...as time goes by.. it's becoming more and more evident, that Turkey, as a unified nation, is becoming unsustainable.. Kurds, Circassians, Arabs, Alevi's and so on..

So I ask you guys.. who should Greece support in such a inevitable senario.. the Turks (Kemalist's or Islamists) Kurds, Alevi's.. Or a combination.. Which outcome would better suit GREECE's needs?

Please NO flaming..

Greeks should first help themselves hahaahahahah

-----------------------------

...I mean what's in it for Greece? Shouldn't our support (either way) bring us some compensation?

If I were a Greek, I would support Turkish side.

Greek civil war is more likely, you can't even form a stable government. Turkey is doing financially, militarily and economically much better, in fact Turkey is everything Greece wants to be.

Greek mayhem will soon start when you leave EU. We will be there to foster separatism in south-Macedonia and west-Thrace.

-----------------------------

Vara , Correction : Alevi's are a sect , not race . There are Turks , Kurd's and other Alevi's .

-----------------------------------------------

True Ilgar.. but still nations have split just as easily along sectarian lines as they have on ethnic ones..

Why should we support he Turkish people's Toros? what's in it for us..

The problem i see is that the you Turks are universally hated and as such have NO friends.. we Greeks can be your friends.. for a price that is.. remember, Turkey not so long ago was prepared o sell out Istanbul to the  British and French for nothing.. why not make a deal with us?

Would you say European Turkey, including Constantinople as a fair price?

...don't be silly Hidden.. Here's NO separatist movements in Greece to challenge the status quo.. the same cant be said about Turkey..

Actually Turks have enough friends in Europe and middle-east. All the Turkic states, Azerbijan, Pakistan, Arabia, etc.

Greece actually doesn't have any friends, that is why you keep sucking the tip of Europe although they got enough of you.

Just imagine Greece out of EU, surrounded by hostile states. Turkey, Albania, Macedona, who are the friends of Greeks? haaha, Greek elite knows it will become second armenia.

-----------------------------

Well , I know lots of Alevi's IN FACT I have some family . Don't know Kurds , Arabs , Istanbulites or even Russians at Antalya want to split from Turkey but I'm sure Alevi's are not.

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The Kurds of course since they are fighting for their freedom like we were in 1821 and for many other reasons...

That's not true at all Hidden.. in fact I'd go as so far as to  say that Greeks and Turks are more alike than your "friends and allies" a paradox I agree.. but a fact non the less.. I mean why not just let the riff raff go and form a friendship with us.. we can be neighbours and look out for each other.. but first we need to correct some historical mistakes.. fair price wouldnt you say?

Now Greece is bankrupt you want friendship with us?

Now I understand the saying:

Never trust a Greek bringing presents.

-----------------------------

Shadow..

I think we should abjective about this type of senario.. I know we have a bloody history with the Turks.. but our interests sould come first and NOT sentiment.. a passified and humbled Turkey would make a better neighbour.. but then again a grateful Kurdish nation could also deliver benefits..

Where to we find the dividing lines that separate all these different groups in Turkey? surely they exist, so many different elements must meet somewhere Ilgar.. you can't just say everyone is happy in Turkey.. because its Turkey.. these people have aspirations otherwise they wouldn't associate with such an identity..

"Shadow..

I think we should abjective about this type of senario.. I know we have a bloody history with the Turks.. but our interests sould come first and NOT sentiment.. a passified and humbled Turkey would make a better neighbour.. but then again a grateful Kurdish nation could also deliver benefits.. "


The Turks have the upper hand,they have a standard army,resources etc. Supporting them would simply end with the defeat of the Kurds and the strengthening of Turkey,they wouldn't feel grateful to us.

But if we supported the Kurdish uprising , Turkey would be split and a Kurdistan would be created(if global powers will it)
They would both be weakened and easily controlled = Good for us!

Oudeis asfalesteros exthros ek tou euergentithentos.

We tried to be friends with the Slavs and in return they sold us to the Turks back in 1453. We should not rely on gratitude but rather on raw intimidation and control.


But that's a very unlikely scenario since we can't even make such a decision. It's Eu and USA that would choose for us.
We need to focus on regaining sovereignty first. As much as we can at least...

Well , It's Inseparable Still standing together , how much you guys claim Free Kurdistan or East Greece would exist in future , still there isn't anything solid on that . even majority of Kurds don't support PKK and Bdp , vote for the Erdo instead.

-----------------------------------------------

you complete idiots lol
man, shame dont figure
in greek life
poor souls haha, a day in the life of
some greek wafers is a friendless painfull
thing

Greece with big dreams, I guess only way to escape the **** hole reality of Greece:




I bet you see these images every night in your nightmare:



hahaah

-----------------------------

Top answer Shadow.. but still let's not discount the idea because of the Turkish advantages aganist Greece.. the Kurds are well placed to war the Turks without our help per se.. So you are right, we should let them fight it out.. Still, we should put ourselves in a position to benefit when/if a division of Turkey takes place, that's my point mate..

The rabbit dude..

HAF can provide a safe zone in the event that the Kurds are raping the "born Turkish soldiers" shelter your people and generally feed and look after them.. now wouldn't that be nice of us? C'mon let's be friends.. Your all got Greek blood anyway.. So what if you give back to your rightful brothers that which you shouldn't have taken..

Turkey doesn't need Greece's help in any cases, Varo. The so-called Kurdistan would be a country like Afghanistan without Turkey and Turkey without east would be an industrilized and developed country that Greece will always be neighbouring. If Greeks help Kurds instead of Turks, they will have to keep spending for arms due to hostility and even Turks would like to expand further west. Supposed that Kurds reached the sea. It would be bandit state that would export tons of illegal drugs, heroins, immigrants, smuggled goods and etc. to Greece. Istanbul would be like Cairo or Mumbai and old Greeks would be neighbouring with much younger Kurds. That's impossible however. Islamists love to get fücked by Kurds and they are entwined together. They have no chance in the coastal regions like Izmir against the hardcore Kemalists. As for Istanbul, strategically speaking, rich and secular Turks live in the coastal side of Istanbul can access any support from the sea and it would result with a Kemalist victory and exile of the garbage people. Marmara and Aegean regions would unite under the same forces and Greece would be faced with a much more robust Turkey against itself.

Well , It's Inseparable Still standing together , how much you guys claim Free Kurdistan or East Greece would exist in future , still there isn't anything solid on that . even majority of Kurds don't support PKK and Bdp , vote for the Erdo instead.


================

Is it really that "inseparable" Ilgar? The Syrian civil war is fast becoming a Turkish civil war.. This is an almost certainty, so why resist the idea that Turkey wont split along sectarian and ethnic lines.. It's possible and probable, look at Syria and Iraq.. 10 Years ago if any one had told you that these nations would break up they'd think you crazy.. so why won't you at least consider that the Kurds might not just be happy with the way they are being treated.. in fact, if they are treated half as bad as the Turks do on WAFF.. then wanting a separate homeland is a certainty..

As Waff claims to be a military forum let me tell Griko members something about Turkish Military Doctrine, we organised our military ready for a war against two states (no question one of them is Gayreece) and an interior uprising (guess who). So if Grikos are not dumb enough they have to stay neutral.

...the Kurds are an Iranic people's Toros.. We've dealt with these people'easy enough before.. and if things continue like they do in Turkey at the moment.. will again also..

Iranians view Kurds as Turks view them and Kurds view Iranians as they view Turks.

If it is something the Greeks haven't learned in this millennium is that the Turks are crazy.

I know vara is only trolling but if Greece ever did such a thing, it would be whipped of the map with 7 days. Turkey would give green light to Balkan Turks, Albanians, Macedonians and other minorities to rip apart Greece. Seeing their military, it would be a walk in the park. But looking at Greek historical stupidity, I wouldn't be surprised.


-----------------------------

As Waff claims to be a military forum let me tell Griko members something about Turkish Military Doctrine, we organised our military ready for a war against two states (no question one of them is Gayreece) and an interior uprising (guess who). So if Grikos are not dumb enough they have to stay neutral.


===========

...internal affairs dictate external matters mate.. if your military is SO WELL ORGANISED.. tell me, why can't 500-000 soldiers subdue 5000 PKK? No I think Greece can and should encourage the incoming civil war that will take Turkey by storm.. and position itself as a friend to who ever makes the greatest concessions to Hellas..
 

If it is something the Greeks haven't learned in this millennium is that the Turks are crazy.

I know vara is only trolling but if Greece ever did such a thing, it would be whipped of the map with 7 days. Turkey would give green light to Balkan Turks, Albanians, Macedonians and other minorities to rip apart Greece. Seeing their military, it would be a walk in the park. But looking at Greek historical stupidity, I wouldn't be surprised.


==============

...wrong.. were all well aware of the mental state of the Turk.. trust me, we have NO delusions concerning this matter..

"only trolling" mate if that helps you sleep better.. then by all means believe what you will.. No one, external OR internal has the momentum to " rip apart" Greece.. and I challenge you to prove otherwise.. of course if your referring to the "tremendous" job the TSK has done to destroy the PKK then were all frightened...lol

There is no civil war here . Fight against Terrorism ? that's going for 30 years .If Kurds wanted separation it would happen in the last 30 yrs . Why it's not happening still I wonder ? And it was WORSE in the 90's . They even can't control a %100 majority Kurdish Town just at the border . Terrorist tactics is a different thing , Fighting a civil war is much more different. Closest thing we came for the civil war was the pre-1980 times , and it was much more serious .

-----------------------------------------------

There is no civil war here . Fight against Terrorism ? that's going for 30 years .If Kurds wanted separation it would happen in the last 30 yrs . Why it's not happening still I wonder ? And it was WORSE in the 90's . They even can't control a %100 majority Kurdish Town just at the border . Terrorist tactics is a different thing , Fighting a civil war is much more different. Closest thing we came for the civil war was the pre-1980 times , and it was much more serious


===========

...controlling towns? Mate hate to burst your Turkish bubble, but the Kurds controll not only towns and cities, as evident in the recent abductions of Turkish politicians and the armed state in which Turkish dignitaries need to be protected when travelling and visiting them.. BUT also entire regions.. I think this together with the growing Kurdish nationalism in adjoining countries makes this period INFINITELY more dangerous for the future of a united Turkey..

Ya siz Turkleri hic anlamiyorum, elin bir ermeni-rum piçi boyle bir baslik aciyor siz baliklama atliyorsunuz, siktirin bu yavsagi lan. cevap bile vermeye degmez bu ite.



trans: worry about your own country armenian living in exile in bankrupt Grease:



in 100 years from now I can assure you that the Turkish race will be around here, can you say the same for your aging and declining rum people who are already being overrun by foreign muslim immigrants in their own country hahahaha.
we only have kurdo problem which can be solved just like the armo and rum problems we had solved. dont forget we Turks are experts in wiping out pests from our homeland.








---------------

^^^

LOL..

The AKP with their megalomaniac "Ottoman dreams" have been fuelling the upcoming civil war in Turkey by supporting the Syrian revolt and NOT supporting the American thesis in Iraq.. and NOW we have Turkish dudes like mt.. telling me that the "Turkish race" will be around 100 years from now.. Funny guy.. Especially considering that Turkey is anything BUT homogenous.. in fact most Turks pride themselves on claiming an ethnic identity seperate from "Turkishness" Balkan and Greek, seem to be the most popular and admired ethnicities..

...which one do you claim to be _mt? ...lol

Both. Our interest is Turkey to bleed slowly so they will not be a threat for our interests. Even if kurds win and take 1/³ of the country, still what is left will be abig country and without retarded east they will focus more on aegean.
I doubt an indipendant Kurdistan will profit Greece, but tension and war during many years will definately profit us.

I think without Kurds Turkey will be two times more stronger than now...But Noone can take any piece of territory from Turks in the mideast,territory is like something holy for Turks ...Pkk is just good about organizing sensetional facilities,not a real military asset againist TSK....

"Should Greece help the Turks OR the Kurds "

I bet it would be greek support which decides the result ... LOL

-------------------------------

Greece should follow an ambigious external policy.  We should be vague and pretend to be neutral.  On one hand "talk" to the Turks, but on the other hand support the Kurds.

Just like the Romans, we should help the weaker party (Kurds) so as to indirectly inflight human and financial losses on Turkey and thus weaken it.  Even if the Kurds split from Turkey, there are still millions of Kurds in Constantinople and the Western regions.

The Turks will have more problems in a couple decades as Kurdish birth rates rise, while Turkish population declines.

The strategic long term goal of Greece is to be taking back the occupied parts that belong to us.  As a first goal we should set Northern Cyprus, Imbros, and Tenedos.  However, instead of rushing to finish the Turks off like we did in 1920, we need to be patient, consolidate our positions, Re-Hellenize the population, and then go after Eastern Thraki. 

 

 

 

Hellas, Hellas, n tav n epi tas

"Noone can take any piece of territory from Turks in the mideast,territory is like something holy for Turks"

Uhhh....




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres


Except Britain, France, Russia, Greece, Italy, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc. etc. etc....

and this is how we shoved that treaty up your sissy azzes



Swim Rum-swines swim!





---------------

...controlling towns? Mate hate to burst your Turkish bubble, but the Kurds controll not only towns and cities, as evident in the recent abductions of Turkish politicians and the armed state in which Turkish dignitaries need to be protected when travelling and visiting them.. BUT also entire regions.. I think this together with the growing Kurdish nationalism in adjoining countries makes this period INFINITELY more dangerous for the future of a united Turkey..

-------

Oh come on . Don't they kidnap anybody in Greece ? and they don't even do it in the city center , they do it at Countryside . If they would control that city would they kidnap him there ?


It's mostly assumptions you are talking about Vara . I understand , you are trying to think the worst case scenario . But it's not what it's real . PKK CANNOT operate at Cities . they bomb , kidnap , sometimes assault but that's all . Can't hold ground .


I am repeating again , There isn't even %10 support from Kurds in Turkey even for Pkk .

-----------------------------------------------

there wont be a civil war in turkey..that was always the main goal of pkk and the western imperialists..but turkish nation always knew to seperate pkk and regular kurd citizens..still a kurd free turkey is ideal..also a population exchange with the iraqi turkmens and kurds can be considered.

if majority was not happy about living under turkish flag..the region would already been seperated from turkey by now..the minority that symphatizes with the pkk is the continuation of the kurds that escaped to turkey from saddam during 1st gulf war..they are also the majority who votes for bdp which is the political wing of pkk.

also when u look at the terrorist profile of pkk today..more than %60 is from syria iraq iran armenia and so on..pkk is a cosmopolit terrorist organization..they dont represent the kurds in turkey..bastard tayyip and his party akp always got the highest votes from the region..so as a result..poor gayreeks dont dream about civil wars and such things..worry about your bankrupted gypsy asses..at least I would do that if I were you.

"and this is how we shoved that treaty up your sissy azzes"

Too bad the picture I posted didn't work. It was the expansion of Greece in the Balkan Wars. The only thing you did there involving a$$es was bend over and get yours kicked.

"there wont be a civil war in turkey.."

Regardless of the fact that Turkey has the very same variables that have caused the disintegration of similar nations in the region and externally.. BUT it won't happen in Turkey because its Turkey, right!

 

Oh come on . Don't they kidnap anybody in Greece ? and they don't even do it in the city center , they do it at Countryside . If they would control that city would they kidnap him there ?

...like all country's, Greece isn't immune from criminal activity.. BUT don't confuse criminality with Freedom fighters and their independence movements, which Greece has zilch of.. unlike Turkey, that has a myriad of independence and ethnic rights movements.. due to the oppressive and failed policy of Ataturks attempts at assimilating these "Turks"

It's mostly assumptions you are talking about Vara . I understand , you are trying to think the worst case scenario . But it's not what it's real . PKK CANNOT operate at Cities . they bomb , kidnap , sometimes assault but that's all . Can't hold ground .

...why can't the PKK urbanise it's struggle? it's not like they lack the people of logistics to do so.. the fact that they haven't to date has more to do with winning the hearts and minds of their external backers i think.. than the skill of the Turkish security services..

I am repeating again , There isn't even %10 support from Kurds in Turkey even for Pkk .

...that's a bold statement Ilgar.. revolutions are like corporations.. they control alot with very little.. Hezbollah, Hamas and revolts in Syria and Libya, Tunisia and so on.. 

"The Turks will have more problems in a couple decades as Kurdish birth rates rise, while Turkish population declines."

...this is exactly what the Turks on this forum fail to understand Kallimachos.. fighting the Kurds conventionally JUST won't win them the war or keep Turkey's boarders as they are.. the TSK would be better off loading condoms in the bombs and leaving the explosives out..

"also when u look at the terrorist profile of pkk today..more than %60 is from syria iraq iran armenia and so on..pkk is a cosmopolit terrorist organization..they dont represent the kurds in turkey..bastard tayyip and his party akp always got the highest votes from the region..so as a result..poor gayreeks dont dream about civil wars and such things..worry about your bankrupted gypsy asses..at least I would do that if I were you."

...and what exactly is your point? That Kurdish nationalism somehow doesn't apply to Turkish Kurds because NOT all the PKK fighters are from Turkey.. mate, the this very fact should worry you and your nation more than any other Kurdish development.. Turkey's Kurdish problems have just been regionalized.. which means that Turkey needs to deal with a ENTIRE Kurdish nation.. a worrying development.. Civil war is coming to Turkey.. whether you like it or not.. and I'll let you in on a little secret.. it won't be pretty either..  

"Too bad the picture I posted didn't work. It was the expansion of Greece in the Balkan Wars. The only thing you did there involving a$$es was bend over and get yours kicked."

...correct, modern day Turkey, is nothing more than the Muslim left overs of the Ottoman empire.. there's nothing homogeneous about "Turkey" and it's only natural that modern day "Turkey" will shrink..  

very good question Vara

so really we are asking should Greece enter in some form of peace keeping role in the interests of peace, democracy and stability

well there is a well established theory in international relations that if a nation is too big or small for its strength then there will be instability

Turkey is a case in point...


=============================================

I will add it may be in Greece's interests to support a Kemalist state this will mean the Islamicists will self-implode, leaving them to face the Kurds alone

meanwhile Greece can annexe the fledgling Euro-Kemalist state in 10-15 years (I am thinking long game here)

=============================================

"I will add it may be in Greece's interests to support a Kemalist state this will mean the Islamicists will self-implode, leaving them to face the Kurds alone"

...absolutely, we should be confident and aggressive when dealing with the Turks.. our interests should and must come first, regardless of any historical animosity.. we should play one off against the other.. BUT to be honest Rom.. i don't think we're the only ones that covet these lands.. we'll have to come to an understanding with the Bulgarians, Israelis and Russian and their Armenian vassals.. of course it goes without saying that the Kurds, Circassian, Arabs, Potians, Laz and the Alawite behemoth will need to be given a homeland too.. and not to forget the Turks, both Kemalists and Islamists.. i just hope Anatolia is bigger enough for us all.. 

let the Turks and Kurds rip each other to pieces....

On an ethical level, i would be tempted to say we should not meddle in the internal affairs of another nation.....but given how Turkey has constantly meddled in ours, threatened and provoked us....

then they have not acted in good faith or as a good neighbour....so thus short of war we should support the Kurds as a destabilising factor in Turkey....

long term work to weaken Turkey to suit our strategic aims....

"...and what exactly is your point? That Kurdish nationalism somehow doesn't apply to Turkish Kurds because NOT all the PKK fighters are from Turkey.. mate, the this very fact should worry you and your nation more than any other Kurdish development.. Turkey's Kurdish problems have just been regionalized.. which means that Turkey needs to deal with a ENTIRE Kurdish nation.. a worrying development.. Civil war is coming to Turkey.. whether you like it or not.. and I'll let you in on a little secret.. it won't be pretty either.."

my point is in a region where the current goverment gets the highest votes..there wont be any kind of civil movement..if there would be a civil war in turkey..it would already have happened in the last 30 years..so what you call as a so called kurd nation is the kurd citizens of turkey who voted for bastard tayyip and his goverment in the last 3 elections.

even at the peak of pkk terror back in 1990s..to start such conflict was pkk's main goal but it didnt happen..right now turkish security forces are in full control fighting with terrorist elements..dont read pkk's websites and news agencies that much.kurd problem was always a regional one..it was a regional one during saddam era and even in the beginning of 1900s too..the situation now is the sneaky kurds trying to take advantage of chaos as always.