 rounds capacity .

It uses LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines which are more powerful than old Rolls Royce engine's

how could this helicopter not be able to handle 20 mm Gatling almost similar to its old version apart from Bullet feeding system sticking out ...


Which is another questionable argument...

Now there are several forms of drag that may cause unstable flight for an aircraft ... there is the parasite drag and induced drag . Bullets sticking out would create problem at a parasite drag stance ...however parasite drag takes effect at high speeds and only create problem then ...which a helicopter isnt even designed to travel at .

Truly i do not see any problem at this time ... if there is stability issues then this would come out at firing range tests ...and there are ways to counter such issues .


On the other hand AH-1W Super Cobra has a stronger General Electric T700-401 engines which is also used at AH-64 Apache and UH-60 Blackhawks ... now this added with the relatively different placement of the gunning position (which is slightly behind the nose ) creates a better stability during gunning .

Although stronger engines means better performance and heavier payload ...it also means expensive operation costs ... The engine T129 uses delivers a good combination of performance to cost ratio with a steady payload . I believe this is a good deal for Turkiye's first attack helicopter project ...and i also believe this will be a stepping stone for greater projects in vehicle weapons system (which would be used in several UAV's ) future helicopter projects and even for jets (avionics wise)

-----------------------------------------------

@ George,

I do like AH-64, its a battle proven attack helicopter, decent armor,good electronics suit,fire power...etc.

I have watched numerous AH-64 gun cam footage over internet,did you notice the recoil when WSO strafes 30mm gun? Almost in all AH-64 gun cam videos you can see its not that very accurate when using against insurgents,that's because 30mm not intended to be used against infantry/soft targets only.


You can equip T-129 with same configuration of armaments, except 30mm cannon as you mentioned.I prefer 20mm against counter terrorism and soft targets. You don't necessarily to have 30mm rounds to kill human beings,20mm is more than enough for that job,30mm on the other hand is an overkill.

T-129 with better electronics suit and engine.....after all its ours and we are producing it.



-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some Turks claim here T129 will be a better helicopter, LoL. Its like Turks say we produce a new fighter plane and start to compare with the F-22....
----------------------------------

Better thant the Grik Apache's yes!

Griks have nice postcard tanks, helicopters, submarines......... without teeth! Mice eaten and No ammo, and if always insufficient with superduper exercizes like tanks wading through 30cm of water.


Yes, T-129 is not state of the art, true and we don't need state of the art. We need choppers that can do the job.

Like the Grik NH-90 (looks great on the pictures) but no thanks! We rather have the none state of the art choppers that are there on the frontlines when needed.


--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

"If you are thinking that the gun position is at the tip which might create a heavy pivot to the centre of gravity ... then we should look at the old design and compare ... now old design had the same location for the gunning position."

I posted a Video of the T-129 rocking back and forth when firing short burst of its cannons, I suggest you watch the video.

---

Griks In Despair

@Combat

I have seen the video you ve posted and even watched again now .I do not see a major issue at stability mate . If that gun is shooting where it is suppose to shoot and hits the target with certain amount of accuracy then i am happy . That is why the firing range tests are there for .

Now i am not sure about the specifications of the 20 mm Gatling used on this heli . since the old design had the same specifications of a gun used before ... this might even mean that this gatling gun has heavier recoil maybe its all because of that . Instead of creating trouble with the heli design and blaming the heli for it ...simply work on projects to lower the recoil or even get a new one .simple and easy .

-----------------------------------------------