The cover of this ish show superman wielding Mjolnir. Shouldn't his outfit have changed? Now, perhaps my memory or understanding of how wielding the magic hammer works is wrong, but I got this impression. I seem to recall that everyone who holds Mjolnir is garbed in a variant of Thor's outfit....This also confused me years ago when Captain America (called "The Captain" at the time) held Mjolnir and his outfit didn't change. Any explanations on this....
The cover of this ish show superman wielding Mjolnir. Shouldn't his outfit have changed?
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Doesn't the transformation only come with the transformation of the hammer itself? If Superman thumped the cane he would, literally, change into Thor. But if he just holds the hammer, there would not be a transformantion.
The clouds of confusion have parted. Thanks John that makes sense. Even the Cap transformation was him just picking up the hammer and not thumping the cane.
and yes Bob, I agree. George is awesome....Can't wait to get home and read my "stash" from this week.
The panel is cool, but I didn't really do more than scan the issue so I couldn't tell you if there was anything more to it than coolness behind it.
According to the lore, Mjolnir can be wielded by anyone deemed worthy. Captain America was able to pick it up, much to Thor's amazement, so I don't see how Superman wouldn't rate.
The cover with Superman wielding Thor's Hammer and Cap's shield was pretty dead on for me.
Edit: Picking up Thor's hammer and picking up Donald Blake's walking stick are two different things. The walking stick will imbue you with the power of Thor, which is how Beta Ray Bill became Beta Ray Thor. But an already transformed Mjolnir is just an Enchanted Hammer, not the key to the power of Thor.
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Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience
And Experience comes from... Bad Judgement
This message has been edited by ArgentFox on Mar 31, 2004 4:53 PM
I may be talking out my ass here, but I thought that particular enchantment removed from the hammer. This way Thor wouldn't end up in the situation he got in with Beta Ray Bill again with someone else. This would also make it where only Thor, Odin, and maybe a couple of other Asgardian's could even lift the hammer.
I wasn't really "into" the story. Too much going on, not enough description. The art was great, of course, but this is one of the few time where I think the story should have been 6 issues, rather than four.
The Thor's Hammer/Superman thing wasn't explained very well, nor the Flash/Hawkeye thing.
"The only artists I have ever known, who are personally delightful, are bad artists. Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are."--Lord Henry Wotton
The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde
I may be talking out my ass here, but I thought that particular enchantment removed from the hammer.
It may have been removed at one time, but it was back by the time Jurgens took over after Heroes Reborn with THOR #1. One wouldn't know it recently, however, as THOR has been in "What If..." land for the last two years of publication.
I hope Mr. Perez was well compensated for this series. I was completely blown away. The density of the detail was so great on each and every page and panel I thought the book was going to collapse into a black hole.
Matt:It may have been removed at one time, but it was back by the time Jurgens took over after Heroes Reborn with THOR #1. One wouldn't know it recently, however, as THOR has been in "What If..." land for the last two years of publication.
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One would have to know it recently, because a big point of the storyline is that Lord Thor isn't worthy to lift Mjolnir.
One would have to know it recently, because a big point of the storyline is that Lord Thor isn't worthy to lift Mjolnir.
Which has nothing to do with changing into the persona of Thor, which is how this thread started. More to the point, the hammer as it stands in recent issues of THOR has nothing to do with changing into the guise of the Thunder God as Thor has been seperated from it for over a century.
Who here reading this thread reads THOR? I do, obviously, but I'm curious as to the readership of the other board members.
Matt:Re: Which has nothing to do with changing into the persona of Thor, which is how this thread started. More to the point, the hammer as it stands in recent issues of THOR has nothing to do with changing into the guise of the Thunder God as Thor has been seperated from it for over a century.
Who here reading this thread reads THOR? I do, obviously, but I'm curious as to the readership of the other board members.
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Apparently you haven't read the last few issues, as Thor's son has possession of Mjolnir now, which has EVERYTHING to do with how this thread started: Magni weilding the hammer just as Superman did in Avengers/JLA #4.
I'm sticking around till Jurgens finishes (about two more months). With the next team starting off with a tie-in to Bendis' Avengers I have a real good jumping-off point. I'll keep an eye on things to see if I'm missing anything and may start picking it up off the stands, but Bendis on Avengers puts the final nail in the coffin of a lot of Marvel books that were always on my preorder list.
Steve Rogers didn't become a quasi-Thor when he lifted the hammer either. He was just able to lift the hammer. It was a while ago, but I don't think he gained Thor's power either. He retained his same costume (He was The Captain at the time.) Superman being able to hold the hammer was probably the same thing.
Although, aside from the different makeup of both the Marvel and DC Universes playing havok with certain rules, I couldn't see why Superman of all people couldn't lift Thor's hammer. But then again, I haven't read Superman in years, so there might be something in his personality or motivations that made him unworthy.
If I remember right, in Journey into Mystery #83, the hammer said on it "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." This worthiness was what allowed Beta-Ray Bill to turn into the thunder god, as well as (the Odin-created sham called) Don Blake.
The reason that Superman was not able to lift Thor's hammer in the end was, according to Thor, part of Odin's enchantment. And I quote: "My father is stern, Superman, but not stupid. A very few worthies have been allowed to overcome the spell, in desperate hours."
That way, although a few can in fact lift the hammer at certain times only, only one may OWN it.
I’ve gotta concur with Lukash. At a time when just about every comic book story out there (even the good ones) is being milked waaaaaaaay beyond its natural length, this is one of those rare instances when the mini-series actually felt too crammed. Not that that’s entirely a bad thing, obviously, since a catchy, one-minute-thirty-second pop song is still preferable to a never ending 12-minute remix, but it wouldn’t have bothered me at all to see this issue go for two more issues, or at least one. (Then again, the effort might have permanently crippled George’s hand, so maybe it’s just as well!) My favorite moment from #4 is when some superhero ally I can’t remember right now yells out “Captain Marvel, look out!” and both Shazam and Mar-vell yell out, “Thanks!” (or something to that effect). As for the hammer question, perhaps Odin was the original Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (after all, he literally has just one eye!), and decided in his near-infinite wisdom that Superman would look kinda goofy in Norse regalia since it seems to only really work with blonds.
I read Thor. Enjoying it overall, but I think we're at the point where the current storyline's been dragging on for a little bit too long. Planning on sticking around for Oeming's storyline. After that depends on creative team. (My decision might also be somewhat influenced by whether or not the rumor that they're restarting the series again is true.)
It reminds me of something I read in Asimov -- there is no such thing as two: there may be none of a thing; there may be one of a thing, a unique individual; but if there is more than one, there aren't two, but rather an infinite number.
Walter Simonson came up with a great idea for a story in which there was one other being other than Thor worthy enough to lift Mjolnir. So far so good. But then somebody had to try to make it two and now everybody can lift it or at least should be able to lift it or explain to everyone who thinks he's as worthy as Beta Ray Bill, Captain America, Superman, etc. to do so. Argh! Let a good story alone and come up with your own idea!
SPOILERS
I thought JLA-Avengers was an ungainly mess. 90% of the story is concerned with breaking through this barrier and then when they finally do, bam, Kronos zaps everybody and only loses because TNT is enough to disrupt the most powerful cosmic forces in existence. You really think we needed extra issues for this? They could've (read: should've) done this in half the space!
Aside from Kurt evening out the whole Superman vs Thor debacle, which he did nicely, a couple different ways in the issue, perhaps when trying to get into Odin's mindset as to who's worthy, I think the one neccesary yet unfortunate blemish on Supermans record was the execution of Zod and company and more to the point, the fallout afterwards.
Also......SPOILER
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Cap taking out Prometheus and Batman taking out Taskmaster, Batroc and stuff like that.
Now, for those here that say it should have been 6 issues, what are you, nuts!?!? Good lord, do ya wanna KILL George? The battle WAS jam packed and perhaps the climax was a bit thin compared to the rest of the series but c'mon! The downtime moments while they prepare? This could not have been done any better than this, IMHO.
For quite some time, my favorite comic "stories have been, in no real order, The Coming of Galactus, The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come, Marvels and Watchmen. The Killing Joke came next but certain elements kept it just out of the top five. JLA/Avengers must now boot somebody out. I'm thinkin' Watchmen only because I often gravitate toward the familar heroes and as great a story as it was, I was never an avid fan of even the Charleton-type heroes depicted therein. I may have to change things to a top ten soon.....I said it before and I'll say it again, after reading this series, it would be simpler than ever before to stop reading comics as this was really the ultimate superhero story in many ways. Isn't George "retiring" from drawing superheroes after this? It would be a good time, because i don't see any way for him to top it. -Rick
Isn't George "retiring" from drawing superheroes after this? It would be a good time, because i don't see any way for him to top it. -Rick
Technically, he was, since this was supposed to be his last non-Crossgen book. However, now that he's no longer with Crossgen, he can do whatever he wants. His next project is a two issue Sojourn/Lady Death mini, but after that he's going to be finishing up a Teen Titans OGN that he and Marv Wolfman started up a few years ago.
Though I generally like Perez's work, I'm not very excited about it on this one (or any of these mega-books). His compositions are cluttered to the point of illegibility. I don't think every panel can be filled with such deep-focus detail and still work. I would contrast Pacheco's work on Avernger Forever as a "crowd" book that works.
I hope Mr. Perez was well compensated for this series.
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Careful! Therein lies one of the ultimate slippery slopes -- do we pay by the amount of work, or by the page? And if the former, who makes the distinction? "This page has less on it than this page!"
Far too easy for an unscrupulous publisher -- yes, a redundancy, I know -- to pick someone like George as the top rate, and slash everyone else's rates accordingly.
Or do you think Frank Miller should be paid about a quarter (or less) of what George is paid?
This raises an interesting question, JB: who determines page rates? Is it the publisher or the artist? Does this depend on the seniority/track record of the artist? (By which I mean: a wet-behind-the-ears new guy gets what the publisher wants to pay him and likes it, and a seasoned veteran who has a few thousand pages under his pencil has more clout when negotiating a page rate.)
Though the version I posted is actually the full size, it's just shrunk to 700 pixels width through HTML so most people won't get the horizontal scroll bars. But if you download from what I posted, I think it will come down as 1000 pixels wide.
Current Topic - Avengers/JLA4-cover costume confusion....
