When the notion came up that Chris might be invited in to script the 10th Circle story, I predicted to Carlin that there would be those who invoked our old X-MEN work -- but as a prejorative. (It is a curious phenomenon in some quarters of Fandom that something which they supposedly love becomes a Bad Thing if they fancy they are getting a whiff of it elsewhere.)
Turns out, I was right. No surprise. What is a surprise is the vehemence with which some are condemning the JLA arc as "warmed over X-Men." What's surprising about that is that the story -- ie, the sequence of events and how they involve the characters present -- in no way resembles anything Chris and I did in UNCANNY, and, so far as I can tell, couldn't if we'd wanted it to. The characters, their powers and abilities, their interpersonal relationships, are just too different.
So -- here's a poser: Using the X-Men as they were when Chris and I were doing the book (Cyclops, Phoenix, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Banshee, Colossus and Professor X -- and even Kitty if you're so inclined) would it be possible to tell the same story as the one in JLA 94 thru 99?
Watch as the story unfolds, and tell me if you think the same sequence of events could have been done with the X-Men, or if, indeed, the story is (like most of my stories) specific to the characters involved. Could you lift out the JLA and drop in the X-Men? Or would that make a totally, or near totally different story?
(This is my sneaky way of giving a lesson on just what "story" means.)
I shall ot take your assignment as I wish to simply enjoy the story as it flows without having to think of the X-men. You may not MEAN it as an assignment but it kind of comes off like that. I said before that the JLA arc had a bit of the old X-feel to it but I meant the over-all feel of being taken into the story and being held in the grip of it as I used to be in the old days. The story itself, the characters, etc., are nothing like the X-men but my point is, you guys tell a good story. Always did. I guess there will be some knuckleheads out there who refer to it as "warmed over X-men" but I usually try to steer clear of ther honyoks who'd say that anyway. -Rick
From what I've read of this storyline, so far...it's nothing like an X-Men story(I don't see it becoming any more like one down the road, either). I feel very sorry for the goofballs who think it is. The only reason they would make such a statement is to bash the creators of the storyline...either that...or out of stupendous ignorance.
JB, I would ignore those so-called critics. I promise you, they are not the majority. I hope that you don't let them get to you, as that is what they want to do.
My customers that I've talked with enjoy your work on "JLA" very much. I haven't heard any negative comments about the story or the art at my shop. The only comment that could be construed as critical was a customer asking why you were doing so many vampire stories recently. I explained to him that there was no relation between the "Hawkman" and "JLA" stories.
Even then, that customer was most certainly a fan of your work. He is unhappy that "Superman: Birthright" is dismantling his favorite version of Superman, i.e., the "Man of Steel" version. His favorite era was the JB-Wolfman-Jurgen's stretch of Superman comics.
Once again, don't let some dopes over on another board get you down. Those types always take glee in denouncing you before of you status in this industry as a legendary creator. They love to drown out the fans of your work on those boards, as well. It probably makes them shiver in delight if they were to think that they got under your skin.
Let me see if I conprehend what you may be getting at.
The error the fanboys are making is this. Pitting super-group A against villians B makes story X. Pitting super-group C against the same villians B will still make story X.
Of course this is nutty. Super-group A will react to conditions differently than super-group C when faced with villian B. A "real world" example of this would be a Spider-Man Vs. Sandman story is different than a Fantastic Four Vs. Sandman story.
Indeed, a Spider-Man Vs. Sandman story in one issue is not the same Spider-Man Vs. Sandman story in another issue simply because they have a different plot.
Maybe I don't understand what the fanboys are trying to say!!!
Dana: "From what I've read of this storyline, so far...it's nothing like an X-Men story(I don't see it becoming any more like one down the road, either)."
B-but, Dana... It has that "X" on the covers!
I agree, it is NOTHING like an X-Men story. It's pure Justice League to me. I don't think you could replace Batman with Cyclops, or Superman with Colossus. It wouldn't be the same story at all.
Again, the people saying such nonsense are dopes. The average reader, oblivious to Internet message board trolls and their ilk, and the fans know that this "JLA" arc is good and fun stuff.
I suppose the closest one could get at this point would be to compare Crucifer's group with the Hellfire Club or with the Morlocks. I don't think you guys did a Morlock story though did you?
Taking Superman out so early could be used as an arguement for making the team less powerful to seem more X-Men like. But it's still hard to interconnect Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter with their X-Men counterparts. I don't think I could make it fit personally.
I mean who would you have as comparative anyway?
Batman=Wolverine
Martian Manhunter=Kitty Pryde + Professor X combined?
Wonder Woman=Storm
Superman=Colossus
Atom=Beast
Flash=Nightcrawler
Faith=Jean Grey
Green Lantern=Cyclops
I don't see it being comparable personally, and I don't really see any possible storyline comparissons with the exception of the villains. But I honestly don't see it there either.Plus you are throwing in a Doom patrol element on top of it. how do the Doom Patrol fit into the story scenario?
(...)tell me if you think the same sequence of events could have been done with the X-Men
Nightcrawler is visiting some gipsy friend that omen a terrible evil coming. Then bats -- no, shadow of bats -- come and take them away.
Wolverine is investigating the disappearance of some children (in Madripoor?), and notice the L mark in the wall close to one left by the kidnappers (the "L" of course has nothing to do with LEAGUE, is the roman number 50 -- the 50th Circle of Hell??? What the Hell!!!).
Cyclops is hanging out when he come across with a strange gang putting children inside a truck. After fighting he is mind controled, etc..
Storm and Banshee go after Nightcrawler but they only find an empty gipsy camp.
Prof X mentally peruses the signs left in the strange objects left in the camp but drops unconscious.
I think a certain fan group wants to see redone X-Men so any similarity between the Tenth Circle story and CC/JB's X-Men will be jumped on. And to be fair there are certain plot elements that could work in either team, e.g. the abduction of your metahumans (/mutants), but I couldn't really see the X-Men going up against vampires (they may have, but I've not read that many X-Men comics). Just using the numeral X for 10 is going to set these guys off.
Nightcrawler is visiting some gipsy friend that omen a terrible evil coming. Then bats -- no, shadow of bats -- come and take them away.
********Manitou Raven does not call in other characters to do what he does, he does it himself. If we are allowed to bring in other characters (remember, this has to be an X-Men story, not an X-Men plus others story) then it can become an Avengers tale, a Teen Titans tale, an Invaders tale, etc, etc.
Wolverine is investigating the disappearance of some children (in Madripoor?), and notice the L mark in the wall close to one left by the kidnappers (the "L" of course has nothing to do with LEAGUE, is the roman number 50 -- the 50th Circle of Hell??? What the Hell!!!).
*******Huh?
Cyclops is hanging out when he come across with a strange gang putting children inside a truck. After fighting he is mind controled, etc..
*******Yes, that could happen.
Storm and Banshee go after Nightcrawler but they only find an empty gipsy camp.
********How do Storm and Banshee know about Nightcrawler? Wonder Woman and J'Onn go to the last known location of Raven because J'Onn has "sensed" somethng amiss. What brings Storm and Banshee there?
Prof X mentally peruses the signs left in the strange objects left in the camp but drops unconscious.
*******You can't get to this point without the above point, and as noted the above point does not work.
Cyclops kidnaps Jean by the end of book 1.
******Easy to type, not so easy to accomplish.
Now try without giving characters abilities they don't have, or bringing in other characters as subs for those abilities.
********Manitou Raven does not call in other characters to do what he does, he does it himself. If we are allowed to bring in other characters (remember, this has to be an X-Men story, not an X-Men plus others story) then it can become an Avengers tale, a Teen Titans tale, an Invaders tale, etc, etc.
I can't fight this one, but it's a small change.
Wolverine is investigating the disappearance of some children (in Madripoor?), and notice the L mark in the wall close to one left by the kidnappers (the "L" of course has nothing to do with LEAGUE, is the roman number 50 -- the 50th Circle of Hell??? What the Hell!!!).
*******Huh?
I was kidding with the "L" stuff. And Wolverine investigating isn't an unnatural thing.
********How do Storm and Banshee know about Nightcrawler? Wonder Woman and J'Onn go to the last known location of Raven because J'Onn has "sensed" somethng amiss. What brings Storm and Banshee there?
Professor X sensed when Nightcrawler was kidnapped, then sent Storm and Banshee to check the place he "saw" in his mind.
Prof X mentally peruses the signs left in the strange objects left in the camp but drops unconscious.
*******You can't get to this point without the above point, and as noted the above point does not work.
Does it work now?
Cyclops kidnaps Jean by the end of book 1.
******Easy to type, not so easy to accomplish.
Jean is a telepath. She would sense something was wrong with Scott the moment she saw him. In fact, she would not even have to see him -- she is "attuned" to Scott. She would sense his approach, and that something was wrong, long before he was able to attack her.
But this is a pointless exercise -- and emphasizes my point in posing the question in the first place. One can take any story and extract the characters, replacing them with others who have been pounded into the necessary shape to fit. But one is not going to end up with the same story. This is why I said wait until the whole JLA arc was done -- in any single part of it you can probably substitue X-Men for JLAers -- but will the whole thing come together as the same story?
I don't remember Wolverine doing any sort of investigative work during the JB run (maybe you could count the Mariko stalking, but whatever). You can't just lump in a bunch of other crap that was added to the character post-JB to make your comparison.
Ha! Warmed over X-Men. I love idiots, they give us so much to laugh at!
Sadly, these midget-minded malcontents most certainly saw the association with the roman numeral "X" with the "X-Men", and to their sub-standard logic, it must mean that this JLA arc is the same as the X-Men. I mean come on, the same writer/artist team worked on both books, they must be almost indistinguishable.
Its simply astounding how much limited thought comes out of people. And as if that wasn't enough, they feel the need to advertise their "brilliance" through the internet.
she is "attuned" to Scott
You're right. Thinking better, Jean/Phoenix would be better in Green Lantern's place.
Ending the game here (my sole intention was to show it IS possible do --by now-- an X-Men story), I'm really pleased as the 10th Circle story progress. And no, I don't think it an X-Men story.
So....it's possible to turn "The Tenth Circle" into an X-Men story if we completely change who the characters are, add new powers, and shuffle around story points. Ummm....what the fuck?
Its simply astounding how much limited thought comes out of people.
********
Consciously or otherwise, many of these people think they can do the job better than those actually hired to do the job. In some cases, they may even be right! But in many cases, they act only to prove their own lack of imagination. It was Roger Stern who pointed out to me, once upon a time, that so many of the people who post to the InterNet cannot figure out how they would tell the stories we are telling, so therefore (naturally) cannot figure out how we are telling the stories we are telling. The fact that they can only come up with dumb, or stupid, or lame ways to address certain issues means they assume we can do no better. We've all seen the "This is so dumb! They are obviously going to. . . " kinds of posts. Sometimes we actually do the dumb things. No one is perfect. Mostly, not though. After all, if comics were really being written as badly as some folk claim, why would these same folk come back month after month?
<<<<<So....it's possible to turn "The Tenth Circle" into an X-Men story if we completely change who the characters are, add new powers, and shuffle around story points. Ummm....what the fuck?>>>>
Good point. When you look at it that way, it's possible to turn the Tenth Circle story into an Avengers, Teen Titan, or even a Defenders story.
It's still early, but I find it difficult to imagine another group of characters fitting into the story without some major adjustments.
I find it difficult to imagine another group of characters fitting into the story without some major adjustments.
*******
Early it may be, but you have already seen enough, I think, to support your statement. When I write, I write from character . I am a Type A writer -- I ask "Can I tell good Captain Fonebone stories?" -- and when Carlin gave me the role call for the JLA, I crafted my story around the abiliies of each of them. I wanted the Atom to do something only he, of the members of the JLA, could do. Likewise J'Onn, or Wonder Woman, or Superman. As much as possible, given overlapping abilities, I wanted each to play a unique role. The story depended upon those unique roles (as you will see more and more as we get deeper into it), and lifting out any or all of the characters to replace them with others would have a profound effect on the overall shape of the tale.
You could make it an alan moore story,if the vampire time travels,turns into a bat and crashes into pre-batman Bruce Wayne's window.Or not.
To be honest, I haven't heard any mention of similarites between the x-men and JLa.Not a negative word,in fact.
So....it's possible to turn "The Tenth Circle" into an X-Men story if we completely change who the characters are, add new powers, and shuffle around story points. Ummm....what the fuck?
I said BY NOW, man. Even John said that "early it may be".
The different sets of characters from the X-Men and the JLA would respond to the setting differently, thus shaping the story. You may get similar themes (doubtful, but possible), but not the same story.
And of course I'm not following directions. The challenge was to wait 'til the entire JLA run was out. If I remember, I'll revisit this topic in a few weeks. Most likely, I'll say the same thing.
If it were an older Marvel tale I could see the X-men being introduced as the doom patrol are!
I also think that Doom Patrol is just left over wheelie and the chopper bunch stories- but since I have never read the title they should all be new to me!
This message has been edited by Dwayne_Ferguson on Apr 9, 2004 2:25 PM
The Mischevious Mike N. (Login ArgentFox) Byrne Victim
Re: JLA = Warmed Over X-Men?
April 9 2004, 2:53 PM
I agree, any group can be set into similar circumstances at the beginning of the adventure but because characters are (hopefully) individuals once you start moving them along the story will go along vastly different tracts.
And there is no doppleganger for The Atom in X-Men, so that whole thread goes bye-bye.
I haven't mentioned how glad I am for The Atom in this series, by the way. I don't read JLA regularly to know if he's been in there often, but a good Atom story is hard for me to find these days. Thanks JB!
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience and Experience comes from... Bad Judgement.
So -- here's a poser: Using the X-Men as they were when Chris and I were doing the book (Cyclops, Phoenix, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Banshee, Colossus and Professor X -- and even Kitty if you're so inclined) would it be possible to tell the same story as the one in JLA 94 thru 99?
Watch as the story unfolds, and tell me if you think the same sequence of events could have been done with the X-Men, or if, indeed, the story is (like most of my stories) specific to the characters involved. Could you lift out the JLA and drop in the X-Men? Or would that make a totally, or near totally different story.
=============================
Based on the two issues we've seen so far, I'd say that if you had wanted to tell this story when you and Chris Claremont were working on X-Men together (or you by yourself when you were writing X:HY), you probably could have pulled it off -- with some significant changes. The key, though, is that it would have taken significant changes to make it an X-Men story, and in that case, it would have been a significantly different story, or it would have felt forced and artificial, because you would have been telling your story, not an X-Men story per se.
As I said, though, I think you (John Byrne) could have pulled it off without it feeling too artifical because YOU would have remained true to the characters by letting them dictate how the story fit, rather than bending the characters and characterization to fit YOUR story intentions. Too many writers don't take this approach, which is why Tony Stark and Iron Man have disappeared from print, only to be replaced by a character out of a Tom Clancy book who happens to own some spiffy high-tech gear.
Feh.
Pay no attention to the ass-clowns, JB -- the current JLA arc is a JLA story, it reads like a JLA story, and it feels like it could ONLY be a JLA story. Yeah, you COULD have made it work elsewhere, but it would have been a different story. I don't see any of the JLAers being analagous for any of the X-Men, and anybody who thinks they DO see anything along those lines is perhaps reading a bit too much into it.
I suppose it'd be possible to rework this into a late 70s/early 80s-style X-Men story, but there'd have to be a lot of juggling and shuffling beforehand. If I have to compare the Tenth Circle to any previous Claremont and/or Byrne material, it'd be Skeeter and that X-Men story with Dracula...and that's mostly 'cause all three involve vampires.
It is obviously a previously unused X-Men story with the JLA standing in for the Xers except with different characters and abilities. Oh yeah and the vampire thing. And the Doom Patrol. Other than that...
John, as previously stated, its a pointless exercise. There's nothing I've seen thus far in JLA that has evoked any thoughts of the work you and Chris did in Uncanny. For one thing, that work was done over twenty years ago! I've looked at my Essential X-Men volumes recently as we've discussed how your artwork has evolved over the years, and the progression has been astounding. As much as I loved those stories when I was twelve, as much as I enjoyed your work then, they do not hold up to the work you're currently doing on JLA. And that's not a knock on the quality of your work on Uncanny, for that was state of the art for it's time.
People just have too much time on their hands. Can't please 'em all, no matter what you do.
I don't think the JLA story is warmed over X-Men. Nor do I think the X-Men could be substituted for the JLA in this story either. Whoever is talking this trash needs to pull that bur out of their ass, so that they may become a better person to be around. I say these people are picking at you, John, for no other reason than to pick on you. Man I can't stand a bully. To me, and I'm sure a lot of others, you are one of the great comic book creators. On a personal level, I probably wouldn't have persued a career in comic books, if it hadn't been for your work.
I think there are two elements of story (ok, there are more, but stick with me) Plot and Character.
You could broadly fit the plot into any team, substituting broadly similar (in plot terms) characters and have the 'larger bits' of the story proceed similarly.
It's the 'smaller stuff', the interactions, the detail of the hows and whys, that would change. Actually, this story (so far - we've only seen two issues!) could be a pretty cool X-Men or Avengers or FF story, but in the end it'd be a different tale. Much like any time a recurring villain appears in a different book.
Interesting!
____________________________________________
You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different.
It is obviously a previously unused X-Men story with the JLA standing in for the Xers except with different characters and abilities. Oh yeah and the vampire thing. And the Doom Patrol. Other than that...
*******
You joke, but the "logic" of your joke is the kind of thing I encounter all the time. When I did WONDER WOMAN there were folk who announced as a certainty that I would be doing "left-over She-Hulk stories". One guy even said the first time Diana "broke the fourth wall" he would drop the book.
These were probably some of the same idiots who said NEXT MEN was X-MEN and LAB RATS was NEXT MEN. (Same people, some of them, who will tell you WATCHMEN has "nothing in common" with the Charlton characters from which it is derived.)
Well...I think the accusation that this was a "leftover" X story has more to do with the way fans of today have been conditioned. They/we are so used to writing that fills the gaps and flaws of the story with actions and intentions that shouldn't flow naturally from the characters. That they/we just assume that any character can foot the bill within any type of story.
The real tragedy in this situation isn't just that JB is accused (wrongly) of lazy writing. It's that most of the fans today support the habit of lazy writing. Which is hilarious in that each and every detractor is guilty of enjoying that which they condemn!?!? And people wonder why I actively try to get banned at the DC boards?
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, JB. But some of us "get it".
Well...I think the accusation that this was a "leftover" X story has more to do with the way fans of today have been conditioned. They/we are so used to writing that fills the gaps and flaws of the story with actions and intentions that shouldn't flow naturally from the characters. That they/we just assume that any character can foot the bill within any type of story.
The real tragedy in this situation isn't just that JB is accused (wrongly) of lazy writing. It's that most of the fans today support the habit of lazy writing. Which is hilarious in that each and every detractor is guilty of enjoying that which they condemn!?!? And people wonder why I actively try to get banned at the DC boards?
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, JB. But some of us "get it".
*************
You may have a good point here. For years I have been complaining about the slow (and sometimes not so slow) erosion of the very foundations of comics. First we saw Marvel so dilute the term "mutant" that just about anyone with superpowers came to be viewed as one -- and even when they actually were supposed to be mutants their portrayal often had nothing to do with the very simple and straightfoward "rules" laid down by Stan Lee. Later we saw another of Stan's rules chipped away -- that the name of the character should tell you who they are, or what they do, or both. Now, the structure of comicbook storytelling is being shredded, both by "fans" who think stories are at best frameworks for pages of talking heads and at worst merely springboards for slugfests, and writers who are interested only in the collected versions, and pay no heed to the proper form of monthly, serial fiction. (And let's not even waste our breath on the "monthlies" that come out 8 times a year. . . )
There are an awful lot of "fans" it seems, who are too dumb, too shallow, too unsophisticated, or all of the above to know when they are being sold a bill of goods, and too many "creators" who are all too eager to whip out their latest bottle of snake oil when the yokels line up.
Matt Hawes wrote: "JB, I would ignore those so-called critics. I promise you, they are not the majority. I hope that you don't let them get to you, as that is what they want to do."
I agree with Matt and the others, JB. The ones at those other internet boards are not citing any examples of how your JLA story is an X-Men story. This is why I don't bother reading the other comic book boards (especially the DC Boards). They don't show any proof about their statements. They just say, "Byrne is bad." And do nothing to substantiate it.
They are not a real comic book audience. They're a bunch of cowardly whiners with nothing better to do.
Well, after some thought it occured to me that kidnapping kids looking for someone with a metagene or whatever DOES sound like something an X-Men foe might do, but that's a long way from saying the JLA arc is a warmed over X-Men story.
Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use.
The "metagene" is a special something in those people who get super powers. So if, sor instance, Peter Parker had been a DC character, it would now be said that the spider bite worked on him because he had a "metagene" which gave him a predisposition to the effect. Lucky, really. . . .
The weird thing about the whole "metagene" concept is that it's not terribly efficient, in terms of answering the question of how so many people in the DCU got super powers. A disproportionately large (compared to, say, Marvel) percentage of DC characters don't have super powers (Batman or Green Lantern, for instance) or get their powers from being non-humans (Superman, J'Onn J"Onzz or Wonder Woman). The "metagene" might have given Barry Allen a predisposition to react appropriately to that bath of chemicals (and Wally West the same predisposition!!), but did it give Hal Jordan a predisposition to being a Green Lantern? Seems like if that were so, it would be that which Abin Sur looked for, not a "man without fear".
File it alongside the Speed Force and that "imp" who really gave Barry and Wally their powers. . . .
So -- here's a poser: Using the X-Men as they were when Chris and I were doing the book (Cyclops, Phoenix, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Banshee, Colossus and Professor X -- and even Kitty if you're so inclined) would it be possible to tell the same story as the one in JLA 94 thru 99?
-----
It would be impossible to tell this story as an X-Men story, and here is the reason why:
At their core, the JLA and X-Men are two very different concepts. The JLA are a group of people who live and function in their daily lives apart, in different cities across the country, and who come together when needed to fight the good fight. The X-men on the other hand, are a family at their core who all live together and operate from the same place, the Xavier Institute.
Thus far the plot has played very specifially to the fact that all of the heroes are esentially operating separately, in their own cities. Superman is captured in Metropolis, Batman is working the crime scene in Gotham, etc. The fact that the kids are being kidnapped in all of these cities is really caught onto, by the JLA, by the fact that the heroes operate separately in those cities. So at its very core, the plot is being played out by the way the JLA itself works.
This really couldn't play out the same way with the X-Men, by the very fact that they operate from the Xavier Institute, together at all times (especially during the Byrne/Claremont run). Could John and Chris have done a vampire story? Yes. Could it have been THIS vampire story? No.
Does this come close to what you were getting at, JB?
Oh, and the fact that John and/or Chris have been somehow pining away for the past 20-some years to tell this story, and haven't before now, is the MOST ridiculuous part! If they had been, then wouldn't it have been as an X-Men story?? After all, that would probably be the biggest event in comics that could happen. Not, "hey, instead, let's take this untold X-Men story and try to tell it as a JLA story!"
-Mark
[typos]
This message has been edited by mmckay on Apr 10, 2004 12:52 PM This message has been edited by mmckay on Apr 10, 2004 12:33 PM
Interesting concept, trying to see if this story could be turned into an old "New X-Men" story. Even by the time you left the book, the X-Men were becoming more of a family-type group. That had been one of the main characteristics that I liked about the X-Men, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans and Fantastic Four. All of these groups had the additional factor that they liked being together. It wasn't just gathering to deal with a cosmic (world-wide, bigger than an individual can handle) threat.
People who automatically assume this is warmed-over old "New X-Men" aren't actually reading the story. The comics presented a few questions that I'm curious about, but I plan to read before worrying. I don't expect a TV show to tell me the answers ahead of time, so why should a comic? As a matter of fact, I tend to feel cheated when I know all of the answers too early.
BTW, I hadn't commented on 95 yet, but I was laughing so hard when Crucifer spewed Superman's blood. I love that kind of detail to a story. Well done.
Talking of the Meta-gene and the like - it's always kinda bugged me when someone says "thanks to my supra-geno-beno machine, your superpowers will not work in this room!"
That's fine for humans who have "superpowers" but to my thinking J'onn has [i] very normal abilities [/i] for a Martian!
The X-Men are a family, and for whatever reason, their stories always felt more, um, insular -- more separate from everything else in the Marvel Universe. Even when other heroes turned up in an X-Men story, it felt as though they were entering a parallel reality to their own. Moreover, when the X-Men stopped a threat to the entire world, the world didn't really seem to know much about it; they were very clandestine world-savers.
Conversely, the JLA is the DC Universe. They are central to it. Their adventures, therefore, have an entirely different flavor than X-Men stories, and they are not interchangeable. "The Tenth Circle" does not feel like an X-Men story in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
Incidentally, the Avengers are -- arguably, I guess -- 'Marvel's JLA', but I think the JLA and the Avengers are fairly different, too. The JLA just feels 'bigger' than the Avengers.
Oh, and the fact that John and/or Chris have been somehow pining away for the past 20-some years to tell this story, and haven't before now, is the MOST ridiculuous part! If they had been, then wouldn't it have been as an X-Men story?? After all, that would probably be the biggest event in comics that could happen. Not, "hey, instead, let's take this untold X-Men story and try to tell it as a JLA story!"
**********
It's interesting you should mention this. There was only one "left over" story, when I departed from the X-Men, and that was the big hoohah we had planned for UNCANNY 150. That would have been a Magneto story to end all Magneto stories ( no, not literally ), and I sometimes think back on that untold ( and now untellable ) tale, and think about how different the X-Men titles might be today, if we'd done it.
Certainly there would have been no way the whole Holocaust-survivor nonsense could have been shoehorned into Magneto after 150. "My" Magneto was an irredemable rat bastard, and at the time Chris saw him the same way. *
*Chris used to call and give me dramatic readings of his scripts. When he read Magneto lines he would go into what can only be described as a Wicked Witch of the West voice. After he "revealed" that Magneto was really a noble, tortured soul fighting only for the rights of his people, I used to ask Chris if Magneto still sounded like that. JB-)
It's interesting you should mention this. There was only one "left over" story, when I departed from the X-Men, and that was the big hoohah we had planned for UNCANNY 150.
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And you see, that would have been less than a year after you'd left the book - not 20+ years! Setting aside the fact that your only untold story was very X-Men specific, any story you guys had left over from that time, you might very likely go, "Huh, what were we thinking there? We could definitely come up with something better now!"
Oh, good story, BTW. We might not have suffered the years of Magneto being headmaster of the school...
-Mark
This message has been edited by mmckay on Apr 10, 2004 10:40 PM
"Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use."
What I like about the JLA story through the first half is the "gathering storm" feeling. These individual problems don't seem to need the full JLA. Each situation so far seems to require only the individual heroes -- Batman handling a seemingly simple investigation, Superman taking a closer look at the movers, Atom checking out the casting stones. JLA is about titans coming together to handle something Really Big. When they band together, it's news. What I like in this story is that we know something big is coming, but they clearly don't. And I don't have a clear sense pof how they're going to figure it out.
The CC/JB X-Men stick together. They even sleep in the same house. I don't think an X-Men story could have the same build-up that we're being treated to in the first half of "The Tenth Circle".
The X-Men are a team in a state of constant siege. Not just from their enemies, but from society. JLA characters have a different feel to me. They are more establishment to X-Men's outisders. "The Tenth Circle" works for me because the JLA are a good contrast against the Crucifier and Doom Patrol.
For me personally, I didn't grow up on Superman and Batman, so my expectations going into this were pretty open. But I certainly didn't expect to see a noirish horror story unfolding. Just like my experience reading "Generations 3", I am pleasantly surprised at how I can get really into this story and these characters even though I don't have a strong nostalgic connection.
I was very much into the CC/JB X-Men run and have been looking forward to JLA for some time. It hasn't disappointed.
"Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use."
I always think that the JLA is story driven wheras the X-Men is character driven. In part this might be due to the fact that many of the JLA members (like the Avengers) have their own titles. The emphasis has to be put more on storyline than character development.
(This might also explain why I enjoyed Morrisons JLA stories but hated his X-Men.(I must admit I did not read his X-Men title for long.))
"Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use."
Marvel and DC set up a joint copyright on the word "superhero". This is not really legal on all kinds of levels, but if they decide to enforce it, it is simply too much trouble, and too expensive, to fight.
"Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use."
Actually, I believe "metahuman" is DC's answer to Marvel's "mutant", since Marvel owns the term as it pertains to comics.
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Actually you are wrong on both counts. >>
Is it just an Internet thing in which someone with secondhand knowledge of a subject will challenge someone who has firsthand knowledge of it? I see this all the time these days.
There's also the almost instinctive urge to "correct" someone and of course preface it with "actually." I don't know how many times I've expressed an opinion online and had it countered with an "actually" statement. Me: "Iron Giant is one of my favorite animated films of recent years." Poster: "Actually, Film X is much better."
To be fair, the poor chap didn't say metahuman" is DC's answer to Marvel's "mutant", he said he believed it to be the case. Where I'm from, the words I believe imply just that: belief.
He may well be wrong of course, but he's entitled to his beliefs, no?
Belief/opinion does not always equal truth, and if it's about something that can be proven (or disproven), it's incumbent upon those that know the truth to correct that person, so that untruths do not mislead others.
"Belief/opinion does not always equal truth, and if it's about something that can be proven (or disproven), it's incumbent upon those that know the truth to correct that person, so that untruths do not mislead others."
...which is just what JB did. I just don't see the point in anyone else putting the boot in afterwards.
Oh, nice picture, by the way.
ian
(starting to suspect he needs to pony up some money before he'll get an avatar to work)
"Something someone at DC concocted in an attempt to turn their characters into "metahumans", a word they can own, unlike "superhero" which anyone can use."
Actually, I believe "metahuman" is DC's answer to Marvel's "mutant", since Marvel owns the term as it pertains to comics.
**********
Actually you are wrong on both counts. >>
Is it just an Internet thing in which someone with secondhand knowledge of a subject will challenge someone who has firsthand knowledge of it? I see this all the time these days.
I was under the assumption that "metahuman" was DC's answer to Marvel's "mutant". I had heard that Marvel owns the term "mutant" as it pertains to comics.
The metahuman assumption comes from Invasion-era DC. When they explained that almost all the people who have powers are born with a metagene that under stressful or life-threatening situations will cause the person to unlock these powers. Similar to Marvel's mutants who are born with their powers and they begin to form during adolescence (when their body is going through it's awkward period). During Invasion, DC was lauding the metagene idea all over the place.
As for the Marvel owning the "mutant" term, that's something I read on that Newsarama thread. And yes, I think it's stupid. I have not heard any evidence to prove it's true or not. However, my local comic shop owner mentioned that Marvel put pressure on Malibu because of "Ex-Mutants". (And yes he did mention it, and no, I don't know if he's informed correctly or not. So I'm taking his word on that).
I shall refrain from making such bold statements in the future.
It was my understanding that "metahuman" is the DCU terms for any super-powered person, not just mutants. (I read into this a sort of embarrassment to say "superhero" aloud, but that's just my interpretation.)
While Marvel may not literally own "mutant," the term is so closely identified with the X-Men that another publisher might want to avoid the term.
While Marvel may not literally own "mutant," the term is so closely identified with the X-Men that another publisher might want to avoid the term.
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Marvel muddied those waters long ago. If, indeed, the word was closely associated with the X-Men, there might be possibilities of at least enough nuisance suits to keep other publishers from using the term -- but it has become so much a synonym for "anyone with superpowers" in the MU that even that case has been diluted.
(This reminds me once again of a question raised in all seriousness by the editor of OMAC. Originally I planned to have OMAC change history by preventing various Golden Age DC characters from getting their powers -- crippling Jay Garrick when he was in high school, for instance -- but decided just as I was about to begin work that I wanted to make the series more accessible to civilians, so opted to have OMAC kill Hitler instead. "Can we do that?" asked the editor. "Doesn't Marvel own Hitler?")
What seems to be at the center of this "debate" is nothing more than the simple fact that Chris and I did the story. Since the last time we worked together was X-MEN, this means the JLA must be an X-MEN story.
This demonstrates the muddled thinking of some "fans", who do not begin to even comprehend what a "story" is, but also indicates the selective myopia we have seen elsewhere. By this line of "logic" DARK KNIGHT was warmed-over DAREDEVIL (Frank Miller writing and drawing a costumed urban vigilante), TEEN TITANS was warmed-over AVENGERS (George Perez drawing and co-plotting the adventures of a group of costumed superheroes) and FANTASTIC FOUR was warmed over CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN (Jack Kirby draws and co-plots tales of a quartet of fearless adventurers).
If we overlook the fact that the good stories -- such as this JLA arc -- are character driven not merely plot driven, then clearly just about anything could be warmed-over just about anything else.
As I see it meta-human is a term that can be applied to any super powered individual. Heroes,aliens, criminals, mutants, mutates and mystics can all be meta-humans.
As for the topic at hand. I received my comics on Saturday (Westfield once a month) and have read JLA 94 & 95 twice since them. Doesnt read like a recycled X-Men plot to me. It has a very JLA feel to it, especially the way various JLAers were involved with the same case at the start but from different perspectives. That's something you dont see much of in the JLA these days, much less the X-Men.
Mike
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."- Teddy Roosevelt
s I see it meta-human is a term that can be applied to any super powered individual. Heroes,aliens, criminals, mutants, mutates and mystics can all be meta-humans.
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."- Teddy Roosevelt
"Metahuman" smacks of the Creeping Embarassment that vexes the business these days. DC coined the term to give themselves a word they could "own" -- "superhero" being a preexisting word, no one can technically own it -- but it also provided some fans with yet another way to look down their noses at the rest of "us". "Superhero" is such a childish word, after all, compared to the mature "metahuman". (Sarcasm off)
That superhero was a preexisting word means, too, that it already had a comfortable nitch in the language -- it did not prompt a "Huh?" response, even from the uninitiated. "Metahuman", tho? Every time I hear it I want to ask "Where?"
C'mon guys! Let's cut the crap, you little sycophants... i opened JLA 94 and it had people flying, helloooo!!! Enough is enough, this is clearly a X-Men rip off, it's revolting - Maybe you just don't have the highly demanding taste i do, but this is clearly warmed over microwave crapolla! Blergh!
And Chris, are you reading this? The whole thing is printed on paper, PAPER ! Oh, really clever! 10 pts for the originality, Chris! Fer christ's sake... it's about time everyone recognised Claremont clearly gave all he had to give: As far as stars go Chris Claremont is a white dwarf, all the damned hydrogen is gone - Buuuhhh!!!
«Obligatory Note For The Sarcasm Impared: "This was sarcasm"»
