"Marvel Comics and artist Dave Cockrum have reached an agreement on a contract that will allow Marvel to continue to fully own the many characters Cockrum created for the company, while compensating Cockrum for his years of service and the seminal characters he created. In an undisclosed agreement today, author Clifford Meth accepted a deal for Dave Cockrum that, combined with other industry events, will help get the Cockrum family back on its feet after months of financial burdens resulting from Cockrum's hospitalization." (Go to Silver Bullet Comic Books to real the whole article)
This is GREAT news for Dave and his family. I know many on this board haven't had nice things to say about Marvel lately, and I am not going to try and figure out the reasons behind Marvel decision to settle with Dave. I just want to say "Thanks Marvel". Nuff' said.
Even though Marvel has agreed to help out Dave Cockrum, I ask everyone to still buy at least one copy of the Dave Cockrum Tribute Book. here is the link again to where to buy it.
This is great news to hear and I'm sure the peace of mind will aid Dave in his recovery.
It probably wouldn't have looked to good for Marvel to have headlines like "Marvel makes millions off of X-Men while co-creator faces financial hardship due to illness."
Marvel would not have settled unless Cockrum had a strong case. Marvel is probably getting a far better deal than if Cockrum were healthy right now and ready for a legal fight (or were they to face Cockrum's estate later on.)
This message has been edited by RodOdom on Mar 17, 2004 9:49 PM
This is in NO way meant to be an anti-Cockrum post, but how many characters did he really create for Marvel? Unless I'm mistaken, there's just Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler, plus The Shi'ar as a supporting cast. Thunderbird, too, but he didn't last long. They are fine characters of course, but were those 3 alone really responsible for the resurgance of X-Men popularity? To me this seems to be a case of where creation by committee muddies the waters a bit. What about Len Wein's contribution? Or Chris Claremont's, since he started writing the characters from Day 2? Plus, I'd say Wolverine's been leading the X-Men's popularity for a long time now, who didn't become prominent until JB came along. So what about him?
As others have said, this is an interesting can of worms being opened.
Cockrum created Nightcrawler before bringing him to Marvel, didn't he? I don't know how that affects the work-for-hire agreement.
It has always bothered me that the creators of Bishop and Cable got rich while the creators of Wolverine, Storm, and Nightcrawler got diddly. Is there justice in this world?
"This is in NO way meant to be an anti-Cockrum post, but how many characters did he really create for Marvel? Unless I'm mistaken, there's just Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler, plus The Shi'ar as a supporting cast. Thunderbird, too, but he didn't last long. They are fine characters of course, but were those 3 alone really responsible for the resurgance of X-Men popularity? To me this seems to be a case of where creation by committee muddies the waters a bit. What about Len Wein's contribution? Or Chris Claremont's, since he started writing the characters from Day 2? Plus, I'd say Wolverine's been leading the X-Men's popularity for a long time now, who didn't become prominent until JB came along. So what about him?"
Don't forget the StarJammers and the Imperial Guard.
From what I've heard, the work-made-for-hire provisions pertaining to copyright were written without consideration of how a creation could be exploited in mass media. They weren't created in order to allow corporations to profit off of the creativity of individuals without properly compensating those creators.
Marvel didn't "give" Dave anything that he didn't deserve and shouldn't have received prior to becoming ill. But I'm glad that he's getting something from them and hopefully its not too little, too late.
The Marvelous Mike N. (Login ArgentFox) Byrne Victim
Re: Marvel, Cockrum, Agree to Settlement
March 17 2004, 10:47 PM
I don't think any more worms are being produced than when Marvel went through the creator ownership fiasco that ended with the founding of Image.
I'm just glad that they stepped up to help him out at all.
Now everyone needs to buy the Tribute Book because whatever help Marvel is giving it isn't going to be enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
I just noticed that JB is missing from the list of pros participating in the Cockrum tribute book, which is either sloppy reporting or just plain rude. As we all know, JB followed Cockrum on X-MEN, and JB did more with the toys Cockrum created than almost anyone in the business. He certainly deserved to be listed before Joe Quesada.
"This is in NO way meant to be an anti-Cockrum post, but how many characters did he really create for Marvel? Unless I'm mistaken, there's just Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler, plus The Shi'ar as a supporting cast. Thunderbird, too, but he didn't last long."
And this is in NO way meant to bash you. I'm just saying that, because online, responses can sometimes "sound" harsher than intended!
Just Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler? Even if Cockrum didn't have a hand in developing other characters (Phoenix, for one), these three alone represent a substantial amount of revenue. They've been in several animated series, they've been made into action figures, they're in video games. Storm was in two successful films, with Colossus and Nightcrawler joining her for the second. Not to mention various spinoff titles and mini-series in which these characters have starred.
I don't know the details of the settlement/case, but regardless, while they may not be solely responsible for the success of the X-Men comic, these three characters alone represent very recognizable (even to the lay public) commodities (I was looking for a less cold word there, but there it is).
Whether a creator created one character or a thousand doesn't matter...
"Just Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler? Even if Cockrum didn't have a hand in developing other characters (Phoenix, for one), these three alone represent a substantial amount of revenue. They've been in several animated series, they've been made into action figures, they're in video games. Storm was in two successful films, with Colossus and Nightcrawler joining her for the second. Not to mention various spinoff titles and mini-series in which these characters have starred.
I don't know the details of the settlement/case, but regardless, while they may not be solely responsible for the success of the X-Men comic, these three characters alone represent very recognizable (even to the lay public) commodities (I was looking for a less cold word there, but there it is).
Whether a creator created one character or a thousand doesn't matter..."
I didn't mean "just" to imply that they were insignificant characters. I meant that the press release indicated "many" characters that he created, but I see 3 primary characters. Yes I forgot about the Starjammers, but once Cockrum left the book they barely got any 'airtime". The Imperial Guard is kind of hard to give sole credit to him, since there were admitted analogues for the Legion of Super-Heroes.
As far as mass media, Colossus and Nightcrawler haven't gotten as much attention either. Both were absent as primary characters on the 90's X-Men series, and Colossus has barely been featured in more than cameos in anything outside of comics. I would grant that Storm is another story.
As far as Phoenix, its hard to measure how much credit goes to Cockrum for that. If she were a new character, as opposed to a new persona of the pre-existing Marvel Girl, I suspect she would not have been as popular as she was.
Again I didn't mean to imply that I felt that the above characters were not worthy of compensation. Dave is my favorite X-Men artist above all else. And I think it's nice that Marvel is helping him out in his time of need, since he did play a significant role in turning the X-Men around. But my point is that he was not the only one, and if this is all being done strictly for legal reasons, then I feel this may set a precedent, and as such the other creators who played significant role in Marvel Comics' sales are just as worthy.
I can remember as far back as the early 80s reading interviews with Cockrum that demonstrated that he maintained a voluminous sketchbook of character ideas and designs and that, in fact, what he did for X-Men, Imperial Guard, Starjammers, LSH, all of them, was go to that sketchbook when given the assignment and run characters by the writer or editors. All he had to do was produce those sketches and evidence that they predated the work-for-hire (it's not really that simple, but for brevity's sake...)
Similarly, quite a bit ATER Action Comics #1 was published, Siegel and Shuster signed a "transfer of copyright" arrangement with DC because Superman had been "created" before DC bought their work, meaning his creation had not been a work-for-hire, the arrangment described above sounds like a transfer of copyright agreement whereby they've financially accorded with Cockrum retroactively and purchased the characters and designs full out.
I have mixed feelings about this. I'm very happy for Dave Cockrum and his family, and the fact that he seems to be getting better every day. It's just that m****l's timing could have been better.If this has been in the works for a while, then great, but if it's just done for publicity, so they will look like the good guys, then for shame.
john woods
this is great news- perhaps the kirby estate will get a few bucks now.
The Marvelous Mike N. (Login ArgentFox) Byrne Victim
Re: Marvel, Cockrum, Agree to Settlement
March 18 2004, 1:50 AM
Marvel basically HAD to settle, Neal Adams hadn't even started playing hardball with the amount of outside pressure he could have brought to bear. Right now it only stayed inside the industry, but they were ready to take this to the wall - National Press, the Talk Show circuit, even getting volunteers to picket Marvel's offices. Clifford Meth was ready to do all of that back in February according to one of his columns. He said that Adams was more patient than he was.
If Marvel had allowed the public campaign to go forward by their inaction they would have come off looking so bad in the public eye it could have poisoned the Spider-Man 2 opening and other potential loss of $$$, not to mention what message it would have sent to their employees.
And then there would be the lawsuit and whatnot. Not good when Dave needs the help in getting better now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
"But my point is that he was not the only one, and if this is all being done strictly for legal reasons, then I feel this may set a precedent, and as such the other creators who played significant role in Marvel Comics' sales are just as worthy."
Cockrum also co-created Mystique, I believe. And as the first person to draw Wolverine without a mask, he designed his distinctive hairstyle and look, which is a big part of the character now. Cockrum creations were a substantial part of the X-Men films, which made a ton of money for Marvel.
As for the other creators... I read an interview with Neal Adams where he said Chris Claremont does get some kind of creator compensation for X-Men already. No details about the particulars were given.
As for whether this will set a precedent, I doubt it. This deal with Cockrum was done purely due to the combination of Cockrum's illness and the upcoming X-Men 3. Can you imagine the bad publicity if the general media picked up on the story of "poverty-stricken X-Men creator languishes in hospital bed", right when the movie was released? Marvel is doing this solely to avoid bad publicity. They might also have been slightly more fearful of a lawsuit, since Cockrum (unlike other creators) can clearly prove Nightcrawler was NOT created work-for-hire for Marvel.
You have some valid points there. I forgot that he designed Logan's face for one, though that again falls under creation-by-committee. And it is public knowledge that he created Nightcrawler to be a Legion character, so this could definitely be interesting.
Bottom line, I'm happy for Dave. But I think several new lawsuits are right around the corner.....
vv
The Marvelous Mike N. (Login ArgentFox) Byrne Victim
Re: Marvel, Cockrum, Agree to Settlement
March 18 2004, 2:18 AM
Precedent was already set. This just extends the cut-off date to pre-1979 works. And there are supposed to be proofs that these characters existed in substantial form before the work was commissioned. This is not a bell-weather case for the industry as I see it.
I'm sure JB can tell us every gory detail if he wishes to get into this discussion and set us all straight on the pertenant facts of the matter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
Cockrum didn't win a lawsuit, nor even get to the point of filing suit against Marvel at all, so there is no legal precedent here. I think it was Marvel's fear of bad publicity, rather than their fear of lawsuits, that sparked their actions.
Other creators are not going to have the same leverage Dave did by dint of his illness, which would have made him a very sympathetic figure if he took his story to the mass media. So I don't think this will necessarily inspire others to file lawsuits... Marvel prevailed against Marv Wolfman in court, and I'm sure they will determinedly fight any future lawsuits by anyone else, confident they can win those also with their superior financial resources.
This really is just similar to the deal Warner Communications made with Siegel and Shuster in the 70s to avoid bad publicity around the Superman movie. That didn't spark an outbreak of lawsuits by other creators, and I don't think this will either.
The work-for-hire angle is interesting, though. Wouldn't it be funny if DC sued Marvel for the rights to Nightcrawler, claiming they owned him because Cockrum created him work for hire for them?
The creators of Cable were Rob Liefeld and Louise Simonson. Weezy ain't rich like RObbie. Liefeld became Rich because of his work at Image, not from his Marvel work, though he received a nice royalty on the character for a few years. He also wouldn't be making that kind of money now or a few years prior to the explosion of the industry.
the creator of Bishop is Whilce Portacio, scripted by John Byrne in the beginning mind you, did not become rich because of any of his work. By the time Wetworks started, the implosion had begun and he had already sold the characters to Jim Lee's Wildstorm imprint. Whilce struggled to help pay for his sister's medical bills during her battle with Lupus. Yes he made a nice sum of money, but this is a time when even Dan Fraga was making triple digits as an artist.
Y'know, at least Cockrum isn't going to die poor like the Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.
Siegel and Shuster didn't die poor. As I mentioned, Neal Adams helped them negotiate a pension from DC in the late 70s. Quite similar to Dave Cockrum's situation.
I don't know the exact details of this, but I would imagine (as some have noted) that it hinges on Dave having created most of the characters he used at Marvel long before he started working there. Dave is a character-generating machine, and has piles of sketchbooks full of all kinds of wonderful characters.
Jerry seigel's estate was able to use the creation of Superman happening before he and Shuster worked for National Periodicals to show that it was not "work made for hire".
Wolfman, on the other hand, claimed that he created Blade before working for Marvel, but was not able to offer any evidence to support the claim. Instead, Marvel's lawyers had quotes from Woflman in which he specifically said he created Blade for TOMB OF DRACULA.
And therein lies the difference.
This is good news indeed, for Dave. My only concern is that it does not inspire a bunch of shysters to launch empty suits against Marvel and DC in the hopes the companies will "settle out of court".
I just noticed that JB is missing from the list of pros participating in the Cockrum tribute book, which is either sloppy reporting or just plain rude.
******
A "clerical error" perhaps. You've all seen the piece I did for the book*, and the publishers should have had the copy I sent them for at least a week now.
I'm sure "clerical error" is the explanation. My name was initially missed off the list when Alan Davis' was added even though we contributed the same piece.
"It has always bothered me that the creators of Bishop and Cable got rich while the creators of Wolverine, Storm, and Nightcrawler got diddly. Is there justice in this world?"
What's wrong with getting Diddly? Most people would kill to get their hands on me.
Not looking to stir a sh*tstorm, here, but didn't you create most of Alpha Flight before working at Marvel?
************
Yes, but I can only prove it for Snowbird.
The Mystical Mike N. (Login ArgentFox) Byrne Victim
Re: Marvel, Cockrum, Agree to Settlement
March 18 2004, 2:48 PM
What constitutes proof in the eyes of those who decide on such things? Apart from a signed, dated, and notarized sketch and description of the character that is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
What constitutes proof in the eyes of those who decide on such things? Apart from a signed, dated, and notarized sketch and description of the character that is.
********
Well, that would be the best, obviously! Witnesses are also good. In the case of the Wolfman trial, for instance, Marvin made all kinds of claims for which he could present no witnesses, while Marvel had a block long line of witnesses prepared to state the opposite.
I would be able to make a claim on Snowbird -- because of the big, multimillion dollar "Snowbird" movie that's in the works* -- because of prior publication.
*Starring Anne Murray!!
This message has been edited by johnbyrne on Mar 18, 2004 2:52 PM
This is wishful thinking, but when the time comes, should JB return to Marvel. I'd like to see a solo limited or ongoing series with Snowbird. I know that she was killed off during Bill Mantlo's run on AF, vol. 1, But, I believe she was resurrected during Erik Larsen's brief run of Wolverine. Which, I didn't follow. Anyway, I still think that Snowbird has potential.
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