I have to say I was very disappointed with JLA/Avengers. It started out interesting and I know this was a love gift to the fans, but the last issue was too much. By issue 4, I had enough of all the crowded panels and wanted to sink my teeth into some solid stuff. There was some potentially nice moments, like Cap versus Prometheus, but they were given short rift.
And as much as I love George, the art was too crowded.
I already voted thumbs down in another thread. I think you're right on all counts except it starting well. Krona? Was anyone really hoping to see this guy again? A mess, top to bottom.
I disagree with you guys completely. It was exactly what comics should be, and exactly what a huge crossover like this should be; FUN!!!! The artwork was gorgeous, and it was obviously an incredible labor of love for the creators. Busiek & Perez need to do a JLA arc ASAP!!!
The artwork was beautiful (unlike Alex Ross, Perez can cram 100 people into a panel and not have it looked forced or awkward), but the story was pure fanfic. It probably would've been much better to focus on two small core teams of JLA and Avengers members (ideally the JLA would be Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter while the Avengers would've been Cap, IM, Thor, Scarlet Witch, The Vision, Hawkeye, and the Beast) instead of EVERYONE (c'mon, would anybody be terribly broken up if Black Condor, Rage, Agent Liberty or Darkhawk didn't appear in JLA/Avengers?). Come up with a coherant plot (I still don't know why Grandmaster and Krona were after all those artefacts- or indeed, if they were even the ones after them), not a bunch of random unconnected cool bits.
the single biggest dissapointment I have experienced in comics.
It was the equivelant of dumping over a bucket full of crayons. "Throw everything in, including the kitchen sink and every other thing in the universe on top of that. It was like looking at a paiting by Pollack and trying to make sense of it as narrative....
Every panel was 5000000000000000000000000 characters doing everything...........
Missed its mark by a mile. I've seen Perez do great stuff....this story was not what Avengers JLA should have been at all. I stopped reading it after issue 2 and finished it with zero enthusiasm.....it really was a convoluted mess.
The original 21 pages of the Avengers vs JLA is what I would rather of had...
I'll reserve my final opinion until I've had a chance to read the entire series in one sitting (or at least sittings not months apart.)
My thoughts after reading issue 4 is that the approach taken shows so many similarities between the companies. To the point of being repetitive.
How many times can Krona be used for team ups?
What any of these crossovers are meant to be is a fanboy dream. It would be near impossible to craft a story that might match 20+ years of fantasies that fans have had about such a team-up. So given the limitation of so many different expectations, I think Busiek and Perez did all right.
The comment about limiting the teams has a lot of merit to me. That's the one thing that would have been better served if this came out 20 years ago. Each team's past/current roster has become so bloated since '82.
If I didn't figure it would be a watered down version of this, I wouldn't mind seeing another match up. Now that the ice has been broken, it might be possible to get a more character driven team up.
Four books made it too cramped and rushed. There were some great things in the book, but a few exctra pages here and there would have given us a better Superman/Thor battle, we could've seen the Batman/Cap/Taskmaster/Prometheus proxy battles, Wonder Woman and the Grrl force against Surtur, and the rush through chronal chaos (different menbers popping in and out in consecutive panels) would have been clearer.
Within the constraints of the medium I think they did well. I think the use of Krona was one of those constraints. He would probably have been the last choice for villain among the fams, but ultimately there are two competing companies that have to agree on things, and some of the plot strictures would, I imagine, have been imposed.
JB, any more in-depth pro experience to add to or discount that theory?
____________________________________________
You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different.
everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion, of course ... but I don't think I'd want to hang out with anyone who doesn't recognize how GREAT JLAS/Avengers was.
No one has EVER done as good of a job juggling so many characters as Busiek and Perez have in this story. If there's been a better example, name it. This had the perfect balance of action, characterization and plot.
If this was fanfic, I would enjoy fanfic. This had none of the amateurist, irritating characteristics of fanfic. It's really an insult to Busiek to even equate it with so much of the garbage produced by fans. Just because a story is packed with lots of moments fans will enjoy does not make it fanfic.
And to suggest TOO much was going on, is to me to miss the point of the entire project. It's like telling Amadeus he uses too many notes.
As far as I'm concerned, they're nuts! The mini was everything that I hoped it would be, and I had a blast reading it. I especially liked the part in issue 3 where the universes "blended" together and their histories were combined.
JB, any more in-depth pro experience to add to or discount that theory?
*******
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but in my professional opinion books like this should never happen. Mark Gruenwald used to call them "Wallpaper Books", and he hated them -- the panels jammed with so many superheroes that they all blended together and became nothing but wallpaper. No chance to be unique, no chance to shine -- unless it is at the expense of other characters.
As someone said, this was the ultimate FanFic. If we are lucky, that will be "ultimate" in the true sense of the word: the last. It's done now. You've all been waiting for it for 25 years, and now it's been done. By definition, you could not help but be disappointed. So now, let the companies go back to their separate corners, let the characters go back to their separate books, and let's get back to the real job, making each issue of each character the best it can possibly be.
It was non-stop action for me...I totally dug it. It was fun, filled with heroes and villains, and the story was fairly basic. It was a classic comic book team up....good guys win, bad guys lose, but on a lot bigger scale.
Much of the story did strike me as fanfic. Lots of really cool, fan-pleasing moments just kind of happened for no other reason than that they were cool, and were sketchily explained. Did some of them please me? Oh, certainly- I thought it was cool to see Hawkeye wisecracking about the JLA being Squadron Supreme knock-offs and the JSA/Invaders team-ups. I even thought there was some real meat in the story when Busiek played up the difference between the "darker, more realistic" Marvel Universe and the "bright, shining" DC Universe.
Of course, I'm sure that Kurt gave the story his all and it's very difficult to live up to 20 years of expectations and hype, but in the end, I honestly don't know what the story was about, and if I hadn't been reading comics my entire life, I doubt I'd get a charge out of it. There was fun to be had, certainly, but in the end, I just felt it was a big old confusing mess with a few nice bits and really good artwork.
EDIT to fix the spelling of the word "repentant".
This message has been edited by GreggAllinson on Apr 4, 2004 7:04 PM
Plot: Nefarious bad guy with incredible powers and on an insane quest for knowledge poses great threat to two universes. The heroes of the two universes are forced into combat with one another, but then team up against the bad guy. They face overwhelming odds, yet they overcome tremendous obstacles and personal differences to beat the bad guy and save their homeworlds. A rollicking adventure & once-in-a-lifetime event that's fun for the whole family!
The plot of the book was very simple and straightforward--which is fine, IMO. Doesn't it kinda half to be with only 4 issues to work with and so many characters? Every panel was pure eye candy and I marveled at the incredible about of detail that went into every one. The whole story was a fun, satisfying read with several cool moments. For what it was intended to be--I don't really see how it could've been done any better!
I thought it started out really good then the last two issues fizzled for me. This seemed like an excuse for Perez to draw every character and I thought the story suffered. I agree with JB that Marvel and DC shouldn't play together anymore.
I have a question though, who was supposed to write the original JLA/Avengers? For some reason I am thinking Shooter.
Shaun
I agree with Melissa. Maybe if it was longer, we could have had more time for the cool moments. And then maybe we could have had a last issue that was done with all the alternate reality stuff and focused just on the two teams. I also agree with JB that this was wallpaper comics and too often just an excuse for George to show off his considerable talents.
To me, nobody beats JB when it comes to fight scenes. If you remember the issue of FF where they fought Gladiator, that was a great Superman/FF fight. Well paced and very dramatic.
Dramatic fight scenes have been a rare thing in comics lately. After Watchmen, everyone one wanted to do realistic fight scenes as opposed to cool comic book ones. Most of my favorite comic book fights, are by JB, such as:
Cap/Iron Fist
Iron Fist/Luke Cage (turn around Mr. Cage) what a punch!!!
FF versus Terrax (I beg to differ chrome dome). Another great punch.
Doc Samson. My jaw hurt after Doc knocked out the Hulk
All done so operatic and dramatic.
Thor's hammer hitting Superman was cool however.
I would love to see JB tackle Superman versus Hulk or Thor. That would be very cool.
To me, the best intercompany crossovers are small, like JB's Cap/Batman.
I love the art, Perez keeps getting better and better. I didn't like the story too much, maybe because #4 came out a bit late. didn't understand the story also.....
It WAS pure fanfic. NOTHIN' wrong with that. It was bigger than big yet had some nice downtime moments as well (that some folk apparently didn't seem to notice). It SHOULD be a once in a life-time event but it probably won't be. Here's a clue, ya don't have to BUY the next one.
I loved it and those who feel the need to pick it apart? Well, that's just sad. But they have MUCH better ways to do it then those "hacks" George and Kurt. -Rick
>>the single biggest dissapointment I have experienced in comics.<<
Oh! You must not have read DK2 yet - you're in for a real "treat" when you read that stinker.
Here's my thoughts, now that it's done - it kind of left me feeling the way I did at the end of Kingdom Come - beautiful art, great story set up... lousy pay-off.
I really dug the first 3 issues of JLA/Avengers - thought it was really interesting, and I thought the contrast between the two worlds was pretty clever, but the last issue was kind of so-so for me. Perez's art was, of course, second only to Byrne, and it was a thing of beauty, etc etc, but there was an overwhelming feeling that it was just an oppertunity for Perez to draw every Marvel & DC character who ever existed, and there was VERY little story to go with the (too tiny to be) pretty pictures.
And then, the end - like Kingdom Come, the end was full of sound and fury... signifying...you know what. What the hell did that mean? (In both cases!!) - I'm no idiot - my college degree didn't fall out of a cracker-jack box. I mean, I got Mullholland Drive on the first viewing - I "get" art, and the story just didn't really ammount to anything. They had some big fight and then the eternities kissed and Spectre saved the day or something...? Huh?
(That's easy compared to Kingdom Come - which I enjoyed, don't get me wrong, but.. wait, what the hell is the point of that one?? What's Spectre's point? He follows this doom around for a while, and then... ? He has to either kill all the humans or all the heroes? Wait? How does that make sense? And then, somehow, only Billy Batson can figure out that really, neither should be killed, and yet he screws that up? Man, that story makes no F***ing sense to me!!)
Having said that, it was a cool read, till the last chapter, and I have to say that I did, in fact enjoy it, and maybe those who didn't should let the sting of the last chapter wear off and then go back and read it again, and they might like it a little more.
Besides, like I said, it looks like Catcher in the Rye compared to DK2.
And a no-prize to anyone who can make sense of either of those two stories to me.
Part of the problem here seems to me to be what you expected out of the books. Some of you wanted more one on one fights. I would have burned the books if there were more one on one fights. I accepted a lot of that because, for some, that's what comic books are: Guy In Costume A fights Guy In Costume B. Why? Doesn't matter.
For me, I liked that it tried to tell a story and didn't capitulate more than it did to all of the fannish things some of you wanted.
Frankly, for something trying to be all things to all people, I thought it did well.
And I believe some of you are disappointed in the ending simply because it ended.
Gerry Conway was the original writer. Jim Shooter rejected the plot and DC brought in Roy Thomas to try to clean it up. It was around that time that everything fell apart.
I'll agree with Mark G., it was a wallpaper book, but that's ok with me. Stuff like this is like a big summer popcorn movie, you want it crammed with action, lots of pretty colors and to make a big noise. It's not what I would want to read every month, but for a big event comic, it was pretty good. I enjoyed it a lot.
I thought JLA/Avengers was exactly what it was supposed to be. It was a lot of fun.
How would you feel if you were twelve years old and picked this up? I think you'd think it was great! A big superhero slug-fest, what you would want out of a comic like this.
Secret Wars came out when I was a kid and I just thought that every comic that came out should be like that! Looking back with adult eyes, I might not think so today.
"I'd bet a certain amount of negativity comes from the 20 year wait (not to mention the hype).
"JLA AVENGERS is finally here, after 20 years!Huh?!? That's it?!?"
Fans are a fickle bunch."
This is partially why people have been complaining about the Sopranos the past 2 seasons. 16 months is a helluva gap in-betweeen seasons, so fans got antsy and started raising their expectations. Then once the season airs, they complain that it was not worth the wait.
I was basically one of those fans concerning last season, but so far it looks like the season is more true to form.
I enjoyed 98% of the series. My big question is why did Hawkeye shooting a TNT arrow at some big globe save the day? What did he hit, why was it important, and why was it such an Achilles Heel? I really would appreciate any answers you guys might have!
One panel of Count Nefaria (my favorite JB costume design) duking it out with Superman made my day!
My vote goes to DK2 along with Mike's. That POS was an insult to fans/readers, IMO. And not just because I didn't care for it. I got the feeling that Miller was condescending to his audience, ie "Look, I can do whatever crap I want and they'll STILL buy it!!!"
I'll get JLA/Avengers in the $0.99 cent box in a few months...
I really have to disagree with you people that hated this series. They did the best they could in the context of having everyone come out smelling like a rose. I think the epilogue sums the series up regarding the difficulty of having a game where everybody wins.
"I'll get JLA/Avengers in the $0.99 cent box in a few months..."
I wouldn't count on that happening to soon. Oh, I won't say that somewhere someone will find such a bargain, but the series was not a flop.
I ordered a great amount of "Avengers/JLA" #4 and I sold out within the week (with a few days!).
One thing many of us, the more "serious" of comic book fans --The kind that knows all the artists and writers, and even the editors' names, and the ones that participate daily on message boards devoted to comics -- forget is that we are not the entirety of the comic book buying populace. I see many customers in my shop that LOVE the kind of book that "Avengers/JLA" is. These are the readers that pick up such books precisely because they want to see the heroes go toe to toe with each other.
I still can sell "Infinity Gauntlet" and "Marvel vs. DC" nearly any day of the week. Some fans just want to read an action-filled adventure. "Avengers/JLA" delivers on that score.
Personally, I love Perez's art and I always have. I do think the art in this series was a little crowded, but it was cool, nonetheless. The story was servicable. But then, that's all it needed to be. This series was never meant to be nothing more than a "let's you and him fight" story. And that's what the majority of the fans wanted to see, and that's exactly what they got.
I grew up on SUPER FRIENDS, and AVENGERS was my favorite comic book from the age of 9 to 16. Perez and Busiek's AVENGERS brought me back to comic book collecting after nearly 10 years of wandering in to see what JB was up to. Suffice it to say that I have been waiting for JLA/AVENGERS for my whole life.
Is it a story that will live in history? Is it a high point in the history of fiction? Did it change the way the revolves around the sun? Hell no.
But did it make a jaded 33-year-old guy feel like a 9-year-old kid again? Yes. Oh good heavens yes.
In my opinion, Perez's artwork kicked ass. Every panel was a delight to look at and savor. Busiek pushed all the right buttons while not going TOO far over the top -- and if he came close, the story commented upon it. I was pleased that the book touched on so many characters, as it prevents fans from whining "How could you leave out...?" The heroes fought each other, yes, but they also worked together and fought villains from each other's universes. This was definitely not a one-note book.
I wouldn't change a thing about it. I hope they don't try a sequel.
my opinion on JLA/Avengers is that it tried very hard
to satisfy every fans expectation of what this crossover
was supposed to be and i praise George and Kurt
for their efforts. 3 out of the four issues i found enjoyable
which i can't say for alot of the books out there. i felt more
disappointed when DK2 came out. Hopefully, if M****l and
DC ever produce another crossover it'll be easier to handle
than this was. Ultimately i applaud the efforts to a project
that most thought would not happen...
-C!
This message has been edited by Charles27 on Apr 5, 2004 1:14 AM
I just have to ask: Outside of comic books created and written by JB, what do you like out there? What comic books do you think are good? What I'm wondering, based on many threads started by you over the last two weeks, is what still draws you to the comic shop (or direct mail) week in and week out, since I see nothing but absolute negativity connected with any series/character you write about? Basically, what comic books are out there right now that you want to read?
I get a sense that there is nothing out there that meets your standards and I guess I'm just trying to figure out what those standards are.
Matt Reed
This message has been edited by MattReed on Apr 5, 2004 3:59 AM
I must say I'm a little disappionted in the finale as well, but overall, I thought the story was entertaining, well scripted, and the art was very, very nice, and it's just plain old neat to see these characters interacting.
It was what it was. If someone else had written and drawn it it would have been a completely different experience.That said, if I had wanted to read Infinity Gauntlet part 4 I would have lobbied for it. They should have gotten Starlin to write it and Thanos as the main villain. Quite honestly this book seemed like Krona should have been Thanos and that was a missing piece.
There was way to much going on for me to enjoy anything but appreciate how crazy drawing all those characters was.They put in absolutely everything but the kitchen sink..I'm sure that's in a panel somewhere if I checked.
I wasn't disappointed but I didn't really like it. I didn't dislike it either. A shame that something that took that long to do didn't move me at all.
For those who agree with me that JLA-Avengers was a disappointment: is there any way to do these kinds of big group crossovers right? or do the problems involved (as ennumerated by JB and others) make them just plain impossible?
is there any way to do these kinds of big group crossovers right?
*******
Not really. By definition, they defeat what superhero books are about, which is individuals or small groups of individuals fighting the good fight. The more characters on the page, the more the fans love it, but the more the concept is whittled away.
Books like this are overkill. They can be very well executed overkill, but overkill they remain.
I'd much rather see a book like THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD (since the title fits) turned into a montly Marvel/DC team-up book. Character A and Character B in single issues stories, with no attempts to explain different "universes". Much how the first SUPERMAN vs THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN was done. Flawed as it was, that was just about the best handling of this concept we have seen, and it worked mostly by taking as it's primary conceit the notion that Superman and Spider-Man were in the same "reality" and always had been.
(Hanging on my studio wall is the double-page spread from that book in which Superman and Spider-Man meet for the first time. All the "explanation" needed is covered by the fact that they recognize each other. Not as beings from parallel universes, or comicbook stories, or whatever -- but as fellow superheroes whose paths just happen to be crossing now for the first time. I look at that spread, and I cannot help but smile.)
JLA/Avengers didn't even blip my radar. Event books have grown old to me and the plots are always forced or compromised. The only reason I even looked at #4 was because the cover was cool and everyone had started talking about it so I wanted to see what it was like.
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience and Experience comes from... Bad Judgement.
While not having read # 4 I can say the first 3 were very much in the same vein that every JLA Annual I ever read. the story is very late 70's DC Annual material.
The story is exactly what I expected and the art the best George has ever done.
<,You guys are a REALLY demanding lot, if JLA/Avengers disappointed you. It's great.>>
I agree, Trev. Some folks are still waiting for that "perfect" comic. It's never coming. It was a big, fun book. As usual, you can please some of the people, some of the time.....-Rick
JLA/AVENGERS was perfect for what it was intended to be: a fun game of what if. I think it was meant to be a fun look at what a meeting of these two universes would be like. I loved the art; I don't think anyone has ever done a better JLA than Perez. I loved the (understandably limited) characterization. I thought the constant changing of time lines was fun. Sometimes you gotta just love the game and not worry about the score.
>>The best part of the JLA/Avengers book was the stories that weren't told...
Like JLA vs. Doom, who was trying to breach the source wall. THAT would've rocked!<<
Exactly my thoughts, the little one panel glimpses at the Crisis on Multiple Earths being a meeting of Avengers and JLA, the one with Hawkeye "Moving" to DC Earth, those would have been great stories.
I liked the way the characters, despite some playful bickering, seemed to respect each other. The heroes of one universe seemed to confirm the value of heroism in both worlds.
I liked the good old-fashioned storytelling ("old-fashioned" in this sense equals "not deconstructionist post-modernism") in issues one and two. I liked the way issue seemed to fly off the tracks, leaving me fearful the whole project might collapse. I liked the fact the old-fashioned story go back on track. I even liked the de rigeur "big cosmic reveal" at the end, although it was meaningless.
I remember a big Avenger/Defenders "crossover" (AVENGERS c.117, I think). Dormammu did something awful with The Evil Eye, something so bad it got the attention of everyone "on Earth or -- Counter-Earth." (Dracula and Adam Warlock both suddenly got heartburn, and remarked on bad hoodoo in the air.) It seemed SO COOL that something could affect EVERYBODY.
I got a similar kick out of JLA/AVENGERS. Yes it was wallpaper, yes it was a stunt. But for me, it confirmed the characters and themes in both company's books, the way I used to like them in 1982, and made me think well of everything for a while.
JLA/AVENGERS was perfect for what it was intended to be: a fun game of what if.
**********
I would not bet any real money that a year from now (or less) you won't find a passel of fans griping about some story (probably one of mine) that "contradicts" something that was "establsihed" in JLA/AVENGERS.
When we started the series George was under an exclusive contract with Crossgen and only got released from it for one year to do four issues.
Sure we would have all loved to do it as a 12 issue mini series just like Crisis but it was not in the cards two years ago when we started it.
GPz wanted to out do himself and I think he succeed , I know he pushed me to the limit coloring it. He was constatly adding things that were not even in Kurt's plot just because he wanted to play with all the Marvel & DC heroes and villains and their histories one last time before he gave up working on superhero comics for good.
Remember at that time he was going exlusive to CrossGen.
Was it jam packed with tons of fun stuff, crowded panels, obscure heroes and villains? Yes, it was and we had a ball working on it.
And I for one would glady do it again in a heartbeat !
Tom (if you're still here),
I looked over JLA/Avengers again last night and thought to myself "Man, that must have been a bugger to color!" On average, how long did it take you to color a single page of this comic? Thanks
Is it a story that will live in history? Is it a high point in the history of fiction? Did it change the way the revolves around the sun? Hell no.
But did it make a jaded 33-year-old guy feel like a 9-year-old kid again? Yes. Oh good heavens yes.
Change the 33 to 30, though.
This isn't the kind of thing I need to see over and over again, but I thought Busiek and Perez did a decent job of balancing the "wallpaper" with character bits.
Each page of Avengers /JLA took at least 2 days to color. It took one day by my assistants to flat the color and then a day for me to do the finishes. On the tougher pages with lots of reference work it took 3 to 4 days.
This was a time consuming tough job but it was fun while it lasted
