I've always been curious. Since you worked at M****L under Shooter, and thereafter. You might offer an interesting perspective to this thought.
Supposing he had remained at M****L through the 80's and into the 90's. How do you think the situation with the "Superstar" artists situation of the late 80's i.e. Mcfarlane, Liefeld, Lee...etc would have gone at Marvel with Shooter as Editor in Chief.
From interviews of various creators, I've always thought they would not have been elevated to the level they rose to.
To put simply: do you think they would have risen as high as they did with Shooter as Editor in Chief.
I hope that all made some sense. If not I can try to clarify.
Taking an educated guess, I would say we'd be a lot healthier than we are now, but still not where we were before the Speculator Boom.
The market was shrinking before the Image Explosion, but not suicidally so. FF was selling around 250,000 per month. ALPHA FLIGHT 1, in those pre-speculator days, did around 500,000 and then the regular run settled to a comfortable 300,000. X-MEN (the one and only) was selling around 400,000. Today, you could probably lop a third off those numbers, but that would still leave most books selling about twice what they are now.
The madness of the Speculator Boom drove away all but the most devoted readers. When the bubble burst, we did not drop back to pre-Boom levels, we dropped far, far below them.
It almost sounds as though M****L, swung the pendulum the other way after Shooter left. If Shooter was "heavy handed" during his tenure there, then it sounds as though his successors went to the other extreme thereby bringing in certain artists who might not have made it otherwise, and hyping them to superstar status.
With Shooter, the books were almost always character-
driven, emphasis on CHARACTER.
After Shooter, The ARTISTS and WRITERS became the
emphasis at the expense of the characters...
The fans caused the explosion and subsequent implosion...nobody else. Both the hardcore collectors and the transfers from the bombed out baseball card market contributed. If we didn't buy all 15 polybagged versions of a comic with holofoil covers and "exclusive" trading cards, then M and DC wouldn't have kept selling crap for us to buy. We made 'em fat,kept feeding 'em, and then left 'em to starve once the market imploded. Now, we have companies a little leaner, a little meaner, and a little too quick to pull the trigger at times.
"The only artists I have ever known, who are personally delightful, are bad artists. Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are."--Lord Henry Wotton
The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde
The fans caused the explosion and subsequent implosion...nobody else. Both the hardcore collectors and the transfers from the bombed out baseball card market contributed.
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Those were not "fans". They were collectors. They were speculators. The fans were the ones who came back, week after week, no matter how much shit we threw at them, because they loved the characters , because they wanted to read the stories , not because their heads were full of fever dreams about what the books were going to be "worth".
Fans care about comics. The people who caused the speculator boom and subsequent implosion, be they buyers, sellers, or publishers (or people working for publishers) did not. They only cared about the money.
Seems like I spent a thousand years asking if no one at Marvel or DC had ever heard the story of the goose that laid the golden egg.
It wasn't that long, of course -- but I'm still convinced almost no one had.
I will concede the "fan" point. Let me replace that term with "the buyers."
"The only artists I have ever known, who are personally delightful, are bad artists. Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are."--Lord Henry Wotton
The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde
During in the mid-90s, I began to become cynical with Marvel and the speculators. Honestly, I still didn't drop all Marvel titles completely. But, I started buying more independent books by Dark Horse Comics (Nextmen, Comic's Greatest World), Valiant, Malibu/Ultraverse, Defiant, and even Image Comics. I'll take some of the blame for buying some of the derivative crap that was being published back in the 90s', but, the likes of Ron Perleman, Carl Ichan, and the corporate leeches, who got involved in the industry should take the majority of the blame.
I just remember buying a few issue of Dr. Strange where all the characters were not completely drawn, had no fingers on their hands, Wong turned on Dr. Strange, and Wong's girlfriend was undead. Why did I do that? I think mainly because I had faith that the quality M was putting out would turn around fairy soon. Well, I guess it didn't.
I still like those Comic's Greatest World comics. Pretty spiffy characters IMO.
"The only artists I have ever known, who are personally delightful, are bad artists. Good artists exist simply in what they make, and consequently are perfectly uninteresting in what they are."--Lord Henry Wotton
The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde
1) SECRET WARS II
2) JB leaving FANTASTIC FOUR
3) the explosion of X-MEN spin-off books
4) MUTANT MASSACRE and FALL OF THE MUTANTS
5) the annual crossovers
Oh sure, there were many people who were buying foil covers by the heap, but I think it happened well before Image.
Notice how the price of comics soared once Perelmann (sp?) took over, and "special events" were mandatory.
I think it was more the idea that you could no longer buy the entire line of Marvel or DC for a small amount of money, and the reliance on/move to the direct market that affected things the most. The Image boys were just the bottom line IIRC, with many, many, many, many, many, many broken promises; probably in the first months more the industry knew in its entire life at the time.
It seems illogical to me that anyone would buy "#1's" thinking they would make cash. Remember, the more you have of something, the less one of them is worth.
The rest is a practically UNDEFINED (MATH-oriented people will appreciate that one ) slope of decay for the industry.
Yes, there was a speculation boom. Do you really think that there were 2.5 million fans buying SPIDER-MAN #1? Or 4 million buying X-FORCE #1? Or 7 million fans buying X-MEN #1?
I accidentally wandered into the comic book store in my college town the day X-MEN #1 came out, and I stood in line behind a smartly dressed businessman holding a stack of X-MEN #1s two feet high, along with some comic bags and comic boards. Dude wasn't planning to read them all.
Yes there was all of that in the late 1980's and very early 1990's, Image was all about speculation at first, but the pinnacle of the speculation boom was the Death of Superman. Everyone noticed comics on that day, and got the idea that they're worth something. Sports card dealers found a new thing to make a buck with on short term speculation, and imediately began offering comics in their card shops. There was a huge influx of buyers and sellers of comics just after TDOS, which lasted about a year, then dropped off precipitously when all those people stopped making big bucks, and the new "fans" lost interest.
Oh sure, there were many people who were buying foil covers by the heap, but I think it happened well before Image.
******
I don't think anyone has said otherwise. The Speculator Boom is what made Image possible. Keep that in mind, any time you hear one of the Image boys talking about the "risks" they took, and spinning yarns about how bold and daring they were to do what they did. (What Frank Miller and I had been doing for more than a year at that time.)
As I have said before, when these guys congratulate themselves for their success it is like a championship surfer congratulating himself for the wave.
I heard a interesting story concerning those " collectors ". A wife of a comic professional ( I can't remember the names of who this is ) owns a comic shop, and one day in walks a man dressed in a business suit. He has in his hands the first four issues of WildCats and Youngblood. He approaches the counter and askes said lady how much she will give him for the comics. She replies " a dollar ". He says a piece, and she says " no for all of them ". Well now the guy is upset, because he was expecting to make a small fortune off of these eight books. The lady explains to him that those books were way over printed, and are worth nothing. Then she adds how she hates people like him, and informs him that people like him are the reason comics are hurting so bad today. Well, now the guy is really offended, and asks to speak to the manager. The lady says sure I'll get him, because she employs him. The guy repeats this story to the manager, and demands that the lady be fired for her rude behavior. The manager says that he can't fire the lady, because he doesn't have that kind of authority. Then the man demands to speak to the owner of the store. The manager then points to the lady and replies " she is the owner ".
The question I have about the Image boys is how fast are they/were they blowing that windfall? Were they smart enough to get real cash and bank it? Or was it like my old tech stock options that had me rich on paper and now poor in reality?
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience and Experience comes from... Bad Judgement.
He has in his hands the first four issues of WildCats and Youngblood. He approaches the counter and askes said lady how much she will give him for the comics. She replies " a dollar ".
********
As the Speculator Boom was shifting into high gear the Overprice Street Guide listed the first issue of SPAWN as having a mint value of $9. One of the regular writers for CBG got on the phone and called retailers all over the country, saying he had a mint copy of SPAWN 1, what could he get for it? 25¢ was the highest offer -- tho many were prepared to sell him a copy, for $9.
"Screwed the pooch" does not even begin to encompass what we did to ourselves in this industry.
As the Speculator Boom was shifting into high gear the Overprice Street Guide listed the first issue of SPAWN as having a mint value of $9. One of the regular writers for CBG got on the phone and called retailers all over the country, saying he had a mint copy of SPAWN 1, what could he get for it? 25¢ was the highest offer -- tho many were prepared to sell him a copy, for $9.
Having seen many Image comics on the wall of various comic shops in my area it delights me to no end to ask that same question when I spy a comic going for $20,$25 or even higher. Their answer is usually "We're not looking to purchase at this time." or something equally profound.
The Wizard price guide lists the white cover Ultimate Spider-man # 1 at $320. This is still way too much money for this book. The one on E-Bay might be CGC graded and has a high grade number. I think this is even worse. CGC grading is just inflating the back issue market. Plus you can't take the comic out of the plastic case to read it. What's the fun of buying a comic book, that you can't even read.
I don't believe in manufactured collectibles. A few years ago I found myself spending good money to buy Star Wars toys from the 70s and early 80s that didn't see much in the way of distribution, but that was the case because the Star Wars toy line was dying. There was no "limited edition" crap like there is today in the toy and comicbook markets.
If something says "collector's item" on it, it probably isn't one.
I remember before the crash period I believed everything was overvalued so I traded in my 2 copies of New mutants 87, my 3 copies of Amazing Spider-Man 298 and 2 copies of Amazing Spider-Man 300 and got silver age and bronze age books for them. I think I got a mint Iron Fist #1 and #15, Marvel premiere #25, A nice copy of House of Secrets #92 and near perfect Fantastic Four #57.
One of my most frustrating experiences, when I am the auctioneer at MidOhioCon's charity auction, is seeing things like a "Limited Editon" (1 of 5000) "Spawnmobile" toy go for $500 and a page of original art go for $15.
Was going through my collection last night and ran across this, circa 1969.
The bottom right-hand corner is what caught my attention: "Collector's Edition".
If you believe what you read in the Overstreet Guide, people started "hoarding" comics in the mid-60's. Why? Was it speculation at that point? Looking at historical DJIA data, the stock market was up approximately 50% between 1960 and 1965. Go back to 1950 and the DJIA is up about 375% at that point. Certainly, anybody doing any "serious" investing would not going to be looking at comicbooks.
Now, as it turns it out, the mid-60's was a great time to "invest" in comicbooks. Between 1965 and 1975, the DJIA dropped 22%. A 12-cent copy of Fantastic Four #36 (Mar/1965) was selling for about $4.00 in 1975 - a 3333% increase! Even if, as a "non-dealer", you only got $2.00 for FF#36, you're still looking at a 1600+% increase. That's (obviously) a phenomenal return on investment. Today, that copy of FF#36 is listed in the Overstreet Guide at $140. An ROI of 11,667% vs. DJIA at 1109% (between 1965 and today).
The DJIA is up 300% since 1992. $2 would have bought you a copy of Spawn #1 in 1992. CGC 9.8 (yeah, another story!) copies of Spawn are selling for an average of $40 on eBay. Subtract the $16 for CGC services and you're averaging about $24 a copy (1200%!). $2 invested in Dell stock in May 1992 would get you about $175 today (8750%! On the other hand, look what you'd have today if you put that $2 in Enron).
Since 1995 (the farthest my spreadsheet goes back), my collection of ~2500 comics has only increased about 100%. Nowhere near the DJIA and a lot harder to sell than stocks! If I was in this for the money, I'd have considered it a failure and dumped in '99 when the collection increased in value by only 12% since '95 - my 401k had done MUCH better in that time!
It's easy to see how the "speculator boom" (of the '90s) happened - especially if you compare it with what happened in the 60's. Why did the 90's "fail", though, compared to the "success" of 30 years ago? Or is it just too early to tell?
Even though historical importance plays a part, scarcity is always the deciding factor when it comes to collectibles. That's what the speculators failed to grasp, and what eBay finally made clear -- just because something is "hot" doesn't mean that demand exceeds supply. And that's the only reason that prices should go up.
For example, I own a copy of the Rolling Stones' STICKY FINGERS on Spanish vinyl that has different artwork and the song "Let It Rock" (a live Chuck Berry cover) instead of "Sister Morphine." This is a hot item for Rolling Stones collectors because "Let It Rock" has never been commercially released on CD, and can only be found on a British single and this album. The moment that "Let It Rock" appears on a Stones compilation or a special edition of STICKY FINGERS, demand for my record will go down, and I will have a curiosity worth $20 instead of a Holy Grail worth $100 or more. Scarcity, see?
Any comic that has been reprinted as often as ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 can't possibly be worth more than the paper it's printed on.
Again, it all goes back to a Wall Street Journal article in the 70s that said comics had a greater return than gold. This was based on a copy of ACTION COMICS 1 having recently sold at auction for $20Gs, a considerable "return" on a 10¢ "investment".
What was not taken into consideration was that whoever sold the comic had not bought it for a dime, and there are only 6 copies of ACTION 1 known to exist.
These days the only way a speculator can turn a profit on a comic is to find a buyer dumber than he is.
These days the only way a speculator can turn a profit on a comic is to find a buyer dumber than he is.
Which is alot easier than you think. When LXG came out last year, there was this guy who was interested in buying all the comics before he even saw the movie, probably thinking they would go up in value. I told him that because of the movie's buzz the comics were selling at probably the highest price they will ever reach and if he really was interested in owning them he should wait a few months after the movie comes out when the prices taper off a bit. Of course he ignored me and bought whole sets off of ebay for hundreds of dollars.
Any comic that has been reprinted as often as ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 can't possibly be worth more than the paper it's printed on.
Reprints don't count. (Unless they're reallllly old like the second printing of Superman #1 (and I don't mean Byrne's).) I doubt the Millenium Edition of Action Comics #1 had any effect on the back issue sales for the real thing.
Ultimate Spider-Man #1 actually does go for a decent penny. I even got a comic shop to give me a good offer on mine when I sold it. (Probably should have done ebay, but I was too nervous. )
I think a large drive for the price of Ultimate Spider-Man #1 are the occasional rumors that the Ultimate universe will one day be the "real one." If the Ultimate line is ever cancelled, I imagine the value of USM #1 will plummet significantly.
Reprints shrink the potential market for collectibles, because the consumers who only want the content are taken out of the game. THIS IS SPINAL TAP was going for $200+ on Criterion Collection DVD until it was reissued -- now it can be had for $75-80. Still a premium, but nothing like before.
That said, is ANY edition of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 really a collector's item when the TPB with the story is still in print? The STORY is what would potentially have historic value, and not only is ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 readily available in other formats, it's a retelling of a story that ACTUALLY has historic value.
Personally, I have never seen the appeal of variant covers. If given a choice, I buy the one I like best. The content is the thing to me.
As JB said, the "kid" who bought Action #1 was obviously not one of the ones that stuck around for sixty years in perfect condition.
So, give these guys their own playing field. Want a cool collectible that is airtight, and graded/restored/vaultable? Fine, go getcher CGC copy and have it hermetically sealed inside a block of cement.
Me? I'll take the highest quality, cheapest REPRINT I can find of whatever comic someone else wants to lock away as "valuable".
It will remove these guys as truly part of the equation, if you ask me. They'll be hunting a whole different article than what I'm looking for.
I'd have to agree with you about the record, Brendan. However, I don't wholly agree about the Ultimate Spider-Man. Most M comics already have a low print run that creates a degree of demand for them after a few months. Usually the demand comes from long-timers who want to fill in the back issues of a title. In these cases, the reprints will not satisfy them. For these guys, price isn't an issue.
On the other hand, I don't see too many "new" fans anymore, and those I do see like the TPB most of all. Consequently, the new collectors don't care about the first printing of USM, or any individual issues, which is a whole other problem...I think.
So, I think you are correct that the presence of the reprints may be decreasing demand, but it is very difficult to gauge by how much, and may not be as severe as one might think.
Ultimate Spider-Man is "valuable" now because demand is high and supply is being kept low by people hoarding multiple copies hoping it will increase in value. I bet in 5-10 years it will substantially decrease in "value": demand will decrease because the series will no longer be the trendy popular thing everyone wants to have, and supply will increase because these hoarders will decide it's time to get a return on their "investment" and will start selling off their multiple copies.
This message has been edited by czeskleba on Apr 6, 2004 3:09 AM
Jason: "Ultimate Spider-Man is "valuable" now because demand is high and supply is being kept low by people hoarding multiple copies hoping it will increase in value. I bet in 5-10 years it will substantially decrease in "value": demand will decrease because the series will no longer be the trendy popular thing everyone wants to have, and supply will increase because these hoarders will decide it's time to get a return on their "investment" and will start selling off their multiple copies."
That's crazy talk! Crazy talk, I tells ya!
I must say, I've already seen a drop-off on new sales for the "Ultimate" line at my shop. Take that for what it's worth, which is probably 2 bucks, and twenty.
Reprints shrink the potential market for collectibles, because the consumers who only want the content are taken out of the game. THIS IS SPINAL TAP was going for $200+ on Criterion Collection DVD until it was reissued -- now it can be had for $75-80. Still a premium, but nothing like before.
I suppose, but depending on the value of the item, it may not be affected by the release of a reprint. The people who are willing to pay $800 for the first appearance of Wolverine aren't necessarily the same people who "just want to read the story."
But speaking from experience, there's a thrill you get with owning the original that you just don't get with a reprint.
(Also, when the DVD was re-released, was it the exact same as the original version? That would have an effect, too.)
That said, is ANY edition of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 really a collector's item when the TPB with the story is still in print? The STORY is what would potentially have historic value, and not only is ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 readily available in other formats, it's a retelling of a story that ACTUALLY has historic value.
The "historic value" of Ultimate Spider-Man is that it's the first "Ultimate Universe" comic.
BH: "For example, I own a copy of the Rolling Stones' STICKY FINGERS on Spanish vinyl that has different artwork and the song "Let It Rock" (a live Chuck Berry cover) instead of "Sister Morphine...."
****
Brendan, I used to have this same album. I should have held onto it. IIRC, the spanish album cover has a very literal interpretation of album title.
That said, is ANY edition of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 really a collector's item when the TPB with the story is still in print? The STORY is what would potentially have historic value, and not only is ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN #1 readily available in other formats, it's a retelling of a story that ACTUALLY has historic value.
The "historic value" of Ultimate Spider-Man is that it's the first "Ultimate Universe" comic.
********
Which should make it about as valuable as the first New Universe comic.
The "historic value" of Ultimate Spider-Man is that it's the first "Ultimate Universe" comic.
If that's historic, I want my history back. The Ultimate Universe means about as much to mainstream America as SPIDEY SUPER STORIES. (Personally, I'm with them.)
Let's look at an example from further back, JB's MAN OF STEEL, which was a similar re-introduction to a familiar character. As much as I adore JB's work on MAN OF STEEL, I don't think of it as a historic comic book. It has a place in the timeline of key moments in Superman's publishing history, but did it introduce a new character that soon became a part of mainstream pop culture? Is it the first published work by an important and influential artist? Did it start a movement in storytelling? Did it become a sensation after a criminally low first printing? It's a wonderful read, but a historic collectible worth an enormous premium? Not in my world.
History has shown me to be right. MAN OF STEEL #1 is going for $1.80 at Mile High Comics in NM condition.
FYI -- the SPINAL TAP reissue does have different content, notably the commentary track, which is by the Spinal Tap actors on the Criterion DVD and the actors in character as Spinal Tap on the reissue.
And there was a reason I said "reprints shrink the potential marketplace" rather than "eliminate the potential marketplace." Clearly there will still be a market for the original item from rabid collectors.
There's a reason I put "historic value" in quotes...
From JB: Which should make it about as valuable as the first New Universe comic.
I sure it will be, if and when the Ultimate Universe goes away. For now, the bubble hasn't burst yet.
From Brendan: The Ultimate Universe means about as much to mainstream America as SPIDEY SUPER STORIES. (Personally, I'm with them.)
Mainstream America aren't the ones who are going to be paying $180 for a comic book. As long as a certain batch of fans cares, the book will stay valuable.
Do I think it's silly that fans are willing to pay so much for Ultimate Spider-Man #1? Certainly. But am I grateful that fans who were willing to pay so much for USM #1 enabled me to trade it in for a nice copy of Avengers #4? Yes I am.
BH: "For example, I own a copy of the Rolling Stones' STICKY FINGERS on Spanish vinyl that has different artwork and the song "Let It Rock" (a live Chuck Berry cover) instead of "Sister Morphine...."
****
Brendan, I used to have this same album. I should have held onto it. IIRC, the spanish album cover has a very literal interpretation of album title.
Yup, the Spanish cover shows a severed hand reaching out of a can of treacle (molasses). Somehow this was less disturbing that a picture of a crotch clad in jeans.
You should be able to see a B&W cover of the album here:
I dont know about the printing of this book though. Is the white cover the 1st printing and the others are subsequent printings?
Is marvel purposely creating a scarcity by underpublishing a potentially popular book. Then reaping the rewards in the secondary market?
The TY company did this with beanie babies. They would make rare ones, everyone would kill eachother to get them, and then the TY company would sell the same animals on QVC into the rabid inflated market.
Sports card companies to the same thing, by making ultrarare card and inserting them into packs randomly.
Somehow there are always ultrarare cards in numbers on the HSN or QVC or whatever.
Finally, I am vaguely familiar with a court case where a father sued a card shop and TOpps for an illegal lottery, since the ultrarare Ken Griffey card had such value associated with it, that to buy the packs for 3 bucks was a lottery since you could 'win' a grand by getting the ultra rare card. Magic the gathering and all CCG games work the same way, as does the minisuper hero game that is currently out there. (1 inch Galactus for 5-700 bucks on Ebay)
George's WONDER WOMAN #1 goes for $7.80 (#2 is only $2.00) and BATMAN #404 is $15.00 (#405-407 are $10.80 each). WONDER WOMAN may be inflated because it was never reprinted until recently. (Or was it?)
Brendan: "George's WONDER WOMAN #1 goes for $7.80 (#2 is only $2.00) and BATMAN #404 is $15.00 (#405-407 are $10.80 each). WONDER WOMAN may be inflated because it was never reprinted until recently. (Or was it?)"
I think you may be right.
I believe that the reason that JB's "Man of Steel" doesn't command as high of a value as it could is that it had such a sizable print run that its' own popularity works against it, in regard to back issue price.
I love all three works mentioned above, but "Wonder Woman" is in the least demand, really. Pretty art and good story, but more people look for Batman and Superman comics. I sell JB Superman titles regularly, and, naturally, a Frank Miller "Batman" comic will always sell well (Well, that is, before "DK2" back issues, that is -- That's not a snarky remark, it's sadly the truth).
"Finally, I am vaguely familiar with a court case where a father sued a card shop and TOpps for an illegal lottery, since the ultrarare Ken Griffey card had such value associated with it, that to buy the packs for 3 bucks was a lottery since you could 'win' a grand by getting the ultra rare card. Magic the gathering and all CCG games work the same way, as does the minisuper hero game that is currently out there. (1 inch Galactus for 5-700 bucks on Ebay)"
Just some inforation, so no one misunderstands. The Ken griffey card was in 1989, and I'm certain the guy lost his case. The card involved was no rarer than any other card in that particular set. Yes, you might get one, but thats how ALL baseball and trading card packs work.
Most CCG don't work that way at all. The rarest cards for Magic, for instance, are worth about $500, and are long out of print, THATS why they're worth that much. When they were first released, they were the same as all the other cards released then. Their demand and scarcity (age) and condition is what drives them to such levels.
The "1 inch Galactus for 5-700 bucks on Ebay" is nothing of the sort. Its like, 2-feet high, and is available as a dealer exclusive, at this time, for about $250 and what happens after that is their business. I think the company plans on continuing its "release", so if yer patient enough, they're be enough for all.
DAD: "Just some inforation, so no one misunderstands. The Ken griffey card was in 1989, and I'm certain the guy lost his case..."
Ah, you just gotta love the hypocrisy in such court cases... Do you think that those people suing Topps would've done so if THEY got the card? Nope. They were just pissed because they couldn't get one.
There was a case like this recently, over Pokemon cards. It's such cases that has caused the card manufacturers to put a disclaimer on each pack informing the buyer that they are not guaranteed a rare card.
Check it out the next time you see a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh cards.
Yep, I've seen the disclaimer. Its funny because I can't recall ever hearing of someone NOT getting a rare in a pack, but I've personally seen "gold" packs, with all rares in them.
People are crazy.
There is a relatively new game out there (to me anyway) called Heroclix. The game is with small 1 inch tall heros that fight on a map, a la D&D from my youth.
Search Heroclix on ebay, and see how the 'rare' pieces sell for a lot, and the truly rare pieces like the 1 inch tall galactus sell for >400 bucks
The "scam" with the Griffey card in fact was that it had a sliver of his baseball bat or Jersey on it, and they insert these 200 card in 10 million packs, so it is like a lottery. I dont believe that it was a beef with the fact that the stars cards are always rarer than the scrubs, but the advertising that there are game worn jersey cards etc.
) slope of decay for the industry.
)
