Relaunch after relaunch, renumbering books, "Ultimate" versions of characters, does this seem like we have run out of ideas?
Look at DC's vertigo line up, lots of new characters and creativity.
ABC seems to have a pretty decent line up as well.
When was a book launched over at Marvel that was something really new? Thunderbolts seems to be about the only thing that really stands out in my memory.
I almost get the feeling that if Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne hadn't revamped the X-Men in the 1970's Marvel might be close to pushing up dasies
I'm disgusted with the whole Ultimate thing...Marvel needs to get it's butt in gear, go "Back to the basics"(JB?) and start using it's original characters.
I'm really tired of the edgey, kewl new knock-offs of the originals and mulitple books of the same(but different!) groups and heroes....ugh!
Look at DC's vertigo line up, lots of new characters and creativity.
Even Vertigo's not free from rehash. I don't know if it's a Vertigo title, but DC is putting out yet another SWAMP THING series. (Considering that the last series only went to 20 issues, I don't know why they're bothering.)
Looks to me like DC's "Focus" titles are where the originality's at these days.
Besides, this sort of thing has been going on for millennia. Greek gods vs. Roman gods, that sort of thing. The retelling of tales with a contemporary veneer to appeal to the present mind-set is nothing new. It's what keeps these stories vital. The contention ought to be whether the tales are well told or if in the retelling what essentials are forfeited or retained.
Remember too, that for most people, alas, "original" means "I haven't seen it before". Which inspired very little in the way of real thought and rather too much in the way of archeology.
"Remember too, that for most people, alas, 'original' means 'I haven't seen it before'. Which inspired very little in the way of real thought and rather too much in the way of archeology."
This reminds me of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon's "Good Will Hunting." Obviously the voters in the Motion Picture Academy who gave the award for best ORIGINAL screenplay had forgotten about the 1980 Best Picture "Ordinary People" from which Affleck and Damon stole more than just plot elements, they stole dialogue as well.
I can't help but wonder if the glory days of comics are past, and now we can only look forward to the past, at the relics of an age long gone.
******
There are many points thru-out the history of this industry at which that same question was probably asked. After the explosion of the so-called "Golden Age", for instance, there was an implosion, and comics faded, especially superhero comics, for a few years. Then the superheroes came back, and a new age, this time to be dubbed "Silver", was born. And as the bloom was beginning to go off that rose, the "Marvel Age" happened.
Alas, with each new "age" the interest expressed by readers and fans -- the latter being, with each pass, a larger and larger part of the audience -- focused more and more on that single genre, the superhero, until what was the exception became the rule, and virtually all the other kinds of comics shrank away to nothing.
As folded sheets of paper with gaudy colors and equally gaudy writing (however "mature" and "sophisticated" the audience might think it), the American Comic Book may well be gasping its last. The superheroes cannot come to the rescue a third time -- they have, like so many "solutions" in modern society and the industry in particular -- become the problem in and of themselves.
We have seen a mass market product, once known for selling millions of units, monthly (and I do not mean during the Speculator Boom) deliberately transform itself into a niche market, and then demonstrate itself to be completely incompetent in the proper exploitation and development of that niche.
Finally -- yes, ultimately -- we see cannibalism, as the industry feeds on itself. New ideas are hard to come by, and often shunned when they appear. As one DC editor said to me when I made a particular pitch, "Hard sell to the Shops if there's no capes."
I see Ultimates as Marvel's half-arsed attempt to pull it's own "Silver Age revision" like DC did in the '60s. And seeing that it was only about 18-20 years into DC's publishing before they did it, Marvel would be (over)due one right about now.
It would've worked if the original titles weren't still selling and they actually pushed it. When the Silver Age started DC had only Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman at the time, I believe...
There for a while it looked like the Ultimate books were going to replace the originals, but then Strazynski (sp?) on Amazing and Morrison on X-Men made them too big again.
I like the Ultimate books, but with only Bendis and Millar doing them, how long can they last?
I'm a huge Morrison fan and I enjoyed Babylon 5, but honestly, what they've done with X-Men and Spider-Man are so far off-target that they might as well be doing "Ultimate" books.
And as I've been saying for a while now, the Ultimate line would be far more interesting if it was like the Julius Schwartz 1950s revamps. I mean, if you're going to make "Mr. Fantastic" a 20 year old who didn't get his powers from a dose of cosmic rays on a doomed spaceflight, why even call him "Reed Richards"? Why not just come up with a new identity and only retain the name and stretching powers?
I believe that Marvel's Ultimate line was designed to attract and get new readers. I confess to buying and reading my fair share of those comics and I'm an old reader. I was a late-comer to Ultimate Spider Man and the revamped death of Detective Stacy in the new series doesn't have the same impact/feel that the original story did.
The Ultimate line is supposed to be for new readers. There's a few problems with that theory, though:
1) Unless I'm mistaken, the only time the titles broke out of the direct sales ghetto was the short-lived Ultimate magazine.
2) They're not affordable. Sure, that's a problem all comics face these days, but shouldn't an "introductory line" be $1.99 a pop (at most)?
3) The subject matter is usually not suitable for all ages (and no, "suitable for all ages" and "for the kiddies" aren't synonyms). Hard to grab new readers if the eight year olds can't read the comics (oh, wait...they never did, right?).
Question: I've heard many times that the direct sales situation has hurt comics. So why don't comic companies just start selling in the regular shops again? What's stopping them, if anything?
While I may not collect them (I'm a fan of the originals & it probably makes me a hypocrite) but what I enjoy most about what I've seen about the books is that they seem to pursue more realistic and well thought-out origins, costume solutions and adventures that make them very cohesive.
This is what Marvel might have done if they'd invented all these heroes (and the Marvel universe) today. Remember that our expectations are a lot higher than they were 50 years ago. Hey, I'm the guy who loves the idea of a trucker being given a cybernetic implant that lets him access CB radio (check out my icon!) but I think that the younger audience of today don't want Bug-Eyed Bandit or Beppo, they want Hush and Digimon. Okay, I want that too, but you see what I'm saying.
Think of this; my 4-year old niece surfs the internet. When I was her age, I had to play with was a stick.
Mind you that was a pretty good stick.
So are the Ultimates bad? No way. What wrong with a different approach? Is it confusing trying to re-invent different ways to tell the same stories alongside the continuity of the real books? Probably. But hey - I'm easily confused!
Question: I've heard many times that the direct sales situation has hurt comics. So why don't comic companies just start selling in the regular shops again? What's stopping them, if anything?
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Owners of regular shops don't want comics on the rack when they could use the same space to sell magazines which generate more profit for them.
Speaking as a retailer, we don't carry comics because Diamond doesn't accept returns. We don't want to be stuck with old comics, and we don't want to take the loss on them and just pulp them. All the magazines we carry, from various distributors, ie, Ingram, IPD, PPSB, etc. are returnable at the end of the month. As soon as comics are returnable, you will see more at your local newsstand, supermarket, and media retailer.
Rich: "But that would seem to indicate that comics got kicked out of the regular shops, when I was under the impression that comics walked away from them."
It's a little bit of both. Newsstand retailers, especially department stores, etc., don't see enough return for the space that comic books take up, and the publishers of comic books didn't fight to say on the newsstands during the past decade's "Speculator Boom" because they were being short-sighted and believed the industry could survive as well with a newsstand presence. There are many factors involved.
Mike: "As soon as comics are returnable, you will see more at your local newsstand, supermarket, and media retailer."
Mike, what kind of business do you run? Comic books are returnable through the newsstand distribution channels, just not through the Direct Market. The drawback, as I understand it, with the newsstand distribution is that the retailer doesn't get to choose the comics, the comics are shipped a couple of weeks later, and the cost is more.
I'm a manager of a Tower Records - we do, in fact, get a small handfull of comics from Ingram, as you refered to, which we can return - but, as you said, we don't get to pick what we get. We get hits and standards - ie, we get Superman, Spider-Man, Archie and maybe either a Wolverine or X-Men, or whomever has a movie out (ie, we're sitting on a ton of Hulk and DD right now).
We get those because they're more likely to sell. Power to 'em - free market and all, but I guess, putting aside facts for a moment, I think what we're hoping for is a system whereby all comics are available at places other than the direct market, and that won't happen with the current distribution system. You know this, since you're a retailer, and based on your posts, I know you're pretty knowledgeable, but for some of the others here, the whole thing about the DM and non-returnable comics is this: it's ok if a comic book store can't return thier unsold products - they go into back issue bins, at get this, higher prices! Or they go in quarter bins - the retailer has made a mistake, ordered too much, and will take the loss to get rid of product that is taking up valuable floor space.
((We do this at my store - despite all my crying about not bring in comics because they're non-returnable, we have some non-returnable stuff. Most of our toys and sidelines, and any damaged products. Thing is, most of our toys and sidelines sell out, so we don't have to worry about returning them. But what is left [hulk toys anyone?] we mark down and mark down, and finally blow out below cost because they're taking up precious real estate. Same with dammaged goods we can't return. It's the same as having a quarter box at a DM. Well, except, I don't put CD's I don't like on our clearance table, and sniff at the customers who buy them.))
So, that's the answer. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I will repeat a statement that's been said a number of times; the DM and the current distribution situation is the main problem in the market. The DM, combined with Diamond's shitty distribution was kind of cool for a while, but, taking San Francisco as an example, we don't even have stores that carry back issues anymore! So what's the point?
Doesn't matter. I hate comics anyway. I don't know why I'm wasting my time here.
Read your link to Comic Book Resources dude. I found this interesting
>>Thanks to the JL cartoon, his popularity is through the roof. And needless to say, a Static figure would be nice as well.
The real pisser about that is that DC has a third wave of Superman figures coming, and they don't include Steel. What sort of idiocy is that? The lack of a figure of the black Superman is just...sad.<<
I know what the guy is trying to get at, but Steel? Yuck. Just give us the Static Figures.
In related subjects, we all bash Hollywood when they do something stupid (as we should!) but I really have to give Hollywood credit for how they have been handling black superheroes lately.
Blade is on his third movie, and might even have an animated series....yeah...BLADE.
The John Stewart GL, has all but OBLITERATED his comics counterpart.
Static is reaching more kids daily than most "A list" superheroes these days.
Heck, the last I heard Brother Voodoo even got a deal from the SciFI network.
And God seems to have heard my prayers for Hollywood to never make a Luke Cage movie. Now if only he would hear my prayers to have him killed in the comics.
The name is Anthony White. I have this habit of thinking the board will automaticly print my name with the post. Every now and then I slip up and leave the name off.
This message has been edited by 121578 on Feb 8, 2004 6:52 PM
Just a thought- I believe that the Ultimate line does pretty well in bookstores, both in softcover and hardcover. My local Barnes & Noble seems to have sold quite a few Ultimate Spideys. So it is possible that the line has broken the Direct Market ghetto.
For me, the Ultimate line is a way for creators to tell different stories with the same characters. I've enjoyed a lot of the Ultimate books, and so have a lot of other people. And is that so bad?
Not really, Marvel seems to be creating three of everything.They have the Traditional line and the Ultimate Line and the Marvel Knights line that falls somewhere in the middle.
I't wouldn't surprise me to see Marvel create a new Hulk title for the traditional line and move the Hulk we already have to the Marvel Knights line where it would fit in better. And it's only a matter of time before Hulk gets his own Ultimate title.
Kinda like a Coke, Cherry Coke, Vanilla Coke thing.
"I't wouldn't surprise me to see Marvel create a new Hulk title for the traditional line and move the Hulk we already have to the Marvel Knights line where it would fit in better. And it's only a matter of time before Hulk gets his own Ultimate title."
Mike: "As soon as comics are returnable, you will see more at your local newsstand, supermarket, and media retailer."
Mike, what kind of business do you run? Comic books are returnable through the newsstand distribution channels, just not through the Direct Market. The drawback, as I understand it, with the newsstand distribution is that the retailer doesn't get to choose the comics, the comics are shipped a couple of weeks later, and the cost is more.
*****
Making the books "returnable" is something that floats up from some of the retailers from time to time. Everything would be "better", they insist, if, like the newsstands of yore, they could return their unsold product. But, the part they want left just as it is is what distinguished the DSM from the newsstand in the first place: that in the DSM a retailer can order as many copies as he likes, of whatever titles he likes. Returns work only if this is not an option. Imagine how insane the market would become if some retailers felt they could order 10,000 copies of every new issue and return the 9,990 they didn't sell!
I'm very much in favor of the DSM being turned into something much more like the newsstand -- but it cannot be done on a buffet-table basis, using only the parts that benefit the Shops and not the parts that benefit the Companies.
JB, I'm (seriously) interested in what you've just said concerning returns and ordering. How would that affect the comic buyer? Would it be harder to get certain comics or easier under what you've said?
I have a question. Does Blade count as an Ultimate Character now as well? Given the changes made for the movie you could say he was the first character to get the Ultimate treatment. Did Ultimate Spidey come out before the Blade movie?
2.10.04
USA vs Mexico
Will Mexico discover that revenge is a dish best served cold? Or will the USA prove to hot to handle?
I agree with JB. Espeically with the sheer amount of books that we have now. It would be very hard to implement.
The newstands stopped carrying comic books, partly because at 20 or 25 cents, it wasn't profitable to use rack space for that product. Now that books are in the 3 dollar range, I wonder if the same holds true.
I also wonder if DC, Marvel etc. are exclusive to Diamond for the Direct Market or all markets. Could a newstand distributor sell their books?
It's Marvel Knights within traditional continuity? Sometimes I think so.
Ex: Captain America reveals his identity and the last Avengers issue reflects this.
Sometimes not.
Marvel is clear about this, or is the reader to select the issues within regular continuity and the ones out of it?
How many universes are today in the Marvel titles? One per title? Sometime, I think so.
>>Making the books "returnable" is something that floats up from some of the retailers from time to time. Everything would be "better", they insist, if, like the newsstands of yore, they could return their unsold product. But, the part they want left just as it is is what distinguished the DSM from the newsstand in the first place: that in the DSM a retailer can order as many copies as he likes, of whatever titles he likes. Returns work only if this is not an option. Imagine how insane the market would become if some retailers felt they could order 10,000 copies of every new issue and return the 9,990 they didn't sell!
I'm very much in favor of the DSM being turned into something much more like the newsstand -- but it cannot be done on a buffet-table basis, using only the parts that benefit the Shops and not the parts that benefit the Companies.
JB, your reply was a good one, but my point was about making comics avaliable to newsstands and markets such as mine (Tower Records). Now, sure, it wouldn't make sense for the DSM to have returnable stuff - they exist, as a back-issue market, because they can't return their product. What's more, they have shown over and over, that they use terrible judgement in their ordering.
That being said, the real retail market can handle the responsibility of ordering the correct ammount - note how my store alone carries over 1,000 different magazines each month, all returnable, and it doesn't cause any harm to the magazine industry. Frankly, it's because there are a number of policies and procedures in place to prevent such foul over-ordering and returns, but what's more, the people with ordering power outside of the DSM have some common sense.
Anyway - I don't know how returns would effect the DSM, but I can say that if comics were returnable, we'd carry them here. It's the only thing stopping us.
Anyway - I don't know how returns would effect the DSM, but I can say that if comics were returnable, we'd carry them here. It's the only thing stopping us.
******
As far as I know, comics are returnable -- just not thru the DSM. You might want to seek the route thru which the other venues (all both of them) get their comics.
The report does state that at the store level there won't be any noticable changes, but I know it can't be peaches and cream no matter what the official company line is. Good luck, bud.
Yeah, thanks for asking. It's all gravy here. I was a little nervous, but we've been given assurance that things are fine - this is one of those things where it's just a restructuring, while the company is being sold, etc. Fortunatly, business has been up (Go Bush!) and my store is doing really well (#1 in San Francisco!) so, I'm pretty happy.
It's Marvel Knights within traditional continuity? Sometimes I think so.
Ex: Captain America reveals his identity and the last Avengers issue reflects this.
Sometimes not.
Marvel is clear about this, or is the reader to select the issues within regular continuity and the ones out of it?
How many universes are today in the Marvel titles? One per title? Sometime, I think so.
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I'm interested in what everyone thinks of what he had to say. Almost sounds like he spits in the face of everyone who has been reading M*rvel's titles for more than 5 years.
"The first book coming over will be Incredible Hulk, with that month’s issues #70 and #71. “It’s the beginning of a new arc, and it will be our first big, superhero brawl since Bruce [Jones, writer] came on the series – we’re bringing in Iron Man for the story,” Alonso said. “We reasoned that the Hulk universe is big enough to include cyberpunk, and Iron Man fit that picture. Hulk has a weird science backdrop to start with, and Tony Stark is a guy who wears a supercomputer hooked up to an arsenal, so we reasoned that it made sense."
Issue # 70 will be the first big brawl issue since Bruce Jones came aboard...and we all know that was circa # 34. 36 issues @ 12 issues a year = 3 years. 3 years since HULK has had a big superhero brawl. I remember when that was a staple of the genre. Now it's relegated to the closet, only to be brought out to comment (ie. TALK) about it. Further quote: "Bruce [Jones] reasoned that there’s a lot he can say so that it’s not all about the fight – it’s about the men just as much, if not more.”
>>As far as I know, comics are returnable -- just not thru the DSM. You might want to seek the route thru which the other venues (all both of them) get their comics.
Ah! I think I see the problem - I may be using the wrong terms. When I say the DSM, I refer to the comic book stores - I thought that was the Direct Sales Market - my beef is with the distribution, Diamond, which is who doesn't allow returns.
So, having cleared that up, yes, there are other options. One of our best distributors, Ingram (who, is a great company, by the way, for you small business owners out there) sends us a few comics each month - but it's far from a full selection, and it's not a selection - Ingram gets their hands on a few titles (Through Diamond, I suppose!) and it's just stuff that will sell - hits and standards - ie - we get Superman, Spider-Man, Archie, either Wolverine or X-Men and then whoever has a film out - ie - DD and Hulk last year. But we have no say in which ones will be sent each month, and it's a small handfull of titles at best.
I'd like to see, as a retailer, and a customer, what I think would help the comic market, (not the DSM, but, eh.. they've had their chance. Free market and all...) is a return to what I knew growing up. Till I was about 10, I stayed out of comic book stores - they were terrifying ordeals with feces on the floor and old fat bearded guys pontificating on the merrits of guys called "Prez" and "Burn" (what did I know, I was a kid!), when all I wanted to know was how Spider-Man was going to defeat Doctor Octopus this month. I bought all my comics, in my childhood, at the Supermarket, or the 7-11, or liquor stores or newsstands. And that's what I'm campaigning for. I could sell a boat-load of comics here if I could find a way to get them in.
This character's name appears in the "Ultimate" FF in April...Victor Van Damme. I hope it's a typo...or maybe he's Jean Claude's older, Dictator brother.
Not that this should matter or anything but that article on CBR about Marvel Knights was kind of nuts. Hulk = Strange Tales of Science? Ironman=Cyberpunk vehicle?
Bruce Banner = Steve Buscemi? Tony Stark=Brad Pitt? Eh?
I dunno. I think that's a lot of empty high concept flap doodle. I'm not sure it means anything. Is Marvel about to self destruct daddy?
Do they really think that I'm going to assume that Marvel Knights is like some really cleaned up sophisticated Marvel for the sophomore reader who's not impressed by "Thwacks" and "Bawoons" anymore? Did they miraculously hit on the miracle formula this time? Is the long quest for comics the way they should be finally over? Please.
To be honest I didn't even find the Vertigo line (now or in the 90's) to be that amazingly orginal and sophisticated when all is said and done and it's a lot more radical a change from cape packed funy books than what I've seen from the Marvel Knights books so far.
Frankly it sounds like marvel Knights is going to be a sort Wild Storm lite infected to the ears with post Image style polish where all supposedly outmoded superhero fantasies with an ounce of potential remaining in them can get raped and ruined and then "brought back with a vengeance!" Just add a can of edgy and a pinch of "hardcore art"(TM) and every zombie and their kids will be caterwauling "Make mine Marvel!" again.
Well I wish 'em luck and I hope I'm wrong but I fear that the truth deep down under my naive hopes and dreams is that super hero comics cannot be de-ninja-fied.
When this MK revamp thing doesn't work I'm afraid that we'll end up right back in collectors edition cross over hell (but with a twist!) and Charles Xavier will turn out to be a Ninja in a past life and will start carrying a psi-katanna around with him. And it'll cost five bucks a pop.
That's why I mostly read TPB's these days and used ones at that.
I do sort of like Green arrow but I think it's mostly because it's got this angry morbid nostalgic thing happeneing where it's almost a protest against the post crisis retcons and mega crossovers. It reminds me of the Legion of Super Heroes before the 2nd reboot when the writers were slowly figuring out what history was the same and what had changed and eventually had a "young duplicate" legion there to compare and contrast with the old seasoned, tired, wounded, bitter disaffected, but still very human and heroic legion that had lived through the bad times rather than slept through them.
Of course it was a soap opera that was almost entirely inaccesable to anyone who hadn't read the whole thing from beginning to end(Earth is ruled by the Dominators? Mon El is gone? Who is this Valor dolt? Earth blew up? Wha? Shrinking Violet is a hard ass and dating Lightning Lass? Timber Wolf doesn't care? Tinya is dead? How?) and I can see why it was killed but I loved it. Now they have names like Livewire instead of Lightning Lad and I can't bring myself to pick it up.
I think I need comics for old people or something. But better than the JSA comics have been. I can't really get into them no matter how I try. It's just sort of an overwrought obscure character theatre with no particular feel or flavor.
The other comics I really like are the Adventures series from DC based on the WB animations. To tell the truth sometimes I wish that the DC universe as it is would just blow up and let Paul Dini and Bruce Timm's foundation become the new house template for their classic super hero properties. They give me more of that satisfied "old comics reading feeling" than anything else out right now except for a few of the Astro City Paper backs(Tarnished Angel and Confessor especially) and Concrete.
And then they might trundle over to Marvel and fix them up too if Joe Quesada and friends are willing to take their advice. But after all that arm chair strategizing I have to reminf myself I'm just some comic buying twerp/chump and not anyone with a real business interest in this. I guess I'll shut up now before I end up single handedly ruining comics as we know them by saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy at the wrong time. I'm sorry to be so cynical and rant prone. I guess this stuff kind of gets my goat more than I thought. Thanks for reading this far if you did and I don't blame you at all if you didn't.
I sort of like Ultimates, and Ultimate Spider man so far and I've mostly hated the Ultimate Marvel Team UPs. They have been a real mixed bag. Ultimate X-men doesn't feel much like X-men to me and leaves me cold. I'm not sure why but I just can't really appreciate it.
Ultimates is a typical deconstructivist book so far though it's well written if a bit heavy on the shock value(Hulk eats and rapes people? Banner doesn't care? Pym tortures his wife? Gaah! Captain America would blow up a school bus full of babies if a ranking offcicer told him to? Tony Stark is just trying to enjoy his last roller coaster ride? Thor is a quasi eco-terrorist nut case? ).
USM however is kind of a weird reverse take Peter Parker. The old classic Peter was a bundle of narcissim and repressed rage. He could be down right terrifying when stressed and the early issue leave you wondering if he was going to go over the edge and break his vow to his dead uncle to remember that power comes with repsoibility. Sure he eventualy levels out and flies right and learns how to be a great guy and the story is largely about him grwoing into his long johns but in the early days he is arrogant and out of control. He's a hormone with webshooters and no clear grasp of his limitations and a fairly weak grasp of what consequences his actions might have even after the loss of his uncle.
Heck! He was downright anti-social! A lot of his stunts played right into Jonah's hands! Remember how he broke into the Human Torch's party and tried to steal his girlfriend, humiliate him, and even starts a fight with him? Remember how he pranced into the Baxter building and tried to hard sell them into giving him a job and then took off after saying ridiculous stuff that would have surely burned bridges? He had one hell of an inferiority complex to overcome and putting that mask on seemd to bring out the worst in him at times. The anonymity was a huge temptation for him to let loose and make enemies.
The Ultimate version of Peter seems to be less head strong and aggressive once he gets his powers. He's downright reluctant to use them and afraid that he'll really hurt someone. He pulls his punches. He tones it down when people start to react to him fearfully. He adapts well once given a chance. Best of all he had Nick Fury telling him early in his career that he's being watched and evaluated and to a limited degree protected by the black hats at S.H.I.E.L.D.
Peter was surprisingly polite and apologetic when "re-enacting" and revising the now classic offer to join the Fantastic Four for Big Bucks in the Ultimate Team UP. And instead of making fun of him they praised him for being resourceful and the son of brilliant man and encouraged him and told him that even their lives weren't a bed of roses even with all their fame, assets, and apparent repectability. They also tell him to stay in touch. He's just a better guy than mainstream Peter was at that age.
I also loved how he took out the Kingpin with is note card routine and stolen video footage.
So while I have mixed feelings about the Ultimate line and have little use for the Ultimate X-men(I read through the 6th TPB and quit) I do like the Ultimate Spider Man comic.
I think the Ultimate line has a lot of potential if they keep it simple and stay true to it. It's not without problems though and as I sated above it's already got the hardcore "black ops/everyone's a ninja" disease pretty badly.
This message has been edited by Palaeomerus on Feb 22, 2004 5:58 AM
