sorry for another OT thread, but with JB's interest in all things skeptical i thought it might be of further interest...
On a recent nationally sydicated AM radios program, Sylvia Browne claimed that James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge was fake and would never have the funds to pay off when/if someone proved their psychic abilities.
Today, on the Paul Harris show on St.Louis's KTRS, Randi issued a formal challenge to Browne...the following is an excerpt from Harris' newsletter and a link to Randi's comments on the show...
JUST PLAIN HARRIS (#199)
James Randi vs. Sylvia Browne
March 2, 2004
James Randi took on Sylvia Browne today on my KTRS radio
show. He came right out and called her a liar.
Browne is one of the self-proclaimed psychics who claim to
be able to speak to the dead. Of course, she has never offered
any definitive proof, because she can't. She did agree, three
years ago on CNN, to take Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal
Challenge, but has never lived up to that promise. Instead,
she's been spreading lies about Randi, who has been holding his
tongue, but has now decided to fire back at her. On Friday,
Randi's going to publish even more details about Browne.
When it's online, I'll post a link to it on HarrisOnline.com.
In the meantime, listen to my conversation with Randi at http://www.harrisonline.com/audio/listings/jamesrandi.htm
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"Don't get too excited. Maybe you're not invited to my Action/Adventure dreams."
--Andrew Bird, "Action/Adventure"
OT I thought I would mention that Randi was part of the Alice Cooper show in the early to mid seventies.
I find it interesting that nobody has been able to come up with proof, to at least try to get the million.
Shaun
Lots of people have TRIED for the Randi prize. The problem is that no one has been able to demonstrate anything approaching paranormal abilities in a simple, controlled test setting.
Check out "Flim Flam" at your earlist opportunity. It should be required reading for anyone who enjoys thinking.
.........someone out there is reading this post. And this someone is happy in a sad kinda way, tall yet short, with darkish light long hair that hangs short around their head. This person is also quite heavy to be so thin.
Now, where do I go to get my check? You all saw me do it.........
Check out "Flim Flam" at your earlist opportunity. It should be required reading for anyone who enjoys thinking.
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Is it also good for those of us who don't particularly enjoy thinking, but can't helpe ourselves anyway?
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You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different.
JB - If you get the time have a listen to that last interview (access via the link in the first post).
There was a great show here last year about Randi and an investigation into the memory of water. Worth a watch if it turns up on BBC world (or whatever it's called).
The Amazing Randi is one of my heroes (and only One Degree of Separation away, since my Ex worked with him once, during her trade show days). If there were more Randis and fewer Brownes the world would be a better place.
I have spent some time with James Randi -- less than an hour, but enough to see him for the genius he is.
I don't use the word 'genius' lightly, and it is certainly appropriate in this case.
His challenge (which first started out at $10,000) has always fascinated me. I believe that some psychic stuff is possible, but if it is, I would think that it would stand up to scrutiny.
After all, other human attributes can be measured and proved; it stands to reason that if you have an ability, you should be able to demonstrate it.
Randi's debunking of Uri Geller and 'evangelist' Peter Popoff (who claimed to be able to heal people and do other stuff) is heroic.
As a Christian (a hopeful yet skeptical one), I think the guys who fill the tents and the churches with folks and command God to heal at their command are a bunch of phonies. It did my heart good to see Popoff exposed for the fraud he was.
I would only hope that more frauds are similarly debunked.
After all, other human attributes can be measured and proved; it stands to reason that if you have an ability, you should be able to demonstrate it.
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Humans are born with all their faculties intact (excepting, of course, those poor folk who are born minus some of the parts). It stands to reason that if psychic powers were real, we would be born with them, as we are born with sight, smell, hearing, etc. Parents should have to spend much of their child's early years teaching him/her that it is not polite to read Aunt Polly's mind, or to forecast what is hidden behind all that Xmas wrapping paper.
(Fred Hoyle, in one of his novels, postulated that telepathy is impossible, since it would have to operate on Direct Current, and the human brain works on Alternating Current. JB-) )
(Fred Hoyle, in one of his novels, postulated that telepathy is impossible, since it would have to operate on Direct Current, and the human brain works on Alternating Current. JB-) )
How come? What was his reasoning behind that? I'm not a psychic believer at all in fact I own quite a few texts on the supernatural, magic and the occult but in all my studies on these subjects found them to be a bunch of huey... Magic and the supernatural exspecially... The occult involves people "believing" in something which even though they have no evidence of such they still do. In spite of that I love the subject matter and have an extensive library on the subject. Research material really for a book I'm writing dealing with the supernatural and magic but it is strictly fiction/fantasy stuff.
Sorry to ramble but why WOULD Telepathy HAVE to work via direct current? Or even by electrical current at all? Again I don't believe in it just curious as to why this theory was developed...
Sorry to ramble but why WOULD Telepathy HAVE to work via direct current? Or even by electrical current at all? Again I don't believe in it just curious as to why this theory was developed...
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You have to ask Fred Hoyle. Perhaps Sylvia Browne can help. . .
under conditions of fear and anxiety a bodies chemical process kick in and animals can pick up on emotional change based on these chemical changes that occur. They can't per say smell emotional states as much as react to the secretions that these emotional states cause the body to go through. It also gets into body language and posture as well....
One of the things you learn when visting Africa and are going to view Elephants in the wild is that when they approach you do not run away from them... Running away will cause them to chase you. Instead you wave your arms and yell at them...taking a dominant posture. There are things that can be read and observed that indicate emotional state or communicate things between species that are not language.... Obviously NOT Telepathy but there are ways of "reading people" and getting a general sense of their emotional state based on posture and body language. People who do Cold Reading study this.... they don't really read as much as coach or suggest.
My whole point is that there is a chemical as well as an electrical process in the brain and a purely electrical definition of "telepathy" if one is going to hypothisize its existance misses alot of what goes on in the brain. Thoughts are not radio waves so much as electrical impulses that stimulate secretions of chemicals and fluids in the brain... Which is why brain activity is an Electrochemical Process. Action between the cells is chemical, while action within the cells is electical.
Sorry just interesting stuff to talk about is all.
As a sidenote: an interesting extension of wireless technology and cyberpunk style implants could allow a form of digital telepathy. The nerves for the vocal cords and the ear are intercepted and routed to mobile phone transmitter. This would allow you to talk to somebody without anybody else hearing and at a distance - pretty much the definition of telepathy or a telephone call. In fact a cell phone call would pretty much be the neariest real equivalent to a telepathic conversation -- replicate every stage of that technology biologically and it may just work.
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If you have not see "The President's Analyst" -- you should!!
My whole point is that there is a chemical as well as an electrical process in the brain and a purely electrical definition of "telepathy" if one is going to hypothisize its existance misses alot of what goes on in the brain.
The biggest stickler for any "scientific" theory of telepathy is the tranmission mechanism. Yes chemical signals can be distributed by the body (i.e. in sweat, or other bodily excretions), but as an information carrier they are crude and are basically limited to mood or just a simple "I-was=here" marker. A chemically transmitted form of telepathy would require external receptors and emitters linked to the brain (yeah nose and arm pit!).
Without introducing new physics (always the killer for most paranormal theories) the only mechanism that even has a chance of explaning telepathic transmission is electro-magnetic fields - too large a scale for the strong and weak forces and too small a scale for the gravitational field.
It has been claimed in fairly respectiable studies that a brain's operation can be effected by various types of EM fields. Personal I think the furthest you could stretch this would be a limited form of empathy or mood influence, but I think even that is highly unlikely.
I also have serious doubts about the classical form of telepathy where people claim to transmit ideas and thoughts. To transmit ideas you need a common language -- the electrical or chemical signals that make up a certain idea in one brain are not necessarily the same exact signals that make up the same idea in a different brain.
As a sidenote: an interesting extension of wireless technology and cyberpunk style implants could allow a form of digital telepathy. The nerves for the vocal cords and the ear are intercepted and routed to mobile phone transmitter. This would allow you to talk to somebody without anybody else hearing and at a distance - pretty much the definition of telepathy or a telephone call. In fact a cell phone call would pretty much be the neariest real equivalent to a telepathic conversation -- replicate every stage of that technology biologically and it may just work.
If you have not see "The President's Analyst" -- you should!!
I haven't seen it yet and unfortunately it is not out on DVD yet, but I'll keep an eye out for it on TCM -- one of these day's I'll have to cave in and go retro with a VHS player.
Is it just me, or does anybody else note that JB posts at 2.29 on 3 March in reply to Jason's 2.30 post - is this proof of telepathy, and can I claim by million bucks from Mr Randi?
Or is it just that, as moderator, JB picked up and replied before the post got posted?
In defense of Sylvia Browne, I think some facts should be added to this little thread:
1. The police recruit her on a regular basis to help on cases. These are actual cases mind you.
2. There was a women on the Montel Williams Show whose son had been missing for about five months and Sylvia told her he was gone and had died, told where the body would be, told the name of the killer (bleeped out for the telecast for legal reasons of course...), the police found the body where she said it would be, and found the man and he confessed.
3. Several months before the 2000 presidential elections Sylvia was asked who was going to win and she said that Al Gore would win...but he would not be president. She couldn't explain how that would happen but she insisted that he would win but not be president.
4. On several episodes of the Montel Williams Show, she has told James Randi to name the time and place and she would take the challenge and he has always refused and, conveniently, seems to always come up with the excuse that he does not have the time.
5. Sylvia told him on the phone that she would do it, asking him if she past the test would he actually have the money to pay for it. He then hung up on her.
6. Sylvia Brown claimed that one of the things Randi wanted her to do is to summon a spirit that, in his words, he could "taste, touch, and feel". Never mind the fact that Sylvia never claimed to be able to perform such a feat. In exchange, she told him that to make it easy on him, and to prove her a fraud all the easier, that whatever he wanted her to do that he didn't have to tell her what the task would be until the moment she arrived so she would have no opportunity to "cheat". He, of course, refused.
7. In an effort to settle this little feud once and for all, Montel Williams invited them to both appear on the show, Randi agreed but ONLY if Sylvia was not on the same show he was. Montel refused saying it wouldn't be fair unless they where both present. He refused to be on the show if Sylvia was present.
8. The fundamental point all the skeptics seem to ignore, according to Ms. Browne, is that no one psychic knows everything there is to know because if they did they themselves would be, well, God. Of course this does not stop them from coming up with their many "Well if you are psychic, and thus know everything..." comments.
It's interesting how Randi, and most of his "skeptical cronies", never comment on these little tidbit's huh? If Randi is so secure in his belief that anything that can't be seen, touched, or understood by our omniscient science does not exist (the mantra of most skeptics), why does he come off like such a coward when the facts are examined?
It's really a shame that someone who has exhibited real abilities like Sylvia Browne gets lumped into the same mix as complete phonies like John Edwards. This guy requires every audience member to fill out forms before each appearance and or show. Not so with Sylvia Browne, no such forms are ever filled out in her appearances live or on TV. There have been instances where skeptics go to her appearances in order to stump her by making up a story and she has flat out told them they where lying. There is none of that crap "Does anyone her know somebody who's name starts with..uh..a M?".
The real problem with the world is the phonies who give the truly "gifted" a bad name, and the so called "skeptics" who are every bit as close-minded as the blindly religious or spiritual people they look down their nose at.
This message has been edited by robertwhite on Mar 4, 2004 7:09 PM This message has been edited by robertwhite on Mar 4, 2004 7:07 PM
It's really a shame that someone who has exhibited real abilities like Sylvia Browne. . .
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The shame is that apparently intelligent people like yourself allow yourselves to be duped into believing this claptrap. If Sylvia Browne could prove her abilities under carefully monitored and controlled conditions she would be $1,000,000 dollars richer, Randi $1,000,000 poorer. And yet. . . .
Why the controlled conditions when she seems to want to make it even easier for him to prove her wrong? I repost points 4-7.
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4. On several episodes of the Montel Williams Show, she has told James Randi to name the time and place and she would take the challenge and he has always refused and, conveniently, seems to always come up with the excuse that he does not have the time.
5. Sylvia told him on the phone that she would do it, asking him if she past the test would he actually have the money to pay for it. He then hung up on her.
6. Sylvia Brown claimed that one of the things Randi wanted her to do is to summon a spirit that, in his words, he could "taste, touch, and feel". Never mind the fact that Sylvia never claimed to be able to perform such a feat. In exchange, she told him that to make it easy on him, and to prove her a fraud all the easier, that whatever he wanted her to do that he didn't have to tell her what the task would be until the moment she arrived so she would have no opportunity to "cheat". He, of course, refused.
7. In an effort to settle this little feud once and for all, Montel Williams invited them to both appear on the show, Randi agreed but ONLY if Sylvia was not on the same show he was. Montel refused saying it wouldn't be fair unless they where both present. He refused to be on the show if Sylvia was present.
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I've found that not every skeptic is truly interested in the truth. They want to smear and degrade anyone who claims to have any ability beyond the five senses that science tells is the extent of human ability. Everyone KNOWS that John Edwards is a lying fraud, everyone knows that all television evangelists are full of BS. Those are the easy targets. However their collective existences should not lead to the conclusion that ALL that claim such powers are lying.
I've read several things on Randi and his controlled conditions seem to add up to unreasonable conditions. Why did he require her to perform a feat that she NEVER stated she could perform or has performed in the past? Basically a person could tell him that they have limited telepathic abilities and he would require them to conjure a ectoplasmic chicken form the dimension of Ragadorr as proof of their abilities. He says in his stipulations that both sides have to agree on the terms and conditions.
It seems to me that he sets this up not so much as to prevent certain charlatan’s from cheating, but to prevent any unwanted occurrence on the off chance that an individual might have some sort of metahuman ability. Oh I'm sure he has proven many a phony a phony, but I doubt that this man, from what I've learned of him, is TRULY interested in facts. At least any fact that contradicts his criteria for how the universe is structured.
I challenge Randi, or anyone, to explain to me how Sylvia Browne has been right about so many real police cases? If she did not generate success why would an actual police force enlist her aid in the first place? How does she do these things without requiring people to fill out forms? How does she go into specific personal facts about people without any prior knowledge of their existence? An example:
A woman, after haven two miscarriages, asked if she would ever have a baby. She told her that she would but would suffer three miscarriages first. She also told her that within one year of the final miscarriage she would have a baby. A year or so later on an update episode of Montel's show, she said that she did in fact have three more miscarriages and after the third miscarriage did in fact have a healthy baby boy. Many instances are factually documented on tape.
Why don't skeptics ever comment or want to delve into substantial occurrences like these? Is it because she does not reveal great cosmic secrets? I find it unlikely that the above situation was simply a lucky guess. I have never heard any skeptic refute or bring any proof to the table as to how she is so can be so accurate in her predictions. Why?
1. The police offices she claims to have helped say differently.
2. It didn't happen.
3. It didn't happen.
4. It didn't happen.
5. It didn't happen.
6. It didn't happen.
7. It didn't happen.
8. Not exactly a "fact", is it?
Like most psychics, Sylvia Browne lies quite often and quite extravagantly about her past hits. Fortunately for her, there are millions of people who are willing to believe whatever she claims she said or did, rather than taking the time to investigate what she actually said or did.
I guess asking you for proof that it didn't happen would be asking too much since it didn't happen and thus there could be no proof?
I've seen video of her with these policemen. Were they actors? I've seen her on news footage, Unsolved Mysteries etc. with policemen. Did this not happen? So are you saying I'm lying? I can assure you that these shows took place so otherwise I don’t get it.
It's easy to find out if these instances are true or not. Written transcripts of Montel Williams show can be easily attained. The significance of this is that they are dated and thus help sustain her predictions you see.
This message has been edited by robertwhite on Mar 4, 2004 8:40 PM
Let's look back to just one particularly cruel hoax perpetrated by this woman Browne. Years ago on Montel Williams' show, she spoke to the grandmother of a local missing child, a six-year-old named Opal Jo Jennings who disappeared from her home in north Texas in March of 1999. Browne told the distraught woman that the child was still alive but had been sold into white slavery and was currently being held in Japan. She even gave a city name, but there is no such city in Japan. Moving ahead three years and nine months, we find that the body of little Opal was recovered — just seven weeks ago; she had been killed by a blow to the head. Currently, there is a man in prison in Texas who has confessed to, and been convicted of, Opal Jo's abduction and murder.
Think about what's happened here: Sylvia Browne callously raised the hopes of the family of this little child, placing the fictitious location on the other side of the world. She did this well after a comprehensive search had already been performed in Texas, so she was pretty sure that the girl would never be found. She thought she was safe against exposure. She wasn't; the body was found and definitively identified. That was a callous, cruel, manipulative act by Sylvia Browne. But no one calls her to account for it, and her supporters continue on in Lotusland cooing over her wonderful powers. You have to wonder how someone can do such a heartless act. Sylvia can, and does.
Randi Repeatly calls Browne a liar in a response he put up friday just gone. Now I don't know the laws in the states very well, but that would be Libel here in the UK and she could sue him for a fortune, if he was making this stuff up.
So that's what she will do, right?
Let's not hold our breath.....
This message has been edited by Charlesknight on Mar 6, 2004 12:07 PM This message has been edited by Charlesknight on Mar 6, 2004 11:07 AM
I've read several things on Randi and his controlled conditions seem to add up to unreasonable conditions.
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Randi's "unreasonable conditions" add up to an application of the same rules to which every scientific claim is subjected before being accepted: Do what you claim you can do, in front of witnesses. Then do it again. And again. And again.
It's really very simple. If I claim I can boil water, I will be able to demonstrate exactly how I do it. The means will be clear, measurable and repeatable. Likewise if I claim I can build a machine that will fly, or travel under the ocean.
If I make claims I can talk to the dead of read minds, I better be able to do so, repeatedly, and without the least hint of fraud. So far -- Sylvia Browne included -- there has not been a single "psychic" anywhere on Earth who has been able to do this.
Randi Repeatly calls Browne a liar in a response he put up friday just gone. Now I don't know the laws in the states very well, but that would be Libel here in the UK and she could sue him for a fortune, if he was making this stuff up.
So that's what she will do, right?
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There's an old joke in legal circles: be careful about accusing someone of libel -- they are liable to prove it.
Under American Law, it is my understanding, it is libelous to call someone a liar, but not to say they are lying. Sylvia Browne would be entitled to sue Randi for calling her a liar -- but then she would have to prove in court that she was not a liar. I am sure Randi -- a most intelligent man -- knows this, and if indeed he called her a liar in so many words, that is probably why!
No, I'm saying you have been deliberately misinformed.
I'm saying you're perhaps a bit too quick to believe what you see on the Montel Williams show.
And I'm saying you have a very loose definition of what consitutes a "fact".
I'm going to guess that no one here has ever actively participated in one of the police investigations that Browne claims to have assisted with. At best, we are all limited to second and third hand evidence. Based on what I've heard from both parties involved, I find Randi's testimony to be far more credible than Browne's. If you have direct, tangible evidence to the contrary, I for one would love to hear it. As you aptly point out, there's no way I'm going to be able to prove what didn't happen and what wasn't said.
