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Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003 at 10:47 AM

  (Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

 
It was one of those weird occurrences that happen on message boards as a result of thread drift.

Somebody started a thread over on Comicon to rag on Jim Lee, and Erik Larsen joined the fray to speak his mind on the matter. Somewhere along the way, George Perez was mentioned. Now, for me there are two artists whose work I adore more than nearly any other artist: John Byrne and George Perez. I think both men are fantastic artists and I always have! Well, Larsen says he used to enjoy Perez's work, but he "grew up."

Frankly, I couldn't believe the rubbish Larsen was writing. I mean, yeah, I respect his right to his own opinion, but he is trashing Perez and saying that Perez is weak on anatomy, perspective, and other things. --- ERIK LARSEN is saying this!!

I think "Savage Dragon" can be a fun book, and I sometimes get a kick out of his outspoken opinions, but man, do I disagree with him on this matter! Perhaps, I wouldn't be so flabbergasted at his remarks if it wasn't for the fact that George Perez is technically and stylistically superior to Larsen. Hell, early Larsen was riffing Kirby, Byrne, Giffen, and, yes, Perez, and later Larsen is riffing off Kirby, McFarlane, and Lee. At least Perez's influences, while present, aren't worn on his artistic sleeve.

Anyway, I wondered what you guys think. Is Larsen correct in his assessment of Perez, or is he totally off-base?

Here is the lonk/address to the thread on Comicon.:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=005341

 
    
AuthorReply


(Login Morganza)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 10:55 AM 

Are you kidding?

Larsen is a jackobyte, he would be better of off not saying a damn thing for the rest of his life, this has to be a joke.

www.blackpyramidstudios.com

 
 


(Login GreggAllinson)
Byrne Victim

Perez is superb

July 24 2003, 11:00 AM 

Nice guy, outstanding artist- even to this day.

"She's looking at you, so maybe you're looking too. Do you want to be her, or don't you? Of course, you do. But would she be you...?"
-Ladytron- Jet Age

 
 


(Login SimonBowland)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:01 AM 

Erik is, once again, talking through something he should instead be sitting on. George Perez is up there in the same league as JB, in that I'll generally buy any comic George (and John) work on simply because I just know that they're going to be entertaining. Hence why Action Comics 600 was such a delight, because it combined the talents of both creators.

Perhaps Erik is a tad jealous. Certainly, I haven't purchased any of his material for years.

 
 


(Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:05 AM 

I've noticed a trend with Larsen. Even when he defends a friend, like Jim Lee, he seems to take a swipe at that artist.

Simon mentioned that Larsen might be jealous of George Perez. I think that may be right.

After all, Perez is still popular and in demand. Larsen couldn't get people to pick up his Marvel work. And no wonder, as it looked rushed!

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:05 AM 

To paraphrase an old joke, you can tell when Erik is saying something stupid -- his lips move.

 
 

(Login stephenrockwood)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:29 AM 

Ba-Dum-Bum!

 
 

Trevor Giberson
(Login Trevah)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:34 AM 

How is Erik Larsen's art these days? I've only read a few issues of Doom Patrol by him, waaaaaaay back when. The thought of the guy who drew that criticizing Perez's anatomy and calling Perez's work 'ugly' is hiliarious.

 
 
Will Jackson
(Login nitewing63)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:41 AM 

Not only does Larson trash George but he also believes many of the "old guard" to be hacks? Although I may not care for Vince Colletta's style I would have a very hard time calling him a hack. Anatomy lessons from Larson? Superman's legs are out of whack on the Crisis death of Supergirl cover? Well then, show me one, just one figure drawing Larson has done where the legs are "in" whack. Geez...but in Larson's defense everyone is awaitng his JLA/Avengers crossover and he doesn't get kicked off of books or have them cancelled like Perez does. Hey if Larson can twist the facts so can I...bhawhahahahahaha....

 
 

(Login stephenrockwood)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:42 AM 

Every now and then I'll see an advertisement for Savage Dragon in a comic store with Larsen's art on it. It frankly doesn't seem to have shown a marked improvement since his days on Spidey. But I don't read Savage Dragon so I can't say for sure.

 
 


(Login GreggAllinson)
Byrne Victim

My 2 cents on Larsen's artwork

July 24 2003, 11:43 AM 

I have less of a problem with it if he's doing his own characters or characters I'm unfamiliar with. He's not one of my favourite artists by any stretch of the imagination, but I can handle him when he's doing original characters. I hated his Spider-Man.

I was reading Dragon a few years back when he went into the Kirbyverse, and it was still pretty cartoony then. Don't know if it's changed since then.

"She's looking at you, so maybe you're looking too. Do you want to be her, or don't you? Of course, you do. But would she be you...?"
-Ladytron- Jet Age

 
 

Andrew Kneath
(Login AndrewKneath)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:49 AM 

Is it possible he was just joking? No?

Then again from what I've seen of Eric's work its not a surprise he would be jealous of Perez! Heck there probably aren't many artists out there who are not!

 
 


(Login Joe_Martino)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:52 AM 

He should keep his mouth shut and Thank guys like Perez and Byrne. He should be half the artist or writer of the 2. I'm not going to go into it further.

Joe

 
 
Phil
(Login PhilAllen)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 11:58 AM 

Erik Larsen should should learn to draw. He thinks he can cover it up with his Kirby pastiches, but that's just a sham. Hulk with a fin.

 
 
Robb
(Login RobbRogers)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 12:02 PM 

I'd like to see Erik Larsen draw every character in the DC universe in a 2" by 2" panel!

 
 


(Login thomasmoudry)
Byrne Victim

amazing

July 24 2003, 12:06 PM 

It never ceases to amaze me when 'the next generation' criticizes the work of those whose shoulders they stand upon.



Thomas

Check out http://www.larryelmore.com

 
 


(Login BobS620)
Negative Mod

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 12:33 PM 

Any single panel drawn by Perez is infinitely superior to Larsen's entire body of work together.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 1:29 PM 

Larsen suffered the fate common to many of his "generation" -- he got "hot" before he was ready, and froze, fearful of losing his adoring fans. (Not a problem that has ever afflicted me, to the chagrin of many of my adoring fans!).

At a con at Texas A&M University I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man". Now, it is usually inkers who have background men (Keith Williams has on occasion been mine), and their job is to ink the backgrounds, as the name might suggest. This guy, according to his story, drew the backgrounds in Savage Dragon.

The Flash Dance school of comicbook art, apparently.

 
 

(Login robertwhite)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 2:32 PM 

My opinion of the situation is that Larsen has a deep seeded inferiority complex when it comes to JB and Perez. I know that sounds harsh and a bit presumptuous but...

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

It's possible that this whole thing is a hoax.....

July 24 2003, 2:44 PM 

How sure are you that the post criticizing Perez was from Larsen? People pull stunts like this all of the time? I love George's work. Heck, I grew up with it, and have followed him to almost every title that he goes to. Whenever George is on a project, it always warrants at least an 1 issue commitment on my part. Having said that, I also like Erik Larsen. Savage Dragon started out as another Image T and A book, but has evolved into much more than that. I find the book highly entertaining, with twists and turns abound. The artwork has been inconsistent, at times, but this has more to do with Erik's experimenting with different styles, than any lack of talent. Dragon is a consistently fun read, as far as I'm concerned and high on my list of pulled comics. As for his views on peers in the field, I have never seen him insult JB. In fact, he has paid homage to JB in sveral issues of Dragon, and one can see many elments of John's storytelling and art in Erik's work. The industry is in enough trouble without pros taking shots at each other. Promoting comic books, all comic books, is the best way to help the industry because if someone picks up one book, they may soon pick up another. So Byrne, Perez, Larsen and everyone else should encourage people to check each others books out rather than foster emnity. These petty squables, if they even really exist, should stop....


    
This message has been edited by stoter1 on Jul 24, 2003 2:46 PM


 
 
Drew Vin
(Login DrewVin)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 2:53 PM 

Erik HAS said something slightly similar to what he said about George Perez in the thread before--it's in the letters column of one of the SAVAGE DRAGON issues.

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 3:01 PM 

If it in fact was ERik, then I take extreme exception to the statement 1) because in my opinion George is one of the best artists in the industry(maybe the best) and 2) because statements like this are detrimental to the industry as a whole. Creators should encourage, not discourage readers from picking up books.

 
 
Dave Pruitt
(Login davepruitt)
Forum Owner

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 3:04 PM 

No, it's Larsen, and he has slammed Byrne before, online and in his comics. I agree that petty squabbles should not exist, but that's human beings for you. Petty squabbles exist in all fields, and comics are no exception. Far from it.

 
 

(Login BTWilders)
Byrne Victim

Larsen 's slams...

July 24 2003, 3:11 PM 

"As for his views on peers in the field, I have never seen him insult JB."

Me:

He slams JB in the very thread linked here, where he slams Perez. Granted, he does it without naming him (probably only because the poster who he is responding to didn't name him), but it is fairly obvious who he's talking about.

BT

 
 
Mike Daniels
(Login Mike_Daniels)

Lies and hearsay rules?

July 24 2003, 3:42 PM 

JB posted:
"At a con at Texas A&M University I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man". Now, it is usually inkers who have background men (Keith Williams has on occasion been mine), and their job is to ink the backgrounds, as the name might suggest. This guy, according to his story, drew the backgrounds in Savage Dragon.
The Flash Dance school of comicbook art, apparently."

I'm a newbie here, so just to be sure, is it okay to post lies and hearsay about comic pros as if it were fact, or is it only JB who can pull stuff out of his ass without any evidence?

I mean if lying or passing along unsubstantiated hearsay is cool on this board do you have any rules regarding whether the lie has to be adhered to throughout your posts or can it be fairly fluid as JB's "was/is" (which is it? He was or he is?).

If you suspect somone is lying on this board is it okay to call them a liar or do you have some board ettiquette wherby you can establish whether they're lying deliberately or accidentally e.g it could just be the fact that JB's mentality is such that he accepts everything he hears from strangers at cons, about comic pro's, as fact and passes them off as such. Or should one ask JB to backup his claim e.g who told you this, when did they tell you, were they or are they his 'background man' (you don't seem to sure) and why did you believe them?

Mike Daniels

 
 


(Login BobS620)
Negative Mod

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 3:45 PM 

I agree that petty squabbles should not exist, but that's human beings for you.

Ahhh...what do you know, Chevy Lover!!!


 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

Yeah...

July 24 2003, 3:47 PM 

this is gonna get ugly.

Here's a good piece of ground rule advice:unless you work in comics and have first hand knowledge to refute what comic pro's, like JB and others who post, relate anecdotally, you might not wanna bandy about terms like "liar".

RT

 
 

Mike Ghekiere
(Login MikeGhekiere)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 3:49 PM 

Thank God you're here, Mike Daniels. Otherwise JB would be free to just spew forth his noxious fumes of non-truths.

So, do you remember exactly what they guy said to JB? Tell us what he "actually" said, so we can call JB on this line of crap.

I'm assuming, of course, that you were there. Otherwise, you would look like quite the chump for what you typed above.

I anxiously await the "truth".

And again, thank you for just being here.

Mike

 
 
Miguel O Mora
(Login MiguelOMora)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:01 PM 

<<I'm a newbie here, so just to be sure, is it okay to post lies and hearsay about comic pros as if it were fact, or is it only JB who can pull stuff out of his ass without any evidence?

<snip>
Mike Daniels>>

Is this how internet martyrs get started?

Waiting for the inevitable crash and burn ...

 
 


(Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:03 PM 

For the poster who ask: Yes, it really is the creator of Savage Dragon, Erik Larsen, posting on Comicon.

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:09 PM 

Mike Ghekiere posted:
"
Thank God you're here, Mike Daniels. Otherwise JB would be free to just spew forth his noxious fumes of non-truths.
So, do you remember exactly what they guy said to JB? Tell us what he "actually" said, so we can call JB on this line of crap.
I'm assuming, of course, that you were there. Otherwise, you would look like quite the chump for what you typed above.
I anxiously await the "truth".
And again, thank you for just being here.
Mike"


Well you know what happens when you assume Mike.
Why to I need to have been there, to not look like a chump? I met a guy at a con in Texas and he 'actually' said he was JB's 'therapist' and he said that JB was a compulsive liar with inadequacy issues. Surely that's proof enough? I wouldn't want to look like a 'chump'.

Mike Daniels

 
 


(Login SimonBowland)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:14 PM 

Well you know what happens when you assume Mike.
Why to I need to have been there, to not look like a chump? I met a guy at a con in Texas and he 'actually' said he was JB's 'therapist' and he said that JB was a compulsive liar with inadequacy issues. Surely that's proof enough? I wouldn't want to look like a 'chump'.


Hmm, bit late for that. Is all this really necessary? Can't you kids play nice...?

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:18 PM 

Simon Bowland posted:
"Hmm, bit late for that. Is all this really necessary? Can't you kids play nice...?"
I'm just playing by JB's standards isn't that nice enough?

Mike Daniels

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

Heyy!!

July 24 2003, 4:22 PM 

Looooook! Mike Daniels has decided to repost JB's post here to comicon! How interesting and of course, innocent.

And wait, the guy who posts here as Ari sent JB's same post to Larsen at Larsen's site!! Of course, again, not in the interest of stirring up shit.


Ooohhhhhh Ahhhhhhhh. 2 new guys to disregard. Excellent.


RT

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

calm down everyone...

July 24 2003, 4:23 PM 

"For the poster who ask: Yes, it really is the creator of Savage Dragon, Erik Larsen, posting on Comicon."

How exactly do you know this? Someone came into a message board the other day claiming to be larsen and said that Savage Dragon was cancelled, and the whole thing turned out to be B.S. I do not know Erik, but he seems to place such reverence on the work of Kirby and Ditko, that I can't imagine he would trash Perez or Byrne, who are legends in their own rights in the industry. As for the story relayed by JB, I can only say that I find it troubling because Erik does not have an inker on Savage Dragon. He inks the issues himself, as well as draws them, and as of last issue, colors as well. So I can't see how and inker can claim to have drawn his SD backgrounds, when Erik doesn't have anyone inking his work.

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

Look here Robin...

July 24 2003, 4:28 PM 

I frequent lots of boards, so what's yur point. I like Larsen's work, and I like JB's work, so naturally, I come to both boards becasue these creators take the time to respond to our comics. When I read the comments that Larsen made about George(See I actually read, unlike you, who apparently did not read my post to the Dragon MB), I posted a message asking larsen if he said thos comments, or not. If he said them or not. I'm not trying to stir up anything, but I do want to know what was actually said. I love George;s work. He is probably my favorite artist, even above JB(sorry JB). I thought the comments attributed to Larsen were way off base. They came across as petty, and I wanted an explanation from Erik. I'm not interested in martydom or attention, but I dowant knowledge, which is after all, wny I'm here. I also suggested to Erik on his site, that this squabbling, if it happned, is counter-productive. You my friend are just trying to stir up JB, or engatiate yourself to him or both, to whcih I can only say one thing, FEH!! Oh, and by the way, I'm not new to this board. I've been here for a long time and have posted on many topics. In fact, I also frequented JB's old message board. Kindly do your homework please, and a double FEH!! to you.../.


    
This message has been edited by stoter1 on Jul 24, 2003 4:30 PM


 
 


(Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

OH GOOD LORD!!!

July 24 2003, 4:32 PM 

I saw that someone posted about my thread on Larsen's board, which is fair enough. BUT... They wrote that I said Larsen was calling George Perez a "hack" and a "has-been"! Why do people seek to embellish and distort what is written or said?

 
 


(Login SimonBowland)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:33 PM 

So I can't see how and inker can claim to have drawn his SD backgrounds, when Erik doesn't have anyone inking his work.

Don't be so sure. I'm not getting into who's right and who's wrong, but remember when Mike Deodato JR was illustrating Wonder Woman right before JB took over the book? Well, Deodato was using people in his studio to ink backgrounds, fill in the blacks, stuff like that... and in many cases, this went uncredited.

And John didn't claim that an inker was producing the backgrounds... he stated that a "background man" was handling the backgrounds.

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

So, Ari old chum-

July 24 2003, 4:37 PM 

-this wasn't posted by you?

http://www.savagedragon.com/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=51400

And given that your question was "why attack George (Perez)" why exactly did JB's exact quote get cut and paste into your post, if it had nothing to do with JB?

RT

 
 

(Login davepruitt)
Forum Owner

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 4:50 PM 

Oh goodie, now it's cross-polinated at Erik's board. Yipee!

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

Robin, you are missing the point?

July 24 2003, 4:54 PM 

I have specifically stated that I posted on Erik's site. Damn straight. I wanted to know whether and why he would make statement about George that I think are not only wrong but hurtful. I posted the JB quote because it made specific reference to Larsen and I wanted ERik's opinion on it. Contrast that with this whole topic thread, which in my opinion, makes no sense being on JB's borard to begin with. Why post a comment about what Erik Lasen said about another creator on JB's website? If Erik had said something about JB, then I could understand posting here. I do not understand, nor was I aware that there was any bad blood between JB and Erik, so naturally, when I heard about this, I asked Erik about it. You seem determined to engratiate yourself to JB at my expense by painting an inaccurate picture of me and my motives. I read something on JB's board whcih had nothing to do with JB, and everything to do with another creator who I happen to like, so I asked that creator about it. Chill out man. I have no interest in ngaging in a flame war with you. Like it or no, I'm a JB fan. I've followed his work for years, and continue to folow it in G3(last issue which focused on Supes was a rare treat), so don;t try to paint me in a corner as a troll.

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

Gee Wiz!

July 24 2003, 5:01 PM 

I'm sorry that I ever asked Erik about the comments. Now I'm getting slammed on two boards. (Not asking for sympathy by the way cause I did post, and it comes with the territory)

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

Ummm Ari?

July 24 2003, 5:05 PM 

Martyr much?

Here's a good way for this not to have happened. When you asked Larsen about his opinion on George Perez, something JB did not SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS, you need not have included JB's quote which by in large HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION other than it being in the same thread.

Or you could have asked Larsen "is this quote by JB true?"

Either way, it is you old buddy, that has missed the point, not once but twice.

So cry me no rivers.

RT

 
 
Dave
(Login davidrake)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:14 PM 

so, did jb lie to us, or was he fooled by some wacko?

 
 

Danton
(Login DBLopes)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:17 PM 

"My point is simply this: Unless your intent is to start up trouble, get your facts straight and don't mislead people if you want a discussion. What you posted was misleading and bears no resemblance to the actual comments that were made. Period. And that's all."

We need no trouble makers 'round here - and seems like nor on Larsen's board.

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

Or....

July 24 2003, 5:19 PM 

Shock and horror-JB was telling the truth and Larsen doesn't want to impune his credibility by fessing up to it?

I confess I am a bit taken a back by the twice mentioned condemnation of JB as a liar ON HIS OWN FAN BOARD, whereas Larsen's words are being taken as gospel.

Makes me wonder if people have the wrong url or are just rude.

And stupid.

But mostly rude.

RT

 
 

Charles
(Login Charlesknight)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:21 PM 

Oh look we seem to have loads of new posters, isn't that nice.

 
 
Dave
(Login davidrake)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:22 PM 

maybe i missed it, but jb hasn't responded to larsen's side of the story. this means to me that either he made it up and is feeling sheepish, or he was fooled and is feeling sheepish.

 
 


(Login Charlesknight)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:24 PM 

Or maybe:

This isn't a realtime medium and JB likes to get his books out on time so is actually doing some work or something.

You may be shocked to hear this but JB does not actually sit at a station all day waiting for our questions.

Shocking but true!


 
 


(Login GreggAllinson)
Byrne Victim

That Lying Byrne

July 24 2003, 5:24 PM 

"I'm a newbie here, so just to be sure, is it okay to post lies and hearsay about comic pros as if it were fact, or is it only JB who can pull stuff out of his ass without any evidence?"

Well, I've disagreed with JB before, and there's at least a few of his projects I don't care for at all, but I've never known him to lie- either in a post I've seen here or at the old Magnus board or in interviews or features on the net or in magazines. So, I'm afraid, it's never quite struck me that I should ask him for evidence to back up each and every one of his statements. If I've never known the guy to lie, and he has no visible reason to lie, I tend to think he's telling the truth. Occam's razor.

"She's looking at you, so maybe you're looking too. Do you want to be her, or don't you? Of course, you do. But would she be you...?"
-Ladytron- Jet Age

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

I expect you don't know anything-

July 24 2003, 5:25 PM 

-so JB posts here at regular times because he, you know, works for a living. So I doubt he has even seen this board since around lunch time.

Seeking instant gratification much?

BTW, did you ever learn not to make an assumption because it makes an ass out of you.

And "umption".


RT

 
 
Miguel O Mora
(Login MiguelOMora)

Huh?

July 24 2003, 5:38 PM 

Larsen (on Savage Dragon board) : <<I think it also pisses him (JB) off that I've stuck with my creator-owned project and done in excess of 100 issues while he hasn''t been able to stick on anything for more than a handful of issues in years.>>

36 issues of Wonder Woman is only a handful?


 
 

(Login davidrake)

robin, others

July 24 2003, 5:44 PM 

i don't think i'm assuming anything except that larsen is telling the truth. maybe that warrants calling me an "ass," i don't know. but, taking that assumption...

if you reread my posts, i'm not assuming that jb is a liar. i'm trying to examine possible explanations for inconsistent stories from two of comics best creators.

the only possibilities i can see are:
1) jb is lying (unikely)
2) jb was fooled

any others?

 
 
Vincent Valenti
(Login vvalenti)

Sticking with a creator-owned title

July 24 2003, 5:48 PM 

I get annoyed whenever I read Larsen claim he's much more dedicated than JB on creator-owned work since he's been on Savage Dragon for over 100 issues. As part owner of his punblisher, he can get away with a lot more than JB in terms of marketing and profit margins. So that's not really a fair comparison to me.

And besides, JB seems to like working on established characters more than Larsen does anyway. That doesn't make JB a bad person as a result. Again, it's just apples and oranges.

vv

 
 


(Login Charlesknight)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:49 PM 

3) Erik is lying?

Anyway now we know how you feel, thanks for stopping by.

 
 

(Login Rtaylor01)
Byrne Victim

Ummm Dave-

July 24 2003, 5:51 PM 

"the only possibilities i can see are:
1) jb is lying (unikely)
2) jb was fooled"

3) Larsen is lying?


Again wondering why you would come to a creator's fan board assuming the creator is either a liar or easily lead.

I expect somewhere between JB's post and Larsen's post is the truth, but to definitely state without hesitation that either one is a liar is foolish, unless you were there.

Were you?

RT


 
 

(Login davidrake)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 5:55 PM 

sure larsen could be lying, but as some one else pointed out- he goes out of his way to give credit to everyone who has a hand in Savage Dragon. why would he leave this guy out?

i don't think either is lying.

it's strange that no one will entertain the possibility that jb made a mistake and believed the wrong person.

I'm a big fan of Byrne's work, especially Generations and Man of Steel, but that doesn't mean he's perfect. it also doesn't mean that I can't like larsen, peter david, mark waid, or any other creator i see bad-mouthed here.

[edited for spelling]


    
This message has been edited by davidrake on Jul 24, 2003 5:57 PM


 
 


(Login Charlesknight)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 6:00 PM 

Edited - misread last post.


    
This message has been edited by Charlesknight on Jul 24, 2003 6:02 PM


 
 

(Login davepruitt)
Forum Owner

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 6:07 PM 

Maybe Eric's assistant padded his job description a bit, when speaking to JB. Does it make that much difference anyway? Either way, Larsen's art is mediocre compared to George's, so he shouldn't run his mouth. I'm waiting for the rest of Eric's fellow pros to speak up about how they don't respect GP's art skills, but I won't hold my breath.

 
 


(Login SimonBowland)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 6:13 PM 

I'm waiting for the rest of Eric's fellow pros to speak up about how they don't respect GP's art skills, but I won't hold my breath.

Wonder how many fellow pros will be telling everyone how much they respect Erik's art skills? And I find it amusing that he refers to John having to "abandon" creator-owned projects because of poor sales. By Erik's own admission, he took on work from Marvel recently because he needed the money to keep Savage Dragon going.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 6:45 PM 

So much pointless thrashing about. Now, for clarity, which part of this:

"At a con at Texas A&M University I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man". Now, it is usually inkers who have background men (Keith Williams has on occasion been mine), and their job is to ink the backgrounds, as the name might suggest. This guy, according to his story, drew the backgrounds in Savage Dragon. "

. . . would constitute a "lie" on my part?

Last time I looked, a lie was the deliberate statement of a falsehood. None of the above is false.

 
 

(Login Johnny_Redbeard)

Mr. Byrne, in reference to this quote:

July 24 2003, 7:12 PM 

"So much pointless thrashing about. Now, for clarity, which part of this:

"At a con at Texas A&M University I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man". Now, it is usually inkers who have background men (Keith Williams has on occasion been mine), and their job is to ink the backgrounds, as the name might suggest. This guy, according to his story, drew the backgrounds in Savage Dragon. "

. . . would constitute a "lie" on my part?

Last time I looked, a lie was the deliberate statement of a falsehood. None of the above is false."

Please be more clear. What particularly is true about your above statement? Do you know for certain that your informant was telling you the truth, or is it merely true that somebody told you that he was Larsen's secret background man?

If it's the latter, I'll understand if you do not reply to this post.


    
This message has been edited by Johnny_Redbeard on Jul 24, 2003 7:13 PM


 
 


(Login Trevah)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 7:17 PM 

If it's either one, he'll probably ignore it until you repost under your real name (see the main page).

BTW, the key point is "according to this guy's story."

 
 


(Login Charlesknight)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 7:18 PM 

Well what seems to be true is that somebody told John something and "ACCORDING" to his story Eric etc etc etc.

I see no falsehood in that statement, I can however spot an arsehole from about fifty miles away.


 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Addendum

July 24 2003, 7:33 PM 

The fellow in question -- and I surely do wish I could remember his name -- was a fellow guest at the con. He was there, in fact, on the strength of his stated job, and had xeroxes of the work he had done.

A rather elaborate hoax, one would think.

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

Clarity?

July 24 2003, 7:58 PM 

JB posted:
So much pointless thrashing about. Now, for clarity, which part of this:
"At a con at Texas A&M University I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man". Now, it is usually inkers who have background men (Keith Williams has on occasion been mine), and their job is to ink the backgrounds, as the name might suggest. This guy, according to his story, drew the backgrounds in Savage Dragon. "
. . . would constitute a "lie" on my part?

Last time I looked, a lie was the deliberate statement of a falsehood. None of the above is false.


Well for my part, (like most of the posters who take exception to your claim) I've written in every post regrding your statement that you were either lying OR spreading rumours/hearsay as fact (there's a difference), but if you just want to focus on one part you believe you can rebutt that's fine.

The part where you wrote "I met the guy who was/is Larsen's "background man" is a lie JB.

The last time I looked you had the capacity as a writer to realise that what you wrote was a statement of fact. You decided not to write 'I met the guy who said he was/is etc.' or I met the guy who apparently was/is etc. etc.' You chose not to exercise any proviso and in doing so conveyed the 'fact' rather than impression that Larsen had/has a "background man".

He doesn't or that is to say Larsen says he doesn't.

Who do we believe? Larsen who has allways given credit to all his co-contributers to the book far beyond the pale, or the person who made the claim, whose disdain for Larsen is well documented and whose evidence is 'some guy they met at a con'.

I've been a lurker at this board and it's prior incarnation for quite a while JB, long enough to see the contempt in which you hold those posters who proffer stuff they heard from some guy as fact.

Yet you deliberately presented as fact that Larsen had an uncredited and unacknowledged 'background man' as fact.

You were a little more circumspect in your next 2 lines however when implying that unlike your own "background man" whose normal duties involved inking in backgrounds, Larsen's was possibly pencilling them as well. You were carefull to write that this was "according to his story," ergo this part was just hearsay, further giving credence to your statement that Larsen definitively had/has a "background man" was a fact.

2 things are absoloutley certain in your post JB, Larsen had/has a "background man" and you met him. Was this affectation deliberate or an accidentalon your part JB? I don't think you're so stupid as to unwittingly imply something acidentally. You're aware of the power of the written word. Maybe you personally believed this chap, but it could be he was lying? Well why would you believe him? and why wouldn't you make that distinction clear in your post?

You state catagorically that you met Larsen's "Background man", prove it or retract it.

I'll happily respond to your remarks regarding my 'lies' about you abandoning your Legend projects when you respond to mine.

Rod Odom posted:
..stop wasting your time defending Larsen. He and his cohorts had nearly a decade to remake the industry in their Image and look at the shite its turned out to be.
Um...I don't blame Byrne for every bad decision his 'cohorts' at Marvel or DC made, so what exactly did Larsen himself do to screw up the industry?

What Byrne did to Larsen was fair. If Larsen slings mud at the work of one of the old guard, in this case Perez, then he should expect the same back.
So if Byrne slings mud at folks he should expect some back? The difference is that Larsen is quantifying all his remarks and using examples to support and convey his own opinion. JB stating that he met Larsen's "background man" is not an opinion.

Robin posted:
Yeah... July 24 2003, 6:25 PM 
so you don't deny you posted to Comicon insults regarding JB and then you try to come back here and blame someone else for how you are received? All the while expounding of how much a fan you are despite your own words to the contrary.

I have absoloutley no idea what your point is here Robin. Any chance you could post somthing relevant to this thread?

Man I am getting this crazy deja vu.
You and me both. In pretty much everyone of your posts here, you've desperately attempted to avoid discussing the message and concentrated on the messenger instead. Do you have anything worthwhile to add to the discussion or are you just going to continue castigating the posters whoose posts you don't like?

Will Jackson posted:
It appears to me that Mike Daniels may have gotten into too much of his brother Jack's hooch.
(a)LOL (b) see above (c)and your insights are as mature and worthwhile as your brother Michael's.

Mike Daniels

 
 


(Login brihunt)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 8:00 PM 

Was it Larsen's do it all intern Josh Eichorn(sp)?

-Brian Hunt

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

To solve a mystery

July 24 2003, 9:08 PM 

Brian Hunt posted:

Was it Larsen's do it all intern Josh Eichorn(sp)?


Despite the fact that JB can't unfortunately remember the chap's name, there's a real easy way to find out.
According to JB he was there as a guest of the con, on the strength of his stated work, which he carried around as xeroxes.

What Con was it and when was it. As a guest he'd be in the programme or guest-list or at the very least registered with the organisers.

It could be that some of JB's or Larsen's pals (heck maybe even some of PADS pals) were also at the con and could shed some light on this "background man". Any of Larsen's pals or fans who attended would definitely have been interested in him.

I'm surprised that none of Larsen's fans or detractors who were at the show, never brought up this "background man" before, maybe none attended. So if the guy wasn't listed as 'The Savage Dragon's Background Man' what was he listed as?

JB would be well aware as to how fans can bullshit at these cons claiming to be friends of such and such (there's the oft told tale of a fan claiming to tell Jo Duffy at a con how much they hated HIS work). To stand up to the experienced scrutiny of a pro such as JB, so much so that he could be reporting the dellusional rantings of a fan as fact, it must have been an elaborate ruse indeed.

And other pro's apart from JB must have been subjected to it, although why they chose not to querey Larsen about it when faced with compelling xeroxes of actual backgrounds from the comic without any characters or lettering is a mystery.

Mike Daniels

 
 
Will Jackson
(Login nitewing63)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 9:20 PM 

Just a question for Mike Daniels..was the moniker "Name Withheld" already taken on this board?

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 9:33 PM 

Will Jackson posted:
a hillariously irrelevant and banal oldie but goodie
LOL! That gags as old as JB's faithful 40!
Message Will, try and respond to the message!

Mike Daniels

 
 

Rod Odom
(Login RodOdom)
Byrne Victim

Mike Daniels

July 24 2003, 9:34 PM 

Mike:" The difference is that Larsen is quantifying all his remarks and using examples to support and convey his own opinion. JB stating that he met Larsen's "background man" is not an opinion."


Me: "Quantifying" means using numbers to describe. But I understand you mean something like "explaining in full".

So Larsen slings mud in a "quantified" way and Byrne slings in a "non-quantified" way. Mud is mud, dum dum.





 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 9:46 PM 

"Byrne slings in a "non-quantified" way."

No mud slung, "quantified" or otherwise.

 
 
Will Jackson
(Login nitewing63)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 9:58 PM 

"Message Will, try and respond to the message!"

So the Reverand Mike does indeed admit to pontificating a message for the unholy and unwashed huh? Well I tell ya what...pack up the soapbox and give my regards to Swaggart and Baker.

 
 


(Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 24 2003, 10:19 PM 

Let me see...

Hmmm...

Who do I believe...

Hmmm...

A man like JB, who is a man that is not afraid to stand by his own words, no matter how they are viewed by others.

Or:

A man who uses the title "Name Withheld" or whatever the fake name was to blast at others in his line of work in anonymity?

I think I might be inclined to lean towards JB.

 
 
ari
(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

my thoughts

July 25 2003, 8:35 AM 

I don't think it's a question of believability as much as accountability. I believe JB when he says that someone told him that story, and I believe Erik when he says that the story is untrue. I don't believe that the story should have been relayed because of the nature of the allegations absent knowledge on JB's part that the story was true. I think(but am willing to concede that I may be wrong) that JB would probably not have recounted this tale of he was not pissed about Erik's statements as to George Perez. I think that JB's response was a knee jerk response because JB holds George's work in such high regard. JB is human too, and I think he was reacting like many fans of George would because of Erik's crticisam of Georg.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

No, those would be my thoughts. . . not.

July 25 2003, 8:38 AM 

"I think(but am willing to concede that I may be wrong) that JB would probably not have recounted this tale of he was not pissed about Erik's statements as to George Perez. I think that JB's response was a knee jerk response because JB holds George's work in such high regard. JB is human too, and I think he was reacting like many fans of George would because of Erik's crticisam of Georg. "


Is there some site on the web that offers a course in internet mindreading? Cuz everyone who's taken it should get their money back.

 
 


(Login Trevah)
Byrne Victim

My Thoughts

July 25 2003, 8:46 AM 

88 posts abour Erik Larsen is too much for ANY board....

 
 

(Login stoter1)
Byrne Victim

er no John, those are my thoughts about what I believe you were thinking

July 25 2003, 8:50 AM 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. You have your side, Erik has his, but the story carries serious implications because Erik prides himslef about crediting people's work and bills Dragon as work written and drawn exclusively by Erik Larsen. Your story, especially given people's propensity to take as truth all stories on the net, should, in my opinion, not have been recounted unless verified, but this is your site, your domain and ultimately the decision was yours. I have never known you to be anything but truthful, so I am having trouble with this story....

 
 


(Login Trevah)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 8:53 AM 

It's Dave's site. JB is "first among equals."

 
 

(Login davepruitt)
Forum Owner

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 9:43 AM 

I've checked in with the Comicon board as a result of all this, and made a post or two. One thing I don't like is that anyone can edit their own posts, and no one would know. There's no notation that alerts that the post was edited.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 9:51 AM 

With "Name Withheld" and "Johnny Redbeard" and all the other nonsense, that seems right in line, doesn't it?

 
 

Rich Abreu
(Login close2theedge)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 3:51 PM 

Wow, I've gone for one day and all this fun has been going on. I find it funny that while skimming through this thread that someone is calling Mr. Byrne a liar because of a story that someone told him at a show. If the story told to him is false that does not make him the liar since he wasn't the one who told it. I once ran into a derelict who said he met Ben Franklin, does that make me a liar because the guy couldn't have met Ben Franklin? I mean I truthfull did meet a derelict that said that so I'm not the liar.

And as for Erik Larsen's statements that spawned all this, regardless if you are a fan or not he is a major unprofessional, disrespectful asshole. I mean I enjoy some of his work but A.) George Perez is better and B.) even if George Perez wasn't better he should still keep your mouth shut because he is a fellow professional and someone who paved the way for him. Erik Larsen obviously has a bad case of little man syndrome and suffers from delusions of grandeur, and he can only express it by bashing everyone around him. Shit like this will leaves a bad taste in my mouth and takes an artist who was average at best and knocks him down to "unbuyable" because of his attitude alone. Then again, I haven't bought a comic by him in years anyway.

 
 

Anonymous
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 4:05 PM 

"Wow, I've gone for one day and all this fun has been going on. I find it funny that while skimming through this thread that someone is calling Mr. Byrne a liar because of a story that someone told him at a show. If the story told to him is false that does not make him the liar since he wasn't the one who told it. I once ran into a derelict who said he met Ben Franklin, does that make me a liar because the guy couldn't have met Ben Franklin? I mean I truthfull did meet a derelict that said that so I'm not the liar."


This is one of "Frank Cooper's" old tricks -- calling someone a liar if they state an untruth, even if they do not know it to be an untruth.

In this case, I neither know what I have said to be untrue, nor have any reason for believing it to be so.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

It Just Keeps Getting Funnier

July 25 2003, 8:39 PM 

Now I have received an email from one of the drones at Image Comics castigating me for "attacking" Erik Larsen, noting that it is "well known" that I "hate" Larsen's work, and admonishing me not to listen to and/or repeat what "fans" tell me at cons.

Doesn't sound a whole lot like anybody bothered to check my original post, does it?

I am also informed that Larsen "doesn't lose any sleep" over what I think of his work. Probably not. He's too busy dreaming up whatever drivel he plans to spew forth next about my work. (How many wheels are there on Prof. Xavier's chair?) If my comments at the top of this thread constitute an "attack", I have been subjected to all out war from Larsen and his stooges for years.

All together now:

FEH !!!

 
 

(Login ErikJLarsen)

What the heck?

July 25 2003, 9:09 PM 

John-

What is this nonsense?

Somebody claimed that George Perez was a better artist than Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko and I said otherwise. So what? Even George wouldn't claim such a ridiculous thing! Why is this a big deal?

John--would YOU say that George Perez is a better artist than Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko? Why would you?

As far as your claim about meeting my background guy goes--poppycock. Never had one--never will. Either you're stupid enough to be fooled by some delusional fan or you're lying. Which is it--you a liar or a fool?

IF we're going to take you at your word--when was this con? Where was it? What did this guy LOOK LIKE? Was he tall? Short? Skinny? Fat? Black? White? Asian? If he was an attending pro (as you claim) who ELSE saw this guy? Why can nobody corroborate your assertion? Who ELSE was at the convention? Who ELSE saw this fictitious background guy? Who ELSE saw his alleged "work?" Who can come up with his name? Where does this artist live? Where did he live when he was supposed to have been working with me? Where do I live? Where did he draw these pages? What issues did he work on? How was he paid? Can he show copies of checks? Original art? Tax information? Who organized the show? Who might have access to the information?

John--I realize that you're a habitual liar--that you'll NEVER back down--EVER. I've caught you on things before and you never give in despite overwhelming evidence--I realize that you have no love for anything (or anybody) Image but this is simply unfair. To make accusations like this is outrageous.

I mean--if I said that I saw you beating his wife or getting your willie sucked by a pimple-riddled fanboy in the men's room you'd ask for actual evidence to support my claim (and, you may even deny it as well). You have as much as accused ME of employing an uncredited background artist (which is, frankly, ridiculous--why would anybody PAY to have somebody draw cars so poorly?) the very LEAST you can do is back up your claims--otherwise, you appear to be lying--to be making unsubstantiated assertions. If what you say is fact--what do you stand to lose by NOT providing any details that might corroborate your story?

Apparently, you've been taking tips from Rush Limbaugh--lie through your teeth--don't back up your assertions with any facts, information, testimony, confirmation, documentation or proof and never back down even when faced with overwhelming evidence that contradicts what you've stated.

I'm on trial here--accused of a crime that I didn't commit. You're the prosecuting attorney. Prove your case.

And if you can't--isn't it as fair for me to inform people about the actions of a certain pimple-riddled fanboy? I have every bit as much evidence to back up my claim as you do to back up yours, after all.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

See My Other Thread

July 25 2003, 9:14 PM 

nt

 
 


(Login Denmaster)
Byrne Victim

You're kidding, right?

July 25 2003, 10:48 PM 

Someone please tell me that Mr. Larsen did not just spew the filth above, because if it was him, I'd like to kick his ass for being a class A jerk.

Thanks JB for sticking to the high road.

And Erik, or whoever is posting under his name, if you would be so kind as to read what JB wrote maybe, just maybe, you could grasp the ever elusive clue.

 
 


(Login DarinWagner)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 10:57 PM 

I wish he hadn't brought Rush Limbaugh into this.

Darin Wagner,
A Fan of the Work of John Byrne

 
 

Rich Abreu
(Login close2theedge)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 25 2003, 11:16 PM 

WOW

Truth to tell, I heard and read stories about this guy being an out of control loose cannon. That just cements it, as well as the two-faced diatribe he unleashed on poor Perez who is in every sense a superior artist and professional. Ripping his work to shreds with the petty "deformed Superman leg" comment to that Crisis cover while all the while calling him "a great guy".

The guy is really out of line and obviously has a screw loose.

 
 

Rod Odom
(Login RodOdom)
Byrne Victim

Hey Larsen

July 25 2003, 11:20 PM 

Claiming that an artist used an assistant in his work is hearsay. Whether true or false, it is not necessarily a negative allegation. It's simply an accepted industry practice (I assume).

Claiming that a person engaged in gay sex in a public place, if untrue, is defamataion. As in "get your ill-informed ass sued" kind of defamation.




 
 

(Login AlienRay)
Byrne Victim

Yikes.

July 25 2003, 11:54 PM 

Someone, please tell me that wasn't the real Erik Larsen. I've had very little exposure to the guy's work, and no knowledge of his personality, but I would hate to think that anyone who is allowed to write funny books for a living could be full of that much bile.

It would genuinely sadden me to think that ANY comics professional would post that kind of juvenile, petty nonsense on a colleague's fan site.

 
 

(Login Mike_Daniels)

Speaking of "get your ill-informed ass sued" kind of defamation

July 25 2003, 11:56 PM 

Rod Odom wrote:
Claiming that an artist used an assistant in his work is hearsay. Whether true or false, it is not necessarily a negative allegation. It's simply an accepted industry practice (I assume).
Claiming that a person engaged in gay sex in a public place, if untrue, is defamataion. As in "get your ill-informed ass sued" kind of defamation.


Didn't JB once label a poster who admitted downloading 'pirate' movies a Rapist? How do you feel about that Rod?

Ill-informed get your ass-sued kind of defamation or a fair use of an extreme example to prove a point?

Mike Daniels

 
 

Rich Abreu
(Login close2theedge)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 12:36 AM 

Called someone a rapist or used it as a metaphor for a crime? There is a difference.


    
This message has been edited by close2theedge on Jul 26, 2003 12:37 AM


 
 

(Login davepruitt)
Forum Owner

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 1:13 AM 

Yeah it was Larsen, and I don't care for the analogy either. I also don't like analogies that involve myself and violating poultry. Mr Larsen and Mr Daniels can spew what they will at other boards. They've had their say here.

 
 


(Login jrpipik)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 1:17 AM 

The gist of the earlier tiff was: somebody admitted that illegal downloads were theft but justified it by saying he liked movies. JB took it to the logical extreme by noting that using that principle you could justify rape by saying you liked sex.

It's a pretty acceptable way to debate: you apply a principle used to something that may be contraversial (illegal downloads) to something that everyone agrees is wrong (rape). If you agree the latter is wrong, logically you'd have to say the former is, too.

 
 


(Login MattHawes)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 2:57 AM 

Erik Larsen: "What is this nonsense?

Somebody claimed that George Perez was a better artist than Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko and I said otherwise. So what? Even George wouldn't claim such a ridiculous thing! Why is this a big deal?"

Now waiiiiiiiiiiit a minute!

There was more to what you posted than that, Erik!

You didn't just say you didn't care for George Perez's art. You didn't just tell that other poster that it was silly to say that Perez was better than Ditko and Kirby! You tore into Perez's work! You savaged the man's art! At least own up to that, as that is the only reason I had any problem with what you had posted on Comicon.

Here is some of what Erik Larsen had to write about George Perez's work:

-----

Erik Larsen:
"George will often add lines just for the sake of adding lines. His women are dumpy and unattractive and his pages are cluttered and tough to read."

"I can SEE why people like Perez--I was a big fan when I was a kid--but I grew up. George is so obsessed with putting EVERYTHING into his work that it just gets ugly."

"The more you know, the less there is to like about Perez's work--and that's not to say George is a bad guy--he's terrific! And that's not to say George isn't putting every effort into making every panel as spectacular as it can be--George, perhaps more than anybody I know, REALLY goes above and beyond to please his fans and he doesn't hack--and he doesn't take shortcuts-- but honestly--I wish he WOULD! I wish he's stop working on that page BEFORE he made everybody's skin look leathery and over-rendered--I wish he's move on BEFORE he defined every TOOTH on the Scarlet Witch. I liked his stuff better BEFORE he decided everybody needed a distinctive and unique face--many of them ugly and odd looking."

"The reason George isn't universally adored is because he has faults and that his peers, that are often educated enough in regard to anatomy and construction, can SEE his weaknesses."

"You confuse detail with realism but look outside--real people don't have a million lines defining their teeth. You're being baffled by his bullshit--and that's fine--you can love the fact that when a vase is shattered in a Perez comic that the amount of pieces it flies into could be used to make 30 vases--but don't tell me that's realistic--I know better! George's grasp of anatomy is tenuous, his women tend to have long torsos, saggy asses and fat thighs and I just don't find his shorthand anatomy as appealing or realistic as other artists' shorthand anatomy."

"It's hideous (George Perez's art). Really--just because you like it--doesn't make it true. Look at Brian Hitch's work--THAT more closely approximates reality--shadows on faces fall where they belong--faces ARE different from each other but he's not just giving Thor a deformed nose and chubby cheeks like Perez does--he's giving him a different, but still handsome, face.You've been sucked into Perez's world--and that's terrific. George is a great guy that goes all out to give his fans it all. He puts a lot of energy and effort into his pages--but that doesn't mean he can really DRAW better than anybody else. Jose Luis Garcia Lopez followed him on the Teen Titans and kicked his ass. THERE is a guy who knows his shit--he knows anatomy, perspective and storytelling. His city isn't a sea of boxes with no streets but an actual city that looks and feels like a city!"

"Folks that don't have a strong working knowledge of perspective, anatomy and whatnot are often taken in by the work of Perez or Todd McFarlane and think that those artists draw "realistic" when, in reality, they just put in a lot more lines per square inch than the average guy."

"Perez, on the other hand--is adored by fans but industry professionals aren't quite as taken with his work. Sure--they'll hire him--he sells books! But it's not as though pros look at his work in awe--they just don't."

-----

"Hideous," "Ugly," and "odd-looking."

Hmmm...

Erik Larsen: "Somebody claimed that George Perez was a better artist than Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko and I said otherwise."

You said a lot more than that. And it wasn't very cool.



 
 
Will Jackson
(Login nitewing63)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 3:06 AM 

"You have as much as accused ME of employing an uncredited background artist (which is, frankly, ridiculous--why would anybody PAY to have somebody draw cars so poorly?)"


No wonder Larson is pissed...apparently he's spent his entire career not getting paid.

 
 

Rich Abreu
(Login close2theedge)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 10:10 AM 

That is what set off most people, even on the other board, was how unprofessionally he ripped into a fellow professional. The line that got me was "George's grasp of anatomy is tenuous", considering the source that is laughable. The guy is really pompous and arrogant and has serious issues, he has a screw loose.

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 10:18 AM 

Erik thinks he is Todd McFarlane, but he lacks the wits to pull it off. (Think about that !)

Repeatedly I have seen evidence that Larsen thinks he can say, in print, one thing and then, when called to task for it, say something else and pretend that he did not say the first thing. McFarlane, solely on the strength of his 800lb gorilla status in the industry, has occasionally pulled this off -- usually by invoking the name of Jack Kirby, just as Larsen does here. (Remember when McFarlane wished, in print, that all the retailers who had supported the Speculator Boom would go out of business? And remember how, when he realized the error in that statement, he claimed he meant he was talking about the retailers who had "never heard of Jack Kirby". Ay-mazing -- yet he pulled it off!) Larsen is not as good at this as the Toddler, as we see here.

Larsen has repeatedly piled up lie upon lie about myself and my work, yet he demonstrates no shame at all, and continues to try to take the moral high ground -- a task most difficult to accomplish, given the hole he has so efficiently dug for himself. He will lambast me, or George Perez (as here) as if considering himself some kind of arbiter of taste and good judgement, while at the same time screaming blue murder if someone speaks a word against his work or himself.

Sometimes he gets so irate he even forgets to sign his name to his tirades.

 
 


(Login brihunt)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 1:36 PM 

All I know is that if you are going to go out on a limb and take shots at one of the industry's favorites, you better make sure that your stuff is head and shoulders above the guy's work you are ripping. Everyone knows that Erik couldn't carry George's jock strap with a fork lift! His status as one of the founders of Image has gone to his considerable forehead (or in his case, in the words of Mike Epps a "Five-head"). He seems to be jealous of any other fan favorite talent. He picked on Jim Lee because he "aped" a few styles without mentioning his own apes of McFarlane, Byrne, Romita Jr, and lately Jack Kirby.

Here's my ape:

feh

-Brian Hunt

 
 

JB
(Login johnbyrne)
The Chief

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 2:11 PM 

If "Can you do better?" became a rule for all who would express criticism of the works of others, a silence would fall across 90% of human communication!

I have no problem with people finding fault with their betters -- it is all subjective, after all. When i say I don't like the writings of Peter David or Alan Moore, you can be sure there are a flock of fans whose immediate reaction is "Think you can do better?" (Well, yes. . . Like I said, it's all subjective.)

The fault in Larsen's criticism of George's work lies not in the fact that Larsen is so much a lesser light (a matchstick next to a volcano) but that he clearly does not think before "speaking", and so spews nothing of use. Constructive criticism is always the key. Anyone can say "This sucks" or variants thereof.

 
 

Trevor Giberson
(Login Trevah)
Byrne Victim

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 3:32 PM 

Hypothetical question, JB -

If I came up to you at a con with a portfolio, looking for a bit of advice, and my artwork had the exaxt same strengths and weaknesses as Larsen's, what advice would you give me to improve?

Trev

 
 


(Login MattReed)
Robotmod

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 26 2003, 4:38 PM 

"It's hideous (George Perez's art). Really--just because you like it--doesn't make it true. Look at Brian Hitch's work--THAT more closely approximates reality--shadows on faces fall where they belong--faces ARE different from each other but he's not just giving Thor a deformed nose and chubby cheeks like Perez does--he's giving him a different, but still handsome, face.You've been sucked into Perez's world--and that's terrific. George is a great guy that goes all out to give his fans it all. He puts a lot of energy and effort into his pages--but that doesn't mean he can really DRAW better than anybody else. Jose Luis Garcia Lopez followed him on the Teen Titans and kicked his ass. THERE is a guy who knows his shit--he knows anatomy, perspective and storytelling. His city isn't a sea of boxes with no streets but an actual city that looks and feels like a city!"

The above quote by Larson makes me sick. Perez's art is hideous?!?! WTF?!?! God forbid that Perez has more talent in one pinky than Larson has in his entire body. God forbid that Perez doesn't want to populate his artistic world with only "pretty people," but decides instead to make it as real as he can. Larson must not have looked in the mirror lately, or else he'd know that people come in all shapes and sizes and not all of them look like they've stepped out of the pages of a glamour magazine. One look at any Larson page will tell you that his own grasp of anatomy is tenuous at best and downright horrid at worst.

I really despise people that talk out of both sides of their mouths: "Perez draws like s**t...but he's a great guy!" If Larson should be so lucky to have a career that has lasted as long as Perez. Why is it, I wonder, that Larson can't seem to stay on one mainstream title for longer than a year, his illness during DEFENDERS being the (possibly) excused exception? Could it be that his audience is so small as to not warrent him working on any mainstream title for any length of time?

Call me crazy but, if he wasn't already there for me, Larson is now on my "Do not even waste the time it would take to look at any of his projects" list.

Insane.



Matt Reed

 
 
Sketchaman
(Login Sketchaman)

Re: Erik Larsen speaks about George Perez!

July 28 2003, 12:58 AM 

This is not the first time I've heard or read comments from Erik Larson concerning other artists that in my opinion have more talent than he.
To me, Perez is one of the greatest storytellers in comics history (Mr. Byrne included). His ability to convey a countless array of emotions in his drawings from facial expressions to body language is amazing. Some may not like his style, but they can't knock his storytelling.
There are many young artists today with great styles that put out some beautiful eye candy, but without word balloons or captions, you don't know what's going on in the story beyond the pretty drawings. A lot of them have only mastered a limited number of facial expressions (calm, scared, mad, really mad).
Erik may critize Perez and Byrne, but he can never equal there impact on the comic book industry. The only highlights of his career are Spider-man and The Savage Dragon Universe. Everything else he touched pretty much sucked.
Nova? Sucked.
Aquaman? Sucked.
Defenders? Sucked.
I admire his work ethic and his ability to produce consistent work, but he should kick his ego to the curb and realize he could learn a lot from Mr. Perez and Mr. Byrne if he just kept his mouth shut long enough to listen.

 
 
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