After last nights announcement a whole flock of separate threads sprang up discussing and commenting on the new DOOM PATROL series. I've decided to lock 'em all down and start this one, where all your posts can accumulate in one place, to avoid repetition of questions, comments and answers, and to make for easy splittage when we get to 75 -- which I am sure we will!
Any new DPatrol threads that spring up after this will be transplanted her, and the original deleted.
And here are the questions I WON'T be answering about the new DOOM PATROL series:
Names, looks, powers of new members.
Ditto of new villains.
Whether any old villains or DP members will be reintroduced.
Anything about the stories themselves.
(And this is not a challenge to try to find ways around those, or to find questions you think I won't want to answer but now "have to" because I didn't list 'em.)
JB-)
This message has been edited by johnbyrne on Mar 10, 2004 8:53 AM
Well I know it's been the hot rumour for ages but it's still a nice 'surprise' in a way. My only exposure to the Doom Patrol are those appearances in the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans issues so I am looking forward to finding out more about them.
Once again, thank you. You've made this Doom Patrol fan very happy with this news.
Another question or 2 for you: You had mentioned, via hints, about "someone borrowed", " a 'monkey'", etc., when you were teasing us all. Can you tell us now what those hints mean exactly? (i.e. The someone borrowed is "so and so"...) Also, you mentioned a "Wonder Woman" style reboot. What will that do previous incarnations of the team that appear to be heavily tied to the DCU and certain characters? (i.e. Team-up with the New Teen Titans and Gar Logan's origin.)
I realize that second question might be pushing it, but I'm very curious to see how this all works out. Even though I know I'll probably have to wait until June to see.... ( Gonna be a looooong 3 months....)
This message has been edited by KevinTBrown on Mar 10, 2004 8:32 AM
I too, am a virtual Doom Patrol beginner. I've read whatever JB has done with them in the past, and I've read a handful of the series that was drawn by Steve Lightle, and then Eric Larsen (even have a page of art from Larsen's first issue), but that's it. Looking forward to getting to know this team.
This message has been edited by Dave_Pruitt on Mar 11, 2004 11:42 AM
What will that do previous incarnations of the team that appear to be heavily tied to the DCU and certain characters? (i.e. Team-up with the New Teen Titans and Gar Logan's origin.)
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As I note in a text page I wrote for DOOM PATROL 1, Gar is the Donna Tory of this reboot. I doubt very much, tho, that you will be seeing a "Who is Gar Logan?" storyline any time soon! His involvement with the Doom Patrol is not central to his character. The "problem" can be solved simply by not mentioning it (like Reed and Ben's service in WW2).
The impact here will be far less, I should think, than, say, Frank's alterations of Batman's mythos in YEAR ONE.
I'm in the same situation as Dave. I've read only a few Doom Patrol issues in the past.
I've decided to hold off on buying the archives until I'm invested in the new series so that I don't have any expectations of the characters, etc. I think it will mean more surprises and more fun reading.
Now, I'm not just saying this because half the board (myself included) has been beggin' for this creative team-up for months now, but you are, of course, morally obligated to colaborate with Geoff Johns on a Changeling mini.
One of my older brother's friends gave me a bunch of his old comics back in the early '70s (when I was 8 or 9) -- part of what I found in those stacks of old comics was a large run of a comic series called "The Doom Patrol." I read through them in order (what a treat!), and was somewhat shocked when I got up to issue #121 (where they all died).
Cool team, but, alas, they were gone.
Later in my comic reading life, I discovered that Robotman lived. Pretty cool.
I went on to become and X-Men junkie during the Byrne/Claremont era, and I also devoured all of the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans books, where I got to "know" Gar Logan (a.k.a. Beast Boy). This character is now getting a lot of exposure in the "Teen Titans Go!" young adult comic and the Teen Titans animated series as well.
In all my time reading Teen Titans, I was dimly aware that Gar had ties to the Doom Patrol, but they didn't seem to be defining ties, per se.
Later I read JB's new Doom Partol origin in DC Comics Presents; JB did the art, I think -- can't recall who wrote it, but it was good. I did miss the original characters -- I wouldn't say I'd ever developed a "love" for them, but I had a realization that the Doom Patrol books were the first "serious" comics I ever got my hands on, so I kind of mourned their passing even though they never were one of my all-time "faves."
Fast forward to now:
JB resurrecting the Doom Patrol from scratch -- WITH the ORIGINAL members! WOW! This one's going to be good!
So what about my thoughts on Gar Logan? Simple: I don't see any impact at all, frankly. I still have all the original Wolfman/Perez Titans books, and I don't feel like the resurrection of the Doom Partol minimizes any of the Gar Logan characterization I found therein (where I came to "know" Gar Logan). I always got the feeling that Gar had been a mid-run, "throwaway" character in the original Doom Patrol and then Wolfman/Perez went on to "resurrect" him as a viable, interesting character -- in much the same way that JB is now resurrecting the Doom Patrol (I don't think any of the original Doom Partol issues that I inherited even featured Gar/Beast Boy, so, as I said, I "got to know him" in Teen Titans). To be honest, I can't even really recall any references to the Doom Patrol in the original Wolfman/Perez Titans run, or any references to Gar's parents at all. If it was mentioned I forgot about it, which means it probably didn't drive any major storylines, and it didn't provide any major motivation or characterization for Gar.
Also, given how much of the original Teen Titans occurred pre-Crisis, how can anybody keep track of this stuff, anyway? In my mind, Wally West was and is Kid Flash . . . but now Barry Allen's gone, and Wally is the Flash. Okay, great. If that's how it goes, then just tell me good stories and I'll continue to come along for the ride.
I've already heard some folks indicate that this "new" rebirth of the original Doom Patrol makes Gar a "continuity orphan," but I just don't see it. The character of Gar Logan and/or Beast Boy has never been defined as an orphan to me, and the ties to the original Doom Patrol were seldom mentioned as far as I can tell.
There will undoubtedly be more outcry from portions of fandom about how JB's "new" Doom Patrol minimizes the character of Gar Logan / Beast Boy, I'm sure, but to the people who will waste any more time pondering this than I've already put into typing this message, I say . . . feh.
Bring it on, JB -- this one's going to be a lot of fun!
-- JCB
P.S. In case you're wondering, I no longer have that run of old Doom Patrol comics -- they got lost somewhere along the line. I'm sure that I got rid of them as I started to "outgrow" comics, much like my brother's friend got rid of them in the first place.
Gar is the Donna Troy of this reboot. I doubt very much, tho, that you will be seeing a "Who is Gar Logan?" storyline any time soon! His involvement with the Doom Patrol is not central to his character. The "problem" can be solved simply by not mentioning it (like Reed and Ben's service in WW2).
I'm pretty sure Geoff Johns was notified of this either directly or through editorial, JB, since he's Beast Boy's writer in Titans nowadays. Can you relate if this is something he was psyched about, would have to work around, or anything inbetween? I'm interested (as I'm sure the other Byrne-Johns fans around these parts are) to hear about any interaction between our two favorite writers. Can't wait to see these books!
I'm pretty sure Geoff Johns was notified of this either directly or through editorial, JB, since he's Beast Boy's writer in Titans nowadays. Can you relate if this is something he was psyched about, would have to work around, or anything inbetween? I'm interested (as I'm sure the other Byrne-Johns fans around these parts are) to hear about any interaction between our two favorite writers. Can't wait to see these books!
******
I have not been directly in contact with Geoff -- not about this, anyway -- and don't really see much reason that I would need to be. This is a problem, as I have noted, best addressed by not addressing it. In this InterNet Age there are those who will spin like Dervishes, demanding some kind of "answer", but in truth they need no more than what Frank Miller provided by way of explaining how Alfred became the Wayne family's old family retainer, how Barabara Gordon became an adopted child, and how Catwoman switched from being a flight attendant to a dominatrix/hooker.
As John Bodin notes above, Gar's connections with the Doom Patrol are simply not an important enough part of his character to warrant concern. (Each time I read a comment about this here I am reminded of the howls of derision that arose in fandom -- even in those pre-internet days -- when it was announce that the "New" Teen Titans would number "Beast Boy" in their membership!)
This is a "storm cloud" that will fade to the faintest breeze -- if only it will be allowed to!
I see that over at DC's message board the Dervishes are already spinning.
I'm reminded once again of when I did MAN OF STEEL, and discovered that there was no part of the Superman mythos, no matter how thinly it was sliced, that was not deemed by someone to the the "most important". I really did get a letter complaining that I had "ruined" Superman by removing Beppo the Supermonkey from his story. "Don't you understand how important Beppo is??" Well, er, no, frankly!
Gar Logan is more important in the DCU than Beppo ever was, to be sure, but his importance to the Doom Patrol, and their link to the Teen Titans is close to nil. There will most certainly be people who will fixate on this element, of course, as that one guy, 20 odd years ago, fixated on Beppo, or that small flock of people fixated on Peter Parker's microscope -- but if all concerned focus on the big picture and not the inconsequential minutia, I think we can all get thru this with minimal bloodshed.
DC's concern in wanting the book done this way -- and my concern in agreeing to this kind of a reboot -- is that anyone can feel completely comfortable picking up the first (or any subsequent) issue of the new DOOM PATROL without worrying that there is 40 years of history they have to learn before they can get past the first page.
Worked for Wonder Woman, worked for Batman. Of course, both those reboots happened before the internet was in full flower, didn't they?
The character of Garfield Logan enjoyed his greatest popularity during the Wolfman/Perez "New Teen Titans" days. Since that series creators left many, if not most, of the core characters suffered drastic alterations in their subsequent appearances.
In the early 1980's, with the original Doom Patrol members deceased (Cliff Steele being the lone exception), the Titans references concerning Changelings affiliation with the old team were a nice ode to this classic group.
Shortly after, enter the first of several DOOM PATROL revamps with mixed results and varying degrees of success. Beast Boy's elimination from a reboot of Doom Patrol should have no bearing on fans who have already survived the loss of the Dick Grayson/Robin, Wally West/Kid Flash, Garth/Aqualad, Roy Harper/Speedy and tragically, Donna Troy/Wonder Girl.
Marv Wolfman, himself, eliminated Terra, Kole, Aquagirl, Dove and Raven. The Titans also lost Danny Chase/Phantasm, Golden Eagle and the original Bat-Girl (Bette Kane).
Changeling/Beast Boy should be a dead issue as far as the new (restored) version of the Patrol goes.
Doom Patrol was nebver a comic that I picked up, but a Byrne project always gets my attention. There are a few creators, JB among them, whose work alwasy warrants a look at the comic store. I'm sure with JB at the helm, I'll be able to catch on fast. Can someoen provide me with some info on who the Doom Patrol is and why the team was formed in the first place? Also, will this book be appropriate for an 11 yr old? My nephew just started reading comics, and I'm looking for some appropriate material for him. Thanks.
Those are some really beautiful pencils on the JLA cover and DP#2, JB....great work.
A "backlash" of sorts, has already started over at the DC Boards, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Several long-time fans are going to give the new series a try....that's great....we need more open minded readers.
Tiny rant: I have to disagree about Gar, though...
his "birth" and growing years have had a LOT to do with the Doom Patrol...he WAS spawned from the DP's loins(as it were)....fini
I am a HUGE stickler for continuity and/or history(and I'm still in a bit of shock)...however, I am glad to see the original team back...I missed Rita, Larry and the Chief. As I said in the other thread...I'm going with an open mind(and heart) into the new Doom Patrol series....I love your work and I want to see what adventures you have in store for them. Thank you so much, JB.
Even though I am not a big fan of redos in general, in this case it may very well be neccessary. I am very excited about this series. Ever since the one shot you did, I have been waiting for DC to wise up and let you do this.
While as a Titans lover I might feel a few pangs of regret at Gar's origin, NEW readers will get a kick out of your Doom Patrol.
This is just the coolest news ever! My first real exposure to the DP was the Secret Origins issue that JB did with Paul Kuppenberg, and I absolutely loved it.
JB, I am SO looking forward to the JLA arc and then the first issue of the new and improved DOOM PATROL...gah...I can't even find the words. Here's hoping for at least 100 issues.
Don't see why not. DOOM PATROL will not be a Code book, but an average 11 year old will not encounter anything in its pages s/he has not seen or heard on Prime Time TV or in any recent "family" movie.
(As Mike Carlin so wittily phrased it, I can say "pissed off" but not "pissed on".)
Tiny rant: I have to disagree about Gar, though...
his "birth" and growing years have had a LOT to do with the Doom Patrol...he WAS spawned from the DP's loins(as it were)....fini
******
Gar grew a lot in his TEEN TITANS years -- but not a whole lot of that growth was directly dependent on his association with the Doom Patrol. He was a vaguely embarassing character tacked onto the group for "youth appeal" (by a bunch of middle aged guys who were so out of touch with the Youth of America they were still using "hep" in the mid 60s), and, as I have noted, there were howls of outrage when it was announced he would be joining the Titans. First order of business was giving him a better codename, second was ignoring all prior characterization.
Like I said -- this is one of those problems that is easily solved by simply not mentioning it. (Already my Pocket Universe Sense is tingling. . . )
As Mike Carlin so wittily phrased it, I can say "pissed off" but not "pissed on".)
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It's better to be pissed off than pissed on anyway.
Gar originated in the original DP I don't think it matters one tick that he is not in this series. I have ALOT of the original run of the DP and the Gar Logan from the Titans has as much to do with the Beast Boy in the Doom Patrol as Frank Miller's Batman has with Adam West's Batman.
Two completely different characters...Wolfman and Perez created a whole different personna and character. Beast Boy in the DP would still retain his human head when he turned into an animal which was colored correctly for that corresponding animal. Only his head remained green. Also in DP Gar's head was colored purple! Beast Boy from DP and Changling are soooooooooooooo far apart that there really needs to be NO correlation between the two.
Read Beast Boy in DP and then Wolfman and Perez's Changling in Titans...two different characters... Those old Titans are fun but in no way do they need to be set in stone.
JB's NEW Doom Patrol looks GREAT! and as an original fan of the DP and the New Teen Titans....everything I have heard so far sounds AWESOME and ruins nothing whatsoever..... Changling is a fun character....Beast Boy from the original DP was an obnoxious little brat that most DP fans hated and were over joyed when they got rid of him. Re-working or Re-booting is the right way to go!
DC and JB are doing the right thing...no question!
Gar grew a lot in his TEEN TITANS years -- but not a whole lot of that growth was directly dependent on his association with the Doom Patrol. He was a vaguely embarassing character tacked onto the group for "youth appeal" (by a bunch of middle aged guys who were so out of touch with the Youth of America they were still using "hep" in the mid 60s), and, as I have noted, there were howls of outrage when it was announced he would be joining the Titans. First order of business was giving him a better codename, second was ignoring all prior characterization.
Like I said -- this is one of those problems that is easily solved by simply not mentioning it. (Already my Pocket Universe Sense is tingling. . . )Quote from JB
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Good point about the Titans years growth. I simply associate Gar heavilly with the DP, since My first "DP" comics were Teen Titans#13-15....I must admit, I MAY(not sure yet)have a hard time at first accepting the new "history", but again...I'm open minded. I'm going to work and on the way pick up JLA#94...Yippeee!
Basic history:
#1 Has a fatal disease
#2 Cure for the disease turns him green and enables him to take the form of any animal.
#3 Parents die in an accident.
#4 Goes to live with a rather nasty guy named Galton (Was that his name?)
#5 Hooks up with the Doom Patrol
#6 Steve Dayton becomes Mento in an effort to impress Rita Farr.
#7 Eventually Steve wins her heart and the two get married.
#8 Shortly after the wedding, Rita and Steve get custody of Logan.
#9 Doom Patrol agree to be blown up to save the lives of a small fishing village.
#10 A few months/years/whatever later, during which Logan has a brief acting career, Logan joins the Teen Titans
#11 Sometime after that, Steve comes down with a fatal disease and uses the Mento helmet to cure himself
#12 The combination of the cure and his involvement with John Constantine leads to Dayton going nuts and ending up in a wheelchair.
#13 Dayton, inspired by Niles Caulder, forms a new team called the Hybrid.
#14 Hybrid has several encounters with the Titans, but eventually ends up teaming up with the Titans to cure Dayton's insanity.
#15 Logan continues with the Titans for awhile, then goes off to Hollywood.
#16 Dayton turns evil for whatever reason and is eventually killed.
#17 Logan joines the new incarnation of the Teen Titans
All but 4 of those can be left alone. For the rest:
#5 Can be taken out without problem.
#6 Need another woman in place of Rita, but other than that is fine.
#9 Needs to be altered obviously. Have the "new Rita" killed in an appropriate fashion.
#13 Change Dayton's inspiration from Niles Caulder to Logan himself. ("You like hanging out with freaks so much - well, here's some freaks of my own.")
As for individual stories... no one seems to complain about all those times Donna went to Paradise Island in the original Teen Titans series so I don't really see a problem. (So how DID Logan survive being attacked by Deathstroke if the Titans didn't have access to the purple ray? )
(Edited to revise #10)
This message has been edited by Dave_Phelps on Mar 10, 2004 10:17 AM
Okay, no I didn't send this idea into Dave's head, but I was thinking the same thing this morning. The only thing Gar needs is a different "mother" figure. She can even be a movie star, just not Rita.
I just took a few minutes to refresh my memory about Beast Boy's history with the Doom Patrol, as I haven't read any of it. From what I can find, nothing requires him to have any connection to them. He gets a weird disease, an experimental treatment gives him powers, he is orphaned, his parents' evil lawyer becomes his guardian, then after a court battle he is adopted by loving parents. He starts his superhero career and his acting career follows.
There's nothing in his origin or character that requires him to be connected with anyone in the Doom Patrol. I don't know if JB has any plans for Mento -- and I know that question is off-limits! -- but he seems to be the only strong link between Beast Boy's past and the present.
I agree with JB that it should simply go un-mentioned, but if JB is not using Mento, we can easily imagine that Mento was a member of a different pre-CRISIS group who was mourned and avenged repeatedly throughout the TITANS series.
MENTO I hope that JB puts him into the DP somehow..... I always hated Beast Boy but liked Changling alot! I think with this series we can have our cake and eat it too! we can have Mento without Beast Boy.... I dug his funky helmet, powers and costume!
I'm seeing the word "reboot" a lot. Does this imply that this series will technically "introduce" the Doom Patrol? If so, I find that intriguing.
I'm looking forward to this series, as I've always liked the Doom Patrol and I just hope that your involvement with the series ends only when you want it to (hopefully when my grandkids are starting college).
I'm seeing the word "reboot" a lot. Does this imply that this series will technically "introduce" the Doom Patrol? If so, I find that intriguing.
*******
Our catch phrase is "Together Again for the First Time!" (which we may actually put on the first issue cover!)
The DPatrol that appears in JLA94 (sort of but not quite as shadowy figures) are the original members, but JLA94 is the first time any of them have appeared openly in the DCU. Batman at one point later in the story expresses some knowledge of them (Hey! He's Batman!) and there is an established link between the Chief, Rita and Ray Palmer -- but other than that, it is terra nova , the new world.
I'm so looking forward to this!
Do we get to see the new logo? Or are you gonna wait and show it later?
Will DC be promoting it much? Would be nice if it got the cover to Previews like Firestorm did. But I have a fear that Identity Crisis comes out the same month and might take that spot.
Has the "New" Teen Titans series, by Geoff Johns, made reference to any of those characters?
If not, then it's not too important.
Teen Titans is also looking to get a wider fan-base and isn't directly connected to the older stuff. Generally, if it's not referred to in the new Titans series, it didn't happen.
>> While Byrne is remaining somewhat tight-lipped about the news, he has revealed that Gar Logan (Beast Boy) will be among the members of the new team...<<
Some people will obsess over anything. The comic world is a living world owned by no one except the copyright holders. Considering these characters are nearing 40 years old and have never truly been reworked is a testament to their wonderful beginnings and original appeal as a story and family.
DC made the mistake after crisis of doing the History of The DC Universe. They should have just initiated the Legends reboots and been done with it. Trying to have some editorial and 1 writer retrofit the entire history of dc comics post-Crisis was an insane move and it failed. How can we expect, as readers, to not be continuity facsists if we say "hey, it's OK that we got some of those 85/86 reboots but everything else that happened in the silver age has to be retrofit to coincide with the new Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman origins?".
We all know Post-Crisis DCU is a mess and until we accept that everything old must be new again it will continue to be a mish-mash. The vocal minority that live, eat and breathe continuity will just have to get over it. DC has a huge library of characters that need to be continually reborn or re-worked to fit into nearly 60 years of the Superhero age.In 20 years it will have been 75+ years since WWII...I hope DC can still explain all the original JSAers still being around. We need to start thinking of comics as a living history..because the copyrighted characters are still teher, but they may not fit the culture or times. That is not to say that the concept cannot and should not remain. We just can't be so retentive about these things anymore.
If you have a character sketch, model sheet or anything that shows Rita in full costume laying around, would you mind posting it? I'm trying to do some fan art, here....
I haven't bought a comic from DC or Marvle since Generations 2. I may have to end that streak when Doom Patrol comes out! I'm quite excited about this! I can't wait to see what directions the book goes in! Yahoo!
And I love the way you fooled some internet chumps with the whole "glc" thing. Hilarious!
My original post was deleted and I was told it might have been because I didn't use my name. I originally thought it was because my post wasn't completely full of praise. I guess I can test that theory. I'm being very careful to follow all the guidelines for this post.
I have been looking forward to a John Byrne Doom Patrol series since way back when he did the Secret Origins Annual.
That said, I'm a bit disappointed at the decision to do a full reboot with the book. My disappointment stems from the loss of several good characters (all members of the Doom Patrol to come after the original 4). I liked Celsius, Tempest and Negative Woman. I liked Scott Fisher, Dorothy Spinner and Rhea. I didn't so much like the Vertigo turn and would have no problem ignorning that. It also causes problems with Titans beyond Gar Logan. Much of the early Wolfman/Perez stories involved Mento and the Brotherhood of Evil. I assume they are being rebooted as well.
Heroes come back from the dead all the time. Rita could have returned without completely disregarding all that had gone on before. Everything in the Vertigo (and beyond) run could have easily been a dream Cliff was having.
I wouldn't have even minded the reboot if DC were doing some big Crisis or Zero Hour event that realigned things.
I don't care about the little things like what happened in panel 2, page 3 in issue X. I'm talking in broad strokes. It's being wiped out completely. There didn't even really need to be reference to any of the previous continuity with the exception of explaining where Rita has been. There wasn't a lot of baggage to bog down new readers if you discount the Vertigo stuff.
It's kind of depressing. It's like that one toy you wanted more than anything else for Christmas and when you finally get it, it can't possibly live up to your expectations.
There hasn't been a single comic JB did that I haven't picked up (excpet Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch) but I've got some thinking to do on this one. Where goes this post go I.
This message has been edited by Kamandi2 on Mar 10, 2004 1:32 PM
This is a problem, as I have noted, best addressed by not addressing it
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This is such a refreshing take on continuity. The need to "explain" things and wedge new concepts into old continuity just makes things more confusing.
Not mucking around and trying to make everything fit is actually more faithful to the original spirit of the characters if you think about it.
I'm looking forward to DP. To see a vet with honest-to-goodness graphic storytelling ability work on characters he has genuine affection for will be a pleasant change from so many of the superhero books now on the stands. It should be a fun ride!
DC made the mistake after crisis of doing the History of The DC Universe.
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I really enjoyed those two issues. The art was great, and the story was fairly sound. Plus it was from the perspective of the Anti-monitors minion (or whoever she was), therefore all of the gaps that people find could easily be blaimed simply on her not being aware of these things.
That said, I'm a bit disappointed at the decision to do a full reboot with the book. My disappointment stems from the loss of several good characters (all members of the Doom Patrol to come after the original 4).>>
There's no reason these characters can't be reintroduced later.
<< I liked Celsius, Tempest and Negative Woman. I liked Scott Fisher, Dorothy Spinner and Rhea. I didn't so much like the Vertigo turn and would have no problem ignorning that. >>
This is a major problem with how some fans approach comics. It's not so much "reboots good/reboots bad." It's "don't get rid of/ignore stuff I like, but feel free to get rid of/ignore stuff I don't like."
<<It also causes problems with Titans beyond Gar Logan. Much of the early Wolfman/Perez stories involved Mento and the Brotherhood of Evil. I assume they are being rebooted as well.>>?
I'm sure this will be addressed but even if it isn't (and I really don't think it should), how does that affect the current stories? Do they just fall apart at the seams because twenty-year-old stories have been retconned out of existence?
If you are a strict adherant to continuity, then Gar Logan is dead now because he was never revived due to the Purple Ray, which I don't think exists in the current continuity.
Heroes come back from the dead all the time. Rita could have returned without completely disregarding all that had gone on before. Everything in the Vertigo (and beyond) run could have easily been a dream Cliff was having.
I wouldn't have even minded the reboot if DC were doing some big Crisis or Zero Hour event that realigned things.
I don't care about the little things like what happened in panel 2, page 3 in issue X. I'm talking in broad strokes. It's being wiped out completely. There didn't even really need to be reference to any of the previous continuity with the exception of explaining where Rita has been. There wasn't a lot of baggage to bog down new readers if you discount the Vertigo stuff.
It's kind of depressing. It's like that one toy you wanted more than anything else for Christmas and when you finally get it, it can't possibly live up to your expectations.
There hasn't been a single comic JB did that I haven't picked up (excpet Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch) but I've got some thinking to do on this one. Where goes this post go I.
I know I asked this before, but very curious to know the answer: Are there any plans for you to do interviews and/or conventions to hype the new series?
And the reason I ask a second time is because I'm hoping for a JB appearance at the Chicago Con in August.
Also, after reading through a majority of the posts about this new series (from DCMB to Newsarama to here) a lot of people are really ticked at this reboot. Why? Yeah, it messes with some continuity issues, but it's nothing that cannot be explained away. Besides, as someone else has pointed out in another board, most of their "post-Crisis" appearances have not been readily apparent in the DCU. The only I really can remember (with the exception of the New Teen Titans appearance) is their appearance in JLA : Year One.
People either just need to just move on and ignore this book if they don't like it, or buy it before trashing it. (Odd that I say that, since I'm rather vehement about the current "Firestorm" debacle.) I think it's the only way to do DP properly. And unlike "Firestorm", you're apparently going to remain true to the characters. That, more than anything else, has me excited about this series. (Well, the artwork might have a tiny bit to do with it as well.... )
Scott: "My disappointment stems from the loss of several good characters (all members of the Doom Patrol to come after the original 4). I liked Celsius, Tempest and Negative Woman. I liked Scott Fisher, Dorothy Spinner and Rhea. I didn't so much like the Vertigo turn and would have no problem ignorning that. It also causes problems with Titans beyond Gar Logan. Much of the early Wolfman/Perez stories involved Mento and the Brotherhood of Evil. I assume they are being rebooted as well."
You have every right to be disappointed; after all I was disappointed in the loss of Cliff, Larry, Rita, and the Chief. And if some writer out there sees them in the same light that John (and others) saw the original four, they'll be back.
As to causing problems with Titans, first, the B o E and Mento can exist before the DP. Next, how much do those Titans issues have to do with today's Titans, really? Do they walk around asking the vets to "tell us about the time you fought Madame Rouge?"
Finally, some advice to someone who has been where you were. Several years ago, DC decided to "event" a certain emerald hero into something awful. I really felt strongly about it, enough to give up comic books for decades. It was the only way to make peace with it, as DC had decided to stop publishing comic books I wanted to read. If you just can't bear the change, then take the break.
For me, this JLA arc and the Doom Patrol will be comic books I want to read.
Just saw the pics posted on one of the locked Doom Patrol threads, and I have to say: WOW! JB, I think that this is perhaps your best work. I am an aspiring/wishful artist going on 10 years now, and looking at some of your pencils I am simply amazed; and also disappointed at my own ability compared to yours, but then you are a professional. Compared to your earlier works (which I am also amazed at) you have done what I thought was impossible, you became even better. So kudo's to you JB!
My disappointment stems from the loss of several good characters (all members of the Doom Patrol to come after the original 4). I liked Celsius, Tempest and Negative Woman. I liked Scott Fisher, Dorothy Spinner and Rhea.
Yeah, but let's look at these characters. Celsius, Tempest and Scott are all dead. Rhea is... well, I don't know HOW to explain what she is. Negative Woman is powerless (okay, that's fixable). I think Dorothy is usable. Don't know if Arcudi did anything to her in his run.
I didn't so much like the Vertigo turn and would have no problem ignorning that.
Hey, gotta play fair. No picking and choosing what you ignore.
It also causes problems with Titans beyond Gar Logan. Much of the early Wolfman/Perez stories involved Mento and the Brotherhood of Evil. I assume they are being rebooted as well.
Yeah, but a lot of the early Wolfman/Perez stories involved Paradise Island. It all works out in the end. Mento can work with minor tweaking to his history (change the girl he became a superhero to impress and you're done). The Brotherhood's a little trickier, depending on if and how JB uses the Brain and Monsieur Mallah. Two ways to go with that - the Brotherhood are now retroactively Titans foes foremost that are encountering the Doom Patrol for the first time or start from scratch and ignore prior appearances.
Heroes come back from the dead all the time. Rita could have returned without completely disregarding all that had gone on before. Everything in the Vertigo (and beyond) run could have easily been a dream Cliff was having.
Once again, not nice to pick and choose what you ignore. Every era has it's fans.
I wouldn't have even minded the reboot if DC were doing some big Crisis or Zero Hour event that realigned things.
Hypertime? If you don't count the Arcudi series, then all prior DP appearances could have been wiped out as a result of Zero Hour. The Arcudi series itself was pretty much in its own world, so can be pulled from DCU continuity fairly easily.
(Edited to add: I should have said "is ignored" rather than "you ignore." As a fan, you can ignore whatever the heck you want! )
This message has been edited by Dave_Phelps on Mar 10, 2004 2:15 PM
DC made the mistake after crisis of doing the History of The DC Universe.
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I really enjoyed those two issues. The art was great, and the story was fairly sound. Plus it was from the perspective of the Anti-monitors minion (or whoever she was), therefore all of the gaps that people find could easily be blaimed simply on her not being aware of these things.
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The chief problem with THE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE was that it had a CRISIS reference in it, and CRISIS could not, by definition, have happened in the post-CRISIS universe. It was a self-canceling event; that it happened, means it didn't happen.
I didn't so much like the Vertigo turn and would have no problem ignorning that.
Hey, gotta play fair. No picking and choosing what you ignore.
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And that pretty much says it right there, doesn't it? Everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they care to form of the new DOOM PATROL (after they've actually seen it!), but I grow terribly weary of this whole "Change Is Bad Unless I Like It" attitude so many fans seem to cop.
Erm, anyone else think Negative Man looks kind of like a nude Ghost Rider? Or is it just me?
So is that what the Doom Patrol #1 cover is all about? John Stewart enters the JLA monitor room and is shocked to discover Batman and the Martian Manhunter surfing the internet for full frontal nude pictures of Ghost Rider...
Er, sorry.
Those pencils for the cover of JLA #99 are breathtaking. I think that's going to be the best cover on any comic this year.
Has an uncensored JLA #98 cover been posted anywhere?
JB,
I am coloring your wonderful Doom Patrol cover and would like to know the color of the "Negative Man" type character's glow. I will post my coloring over on my little web page and not here as this site/thread is your time and place for praise and I don't want to piggy-back.
Great job building the suspense, fun, and mystery for this title in the months before it was announced. It was worth every minute. Thanks for all that you do!
I did not fight alone. It was one of the first things the Great Carlini and I agreed upon -- that the whole point of calling Larry's alter ego "Negative Man" is sorta lost if he turns into a color hold!
...can you tell us who will ink?, an if yes...who is it?
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"I can't stand to fly
I'm not that naive
I'm just out to find
The better part of me
I'm more than a bird ...I'm more than a plane
More than some pretty face beside a train
It's not easy to be me
I'm only a man in a silly red sheet
Digging for kryptonite on this one way street
Only a man in a funny red sheet
Looking for special things inside of me
It's not easy to be me."
Superman by Five for Fighting (Taken from "Smallville OST")
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Juan Jose Colin Arciniega
From Mexico City
I just discovered the hard way that I have no idea how to draw a skeleton....
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Probably because I had a "Visible Man" kit when I was a lad, I have always felt pretty much at ease with skeleton drawing -- more than fully fleshed figures, in fact. I have an admontion to myself written on my drawing board: DRAW A SKULL, DUMMY, to remind me that when I have trouble building a head I should draw the underlying bones first. Sometimes I forget to do this, and the results leap off the finished page at me.
John, it's great you're tackling one of my favorite superhero groups of the 1960's (well, next to the Challs and the Metal Men, and I hope someday you have plans for them as well! Sure would love a "reboot"!). Since the Vertigo issues, they've stunk so bad that I've always referred to them as the "Doo Patrol"...
One question for me has always been... How did they get the name Doom Patrol? I thing there might have been something in the "origin" issue (My Greatest Adventure #80something?) that refers to the name, but I can't remember why they refer to themselves by that name.
This is going to be fun! Can't wait to see the first issue!
I hope there is an exploration about the name. How there is a connotation of rushing to your own doom; the willing, noble sacrifice our everyday heroes are ready to give because it is part of the job description.
"We are the Doom Patrol. We dance on volcanos and stick our heads inside the lion's mouth. We'll jump into Chernobyl. It's our job. It is what we do."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
I'm 22, and have been reading comics since I was five.
Crisis on Infinite Earths was before I started reading, and the Showcase #94 reboot of the Doom Patrol was before I was born. Man of Steel was one of the first things I read.
I think a little perspective needs to be maintained when it comes to continuity. I think consistency with the character (Bruce Wayne=Batman, Clark Kent wears glasses) is good, but being nailed down to things (Iron Man in the Korean War) is not so good.
How can you jump on board a series/character if you have to research back before you were born to get the "history" that's all-important to some? I mean, all this talk about imaginary stories - they're ALL imaginary stories!
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You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different.
Even though I know I'll probably have to wait until June to see.... ( Gonna be a looooong 3 months....)
