_______________________________________________________________________________


_______________________________________________________________________________

LOL cheap Turkish technology (hyundai, zastava, Beko) can carry 7 main battle tanks while the super duper Russian Zubr (Greeks drool about) can carry only 2!!!! And they are left with only 1 operational

Greeks how much is 8x7 that we can land at once on a Grik island?

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

7 tanks!!!
i thought that those ships are 1155 tonnes and can carry maximum 3 main battle tanks.....

any info?



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

i thought that those ships are 1155 tonnes and can carry maximum 3 main battle tanks.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah its 1150 tonnes but can carry 7 mbt as seen on the picture.

He read on defencenet that the maximum was 3 mainbattle tanks.

Ze Griks never learn! When you read something on Defencenet, think twice before you accept those farted out "knowledge"

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

Oh, yes. Come to the Greek Uncle, he is waiting with open arms..........................

[IMG][/IMG]



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

GY do you realize how facked you are when you have to trust on Apache's alone to prevent landings?

Maybe it helps to refreshen the brain to mention from time to time the dismal state of the Grik navy:
- Submarine force, 6-7 outdated junk and 1 shaky torpedoless U214
- 6 Elli clas frigates + 4 hopelessly waiting on modernization Hydra class
- Only 4 supervita
- No patrol aircraft
- Whole navy structure shaky due to failing spareparts
- No naval shipyard to maintain the ships
- A grik state on the verge of bankruptcy that can hardly pay the salaries of the personell

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

The more the better. More casualties per sunk ship. Works great for us!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I admire your enthusiasm, but we will not be invading anything with M-48's. We really need to get things moving in the MBT front. I would've like to have seen more Sabra's, but like they say in Turkish, no need to discuss a phucked ***, we will be in this situation for another five years at least!

I Hail The Flag

@Gavuryunan

Thats it ? Just an Apach against several MANPADS(stingers)

Future Turkish 35mm Turkish Spaag's


These will be backing Dozens of infantry and Tanks...your country's only defence is an Apache with questionable cable integrity due to feeding Greek rats?

No wonder Greeks are so paranoid ...they are right to be ...since they dont have proper defence for such an invasion.

-----------------------------------------------

Mr. Nutuk, Apaches alone are enough to do the job, and it is only one of the many many toys that we have. Pray that Allah sends rats again to eat their cables, otherwise you will be unable to stop them.
Our Navy is in better condition than you assume. Answers will be provided in other relative threads. Besides, we will attack landing forces inside the Turkish ports, before they even board the ships.


As I said we have many many other toys too. Again pictures are louder than words:




One difference: Greece uses Mirage-2000/Exocet instead of Super Etendard/Exocet. Of course there are land-based MM-40 Exocet batteries on the islands too.



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

you may aswell put those rusty M60s in containers.... (no surprises you dont put any of your leo2s on those floating ocffins)

as one of the other members above said... the more the better... it means when we sink them like ducks we get more bang for our buck

=============================================

paliomalaka

LOL GY,

The Grik navy is in dismisal form, you know it and this is still your relative good days, imagine after bankruptcy.

Besides do you see any trends in the Turkish navy? Like amphibious capabilities bolstered enormously? LCT's, LST's and LPD (to follow)?
Currently our Perry upgrades have been done, our Meko 200-track I (the older ones) are being upgraded and Meko 200-track II's are in upgrade preparation (their VLS launchers and radars have been ordered)

Compare that to the Greek navy who has no progress at all and in dificult to keep even current numbers, 2 Elli's, 3 Zubr's gone.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

Oh, yes. Come to the Greek Uncle, he is waiting with open arms..........................

------------------------------



Oh yes malaka

Its near to impossible for Turkey's amphibic forces to land on a large island unless they are willing to sacrifice half their aegean army... and without ensuring success!

To ensure your first wave will have even the slightest chance of holding the beach for a second wave to be you will need to achieve a force ratio of at least or even better than 2:1 of what the defenders may deploy on the vicinity of the beach head!

To give a perspective there are big islands with division size formations not counting the local national guard

Expect a 20 to 30% losses of the landing fleet on the way only, so Turkish planners must add even more troops and ships to balance those expected losses during those critical initial stages of the landing operation so they wont have to cancel it before they even set foot on the beach.

That by itself means that you will need relatively big space/open sea to concentrate your fleet and a fairly big beach to land, thus reducing the uncertainty factor on the defenders side in which beach you are going to land. So dont count much on the surprize element either.

Each landing craft you loose or get damaged its going to reduce the pre-planned desirable rate of resources transfer. There is a certain percentage of landing craft losses beyond that the whole operation will be endangered or even canceled. Imagine landing crafts that were to carry the 3rd wave got damaged on the shores, and much needed fuel and ammo as well as a tank company about to reinforce the hard pressed troops on the beachhead never make it on time...

If you do manage to set foot on the beach the second wave must reach the beachhead before the island's defending counterattacking forces are able to perform their main counter attack. Guess who have more chances of reinforcing his troops first!

ampibious operation are the most complex form of operations one will ever have to perform in a potential war...

The more complex an operation is (on youe way to Greek islands), more things will eventually go wrong!

look lets be serious here, the littoral nature of the greek archipelago provides great opportunities for the defender and a big headache for the attacker no doubt about that.... as you say a minimum of 2 to 1 is required in offensive equipment and this is absolute minimum

reality is you will need more like 3 to 1 or 4 to 1....

anyway... the other thing is however of course that it makes it hard for the centralized defender, logistically , command and control etc

my view is that whoever can use the littoral environment to their advantage best will prevail

in other words greece must continue to invest heavily in her navy and if turkey is to stand a chance must make investments also (Which she appears to be doing), however I think the gap between Turkey and Greece in navy right now does not advantage Turkey so much that such an operation by them would be successful...



=============================================

7 tanks!!!
i thought that those ships are 1155 tonnes and can carry maximum 3 main battle tanks.....

any info?
_______________________________________

They can carry more cargo and trade max speed, with 3 MBTs they achieve the max speed

Mr. Nutuk, we do not need the Navy to whip your butts. The Air Force and the island garrisons are more than enough to prevent any landings, given the current balance of air power. When you receive the F-35, we can talk again.


Yobazsiken:
Is this all you have got? Stingers mounted on M-113, with a range of 4 km? Is this how you plan to stop the Apache attack helicopters? You amuse us. Now I worry even less!


Perseas and Romulus:
Your arguments are correct. There are many other details, which need not be discussed here.The new Turkish LCT can carry 320 tons of cargo, or 7 tanks, or 250 soldiers. Maximum speed is 22 knots. The more it can carry the better!

Bottom line is : The Aegean is guarded by a savage watchdog called the Hellenic Air Force. If they do not kill it, they will not even dare to leave their ports. Under the current balance of air power , this is very unlikely. End of the story. No need to analyze it further.


But I have a question for the Turks:
Why do they dream territorial expansion so badly? Turkey has an area of 780,000 square kilometers, bigger than Germany and Britain combined. Is that not enough?



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Nice ships !!! Turkish amphibic capabilities are growing by time !!




@ GY

You have to keep your offensive thinking when you are surrounded by countries which you can't trust ^^

and ...

If you don't have a navy in 5-8 years and Turkey would have lets say 10 ships with high number VLS which can also fire indigenous cruise missiles with ranges up to 600-1000 km... won't you miss your navy ? ^^

But OK I understand you, if turkey has that weapons, nothing can help greece anymore, no need to waste debts on ships, right ?

-------------------------------

TrabzonLee_61:
I do not know what happen in the future, I am not prophet Mohammed. I know what happens NOW. Right now you are not strong enough to attack us, and you will not be before you get the F-35.

No offence, but we do not worry at all about your indigenous cruise missiles.

You guys hope that the Greek Navy will simply vanish. I can understand it, since you have never beaten it in battle since 1821.

Anyway right now we rely mostly on the Air Force.



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Mr. Arnaki is forgetting that Turkey is not investing only in amphibious and navy but also in airforce (200+ CCIP upgrades), indigenous cruisemissiles and various ammunitions/missiles, longrange MRL's and bridges for the evros.

We won't attack only in one place but widespread on multiple fronts, we simply have the manpower and also airsuperiority since we can refuel our aircraft in the air unlike Greece who will see their airbases destroyed one by one by longrange missiles, cruise missiles and bombardments.

So you guys say we need a manpower of 4:1, suppose yes would that be a problem for us?

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

For the time being only Greece has long-range, high-precision cruise missiles. As for the future Turkish cruise missiles and MLRS , they will be a bigger failure than Panter howitzers. Of course the Turks will "gain experience" again.

We have been through the issue of Turkish CCIP before. We disagree on the numbers of F-16s that will be modernized. I say 117 , Turks say 210. Even if all Turkish F-16s were upgraded, Turks would not gain air superiority, especially if we count in Air Defences: Dozens of Turkish aircraft will be shot down by the modern Greek Air defence. I do not believe current Turkish Air defence can inflict serious casualties on us.

We already have 1st class stuff (Apache, Leo-2A6, SCALP, Patriot). The Turks are struggling to acquire 3rd class stuff (T-129, HYUNDAI tanks etc) . I think we are safe at present.




..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Re:GY****
For the time being only Greece has long-range, high-precision cruise missiles. As for the future Turkish cruise missiles and MLRS , they will be a bigger failure than Panter howitzers. Of course the Turks will "gain experience" again.

We have been through the issue of Turkish CCIP before. We disagree on the numbers of F-16s that will be modernized. I say 117 , Turks say 210. Even if all Turkish F-16s were upgraded, Turks would not gain air superiority, especially if we count in Air Defences: Dozens of Turkish aircraft will be shot down by the modern Greek Air defence. I do not believe current Turkish Air defence can inflict serious casualties on us.

We already have 1st class stuff (Apache, Leo-2A6, SCALP, Patriot). The Turks are struggling to acquire 3rd class stuff (T-129, HYUNDAI tanks etc) . I think we are safe at present.
***
I presume you are trolling,because if you are not you don't know anything
about military matters.So don't give up the day job yet General!!!

An old soldier

Sorry,double post

Stavrogonno:

I never troll, and if you push me I will start posting what General Bedrettin Demirel had said about the combat value of you Mucahid insurgents in 1974.




..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Write about Greek achievements in 1974, how ye Greeks kept worthy garantor.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

Nutuk why don't you tell us a few insides from Hobbit? It's about to be released in December or something

Ah, Mr. Nutuk, your name is not "Stavrogonno", is it?

I strongly recommend that you also read the memoirs of General Demirel. The Turkish title is PASA ILE GENERAL.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Ye Griks are hopeless, losing half of the island and seeking comfort in memoires

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

honestly armchair general with that "losing half of islands" I have to say,

It is not over yet. We are very patient, and we will come back, as we came back in all the other islands.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

We already have 1st class stuff (Apache, Leo-2A6, SCALP, Patriot). The Turks are struggling to acquire 3rd class stuff (T-129, HYUNDAI tanks etc) . I think we are safe at present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Those Turks can just now erase you from world map with Hundred of Ballistic missiles J-600T YildirimII with the more than 300 km range of while your tanks were sleeping in the Saloniki +SOM Missile,SLAM-ERs,Otokar Cobras,BMC Kirpi Etc lol 3rd class? stuff





Malaka Muni

no matter what Greeks say, Turkey possess one of the largest amphibious force in the world





Victory Through Air Power

That what happens when Yildirim ballistic missiles burn you .

@yobazsiken

Burning forests is ******* retarded. Stop being a brainwashed kurd



Victory Through Air Power

Re;GY***
I never troll, and if you push me I will start posting what General Bedrettin Demirel had said about the combat value of you Mucahid insurgents in 1974.
***

Do you really think I give a **** what some pompous general said? Us mucahit were
effective enough for eleven years. If it wasn't for us Cyprus would have been
another Rhodos or Crete.I would expect bit more from a General for people who
fought tooth and nail against big odds for their freedoms.
Now fvck off you wanabe general!!!

Long live KKTC Long live TMT

An old soldier

@yobazsiken

Burning forests is ******* retarded. Stop being a brainwashed kurd

--------------------------------------
Amina korum akilli ol it

babandir kürt

piç

---------------------
i fck ur pussy ,your father is kurd bastard

STFU



-Atam Sen Kalkta Ben YATAM

Tryfield


They can carry more cargo and trade max speed, with 3 MBTs they achieve the max speed
-----------------------------------------------------------------
yes of course my bad,i thought that there is a maximum load for a ferry for tanks up to 50 tonnes..anyways

@tryfield/gavur
also i have to add something about the scenario you debate about
i agree that for turks to land and to take one of the major islands the odds are bad for them
the casualties of the amphibius ships and general transports as helixes will be big to repeat a big landing or even re enforcing
also i know that our navy and our airforce are in pieces that is way i want to mantion something

the turks will attack in multiple fronts
in agean will gonna use our units naval/air mostly to defend big islands and secondary for thrace coast line and after the agean as a whole

turks interese (i believe)only for kastelorizo and north dwdekanisa(petrol)
where the group of islands of kalumnos leros patmos leipsoi and agathonisi are......

assuming that we try to defend the others those islands where have limited army could fail easy to turks,turks enforcing those islands with MBT.TOMA artillery and a/a while we still re enforcing big islands
turks probably will not go for big islands with big populations cause of defence of those islands and the population
maybe at one small of the big islands the is closer to them...samos maybe?
turks will try to get more than after can keep,they will leave samos for the favor of the international community and keep the smaller ones....

we lost those islands.....................................





............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

Stavrogonno:
I will post what General Demirel said when I find you on-line again. You will laugh a lot.
Why dont you visit Rhodes to see how the small Turkish community lives there? In my opinion, they live much better than the Turkish-Cypriots.

The only major conflict in Cyprus before 1974 was the Turkish-Cypriot rebellion of 1963-1964. Although Turkey had armed you to the teeth, although you had much more and better weapon than the Greeks, you were beaten and you retreated in those small enclaves. Many Turkish-Cypriots who were unwilling to get locked up in the enclaves were forced to follow by TMT. The only reason the Greeks did not eliminate the enclaves was international pressure and the desire to avoid a war with Turkey.

So do not talk to us about the efficiency of the mucahids, because Turkish sources and the study of the facts testify to the contrary.



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Let me just summarize my position on this:

If

Red = Turkey and
Blue = Greece

X = large inhabited island
Y = small unihabited island

Red wins if it can capture X (primary objective) or Y (secondary objective).

To capture X Red must be able to enforce a naval blockade. If Red can enforce a naval blockade on X, Red wins. If Blue can break the naval blockade the Blue wins and Red loses.

To capture Y Red must be able to land marines there and keep them there. If Red can keep marines on Y then Red wins. If Blue can "neutralize" any Red assets on Y then Blue wins and Red loses.

in either scenarion (X or Y) Red or Blue win depending on the degree of aerial-naval power they can project to X or Y.

simple really.




=============================================

@tryfield
"Expect a 20 to 30% losses of the landing fleet on the way only, so Turkish planners must add even more troops and ships to balance those expected losses during those critical initial stages of the landing operation so they wont have to cancel it before they even set foot on the beach.

That by itself means that you will need relatively big space/open sea to concentrate your fleet and a fairly big beach to land, thus reducing the uncertainty factor on the defenders side in which beach you are going to land. So dont count much on the surprize element either.

Each landing craft you loose or get damaged its going to reduce the pre-planned desirable rate of resources transfer. There is a certain percentage of landing craft losses beyond that the whole operation will be endangered or even canceled. Imagine landing crafts that were to carry the 3rd wave got damaged on the shores, and much needed fuel and ammo as well as a tank company about to reinforce the hard pressed troops on the beachhead never make it on time...

If you do manage to set foot on the beach the second wave must reach the beachhead before the island's defending counterattacking forces are able to perform their main counter attack. Guess who have more chances of reinforcing his troops first!

ampibious operation are the most complex form of operations one will ever have to perform in a potential war..."
---------------------------------------------------------
perseas stop teaching the art of war to these people they just do not get it!!!!!



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

There you go wrong Panos, why would we settle for a few tiny islands. Populations of the islands are not a problem, we just put them on a boat with one way ticket.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

@akatanomastos

Like I said before Turks are not in any position to perform big scale amphibious operations.

To perform such an operation they will be needing up to a week of very intence preparations and no less than 4 days. We will be alarmed the least, or we will even try a pre-emptive strike against such a concentration of force.

GEETHA knows this and thats why they exercise the joint DELTA Force so rigorously the last couple of months, they may anticipate that the only possible surprize move TSK can do at the time is a limited operation against a small island with the usesage of a unit no bigger than battalion, most likely a commando unit with the addition of SOF elements. If they use anything bigger we will notice it immediately!

ASDEN and GEETHA are well prepared and our boys well trained to respond fast and decisively. If they try anything they will take a lesson to remember for the decades to come...

Why don't you give them instead a premier ticket for the new upcoming movie you are starring in?

let me say this one more time

in the current situation greek and turkish aerial and naval assets are more or less balanced this means turkey cannot achieve a blockade of any greek island and hence cannot achieve a successful amphibious assault on an island

if turkish naval and air force plans materialize (LPH, firgates, milgems, subs, F-35 etc) and greece does not counterbalance them somehow then it may be feasible for example if Turkey has an LPH to the west of Kastellorizo for example with plenty of milgems, frigates and F-35 preventing the hellenic navy from getting there, in this scenario Turkey could take Kastellorizo...

however in this scenario we are assuming Greece will do absolutely nothing to counter the threat from F-35, milgems, turkish frigates, LPH etc

that is quite unrealistic, at a minimum we can expect some FREMMS, upgrades to the F-16, completion of U214 order +/- other stuff (and also you don't know what role the Israeli Air Force can play here)



=============================================

perseas stop teaching the art of war to these people they just do not get it!!!!!
_____________________________________________________

I know they dont, I am mostly refering to our fellow hoplites

To perform such an operation they will be needing up to a week of very intence preparations and no less than 4 days. We will be alarmed the least, or we will even try a pre-emptive strike against such a concentration of force.

GEETHA knows this and thats why they exercise the joint DELTA Force so rigorously the last couple of months, they may anticipate that the only possible surprize move TSK can do at the time is a limited operation against a small island with the usesage of a unit no bigger than battalion, most likely a commando unit with the addition of SOF elements. If they use anything bigger we will notice it immediately!

ASDEN and GEETHA are well prepared and our boys well trained to respond fast and decisively. If they try anything they will take a lesson to remember for the decades to come...
--------------------------------------------------------
true the suprise element for a primary target in aegean is missing
the distance between greek islands and turkey is very close,you can see houses clearly in the other side
tens of ships of 2000 tons,1155 tons,or 600 tons will full the optic view

and if consider that the first three waves of the landing must got each one transports with troops already loaded
thus the number of transport needed for the operation is increased no need to take acount auxiliary ships as search and rescue and many more
the good thing is that beaches on the islands near to turkey are not very wide enough to deploy troops at once
hence turks will need to land in more than 2 places .....
and this make it more difficult for the attacker and easier for the defender cause the enemy divide it's forces to attack an island...






............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

the other thing is that the Turkish armed forces do not even appear to be capable of a conventional land operation , for example I read today that Hakkari is under complete control by the Kurds now!

so how do they expect to launch an expeditionary (and amphibious at that) Campaign against Greece!?



=============================================

the other thing is that the Turkish armed forces do not even appear to be capable of a conventional land operation

___________________________________________________

They are so obviously stupid they perform exercises like EFES they will never have the slightest chance to implement in real operations.
While on the same time their 1st Army receive exceptional theoretical training through detail "seminars"...

In 1922 they had Kemal to save their sorry assess through his exceptional military leadership, this time the best they can hope is Erdogans prays to reach Allah!

they might even lose the landing point!!!!

"The Turkish task force set sail from Mersin port at 11.30 on 19 July.[1] At first, at about 05.00 of the 20th of July the fleet reached the northern coast of Cyprus. It initially missed the designated beach of Pentemili, and approached the unsuitable rocky beach of Glykiotissa, 3 km west of Kyrenia. The planned time for the beginning of the disembarkation was 05.30, but because of this mistake, the landing of the first crafts took place at 07.15. The landing finished at about 13.00."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pentemili_beachhead_%281974%29



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

You should stop reading defencenet Romy, it's not healty for your perception of realism.

There is no naval balance between Turkey and Greece, you know it very well. Turkish ships freely come at sightseeing tours in front of Athens.

We are just patient people, with planned tactics. Our modernization programs won't finish before 2020, by that time Greece will be at Bangladesh status and Greeks will hail us in as liberators.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

So you are not ready yet Mr. Nutuk? You must prepare till 2020? Good to hear. We agree for once.




..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

well this is the point.. I made this point above

it seems we all agree

Turkey is not ready now

MAYBE in 2020

why I say maybe

a) will the Turkish indigenous products:

i) materilaize by 2020
ii) be sufficiently functional and capable of the task (i.e not subject to "teething" problems)

b) will Greece do nothing by then? what systems can / will Greece procure?

c) what will the role of "third parties" be (Russia, Israel, USA, Eurozone)

so yes Mr Nutuk Turkey has big ambitious plans, but it is not 2020 yet, and until then there is plenty of time for things to happen / change.

=============================================

We are always ready to crush little bug Greece that's not the point, but we do not do anything unplanned. We have a nice structure of getting our armed forces independent on foreign weaponry to ensure the maximum profit once we go on war.

See our frigates for instance we install Turkish combat management systems on them, they will be equipped with Turkish torpedo's, missiles, EW units, counter measures etc. etc. At the moment our naval assets have not fully converted yet, the Perry's are ready but the 8 Meko's are still in conversion process. Adding to that Milgems.

When we war mr. Arnaki, we won't settle for a few tiny islets (like you Greeks like to fantasize), we go for the big price and for that we just need independency on weaponry.

The analogy may not be correct but the main basics are: can you imagine what would have been if Hitler Germany declared war on Europe with French and English weapons? Would it have been possible at all to begin with? If your answer is no, than you know what is still stopping us.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

my bet is Turkey is heading for a big fall if you pursue this policy

it is hubristic

yes it is good to have so called "independency" of weaponry though in reality you are independent only in subsystems, however your ultimate goal is unrealistic (becoming a major power)...

you are gonna get blown away like Germany did

=============================================

well little midget, when you 'll stop using future tense about the capability of your indigenous painted buckets you produce, or when you 'll slightly try something against us, then we may, I say may, take your barking threats seriously and act accordingly. Till that time comes, f@ck off and go play with your playmobils

All right, let me get the point. They can go to war tomorrow, but they do not want to. First they want to "turkify" their inventory further, to be more immune to international pressure.

But the outcome is the same: No war till 2020 at least. Good!

Meanwhile we can take our time to suck some gas out of the East Mediterranean basin, while the Turks are "preparing".



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

heheh ^^

good one...

=============================================

Don't want to be rude on Greece but you can only suck dicks!

The Casus belli is still standing and we have not changed our minds.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

^^^^^^^^

blah, blah, blah...

This song is for all turko waiting 2020

In the year 2525:



LOOOOOL

The big money is at the Eastern Mediterranean gas fields (i.e. Cyprus EEZ) and around Crete. The Aegean can wait. The Turkish threats proved empty in September 2011. Apparently they have not finished their preparations yet!

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Well than why are you guys talking, go ahead what is stopping you?

In the meantime we simply carry on to prepare our amphibious forces against the PKK.


--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

Re:GY
****

Stavrogonno:
I will post what General Demirel said when I find you on-line again. You will laugh a lot.
Why dont you visit Rhodes to see how the small Turkish community lives there? In my opinion, they live much better than the Turkish-Cypriots.

The only major conflict in Cyprus before 1974 was the Turkish-Cypriot rebellion of 1963-1964. Although Turkey had armed you to the teeth, although you had much more and better weapon than the Greeks, you were beaten and you retreated in those small enclaves. Many Turkish-Cypriots who were unwilling to get locked up in the enclaves were forced to follow by TMT. The only reason the Greeks did not eliminate the enclaves was international pressure and the desire to avoid a war with Turkey.

So do not talk to us about the efficiency of the mucahids, because Turkish sources and the study of the facts testify to the contrary.
****

I can smell the BS all the way here.
We were armed to the teeth?
We were better armed?
Where the hell you get this BS?
In those early years if it were't for the British the only weapons we
would have were sling-shots.
We had Enfields,Stens and Brens-all from the british army,given or stolen.
Mr know it all,I got news for you.You know jack-****.
Like I said you are eighter trolling or you are an idiot!!!
Coming on WAFF giving it the biggen.
I must be a bigger idiot to have thought you were a serious poster once!!!

An old soldier.

Stavrogonno:
I thought Turkey had armed you. I did not know that the British helped you too. It shows how against us the odds were.
Give us more details on this: How much weapons did the British gice you ? In what other ways did they help you against us? You were there, you will know!


In 1963 Lee-Enfield, Stens and Brens were still very good weapons, and many units in the Turkish and Greek Armies still used them.

We had the same weapons but in much smaller quantities.

By the way since you know so much could you tell us who were Ayhan Hikmet and Ahmed Muzafer Gurkhan?



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Quote Stavrogonno:

"In those early years if it were't for the British the only weapons we
would have were sling-shots.
We had Enfields,Stens and Brens-all from the british army,given or stolen."


What else do i need to say? I rest my case! I copied his exact words, just in case he erases what he has just written.

The British armed them against us!



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Re :GY
****

Quote Stavrogonno:

"In those early years if it were't for the British the only weapons we
would have were sling-shots.
We had Enfields,Stens and Brens-all from the british army,given or stolen."

What else do i need to say? I rest my case! I copied his exact words, just in case he erases what he has just written.

The British armed them against us!


*****

Are you for real? Do you think the problems started in 63?
What I wrote is common knowledge,I don't need to erase jack ****.Just because you
didn't know ,not that I am surprised-it is not news.

In the 50s the Brits employed thousends of TCs and used them against GCs and EOKA.
Some of these guys were TMT so you work out the rest.
Or did you think we were gona wait about like lambs.

If you want to know things in general,ask.I have no info on individuals for you.

As for you claiming that you had arms in small numbers
is an insult.Make up your mind you want to be a serious poster or a troll.
If you choose the latter ,crack on.

An old soldier

Stavrogonno:

I promised a quote of General Demirel on the Mucahids:

First of all I must say that at a point he praises the Mucahids: ""Those who really fought and brought the victory were the 4 paratrooper battalions, the 4 commando battalions from Bolu, the Jandarma commandos of Nevsehir and the Turkish Cypriot Mucahid"

But then he goes on to draw a very different picture:
On 22-7-1974, the Mucahids of the Nicosia- Bogaz enclave had orders to approach Girne from the South, support the main Turkish offensive with their fire and link up with the main forces of the Turkish Army. However they did absolutely nothing, and remained idle at their positions. This was very serious, because if the enclave and the bridgehead did not link up, the entire Invasion would fail.

General Demirel, who led the offensive, was not happy about this.

Here is what he wrote about the incident:

"Later we learnt that the Mucahids were watching our offensive from the nearby hills, as if they were watching a football game. They said they could not support us, because the area was covered with olive-trees!"

And of course read my sig ans see what he thought of your community:


..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Re:GY
***
"Later we learnt that the Mucahids were watching our offensive from the nearby hills, as if they were watching a football game. They said they could not support us, because the area was covered with olive-trees!"
***

BS.The only people who could watch the offencive from the hills were GCs. TCs were on the flats.Besides linking up was led by the paras.Mucahit had enough trouble holding the line against heavy weapons and tanks.TCs didnt have the men or firepower to go on the offensive and hold their lines.Know this though if it werent for some mucahit who new their geogrphy
alot more turkish soldiers would have died. Mr Bedreddin trying to cover his *** for the oprational errors he made.

Turkish soldiers up to Majors fought like lions.If it werent for their bravery and sacrifise the plans of the
generals would have failed,big time!!!

The difference between you and me is-you telling me what you heard or somebody said and me telling you what I saw and
lived throuhg-who is got more credibility?

It is like me telling you I dont like your mums cooking which I never tried.You get my point?

An old soldiers

Stavrogonno:

Wrong again Mister. You held the hills south of Girne / Kyrenia, and of course you held the strategic mount St Hilarion, and the heights around it.

The Turkish Army reinforced the Nicosia-Bogaz enclave with 3000 commandos on Day 1. They held the lines, not you. Greek tanks were a few obsolete T-34. Many of them did not work, and those that did were destroyed by the Turkish Air force or by the Turkish commandos who had modern Cobra A/T launchers. You did not do very much. For Gods sake you were fighting under complete, overwhelming Turkish air domination, and the Greek units could hardly move in daylight!

The Nicosia-Bogaz enclave contain the bulk of Turkish Cypriot military units, 7 out of 10 battalions. You had the men.

However you did do something. You created extra fronts. You kept many Greek units busy, and they were not available to fight the main Turkish force. That was your main contribution.

What are the operational errors General Demirel made? I can prove the opposite. Demirel saved the operation from total collapse on 22-7-1974.

My source is the Commander of the 39th Division , a Turkish General, the very man who led the attack. Demirel was there . You were not . You were in a small village in Paphos. By the way, the Paphos enclave collapsed on day 1.It is the word of a Turkish General who was there against the word of an irregular insurgent (i.e. a Taliban) who was not there.

You were not a soldier. You were an insurgent.An irregular. Something like PKK men. There is a difference.

I will also post videos and testimonies of TURKISH soldiers who were there and describe the war crimes of both the Mucahid and the Turkish Army. I will also post how you guys fvcked up the Turkish Navy.

I am still very much interested in your input on the facts BEFORE July 1974.



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Re:GY
***

Stavrogonno:

Wrong again Mister. You held the hills south of Girne / Kyrenia, and of course you held the strategic mount St Hilarion, and the heights around it.

The Turkish Army reinforced the Nicosia-Bogaz enclave with 3000 commandos on Day 1. They held the lines, not you. Greek tanks were a few obsolete T-34. Many of them did not work, and those that did were destroyed by the Turkish Air force or by the Turkish commandos who had modern Cobra A/T launchers. You did not do very much. For Gods sake you were fighting under complete, overwhelming Turkish air domination, and the Greek units could hardly move in daylight!

The Nicosia-Bogaz enclave contain the bulk of Turkish Cypriot military units, 7 out of 10 battalions. You had the men.

However you did do something. You created extra fronts. You kept many Greek units busy, and they were not available to fight the main Turkish force. That was your main contribution.

What are the operational errors General Demirel made? I can prove the opposite. Demirel saved the operation from total collapse on 22-7-1974.

My source is the Commander of the 39th Division , a Turkish General, the very man who led the attack. Demirel was there . You were not . You were in a small village in Paphos. By the way, the Paphos enclave collapsed on day 1.It is the word of a Turkish General who was there against the word of an irregular insurgent (i.e. a Taliban) who was not there.

You were not a soldier. You were an insurgent.An irregular. Something like PKK men. There is a difference.

I will also post videos and testimonies of TURKISH soldiers who were there and describe the war crimes of both the Mucahid and the Turkish Army. I will also post how you guys fvcked up the Turkish Navy.

I am still very much interested in your input on the facts BEFORE July 1974.
.
***

The only thing you got right is the spelling of GIRNE!!!
We did not hold St Hilarion GCs did.There is no hills big enough to count for anything
south of Girne mountains,only to the east and west.
Yes,I was in a small vilage in south,called Stavrogonno.The only vilage that didn't collapse and fought till
the second ceasefire.
When we crossed from south to north we had our guns and held the flag high.
The event is well documented,ask any one of your sourses.

I'll give you one peice of info though when the operation was analisid afterwards
TCs were forbidden to partisipade by those generals,ask yourself -why?

Biggest error ,landing at Girne against advise,than again what do we know?
We were some lowly mucahit.

By the way don't make assumptions about my person, you don't know who I was or am.
you'd be very surprised.

An old soldier

Stavrogonno:
I am starting to doubt that you even were in Cyprus in 1963-1974!

YOU HELD THE ST. HILARION CASTLE SINCE 1963. YOU HELD IT IN 1974. I KNOW THIS VERY WELL BECAUSE ST. HILARION CASTLE WAS THE MOST STRATEGIC POINT ON THE ENTIRE ISLAND.EITHER YOU IGNORE THE FACTS OR YOU ARE LYING.

Again you were not a soldier, you were an insurgent, something like the Talibans in Afghanistan. Thank you for acknowledging that all enclaves were overrun in 48 hours except from the Nicosia-Bogaz enclave.

The Turkish Generals forbade you to participate in Phase II because you were of little military value, and you would only create confusion.

All right field-marshall Stavrogonno, terll us why Girne (Pente Mili) beach was a bad choice , and where they should have landed.

By the way I do not know who you are and I do not care to learn.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Re:GY

You are not worth responding to.
Carry on trolling and stop wasting my time!!!

AN old soldier

"Expect a 20 to 30% losses of the landing fleet on the way only, so Turkish planners must add even more troops and ships to balance those expected losses during those critical initial stages of the landing operation so they wont have to cancel it before they even set foot on the beach. "

you don't even have a clue about military matters, do you ? did you ever seen loss of landing fleet in entire history ? simple no, its just because you send them only when you secure the way, neutralize the coastal artillery etc.. not before, if you can't secure the way , you don't send them, thats simple.

^^^^^forget history this is modern era,weapons have change
unless you speak for ww2 or even korean war........



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

" There is no naval balance between Turkey and Greece, you know it very well. Turkish ships freely come at sightseeing tours in front of Athens."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well those tours are possible because the politicians in Athens are useless. When you tried pullling such stunts to countries with efficient leadership, you ended up with some bag over your operators' heads or with 10 or your citizens/agents killed, in international waters. In my opinion Turkey's armed forces will only be or better, appear as strong as we allow them.





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"We are just patient people, with planned tactics. Our modernization programs won't finish before 2020, by that time Greece will be at Bangladesh status and Greeks will hail us in as liberators."


simply we call those people as cowards!!!
they bark always for the next decade....
i am in this forum from 2004 reading and 2005 posting
turks back then they barked about 2012...
now for 2020.......
credibility zero



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

If our credibility is zero, than why are you Greeks spending twice the amount of percentage to your GDP on defence compared to the rest of Europe? Are you retards?

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

@Talatpastruma

you don't even have a clue about military matters, do you ? did you ever seen loss of landing fleet in entire history ? simple no, its just because you send them only when you secure the way, neutralize the coastal artillery etc.. not before, if you can't secure the way , you don't send them, thats simple.
________________________________________

How long would it take for Turkey to secure an amhibious assault?
Maybe like for ever?

What ISTAR capabilities do you have to remove those important operational uncertainties? Even against Syria the uncertainty factor of their out dated air defences effectiveness was so great you failed to respond and you think against Greece you will do better?

LOL

Thats why I m keep telling you all EFES exercises are a total waste, you will never have the chance nor the much needed time to secure such a complex operation and proceed with implementation in a potential conflict.

obviously turkey can not invade greece with positive outcome for turks right now
that is way you are always in the procces of prepering,thus for the moment you are unable to attack us
then why all turks saying that they can reach athens in 2 days?r u a retard?



............................................

""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
...........................................

"in the current situation greek and turkish aerial and naval assets are more or less balanced"
--------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly are you smoking?





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He is quite right actually, especially about the Air Force


Air Force:

Greece:
200 F-16 and Mirage-2000
37 modernized F-4
modern air defence

Turkey:
235 F-16
49 modernized F-4 (declining availability)
obsolete air defence



Navy:

Greece:
13 frigates
8 submarines (+3 U214 in the next 18 months)

Turkey:
16 frigates
8 corvettes
14 submarines

Both sides have equally modern ASW helicopters , Turkey has a medium advantage in missile boats.





..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

"He is quite right actually, especially about the Air Force"
------------------------

He's wrong in every respect. Their entire Viper (40s and 50s) fleet is getting CCIP level in great numbers (as we speak) and their Phantom force is huge enough to simply affect "the balance" (upgraded or not). They got tankers and soon to be receiving superior AWACS platforms than ours. Air-defence-wise they probably don't worry since they got enough CAP packets to cover the gaps in their airspace. Navy-wise don't even go there. Their SM-1 is an important factor of superiority, ASW-chooper-wise they're sky-high, MPA-wise they're on their own and their huge sub fleet is simply enough to keep our obsolote fleet of Kortenaers rather busy.

There is no balance whatsoever. But that is not to say that we're doomed, or anything like that. It's just not balanced.





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Air Force:

Greece:
200 F-16 and Mirage-2000
37 modernized F-4
modern air defence

Turkey:
235 240 F-16
49 53 modernized F-4 (declining availability)
obsolete air defence



Navy:

Greece:
13 12 frigates
8 submarines (+3 U214 in the next 18 months) (actually 7 obsolete and 1 torpedoless shaky U214)

Turkey:
16 frigates
8 9 corvettes (1 Milgem already taken in service, 1 Milgem in testphase)
14 submarines (actually 6 obsolete + 8 modern)

Both sides have equally 11 vs 24 modern ASW helicopters , Turkey has a medium advantage in missile boats.

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

It's not a simple numbers comparison. We're not in the 2004-2010 era when HAF was doing well, with great numbers of modern platforms. Nowadays the quality superiority is switching sides due to the CCIP project, which on its own, offers them a slight numerical superiority of high-quality platforms as well.





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@TheEvian100

Basically you are right about the air force power, but there is one thing for attention specifically the status of BVR missiles in Greek use.

GREECE
130 AIM-120C-7
150 AIM-120C-5
190 AIM-120B
300 MICA EM/ER
---------------
770 MISSILES

TURKS
107 AIM-120C-7
350 AIM-120B
---------------
457 MISSILES

P.S. I don't count obsolete missiles like AIM-7E-E2 or 7F, Super 530D in both sides.







April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

You are WRONG Evian100. Only 117 Turkish F-16s will get CCIP upgrade, and only 76 of them will get the full upgrade package.I can give you links in greek defence magazines, and I can give you links to the website of Lockheed Martin.And CCIP does not make the aircraft brand new.
Their unmodernized F-4s will make little difference. Their modernized F-4 will never take off in case of war. You forgot that they have Israeli mission computers!
We have more and better missiles , both A/G and A/A.

I remember very well the days when they had 2:1 air superiority(1988-2003). Then we had good reason to fear. Those days are GONE.
Our air defence will down dozens of their aircraft. They cannot do the same. If there is 1:1 exchange ratio in losses of A/A battles, they will LOSE the attrition war.

The Air Force will decide the outcome, not the Navy.
Their submarines is a problem ,but we have enough ASW assets, and we will soon close the gap when we receive the remaining U214.



..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

"Basically you are right about the air force power, but there is one thing for attention specifically the status of BVR missiles in Greek use.

GREECE
130 AIM-120C-7
150 AIM-120C-5"
-------------------------------

True that, but in reality all their CCIPs will get proper ECM/ESM suite while our 30 and 50s (and EGMs) will be naked. It's good to have fancy missiles but taking care of the safety of you launching platforms is also an issue. Currently only a good 135ish modern Vipers and M2k5s have proper protection while being able to effectively fire and guide those fancy toys (MICAs, C5s and C7s).


PS. AFaik Tuaf has about 100 C7s (delivered or on order).





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" You forgot that they have Israeli mission computers! "
Gavur you trolling or serious ? If you are , then wasn't excepting this from you man .

-----------------------------------------------

The ASPIS II for the F-16 Blk52+ and ASPIS I upgrade for the F-16 Blk 30/50 have started so far I know?

http://www.hellenicdefence.gr/eidiseis/e2012/120504b.html







April/21/2012
Turkey is not like China. Turkey is, just like Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
www.hurriyetdailynews.com

-----------------------------------------------
"You are WRONG Evian100. Only 117 Turkish F-16s will get CCIP upgrade, and only 76 of them will get the full upgrade package.I can give you links in greek defence magazines, and I can give you links to the website of Lockheed Martin.And CCIP does not make the aircraft brand new."
-----------------------------------------------

Even the lite package for the 30s will make them "non-naked" unlike our relatively modern 50D, not mention the EGM/BGM and b30 fleet; which will indeed stay naked, for at least another decade.

-----------------------------------------------
"Their unmodernized F-4s will make little difference. Their modernized F-4 will never take off in case of war. You forgot that they have Israeli mission computers!
We have more and better missiles , both A/G and A/A."
-----------------------------------------------

Errmm that's BS, but it's a common mistake among fanboys over here. They got 100+ Phantoms ready to go (with either lite or Term. upgrade), we on the other hand have 60- A-7E/F-4EAUP. The former are unpgraded (avionics-wise) and don't even have BVR capability.

-----------------------------------------------
"I remember very well the days when they had 2:1 air superiority(1988-2003). Then we had good reason to fear. Those days are GONE.
Our air defence will down dozens of their aircraft. They cannot do the same. If there is 1:1 exchange ratio in losses of A/A battles, they will LOSE the attrition war."
-----------------------------------------------

There was never reason for fear, there's always reason for logic. In that case I've shown you the invalidity of the "balance argument".

-----------------------------------------------
"The Air Force will decide the outcome, not the Navy.
Their submarines is a problem ,but we have enough ASW assets, and we will soon close the gap when we receive the remaining U214."
-----------------------------------------------

In the modern era you take care of subs with ASW aircraft and choppers, not frigates. Frigates are multi-purpose nowdays and ours are sitting ducks even for unmodernised Phantom attacks. We got no theatre defence capability, and ESSM is available only for 4 odd units. In reality the Navy's in a for a proper nasty clvsterfvck in the Aegean. The HAF has no number to look after it.





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"ASPIS I upgrade for the F-16 Blk 30/50 have started so far I know?"
----------------------------

Slow progress, with no secure funding and too little, too late... since it seems the 30s will go anyway quite soon. And the project has not finished, i.e. the fleet is naked as we speak. I hope the 50Ds are kept though and receive at least an enhanced ASPIS suite (albeit relatively old in todays enviroment).





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Mr. Nutuk, apparently you F-16 fleet did not have a single accident in the last 4 years.
Let me make a correction: in a war with Greece you will have 0 (ZERO) F-4 Terminators. You know perfectly well why , I do need to remind you and throw salt on your wounds.
Our obsolete U209 are the same type as the 6 Antilay class. Unlike Antilay class however, half of our old subs have undergone radical modernization and can launch the Harpoon while submerged, so stay away from them!
Papanikolis shaky and torpedoless? Stability problems were solved in 2008, old torpedoes can still do the job. Stay away from the best conventional sub in the planet ! It can stay submerged forever, it does not have to snorkel for weeks, it is as silent as a fish. AIP makes BIG, BIG difference.
For every Milgem that enters service you withdraw 1 old corvette. So 8 corvettes it is.


..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

"Gavur you trolling or serious ? If you are , then wasn't excepting this from you man."

You really think you will beable to use the Terminators?
IlgarD, I have always believed that you are one of the very few serious Turks in this forum. Unfortunately I now see that you are also in denial: Off you go with the rest of the Turks then!

[IMG][/IMG]

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"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

Well , I thought the same about you , but now I see you jumped on the "Israel will save us" bandwagon . Tell you one thing too , we have more freedom on Terminators then other f4's . Believe or not.

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The Terminators are flying as we speak, and they participate in all sorts of NATO exercises or the An. Eagle thingy over there. WTF??!!

Now for the naked planes issue in HAF. This is what was done until 1999/200 for the 50s and 30s: ASPIS I has only RWR and dispenser.. no MAW (Missile Approach Warners) and no repeater jammers installed afaik. Hence by 2012 standards, this is quite naked or blind or whatever you wanna call it. Also the number of RFCMs has been split among the 50Ds and 30s, i.e. it was not enough for all 70ish of them. I have no idea what the May 2012 decision will do for the 52+ fleet, other than political promises (like the BMP-3 purchare or the 1996 installation of the complete ASPIS on the b30s - which infact was delayed for 6 yrs).





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The Evian100:
BGM/EGM have the ICMS-2000, Block-30 and Block-50 have the Aspis I.

You forgot to mention their F-5s. What a big danger they are.................
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If anybody believes that the Turks will be able to use the Terminators in a Greek-Turkish war, he lives in another planet. Why does Tayip try so frantically to get the source codes of F-16s and F-35s? Why does he take the huge technological risk to develop a Turkish mission computer for the T-129 helicopter? Our islands are unsinkable battleships, and the SAMs on them can provide area air defence to the fleet. Besides, the fleet has no better area defence than the Air Force itsself.
I say that NOW the Air Force has the numbers to do whatever he wants. If however Antonakis starts cutting the defence budget further, now that he became an obedient puppy of Frau Merkel, we are in big trouble .


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"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

@Evian

Its good to talk numbers and technology but as you know its not enough. The overal operational effectiveness of every defence organism is too complex to base an argument in just those 2 factors alone.

In the meantime we do have hard proof of their true operational effectiveness in at least 3 different occasions:

1) Their daily fight against PKK

2) Syria

3) Nato exercises and overseas deployments

I am sure that observing the operational realities they face and how effectively they can handle them is the only true way to acquire
a broader picture of their warfighting capabilities.

All I can say is that its off small importance any minor technological advantage they have here and there if they are not able to fully integrate
them along with their different brances warfighting capabilities into a single joint fighting entity!

"BGM/EGM have the ICMS-2000, Block-30 and Block-50 have the Aspis I."
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Yeah, why are you repeating that? I told you about it. That's known, I filled you in on the details. Comment on them or... leave it at that.

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"Its good to talk numbers and technology but as you know its not enough. The overal operational effectiveness of every defence organism is too complex to base an argument in just those 2 factors alone."
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I didn't base it on two factors alone. So that comment of yours is not about my analysis (i agree with the rest of your post, it's by default correct). I only explained to others that -in general- there is no balance anymore.

It's about time to wake up and smell the tzatziki.





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taking in mind the turkish success in turkish kurdistan, turkish army is poorly train and not devoted to fight
turkish say that they train everyday against pkk but what i see pkk clearly own them





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""Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the first to join the Greek liberation movement. The society called the Filiki Eteria ("Company of Friends") sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of Taxiarchs (Archangels) of Areopoli and declared war against the Ottoman Empire. The flag of the revolution was white with a blue cross in the center. On top of the flag there was a sign, "Victory or death". The Maniots were responsible for writing "Victory" and not "Freedom" on their banner since Mani was always free. On the bottom of the flag lied an ancient inscription, "With the shield or on the shield."
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"taking in mind the turkish success in turkish kurdistan, turkish army is poorly train and not devoted to fight
turkish say that they train everyday against pkk but what i see pkk clearly own them "

thats cause you read defencenet too much


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"Turkish say that they train everyday against pkk but what i see pkk clearly own them"
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PKK will always own them, since they have bases in Iraq and now NE Syria (YPG). It's like the Muj in '80s, whereby they got supplies and support from Pakistan. USSR failed and now its seems NATO/USA will also fail... It's always the case when you deal COIN warfare and the insugents have safe-heaven in neighbouring countries.





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PKK will always own them, since they have bases in Iraq and now NE Syria
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Don't be sure about that, we are about to wipe out their Syrian support

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Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)