I was a big fan of Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol (and Kupperberg's before him) - Behind the 'gobbledy-gook', there were characters with real heart, and what seemed to me like an attempt to capture the excitement and alien feeling that those american silver age comics seemed to portray. (speaking as a UK resident - We would find US comics in musty old second-hand bookshops, normally in a stack under a table, hidden in the corner, normally while visiting strange seaside towns)
However, it doesn't bother me at all that those stories are 'out of continuity', though it would be a shame if plans for the trade paperback reprints of GMs work were skuppered.
To be honest, I probably won't be able to purchase the new series - due to space&money considerations, I simply can't collect too many titles - But I may order a copy from the Library, I imagine JB's approach to these characters will be enjoyable (though different).
I realise my opinions won't be the most popular on these boards, but I just wanted to say, as a Grant Morrison fan - I have no hard feelings!!!!
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 1:39 PM
Someone over on Newsaramicon said Doug Hazelwood was the new inker, and I dismissed it as idle rumor... but that does sort of look like his work, based on what I've seen of his stuff over Tom Grummett...
How much input did you have in selecting the inker? Did you give DC a list of those you would like to see on the book while DC also supplied you with their own list? And, this is probably a question you may not wish to answer, just how many inkers "tried out" for the book?
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 2:32 PM
Huh. Anonymously is an interesting way of handling the selection. Not a bad idea!
Not sure how this person knows, but some poster on another board supposedly said who the inker would be. If it's correct, it's a good choice, mainly since he's inked a penciller who's style is very influenced by your own.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 2:44 PM
The audition piece is really hypnotising. He really brought out the soul of the pencils. It helps that it was an excellent piece to begin with, but I find myself captivated by the inked piece.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
Where the "reboot furor" is concerned, I think there's a serious point being missed. I'm all for a DP reboot, but as a continuity-minded fan I'd like an in-universe explanation of how this reboot occurred.
For example, Crisis provided the backstory for all the DC reboots that followed it. It made very clear that where there used to be all these different DC universes, there would now only be one, and the characters in that one universe wouldn't necessarily be the same characters we'd come to know over the years. Granted, this last part didn't really become clear until the reboots themselves actually started, but once they started, everybody could point back to Crisis as the in-universe cause of the reboots. Man of Steel? Crisis. Batman Year One? Crisis. Wonder Woman? Crisis. Hawkworld? Crisis.
There's even an in-universe cause for Superman: Birthright -- namely, Superman's time-travel battles with the "Futuresmiths" in his monthly titles.
In summary, whether you love or hate the reboots that DC has done in the past (or is doing now), they've all generally come with some sort of universe-shaking or timeline-ripping event that has made the rebooting something "naturally expected" rather than something from just plain out of the blue.
The DP reboot, on the other hand, seems more along the lines of "just plain out of the blue", and while I say again that I'm all in favor of a reboot for this title, I do see problems with just introducing this reboot into today's continuity without some sort of accompanying explanation. (There's always hypertime, you know. Can't forget about hypertime.)
Will this breach of continuity keep me from picking up the book? Probably not -- my "wait for the trade" mentality will most likely do that, although I may have to suspend that mentality for Firestorm -- but it does dampen my interest for the book somewhat. I read New Teen Titans, and I read the New Doom Patrol until Morrison left, and while I can't say I have any particular fondness for those stories, those stories to me still represent "what happened" in the DC universe, and for "what happened" to be completely discarded without so much as a "zero hour" creates a paradox in my continuity-laced mind that I really don't know if I have the inclination to resolve. It's almost as if this contradictory version of the Doom Patrol, by being slammed into the DC universe without explanation, is forcing me to compare it against the Doom Patrol of the past, and that's already draining me of a lot of energy I think I would have rather spent enjoying the new book for itself and the "new" characters for themselves.
The sad thing is that, just like before with Spider-Man Chapter One -- another case of rebooting without an explanation -- public opinion is probably going to go wildly negative against JB, and that's a shame because just like before it's really the company's fault for not thinking things through.
In short, messing around with continuity is not a bad thing. Messing around with continuity without providing an explicit cause for said messing around, however, is a bad thing -- at least, it is to the continuity-minded reader.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 9:32 PM
...think of it as the reboot with the story yet to be told. It'll keep you coming back month after month.
Imean, if it's a reboot, there shouldn't be an explanation "in continuity". Right? I mean, Crisis is a great example...you can't explain a post-Crisis reboot using Crisis becaause Crisis never occurred due to the fact that Crisis occurred.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 10:24 PM
I don't care for the inks. The finished result looks too much like Byrne's pencils. The inker went out of his way to maintain the lines that JB put down, to keep the expression without changing it, and to be faithful to the intent of the pencils without placing his own stamp on what the final result "should" look like.
All Byrne is good for is to tell the story and arrange the placement of the details. I prefer an inker with a stronger hand, who's not afraid to change elements of the pencils to what he feels they should be, even though he wasn't hired to be the penciler/storyteller.
You picked the wrong guy, JB. No wonder they say your old stuff is better...
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 10:50 PM
"I don't care for the inks. The finished result looks too much like Byrne's pencils. The inker went out of his way to maintain the lines that JB put down, to keep the expression without changing it, and to be faithful to the intent of the pencils without placing his own stamp on what the final result "should" look like."
I think this is the first friggin' time I've EVER heard this used as an argument AGAINST an inker!
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 12 2004, 11:09 PM
This is a first time posting for me.
John-
I, like many of you, am looking forward to Doom Patrol (series #4) by John Byrne especially since the original members are returning. Like some of the other posts, I do not think this relaunch is similar to Perez's take on Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman was 'rebooted' from events in Crisis. I guess Batman was too. Doom Patrol does not have that luxury. I like continuity just as much as the next person, but I hope some things can be explained and then move forward.
1) Did the characters such as Celsius and the other members from the second series (Kupperberg & Lightle) cease to exist? Wasn't Celsius was once married to the Chief?
2) Will the Steve Dayton/Rita Farr/Gar Logan storyline be explained in terms of the new series? I know Beast Boy/Changeling is part of the Teen Titans series. I just hope that the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans stories guest starring Robotman will not be rendered moot continuity-wise.
Regardless, I am eagerly awaiting this series. I don't mind the companies bringing back characters that began in the sixties. I always liked this roster of the Doom Patrol over any other. After X-Men: Hidden Years, I was hoping that you would have created a Doom Patrol: Hidden Years-style series. This is the next best thing.
BTW (off topic), I do not understand why there needs to be another Superman origin revision (Superman: Birthright). I did not see any problem with what you did IMHO. Last question, I heard that your Superman origin in Man of Steel was going to have Lara travel to Earth with Kal-El. Was this true? Thanks.
Glen Brown: I don't care for the inks. The finished result looks too much like Byrne's pencils. The inker went out of his way to maintain the lines that JB put down, to keep the expression without changing it, and to be faithful to the intent of the pencils without placing his own stamp on what the final result "should" look like.
All Byrne is good for is to tell the story and arrange the placement of the details. I prefer an inker with a stronger hand, who's not afraid to change elements of the pencils to what he feels they should be, even though he wasn't hired to be the penciler/storyteller.
You picked the wrong guy, JB. No wonder they say your old stuff is better...
****************
Okay. I admit it. This one sailed over my head. Before I go off half-cocked, are you serious?
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 2:44 AM
*. . . what seemed to me like an attempt to capture the excitement and alien feeling that those american silver age comics seemed to portray.*
********
*Whatever I might say about the work of Grant Morrison, that is not a string of words I would ever put together in that connection!*
Just my two cents: i also think that Grant Morrison is very adept at hypercharging Silver Age concepts into something very much beyond the pale stuff many comics are today. His JLA is, in my opinion, a strong proof of his blend of his own larger-than-life-ideas and quite similar Silver-Age-concepts. Grandeur, thrill, childlike excitement... it's all there, only in a way that is so, fr lack of a better term, postmodern and energized that it would hardly be recognizable for a Silver Age afficionado, who might find Grant's work weird and sometimes silly. But imo, in many ways, he does exactly what comics did back then for THEIR audience for a modern audience grown up on MTV and console games and a hyperconsumerism (ohhh... big words ) world. Morrison is a very versatile, very serious writer and the fact that someone of his capabilities STILL does mainstream stuff like JLA, Animal Man or X-Men speaks volumes of his love for the genre... as opposed to Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis, who are quite outspoken about the fact that they despise spandex books (and still do them, maybe for the money, and do them ... in the case of Warren Ellis... pretty well).
...forgot to add the "Sarcasm On/Off" note. I was facetiously commenting on the difference between DP's Byrne-friendly inking style, compared to other heavier inking styles that obscure more of John's work.
I had no idea that anyone would take that post seriously...sheesh!
I'm not trying to disrespect you in any way, but.......
March 13 2004, 4:55 AM
Morrison is a very versatile, very serious writer and the fact that someone of his capabilities STILL does mainstream stuff like JLA, Animal Man or X-Men speaks volumes of his love for the genre
*****
Dude! It's cool that you like Morrison and all. But you may want to reread that remark before the rest of the East Coast wakes up! Read that segment again and think of how it could come off as a bit insulting. Hopefully it was unintentional.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 7:07 AM
Where the "reboot furor" is concerned, I think there's a serious point being missed. I'm all for a DP reboot, but as a continuity-minded fan I'd like an in-universe explanation of how this reboot occurred.
********
As I've said, the "explanation" for the DOOM PATROL reboot will be published the same month as the "explanations" of George's WONDER WOMAN and BATMAN: YEAR ONE.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 7:15 AM
Morrison is a very versatile, very serious writer and the fact that someone of his capabilities STILL does mainstream stuff like JLA, Animal Man or X-Men speaks volumes of his love for the genre.
*****
That reads a whole lot like you're saying he's basically slumming -- that there is a level of "capability" that sets a writer above such things as mainstream comics.
(I disagree with your comment on another level, in any case. I get no sense from Morrison's work that he has any "love for the genre". I get the same vibe I get from Moore -- a cold and calculated mixing of ingredients the writer knows the fans like, but to which the writer himself has no eviceral connection. Nostaligia without being nostalgic, as I have dubbed it.)
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 9:28 AM
It's cool Glenn. I thought you were kidding, but it was really hard to tell. I mean, the "old stuff" thread started out with sarcasm and I got it, but a few people didn't. This one was harder to discern, illustrating what I pointed out over there. It's hard to get sarcasm strictly from reading text, especially when it's so subtle it's nearly non-existant.
To me, Grant Morrison is a prime example of something JB once said in an interview I read online:
"Can I write good Mr. Fonebone stories, or can I use Mr. Fonebone to tell the kind of stories I want to tell."
The minute I read that line, Grant Morrison popped in my head. I think Morrison comes up with really fascinating concepts - I've really enjoyed some of his ideas conceptually - but then he just foists them onto characters and into stories where they don't belong, or aren't written into the plot very well. I think he's a great idea generator, but not the best writer in terms of storyline and plot.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 9:47 AM
A lot of writers do what I call "Shoehorn Stories" -- which is to say they start with the story, then look around for an opportunity to use it. First character(s) handed to them, they shoehorn in the story, whether it fits the characters or not.
I have had many story ideas come wafting into my brain over the years, and a good many of them I eventually got to use. Some I still have not found a proper place for, tho -- and therein lies the key. The stories that got used got used because an appropriate place to put them finally came along.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 1:24 PM
Y'know...I'm not entirely sure which logo I meant either. The only real exposure I have to "classic" DPatrol is via the first archive (the second one hasnt' shown up in the mail yet), and looking that over...there really isn't a distinct logo. So...chalk it up to a silly question brought on by large amounts of excitement.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 1:35 PM
I, myself, consider this one as the classic logo. Of course, it's probably because I first encountered it in the original Who's Who series.
Out of all the logos used since their return in the '70s, I liked the one that was on the '80s series (pre-Vertigo) best.
While it was good, I'd love to see one better than the one used for the last series. I think that the logo should allow for the use of two colors, to allow contrast. If I remember correctly, the last seies logo was one color.
This message has been edited by kossori on Mar 13, 2004 1:39 PM
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 1:56 PM
JB,
As I've said, the "explanation" for the DOOM PATROL reboot will be published the same month as the "explanations" of George's WONDER WOMAN and BATMAN: YEAR ONE.
The "explanation" for the Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Hawkman reboots from 1985 already exists (Crisis), just like the "explanation" for the Birthright reboot exists (Superman vs. Futuresmiths).
If there's no such "explanation" for the Doom Patrol reboot, it's okay just to say, "There's no such explanation." I'm not saying that there has to be one, only that for continuity-minded fans like myself it helps a great deal if there is one.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 2:13 PM
Here's the "unofficial" explanation of the Doom Patrol reboot (with JB's permission, of course...):
Waaaaay back at the dawn of time, ye, further back even... there was a being called Ooglin.
Ooglin decided that he would conquer the universe and he had to go to the future to do it.
In the course of his venture he ran into a time hiccup and was stranded on Danny the Street. While he was there he discovered how messed up the world was (with people with no bodies and scissor-people and such).
He decided that this world wasn't worth ruling, but rather for destruction and quickly set about to destroy it.
He turned Danny the Street into a massive black hole that absorbed everything in it's presence. Sensing something amiss, Lodestone came back to earth to investigate and was quickliy sucked into Danny-that-was.
Once every vestige of the present Doom Patrol was absorbed. The time-traveller Ooglin had planned to go back to his own time, but the black hole had left an imbalance in the time stream and was effecting the Doom Patrol in the '60s. He found the Doom Patrol just before they met Dayton or Gar.
He got trapped in the '60s trying to return to the dawn of time. Using the last amount of his power he caused a massive explosion to try to fling himself into the past but instead sent the Doom Patrol into the future, altering their physiology and erasing their memories.
Ooglin himself was tossed into another dimension and became known as the Beyonder.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 2:21 PM
As I've said, the "explanation" for the DOOM PATROL reboot will be published the same month as the "explanations" of George's WONDER WOMAN and BATMAN: YEAR ONE.
The "explanation" for the Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Hawkman reboots from 1985 already exists (Crisis). . .
*******
Please tell me where to find the scenes in CRISIS that showed how Diana was erased retroactively, so no one would remember her in George's first issue. Also how Alfred, Catwoman and Commissioner Gordon got new backstories. I think I missed those pages.
Also tell me where to find those parts of CRISIS that "explain" MAN OF STEEL. I would be very interest in seeing those, as MAN OF STEEL was not even in the works when CRISIS was done.
When I was younger, I cared a great deal about DC continuity, especially knowing it all. Earth-One, Earth-Two, Earth-X, Earth-S--I knew everything. Then, Crisis on Infinite Earths came along, and I just sort of gave up. Not angrily. I mean, all the stories I'd read, all the facts I'd accumulated weren't erased from my memory, but lots of things didn't match up. So, I just started going with the flow, I suppose.
I have no problem with a contemporary reboot of the Doom Patrol, just as I had no problem with the Wonder Woman and Hawkman reboots. (But I must admit, thinking about Hawkman continuity on occasion gave me a headache.)
I just sort of let the good wash over me, and I absorb it. The bad, I just ignore or forget.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 2:46 PM
Crisis was an excuse for those reboots, not an explanation. It was an opportunity to shake things up. Are you wanting an excuse for the Doom Patrol reboot?.. beyond DC deciding, Time for a reboot!
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 3:32 PM
Dave,
Crisis was an excuse for those reboots, not an explanation. It was an opportunity to shake things up. Are you wanting an excuse for the Doom Patrol reboot?.. beyond DC deciding, Time for a reboot!
Yes, thank you. That was exactly what I trying to say. No matter whether Crisis explicitly said, "I am Crisis, and you can use me as your excuse for rebooting characters," or not, that's the purpose Crisis served -- it was a way for readers to understand just how titles like MoS, Batman YO, Hawkworld, Emerald Dawn, and the new WW could exist in the DC universe and still be in continuity. I was curious to know if there were something similar which continuity-minded readers could seize upon as an excuse for the DP reboot.
Actually, now that I think about it, I suppose the whole "Superman vs. Futuresmiths" thing that undergirds Birthright could serve as that excuse. I haven't been following the Super-titles myself, and DC certainly hasn't been trumpeting them as anything time-altering beyond what affects the Super-titles themselves, but Superman is in JLA, after all, and since he seems to be "back to normal" -- i.e., non-"Godfall" -- in JLA #94, I guess the whole "Futuresmiths/Godfall" storyline has already happened by the time JLA #94 begins, which means JLA #94 is in "time's been altered; anything goes" territory, which in turn makes the timeline pliable enough to accomodate the DP reboot.
See? That wasn't so hard. (It would be nice if DC were to make the Super-titles' time-spanning adventures the official reason, though.)
The "explanation" for the Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Hawkman reboots from 1985 already exists (Crisis), just like the "explanation" for the Birthright reboot exists (Superman vs. Futuresmiths).>>
Crisis "explained" the reboots retroactively. Once people started asking for an explanation. There's nothing in the pages themselves that lead into the reboots. Superman and Batman were around for a year after Crisis with stories that involved their remembering the Crisis.
Wonder Woman suddenly appears in "the modern day" (isn't it odd that more people are bothered by this happening to The Doom Patrol, than to a major character like Diana?). Jason Todd has a new backstory.
Superman had the only legit reboot with everything starting from scratch. The others just sort of happened. And the Justice League history was still the same but with minor tweaks (no Wonder Woman or Batman or Superman in the early days).
Heck, you might as well say that Crisis is the reason for the Doom Patrol reboot. It would make as much sense as everything else.
<<If there's no such "explanation" for the Doom Patrol reboot, it's okay just to say, "There's no such explanation." I'm not saying that there has to be one, only that for continuity-minded fans like myself it helps a great deal if there is one.>>
I think you'll enjoy the comics more if you abandon the whole continuity-fixation. Back when the turnaround age for new readers was something like five years or less, this would be a non-issue. No one would care or even notice that Superman's origin is different due to Birthright because the readers weren't around (or alive) when Man of Steel came out.
And how many comics were sold per month back then?
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 4:47 PM
From JB: Please tell me where to find the scenes in CRISIS that showed how Diana was erased retroactively, so no one would remember her in George's first issue.
AND
When you combine where Crisis left Wonder Woman and the Amazons and then the final issue of "Legend of Wonder Woman" you have where the Silver Age Wonder Woman was removed from DC's history so that George's could be inserted.
Re: The "e;Official"e; DOOM PATROL Thread (Pt IV)
March 13 2004, 4:53 PM
When you combine where Crisis left Wonder Woman and the Amazons and then the final issue of "Legend of Wonder Woman" you have where the Silver Age Wonder Woman was removed from DC's history so that George's could be inserted.
******
Again. I must have missed the scenes where everyone on Earth had their memoris of Wonder Woman erased, and other characters were shuffled in to take her place in those memories.
When I was reading Crisis in the 1980's, I loved it, but I thought it ended incorrectly. I thought the DC heroes (and the acquired heroes) should have defeated the Anti-Monitor, and then, everything should've gone black. The final few pages of the final issue should've shown a rocket landing in a Kansas wheatfield, a couple being gunned down in front of their horrified young son, and a plane crashing on a mysterious, Grecian sort of island. Then, the next month, Superman no. 1, Batman no. 1, and Wonder Woman no. 1 appear -- with opening captions that read, "Ten years ago...", "Nine years ago...", and "Six years ago...", respectively.
) world. Morrison is a very versatile, very serious writer and the fact that someone of his capabilities STILL does mainstream stuff like JLA, Animal Man or X-Men speaks volumes of his love for the genre... as opposed to Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis, who are quite outspoken about the fact that they despise spandex books (and still do them, maybe for the money, and do them ... in the case of Warren Ellis... pretty well). 
AND 