It seems one of the things making the dervishes whirl over on the DC message board is the notion that a vampire biting Superman would end up with "a mouthful of sunlight". This is based on a story in which "Dracula" bit Superman, apparently. (No, I didn't read that story -- and apparently not many other people did, either, since my JLA arc passed under many eyes at DC and no one raised a question on this point.)
The notion that Superman's blood is so "filled with sunlight" it would kill or harm a vampire is, of course, preposterous. What harms a vampire is the purity of the sunlight, the idea being that sunlight is not "bad" like moonlight. And whatever courses thru Superman's veins it is not, by anyone's definition, pure sunlight!
Typical example of the over-literalization that some fans, alas, seem to think is "cool".
1. Does DC plan on you doing a poster for Doom Patrol?
2. Are there any plans for a Doom Patrol Secret Files (even though there wouldn't be much to add since it's all new).
3. Annuals? Does anyone remember what the concept was of having these?
I'm kinda glad you didn't go with Cliff waking up to find Rita in the shower...
Edited to add: Fifth Element still lingers in my brain, so Crucifer has a slightly different impression on me, btw.
This message has been edited by kossori on Mar 11, 2004 9:29 AM
"PRO: I don't have to deal with stereotypical comic book guys who criticize the fact that I buy a JB comic."
I've never had that problem where I shop. The majority of the JB fans seem to skew older. The "aging fanboys" make up the majority of his readership there. It's the people from his early Marvel days who have pretty much followed him through thick and thin. Unfortunately, the younger crowd in the comic shops are more interested in the "Image" style or Manga style art in books. There are an enlightened few, but for the most part they see it as "old school" (like that's a bad thing). I guess the shop I go to just has an older client base than some others.
The majority of the JB fans seem to skew older. The "aging fanboys" make up the majority of his readership there.
******
If they read my stuff they are, by definition, not "fanboys", ageing or otherwise. "Fanboy" is a prejorative, which I would never use to describe my FANS.
Thank you for not refering to us as Fanboy's, John. I hate that term. I ( hanging my head low ) will admit that I do have the Superman issue dealing with the vampire thing.
Thing that gets me is....how many times has Superman faced vampires over 60 years, but this 1-shot story is now cannon for vampire/Superman interactions?
This is as stupid as the complaints on how JB didn't respect what Ennis had done on Demon and JB was such an ogre for it....but yet no one mentioned how Ennis never respected what Kirby did with the character. Cuz, that's OK, as none of them ever read the Kirby stuff, so "it doesn't count".
I recall expressing my excitement about the JB JLA arc to a friend a while back and unfortunately, his reaction was predictable: He is the type of comics fan who wants his stories to "count" and for the characters to "grow and change." He wants everything to be like The Authority or The Ultimates -- challenging the genre and so on.
As I explained to him when I was reading GENERATIONS last year, JB produces comics that few people seem to want to produce these days -- classic, well-done, smart, and most of all "fun" comics. No, Batman isn't going to have a midlife crisis ("Alas, I'm 40!"); Superman isn't going to cheat on Lois; Wonder Woman isn't going to explore her attraction to women. The Flash is not going to decide to stop wearing his costume.
These people want superhero comics to be something else entirely. They're sort of like people showing up at a pizzeria demanding steak and potatoes. It doesn't matter how much I tell them this pizza tastes great -- they "hate" it because it's not steak and potatoes.
So, I've found it's pointless to debate with people with this sort of mentality. I'm just glad JB is still making classic comics.
This is as stupid as the complaints on how JB didn't respect what Ennis had done on Demon and JB was such an ogre for it....but yet no one mentioned how Ennis never respected what Kirby did with the character. Cuz, that's OK, as none of them ever read the Kirby stuff, so "it doesn't count".
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There's the problem in a nutshell. For these fanboys -- and here the term is appropriate -- nothing counts but what has been published since they started reading .
I began reading superhero comics with Superman, back in 1956. For several years the only Superman I knew was the one that was being currently published (the reprints in the Annuals presenting a Superman who was not noticably different from the contemporary guy). But when I started seeing the older stuff, I was blown away. I found it fascinating to learn how much Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman et all had changed. The introduction of Jay Garrick in THE FLASH was a real mind-blower.
Pretty soon I began to understand how comics worked , how these stories came to be assembled by the various talents involved. I began to see that "continuity" (not a word I knew, or one that was much used in the business) was important only in the broadest sense. That Superman not be from Mars one issue, for instance, as I have noted.
Perhaps the potential Pro in me was born when I came to this discovery, this realization. When I began to understand that there were people telling the stories, and stories is what they were. Not canon. Not Holy Writ.
Above all, superhero comics are supposed to be FUN. They can have important lessons, they can have moments of intense emotion and drama -- but if, over all, you're not having a good time, you're reading them for the wrong reasons.
This is not, after all, like the old joke about why I enjoy banging my head against a brick wall -- because it feels so good when I stop. . .
These people want superhero comics to be something else entirely. They're sort of like people showing up at a pizzeria demanding steak and potatoes. It doesn't matter how much I tell them this pizza tastes great -- they "hate" it because it's not steak and potatoes.
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When I first encountered this kind of thinking, back when I was just entering the Biz (and there were a lot fewer of these bozos, at least proportionately) I used to say they were like people sitting on mountaintops complaining about the lousy fishing.
What has happened, alas, is that the proportion (if not the actual number) of these people has increased as the marketplace has shrunk. More and more it is the hardcore, long time fans who make up the readership, and they want the comics that once spoke to important parts of their lives to continue to speak to important parts of their lives. But the comic that speaks to a 15 year old is not likely to speak to a 40 year old, unless either (a) the comic has undergone radical changes or (b) the 40 year old is enough on the ball that s/he can recognize comics for what they are, and enjoy them for that. (When I say "comics" here, I mean superhero comics, of course. Comics as a format, as a medium, can contain any and all kinds of material -- which is one of the things that makes these complainers so pathetic. There are lots of comics -- many more than when I was a kid -- catering to all kinds of emotional and intellectual needs. To complain that AMAZING SPIDER-MAN does not fulfil the needs of a 40 year old reader is like that 40 year old buying a Mustang and bitching that he can't carry his son's soccer team in it.)
The Big Question now confronting the Industry is this: Do we continue to pander to the ageing fanbase, or do we actively seek new blood, new readers (perhaps at the risk of losing some of the older readers). We know these so-called (but actually far from) "mature" comics are impenetrable and/or inaccessible to younger readers. So we know we are losing them before we even have them. The question is, are we prepared to keep doing this, and letting the industry wind down and fade away as our ageing demographic dies off? Or are we willing to take proactive (a word I dislike intensely) steps to "grow" the readership at the ground floor, where new readers are most needed?
Reading your last couple posts here, John, you've gained even more respect from me.
I agree with your opinions about how we need to reach out to younger audience. And companies need to learn that young audience means "accessable", not "immature".
For the corporations, the ever elusive new reader, is something they must have. It comes at a great price though. New readers don't support old creators. They want new and fresh. They don't want someone who has been in the business for years. They want the young super-star talent. They don't appreciate seasoned professionals who actually understand how to tell a story. They just want slam, bang, action and pin-up style poses. All style and no substance. While I want the industry to grow and survive, I hate to think about it being at the expense of my favorite creators. Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Carmine Infantino, Roger Stern, Jim Aparo, Gene Colan and others can't seem to get a job in the industry from either of the big 2 anymore.
New readers don't support old creators. They want new and fresh.
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What a preposterous statement! To a new reader the oldest hack on the block is "new and fresh".
The notion that a new reader can only be attracted with new material exists only in the minds of those who have forgotten what it's like to be new readers. To the new reader everything is new!
STAR WARS is almost 30 years old -- but every generation produces a swarm of potential fans who have never seen it before.
"It comes at a great price though. New readers don't support old creators. They want new and fresh."
Truly "new readers" won't know the difference between an "old creator" and a "new creator." It's ALL new to the "new reader." It's the "aging fanboy" who wants "fresh takes" to allow characters to grow and change. It's the aging fanboy who thinks Joe Penciller is a hack whose "old stuff was better". It's the aging fanboy who thinks Sam Scripter can't do anything but "recycle old stories."
A new reader might be drawn in by a marquee name of a Hollywood hotshot who want to dabble in comics, but it's up to seasoned storytellers and experienced artists to keep them around.
(Now, I promise to stop using " " marks for the rest of the week.)
I think the point was that older talents get no respect from young whipper-snappers, but that's been going on, to some extent, for a long time. When I was starting out, I didn't care for Kirby or Ditko, and I was all jazzed about the new blood, like John Byrne and George Perez.
Don't the kids these days want Manga stuff, and comics that look like their video games? I took one look at the new Iron Fist comic, saw the lousy (IMHO) Manga-type art inside, and put it back on the shelf. I hope some new kids buy it though.
What a preposterous statement! To a new reader the oldest hack on the block is "new and fresh".
The notion that a new reader can only be attracted with new material exists only in the minds of those who have forgotten what it's like to be new readers. To the new reader everything is new!
STAR WARS is almost 30 years old -- but every generation produces a swarm of potential fans who have never seen it before.
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Damn skippy JB! When I started reading Lee/Ditko and Lee/Kirby stuff it was close to 20 years old, but to me it was the most exciting and bewildering thing I'd ever seen. I'm trying to acquire the Barnes & Noble softcover versions of the Marvel Masterworks so my son can enjoy the same things at the same age I was when I first saw them. I would get Essentials but there's just no way he's going to sit and read them in Black and White. He is somewhat spoiled when it comes to that. Strangely as I was getting those old Marvels under my belt I was reading the B/W Elfquest and TMNT. When my brother found the color re-prints of those I ditched my B/W copies. Imagine the re-sale on those puppies now!
Sean
P.S.- I just REALLY wish my son and step-daughter would stop calling STAR WARS "Episode IV". That really gets me going. In fact I think they do it on purpose now.
People just hate change if it's not the kind of change they want. I can see both sides of the argument. I truly dislike what DC is doing with "Firestorm". I personally feel it's an unnecessary change. It's like saying, Superman is now going to be Faber Doyle.
Ok, back on this topic.
Where I buy my comics, the owner keeps saying that Byrne never sells. Yet, for some reason, he doubled his order of JLA. His excuse? Because JB was coupled with Claremont and Ordway. I'm not going to flame the guy for his reasoning, because he is a very good friend of mine. However, he needs to stop projecting his own dislikes onto his customers and their potential buying habits. (And, yes, I did say that to him...) Of course, his dislike of JB has clouded his judgment of what he thinks can sell. Unfortunately, because of the failure of Lab Rats, he "knows" he's right now. Oh, and he has zero copies of Generations 3 left in his store, with people still asking if he can get more. I, and others, tried to convince him to up his order, but he said (all together now), "Byrne doesn't sell." [rant] Well, of course he doesn't sell if you don't have the copies to sell!!! [end rant]
Now to the point: I think people dislike this change because it's that "evil John Byrne at it again". There's still a hardcore piece of "fandom" who hate how JB "destroyed" Superman. Those people, unfortunately, are probably the most vocal on the MBs. (For some reason I picture these people shaking their fist at their monitor, ranting and raving, saying, "damn you, Byrne!" Then going off to play with their unopened action figures and purring, "My pretties." I know, harsh assessment, but it's how I feel.)
Change for the sake of change is not a good thing. (re: Firestorm) Change for a new look at an old concept may or may not be a good thing, depending on how it's handled. (re: Superman) Change to recreate and restore is, in my opinion, a damn good thing. (re: Doom Patrol)
People need to relax a bit. We essentially know nothing of what JB has planned for the new book. As a comics and DP fan, I am very excited with the return of the REAL Doom Patrol. Having JB doing it is the icing on the cake. So if these critics don't like it, then they shouldn't buy it. And if they're not planning on buying it, then they should stop commenting and complaining.
Yeah. Same seems to go for the She-Hulk-book. Although it IS interesting. Shulkie, Iron-Fist, Alpha-Flight. They revived three books John has intensively worked on before...
Well, of course [Byrne] doesn't sell if you don't have the copies to sell!!!
******
Self fulfilling prophecy is an elusive concept for many.
Hand your retailer this challenge: Tell him to pick the biggest seller he has in his store. Then tell him to stop ordering that book for 2 months. At the end of those 2 months, ask him how many copies of that book he sold.
New readers don't support old creators. They want new and fresh.
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What a preposterous statement! To a new reader the oldest hack on the block is "new and fresh".
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It really is not preposterous. New readers are usually attracted by word of mouth from friends. The "oldest hack on the block" is not new and fresh because their comic reading peers tell them it's not. I started reading comics when my next door neighbor started talking about how great they were.
New readers will almost inevitably be teens. Very few adults start reading comics if they weren't exposed to them in their childhood. The teen years are all about peer pressure. A new reader is going to start out reading the books the other young people tell them to read (that is, not the old pros for the most part). They are going to read Image, the X-Books, the Ultimate line, Jim Lee on Batman, etc. Peer pressure, being what it is, will prevent many from every expanding beyond that world.
New readers don't support old creators. They want new and fresh.
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What a preposterous statement! To a new reader the oldest hack on the block is "new and fresh".
*******
It really is not preposterous. New readers are usually attracted by word of mouth from friends. The "oldest hack on the block" is not new and fresh because their comic reading peers tell them it's not. I started reading comics when my next door neighbor started talking about how great they were.
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Now you are talking about something else entirely. Not what new readers want (your original statement), but what new readers have been told they should want. Not the same thing at all.
I wonder how old comic book readers are before they start paying attention to the credits in comic books. I know when I first started I didn't pay attention to the names of the people who made them--only that the comics were cool.
Now you are saying the kids are only going to check out comics if some hot Hollywood writers is doing the scripting chores?
I'm sure Wizard has a hand in programming kids that all that is important is WHO is doing the book--not that the books is actually fun and satisfying to read.
I was probably luckier than I know, to have started reading comics when there were no (or at least very few) credits. Some artists signed their work, and sometimes there would be little "credit boxes", like that book that would appear in stories written by Gardner Fox -- but mostly I followed artists by their styles ("Hey, look! The WONDER WOMAN guy is drawing this new METAL MEN series!")
(Further along these lines -- Julie Schwartz told me once upon a time that there was no issue number on the first Silver Age GREEN LANTERN because fans were not interested in "new" series, and wanted books with track records. How times change, huh?)
I paid no attention to the credits when I started reading. My first comics were the ones my neighbor gave me. They happened to be a small stack of DC books and I've loved DC ever since. I'd probably been reading them for a good year before it dawned on me to pay attention to the credits and try to find other comics by the same people.
The thing is, by definition, a shrinking fan base means that there are fewer "new readers". All the kids that I see wandering into my LCS are buying Pokemon or Yugioh cards and not even looking at the comic wall.
Couple of chewing over points:
1) With superhero cartoons such as Static Shock, Teen Titans, and Batman that are very popular are kids not bothering to read because they'd rather watch?
2) I started comics around age 10, so did my friends, and we could read the entire line unsupervised. Looking over the shelves, I can't see many books I want to point a 10 year old to. Has the entry age for the comic reader risen to the point that by the time they are old enough to handle the material, they've already found other interests?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
(Further along these lines -- Julie Schwartz told me once upon a time that there was no issue number on the first Silver Age GREEN LANTERN because fans were not interested in "new" series, and wanted books with track records. How times change, huh?)
Seems more to me these days that readers want the "track record" of an established character COMBINED with a "new #1." Kind of having your cake and eating it, too.
You hit on a couple of key points here -- kids don't read, and if they did not enough of the material is appropriate.
It is a combination of a failure of society and the educational system (not instilling in kids a love of reading) and a failure of the industy (increasingly targeting the wrong audience).
When Stan Lee set about reinventing Marvel Comics in late 1960 he decided to do the kinds of comics he wanted to read -- but he did not do this thinking as a 38 year old married guy with a kid. He did it thinking as someone who wrote comics that were mostly for kids (8 to 15 or so) who he assumed were bright enough to understand what he was doing. He did not decide to write for other middle-aged husbands and fathers. Most of all, he did not decide to subvert the genre in order to get himself noticed by Hollywood.
The problem is, it's not just that the lunatics are running the asylum, it's that the most especially fuctup lunatics are running the asylum.
You know in a couple months or within a year a NU #1 will come along.
I remember as a kid I recognized the good artists or ones I liked actually and tried to follow books that had art I recognized. I remember thinking the "guy" who drew Iron Fist was really good and that "guy" who drew Daredevil #138 was good and that "guy" who drew Powerman #48 and Hulk Annual #7 and X-men 112 and 113 and Marvel Preview #11 was good..... It took me awhile to realize it was the same guy...
I recognized Jim Starlin's art and Mike Grells at that time as well as Jim Aparo, Ross Andru, etc...
I have to come out of my standard lurk mode to comment on this.
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New readers will almost inevitably be teens.
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This is one of the problems in the industry today. New readers should NOT be in their teens. New readers should be around 5 to 7 years old. That;s how it was back when superhero comics sold well and weren't just copyright holders and ads to get movie studios to by the rights to the characters.
Robert Kowalewski II (Login Renfairrob) Byrne Victim
Good Read
March 11 2004, 1:44 PM
I read JLA last night and enjoyed it immensely. Ordway's inks didn't seem as overpowering as the story progressed, except where it looked like he tried to "fix" the art. All in all it looked very much like a Byrne book and I can't wait for the next issue. By the way, does Hawkman 26 come out next week or the same week as Part 2 of John's arc on JLA?
I remember reading comics for a while before I started paying attention to issue numbers.
I actually started buying comics regularly in 1982, which would put me at 10, myself. But I remember reading Green Lantern, Batman, Archie, Star Wars and the Defenders from before then. Maybe two to three years earlier.
One of the weird habits I got myself into is I would read three or four comics a night before going to bed... but each until the next advertisement and the words "continued on the 2nd page" (or however it was phrased). Leaving the continuation for the next night. This led me to being a slow reader 'cause I'll stop after each chapter.
I just picked up JLA#94 today(I had a long, crappy day at work yesterday. Great start to your story arc, JB. I can't say I like the inking, but Your art(from what I've seen of the pencils) is fantasic.
I'm really getting into this(because of your story and art)...and I woudn't ever pick up the JLA, normally...I violently dislike them...Love the cartoon though...weird.
Just read JLA #94. Oh no! What has happened to the Atom?! Martian Manhunter seems to have lost contact with him! I MUST get the next issue to find out what happens next!
On another note, this was a really good issue. Jerry Ordway's inks look good and JB's pencils still shine through in my opinion. The script by Mr. Claremont is good as well. I like how Claremont had Robotman just say 'Bull!' That just seems so much like Robotman to me.
I guess I'll have to wait two weeks to find out what happens next. I wonder why Crucifer seems so intent on getting Faith...weird.
The notion that Superman's blood is so "filled with sunlight" it would kill or harm a vampire is, of course, preposterous. What harms a vampire is the purity of the sunlight, the idea being that sunlight is not "bad" like moonlight. And whatever courses thru Superman's veins it is not, by anyone's definition, pure sunlight!
Typical example of the over-literalization that some fans, alas, seem to think is "cool". JB
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The vamp+sun=Dustydeath would be for comicbook and Hollywood vampires only though...no true(mythological/folklore) Vampire would be harmed by the sun/sunlamp/etc. Don't get me wrong...I'm not correcting you, JB...I'm just stating trivia.
In SOME European folklore, vampires just keel over dead at the crow of a rooster(as the sun rises)and rise again at nightfall...although some can walk around in daylight(but aren't as strong as at night). even in Bram Stoker's novel vampires aren't harmed by daylight(Drac himself, takes a stroll around London in the daylight hours).
Clearly the whole "Superman's blood is filled with sunlight" idea is ludicrous, but I did have one nagging question about that scene . . .
Would Superman's vulnerability to magic extend to allowing his flesh to be pierced by a vampire's teeth? I never considered the mechanism of biting someone on the neck and drinking their blood to be in the realm of a vampire's "magic" but more the simple mechanical nature of how they retrieve the blood from their victims. Is there something about the mystical nature of vampires that compels Superman's skin to be pierced? I bet that's something Anne Rice never thought of.
Okay, so I'm nitpicking and this has probably been covered already.
I'm thinking that Superman's vulnerability to magic nullifies the effect of his powers towards magical items and creatures. Thus when a magical object or blast makes contact with him it penetrates any defenses he has.
Would Superman's vulnerability to magic extend to allowing his flesh to be pierced by a vampire's teeth?
****
Yup.
If you put on a pair of vampire teeth and go bite Superman, you will end up with 2 things: a pair of broken vampire teeth and an annoyed Superman.
But a vampire is a magical entity. This is an animated corpse we're talking about here, after all! The vampire's very existance is magical. If it were not, a vampire biting you would not turn you into another vampire. The magical elements of a vampire are a package deal -- it's the whole shebang -- and Superman, as we know, is vulnerable to magic.
I took my 8 year-old grandson with me last night to the local comicbook store to pick up JLA 94. It was my first new comicbook purchase in 17 years. It was his first trip to a comicbook store.
As I grabbed my copy of JLA 94 from the shelf, I told him he could pick whatever he wanted from the quarter bins. He had never read comicbooks before, he doesn't know DC from Marvel from Dark Horse from Image. He doesn't know what a hot title is, or who a hot artist is. I told him if he picked out any thing too mature or inappropriate for his age and he gladly put it back. "How about this one grampa? This one?"
As I was perusing the bins, he exitedly brought another one up to me. "This one looks really cool grampa!" X-Men: Hidden Years. What a proud grandpa I was!
He left the store with 20 comicbooks - almost all Marvel and DC titles. The three books on the top of the stack - the ones he was most anxious to read: X-Men: Hidden Years, Ghost Rider, and Lab Rats. (Yeah! Two Byrne books!)
The telling story will be in two weeks, when I bring him back with me to get JLA 95. What's he going to look for? More X-Men? More Marvel? More DC? More Byrne?
(And yes, I am way too young to have an 8 year-old grandson.)
