Has anybody else "discovered" the show Big O on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim? I'm finding myself compelled to stay up until 1:00 pm these days just to catch the next episode (Note to self: "Discover" TiVo to replace ailing VCR next). If you haven't checked it out yet, Big O has been described as "Bruce Wayne meets giant anime robots" -- and what's not to like there?

Here's a bit more info:

http://www.ex.org/5.1/13-anime_bigo.html

And here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_(anime)

Note that the second link mentions that the plot is somewhat derived from the science fiction classic Metropolis. Regardless, this is Good Stuff -- the storylines are very engaging, and the animation is compellingly stylish. This is now one of my top-three TV shows (right up there with Justice League and Rurouni Kenshin).

You should check this one out, JB -- I'm sure Rog would enjoy the Megadeus (pronounced "Mega Deuce").



-- JCB

For you visual types:

While I've never checked out Big "O" (wow, that really doesn't sound right!), I love the Sunday Night Adult Swim, especially Aqua Teen Hungerforce.

Robert Green

dorothy and roger kick butt!

I'm a fan of anime (and aniation in general). I have watched the entire Big O series, and I have enjoyed most of the episodes. The only problem/complaint I had with the series was the last episode ,which had a WTF type of ending that left more questions then answers. The last episode, IMO, kind of ruined the entire show.

Rick are you talking about the ending to Season 1 or Season 2?

I can't comment on Season 2 (haven't seen it), but Season 1 (the first 13 episodes) ends on an obvious cliff hanger.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis
Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement

I'm talking about season 2.

BTW, the season 2/series finally will be reairing either this week or next week on Adult Swim at 1:00 am.

"Big O" is like Jack Kirby on acid. I kept catching disjointed episodes on Cartoon Network, couple of years ago, and picked up the first DVD release in the hope it would make more sense.

It didn't.

Dorothy is a cool character, tho.

Some cool trailers here:

http://www.paradigmcity.com/

Roger has some cool lines in the trailer:

"I don't care what kind of a monster you are, I'm not going to let you ruin this city."

"I feel that criminals should behave professionally."

"It's not like I pack a lunchbox full of missiles when I got to work."

GREAT stuff!



-- JCB

"Big O" is like Jack Kirby on acid. I kept catching disjointed episodes on Cartoon Network, couple of years ago, and picked up the first DVD release in the hope it would make more sense.

It didn't.

==============================

Yeah, but . . . Jack Kirby on acid -- how can you NOT continue to watch?!



I just ordered the first DVD release (volume 1, with the first four episodes). I kind of get the idea that it's not supposed to make sense in and of itself -- with season 2 starting soon, it seems like they're planning an ongoing mystery, building up to a "big reveal" (a big "oh!" perhaps?).

Anyway, Kirby on acid . . . must . . . stay . . . up to . . . watch . . . late-night . . . Adult Swim . . .



-- JCB

Yeah, but . . . Jack Kirby on acid -- how can you NOT continue to watch?!


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I guess because the vibe I get from it is that there is something being "lost in translation".

What if Bruce Wayne had a Giant Robot and a sort-of girlfriend robot and the whole thing was set in Fritz Lang's Metropolis transposed to the world of "The End of Summer" mixed with Asimov's robots. . . .

What if Bruce Wayne had a Giant Robot and a sort-of girlfriend robot and the whole thing was set in Fritz Lang's Metropolis transposed to the world of "The End of Summer" mixed with Asimov's robots. . . .

===================================



You're killing me here, JB -- TOO funny! Again, what's not to love?!



As for the "lost in translation" part, I can kind of see that, but not having seen all of Season 1 or Season 2, I'm still finding my curiousity piqued by what I have seen. It does seem derivative from several sources, but like the idea of lost memories itself, there seems to be something there . . . something new and different, perhaps.

At the very least, it's awfully darn stylish . . . kind of like the V-Rod of anime, based on what I've seen so far.

BTW, for those of you who have seen all of the episodes released so far, here is what appears to be a fairly in-depth analysis of all the episodes -- I haven't read it yet because I want to avoid spoilers to some degree, but the guy's intro sounds intriguing:

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So you've watched Big-O from start to finish, yet you're still at a complete loss concerning that whacked-out ending from out of left field in Act 26. Before you submit to rage at what may seem to be a cop-out of an ending at first glance, get yourself together and dig the truth out of this! Come on now, Schwarzwald would be disappointed.

Anyway, fret not, for here we will review the series from the beginning, taking note of anything worth mentioning and evaluate it in passing, with a more in-depth discussion about broader concepts presented at the conclusion. It might be a while before I complete the entire thing, but there's a lot of information already here. Sit down, get comfortable, and read on.

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Here's the link:

http://www.sixfortyfive.com/bigo/wtf/

Giant Kirby-on-acid robots -- again, I ask you, what's not to love?!



Gotta run -- Big O is on now!

-- JCB

Quote:_______

guess because the vibe I get from it is that there is something being "lost in translation".

What if Bruce Wayne had a Giant Robot and a sort-of girlfriend robot and the whole thing was set in Fritz Lang's Metropolis transposed to the world of "The End of Summer" mixed with Asimov's robots. . . .

End Quote:_____

You're missing out on most of the pretentiously surreal stuff then.

Let's see...there's an alphabet soup of The Prisoner, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, destiny vs. free will, the subjective nature of history/Orwellian distortions of the past, the eradication of memory, Rene Decartes and his questions about possibly being the plaything of a divine deceiver, and the whole "how can you be who you are if you don't know who you were" thing. (Roger decides to just "accept the role he was given" so I guess this could be a bit like the definition of Dharma given to Arjuna by Krishna in the Bagavad Ghita portion of the Mahabarata)

It seems to want to deal with some of the insecurities raised by Mammoru Oshi's Ghost in the Shell movie.

The last episode is a muddle that's even more odd than the end of Akira. They never quite spell out what all the flash backs mean, exactly what happened 40 years ago, or why the odd terminology like tomato or MegaDeus is used. It's all left up to the viewer's interpetation kind of like the last ten minutes of 2001. All I was able to figure out was that it had something to do with the writer's concept of what a memory is. I'm gonna assume that some nut(RoseWater Sr.) created a dystopia through exceptionally hideous means and the story is mainly about the impossible task of navigating through his twisted mind games and the people that this Sysifus inspired burden is forced upon.

The ambiguous end suggests that NONE of it is real that something entirely VIRTUAL has occured. Perhaps it's a game, or an experiment of some kind along the same lines as the one in Dark City. (Or as I mentioned above maybe it's a sort of high tech Hindu/Bhuddist fable about reincarnation, karma and duty where hungry ghosts combat illusion and attachment to material concerns by accepting the roles they find themselves in and yet refuse to believe in those roles so that the dream weakens and eventually they escape need, achieve enlightenment, and wake up into the REAL WORLD/Return into the substance of God. I dunno...)

Personally I liked the Anime movie version of Metropolis better than the Big O. It even did the now obligatory retro stuff better. Go Ray Charles! Osamu Tezuka is such a genius that he made a movie after he was dead just through sheer influence! He is truly the Japanese Walt Disney!

But I still like Big O if only because it has a psuedo-Queen anthem for an opening tune, some neat chacater designs and of course because it has funky giant robots beating the hell out of each other.

I liked the Anime movie version of Metropolis better. . .

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Aside from the Futuristic City Motif, that's almost -- almost -- apples and oranges. "Metropolis" at least makes a stab at a coherent, linear storyline (tho nothing to do with the Fritz Lang version). I thought it was quite an amazing piece of work, and was put off only by some of the more grotesque character designs.

There was also that running-in-syurp thing that seems to happen in so many Japanese animated films, but I am almost getting used to that.

I get this sense when I watch most of the Japanese animation that turns up on Cartoon Network and elsewhere. Especially if it is being played in the afternoons. "SG Gundam" is a current prime example. It's been turned into something kinda cute and whacky for American consumers, but there's just enough there to be able to tell the original Japanese version was much "darker".

Part of the problem lies in how American audiences have been trained to think of and view cartoons. It is the rare animated film that can break thru what we might call the Disney Barrier and do something with a bit more grit. Note how the superlative "Iron Giant" was poorly marketed and almost completely ignored. The Japanese product, with its strange mixing of realism and cartoon imagery (especially in the human characters) is almost always nudged into the "kiddie" realm, whether it was originally meant to be there or not.

And don't even get me started on "Sailor Moon"!!

This is why I act as an "anime snob" and as much as possible get subtitled productions. That way I don't deal with bad voice acting and lame translations (hopefully).

But even then, what you think is supposed to be darker is just... cutie but in Japanese with subtitles! Many a dissappointing story out there that builds up to a big, splashy anticlimax - Vision of Escaflowne is a beautiful example of this. Or the opposite, the cutsey light story that suddenly turns pitch black - Magic Knights Rayearth series 1.



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Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis
Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement

are the foreign cultural values that underlie the stories. Do any of you anime and manga fans feel you really understand the motivations of the characters ?

Of course. People are people. While occasionally there are some anime that deal with heavy Japanese culture stuff, for the most part it's universal. Good fiction always is.

I don't need to be Japanese to feel for Sailormoon when all her friends get killed in battle. I don't need to have attended school in Japan to understand how Arima and Yukino feel when they get called to the Principal's office about their low grades.

And yes, sometimes there are cultural stuff that may elude the casual viewer, like the significance of the "I'm back"/"Welcome home" exchange in the second episode of Evangelion, but nothing major. At least, that I'm aware of. I am however a major anime/manga fan, so perhaps there are things that the casual fans miss that I don't. In fact, there probably are lots of things...

And JB, I'd be interested to see your take on Sailormoon. I mean, you've proven your ability to handle teenagers, mythology, and cosmic battles. I know it's never going to happen, but do you think it'd be fun?

"And yes, sometimes there are cultural stuff that may elude the casual viewer, like the significance of the "I'm back"/"Welcome home" exchange in the second episode of Evangelion, but nothing major. "

One specific cultural feature I cannot relate to is the cult of death in anime. The measure of heroism is often about how much they are willing to die for their cause. So much so that even villains can end up as heroic in the end. I don't think there is a cultural equivalent in Western culture.

This is one of the ways that Buddism has strongly influenced Japanese culture.

In Western Culture death is the stopping point - you either cease to be or you go to be judged and given your final reward.

In Japanese Culture, the idea is that death is just a rest stop. You turn on the wheel, are born and die many times over many lives. How true you are to the path your walk is more important than life. How you die is more important than being dead.

Read Lone Wolf and Cub for more illustrations of this idea. The really twisted thing about LW&C is that by being true to the Assassin's road, Ogami Itto walks a path of redemption as long as he stays on the razor's edge. Wrap your head around that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis
Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement

Originally posted by Emery Calame:

You're missing out on most of the pretentiously surreal stuff then.

============================

I think THAT is what I like the best about Big O so far -- it's SO pretentiously surreal that it seems at once familiar and also completely new and alien, which mirrors the whole "city without a past, it's citizens' without memories" theme. Funny you should mention Dark City, because I've found myself getting a real Dark City vibe from all this (great movie, BTW). The whole "lost in translation" feeling almost adds to the overall sense of forgotten past / lost memories thing, like there's something intentionally lost in translation.

I've sensed that there are tons of intriguing theological undercurrents going on as well, but like much of the story, they seem to be elusively out of reach . . . or merely lost in translation.

Big O may be a true case of style over substance, but the style is just so darn titillating. As a white-faced, green-haired Jack Nickolson once said, "I don't know if it's art, but I like it!"



-- JCB [Still chuckling over JB's "Kirby on acid" analogy]

I never felt that heroic deaths were a Western/Eastern thing. I mean, the Doom Patrol died. Phoenix died. King Arthur died. Perhaps it's more that Japanese superheroic fantasies are more open to character death than American ones. Sailormoon dies, but you'd never see Wonder Woman die.. oh. wait...

"This is one of the ways that Buddism has strongly influenced Japanese culture.

In Western Culture death is the stopping point - you either cease to be or you go to be judged and given your final reward"

Sorry, I don't buy that. Buddhism is not an amoral religion - a person can't be a hero just because he's fanatic about what he believes is right. The roots of that value probably lies in Japan's feudal history.

I suspect the nearly unique attitudes toward death to be found in traditional Japanese culture have as much to do with geography as anything else. A finite amount of space with a constantly expanding population is going to develop some interesting notions about what we might call retroactive birth control.

" never felt that heroic deaths were a Western/Eastern thing. I mean, the Doom Patrol died. Phoenix died. King Arthur died. Perhaps it's more that Japanese superheroic fantasies are more open to character death than American ones. Sailormoon dies, but you'd never see Wonder Woman die.. oh. wait... "

Judas hung himself, but that never made him a hero.

Heroic western death is still a stopping point. It just means you'll go to heaven faster.

Heroic Eastern death is more complex and complicated and sometimes contradictory as multiple philosophies wove their way into the culture.

Rent the Hong Kong animated A Chinese Ghost Story for a literal depiction of death and rebirth (it's a fun flick anyway).

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Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis
Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement

So you're saying that Japanese stories put an emphasis on heroic sacrifice, which isn't found in Western storytelling, right?

And I'll give you that heroic sacrifice is more common in Eastern storytelling. But it isn't exclusive. Take that classic FF story, (was it "This Man, This Monster?") where the Thing Imposter gives up his life to save Reed. I mean, that's heroic sacrifice.

I don't want to get into a deep discussion here because there just isn't room to boil it down into soundbites.

My point is that Death in Eastern storytelling is neither Redemptive or Damnitive. It just is. This life ends, I'll get a new one based on how true I was to the path of my former life. That I live or die is unimportant. What I succeed or fail in is unimportant. If I sacrifice myself, it is so I can complete the path of my life. Nobility and heroism comes from following the path in the face of personal adversity.

Western storytelling has Death as the final gate. Death is the culmination of your life. Your one shot at the title. Noble sacrifice in a greater cause or for someone else is in similitude of the sacrifice of the Christ figure, the voluntary loss of self for a higher, diefied cause.

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Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis
Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement