Did my usual swing by the DC boards to see what they're saying, and apart from the usual "It's an 80s comic" and "It's boring" I found more evidence of 'know-it-all-ism.' One of the complaints was that John didn't explain Nudge and Grunt's situation. You're supposed to want to find out (if John has done his job.) I imagine these people couldn't have watched the Sixth Sense.
These are the folk I have commented on before, who have memorized every comma of previous continuity and feel cheated if they aren't three steps ahead of the writer (so they can then complain that everything was "too predictable"),
They hate mysteries. Mysteries bring them down to the level of the mere shlubs at their local comic shop, making it impossible to lord it over them with vastly superior knowledge since the playing field has been leveled, and the "experts" know no more than the casual readers.
I don't see anything particulary wrong with having a broad and deep knowledge of a topic you love. Rather it seems, to me, that these particular people have lost the ability to enjoy adding new details to their knowledge of their hobby.
There was an interesting debate on a DC mailing list I'm on - it appears that the slightly older readers are more open to newer interpretations of DC characters than the slightly younger readers, who do not fully appreciate how fluid the DCU has historically been.
There was an interesting debate on a DC mailing list I'm on - it appears that the slightly older readers are more open to newer interpretations of DC characters than the slightly younger readers, who do not fully appreciate how fluid the DCU has historically been.
---
The difference, IMO, is that the older readers have already experienced this fluidity and know it's not the end of the world. For the younger readers these changes are the first ones being made to their favorites and it's frightening.
JB wrote:
These are the folk I have commented on before, who have memorized every comma of previous continuity and feel cheated if they aren't three steps ahead of the writer (so they can then complain that everything was "too predictable"),
----
If you ARE three steps ahead of the writer, then you shouldn't be reading comics anymore, don't you think!? You've gotten everything you can out of it at point, and it might be time to move on.
Of course, they haven't gotten everything out of it, have they? Because at that point they're just in for the ego boost! It's sad, isn't it?
-Mark
[typo]
This message has been edited by mmckay on Apr 15, 2004 11:53 AM
I feel if you are three steps ahead of the writer, you shouldn't be reading their book because they are a poor writer. One of the ways I judge a book is on how predictable the story is. If everything is telegraphed, why bother?
This is one reason why this week is a good comics week. JLA and JSA are both telling stories where I don't know where the hell they are going but I'm enjoying finding out.
Mike Nebeker - Super Genuis Good Judgement comes from Experience and Experience comes from... Bad Judgement.
For a me, a lot of the fun in comics (particularly when the status quo used to exist for pre-80s stories) isn't so much the final out come, but is more the route the story takes to get to the outcome -- we know that Batman must escape the death-trap because there is another issue out next month, but how exactly does he escape and does he do anything cool in the process
I don't see how they can find it boring(a lot happened). I really enjoyed it...the Batman/vampire melee was pretty cool...I loved seeing the Doom Patrol getting back together at their base...and Cliff "naked"(skinless) was great. I KNEW the "couple" that the Patrol was looking for were Nudge and Grunt....I just didn't know how they came to know this odd duo(now I do, of course)...now I'm interested in why the Chief was looking to "acquire" Grunt. More mysteries for the Atom, Superman bringing Wonder Woman to the enemy and getting her killed? Bad Superman! Bad!
I loved it. Those who found it boring, should probably rethink their continued collecting of comics...obviously they are too old and jaded to enjoy a really good comic yarn.
I don't see how they can find it boring(a lot happened).
***************
Again, it seems we are dealing with that mentality that can find a story involving only if they feel "participatory" -- that is, if they have already figured out what happened before it happened. By declaring the story "boring" they excuse themselves from having to reveal that don't know what's going on, and are therefore no "smarter" than the regular readers.
I read this last night and loved it. The tension is ramping up, and there are enough puzzles and plot threads to satisfy. The action is great, and with JLA, there doesnt seem to be time (or even the ability) to do exposition, character development, or costume-less characterization.
I have been noticing these things a little more as compared to when I was a kid. Rereading JB's FF run was great, since there was so much character development that took place apart from the action.
This makes JLA a slightly different read from the "normal" JB book.
Todd
This message has been edited by thrawnqq on Apr 16, 2004 1:45 PM
One of the things about JLA is that you really can't do much with the characters "characterization" other than portray them accurately by personality. Many of them have books of their own where character development is more rightly the concern. JLA is an all-star jam and as long as Batman acts like Batman, that's all I need.
One of the things about JLA is that you really can't do much with the characters "characterization" other than portray them accurately by personality. Many of them have books of their own where character development is more rightly the concern. JLA is an all-star jam and as long as Batman acts like Batman, that's all I need.
**************
You touch here on something I used to run into when doing AVENGERS and AVENGERS WEST COAST. Fans seemed to want "character development", not understanding that such a thing was not really an option, except for the "secondary" characters. the characters that "belonged" to the book. Thus, I could do pretty much anything I wanted to with the Vision, the Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man and the like, but in the case of Thor, or Captain America, I could only follow the lead set by their home titles. (Some fans would even suggest that, since they did not like what was happening in the home titles, I should just ignore them and do the characters "right" -- a frame of mind shared by far too many "professionals", alas.)
Again, it seems we are dealing with that mentality that can find a story involving only if they feel "participatory" -- that is, if they have already figured out what happened before it happened. By declaring the story "boring" they excuse themselves from having to reveal that don't know what's going on, and are therefore no "smarter" than the regular readers.
>>
I've noticed something similar to this on boards for SMALLVILLE and ANGEL, for example. Someone will not just speculate about what will happen but will state what should happen and then end with, "Of course, the writers aren't that creative" -- a rather arrogant and stupid conclusion given that the writers are paid to come up with these episodes and the viewers aren't. They will then become "disappointed" because the creators didn't read their minds.
There was a running subplot in SMALLVILLE in which a mysterious young man befriended Lana. Many people online assumed it was a young Bruce Wayne, even pointing out "clues" ("He's named Adam -- like Adam West -- and his last name is Knight, like the Dark Knight.") Now, I can't speculate as to whether the creators intended for misdirection but I find it sad that when that revelation didn't occur, more than a few fans felt "cheated."
A part of me would like to see an end to spoilers and to even speculation. The end of an episode's cliffhanger should be suspensful because you *don't* know what's going to happen because you aren't the show's creators.
I've noticed something similar to this on boards for SMALLVILLE and ANGEL, for example. Someone will not just speculate about what will happen but will state what should happen and then end with, "Of course, the writers aren't that creative" -- a rather arrogant and stupid conclusion given that the writers are paid to come up with these episodes and the viewers aren't. They will then become "disappointed" because the creators didn't read their minds.
**************
I began to notice this phenomenon very early in my career -- when the people besotted with such thinking were a much smaller percentage of the audience. This weird notion that if a story does not come out as the reader expected , the story is somehow "wrong*.
If the story takes a 90° turn into the ozone, and the end does not connect with the beginning, the reader might have a point. But if the reader simply failed to guess where the writer was going -- well, isn't that a good thing?
Alas, too many readers suffer that delusion of participation I have mentioned in other posts. They think that by buying and reading the books they are somehow part of the creative process. Once in 10,000 issues this might be so -- but on a monthly basis?
Fans are an absolutely vital part of any entertainment industry. Without fans, it's Tinkerbell time. But fans are not part of the creative process. They are consumers. And there is nothing wrong with that!!
Thanks for producing JLA again this week. This has been a crappy week as far as current world events are concerned, so it was good to have some quality escapism.
1) I was wondering if you could please post two pages of pencils. My favorite pages were the shot of Batman grabbing the spear from the vampire while delivering a sidekick to the vampire's windpipe. The second page I would love to see is the awesome shot where Grunt goes beserk only to be calmed by Nudge. I like the look on Grunt's face as Nudge gets through to him.
2) I have a question about the colors. Did you request that the colorist color large portions of the art in only one color? The red in the Batcave (which seemed to make the cross look gold), the blue in the flashback scenes,the green when GL used his power, the green in the Doom Patrol HQ....
I wish the colorist had colored everything individually instead of coloring entire panels in bright colors. The effect looks like everything is inside a dance club. Or as if I was looking through yellow, blue, green, red color filters. Maybe it was an example of modern coloring technology that I didn't understand. But it gave the appearance of laziness in my opinion. I like the post where you said that the colorist should enhance the art, not obscure it.
Is David Baron going to be the colorist for Doom Patrol? I ask this because I would hate to see the heroes constantly bathed in a green light. It would be disappointing to think you finally got the inker you wanted then got everything colored crazy.
I would also like to say that the scenes with Wonder Woman and the sword were great. I liked the panels where Crucifer is stabbed (I thought for sure he was toast)and then nonchalantly extracts the sword.
Keep up the great work! I liked the story this issue. Everything is developing and I am finding out more and more. When Larry suddenly got the "nudge" to go to Miami I laughed out loud. I had been wondering about that Miami line of dialogue from Rita in JLA #94. How embarrassing for Negative Man. I bet Cliff will never let him live that one down!
Well, I read JLA96 during lunch today. It is sooooo great to have TWO JB issues shipping in the same month. I'm really enjoying the book.
HOWEVER...the balloon placement thing is REALLY starting to bother me as all the balloons seem to be placed over figures and important background elements, while leaving large dead areas in the panels (which is were the balloons would normally go, I guess).
I'm actually surprised by this, as most books that Mike Carlin edits have DANDY balloon placement...I used to use some of Mike's Superman titles (especially those lettered by John Constanza) as a guide when doing my own comic strip to see how to wrap balloons, place them, etc.
But...those are MINOR gripes over a series which has been totally awsome and has kept me begging for more!
HOWEVER...the balloon placement thing is REALLY starting to bother me as all the balloons seem to be placed over figures and important background elements, while leaving large dead areas in the panels (which is were the balloons would normally go, I guess).
***************
I haven't been happy with the balloon placement, as you know, but in this Brave New World in which we live, there's not much I can do, short of policing every page until it comes off the presses -- and frankly, I'd rather devote that time and energy to drawing more pages!
I'm just sorry that we've only three more issues left. Oh for the days of 22-month runs...
****************
Careful how you phrase that! Next thing you know, we'll have the real world equivalents of "The Simpsons" Comic Book Guy telling their customers I quit JLA because "Byrne never lasts more than 6 issues!"
I'm so glad that we have the opportunity to see some of the JLA work in both pencil form and black and white. I'm not the biggest fan of the monochromatic palettes being used, espcecially on the splash page...
Careful how you phrase that! Next thing you know, we'll have the real world
equivalents of "The Simpsons" Comic Book Guy telling their customers I quit JLA
because "Byrne never lasts more than 6 issues!"
***********************
HA!! That's one rumor i'd get a kick out of hearing.
Honestly, i hope you return to do another JLA story
in the near future...
Now that the graphics can be posted again, could you please post the two pencilled pages I was asking you about earlier this week....
"I was wondering if you could please post two pages of pencils. My favorite pages were the shot of Batman grabbing the spear from the vampire while delivering a sidekick to the vampire's windpipe. The second page I would love to see is the awesome shot where Grunt goes beserk only to be calmed by Nudge. I like the look on Grunt's face as Nudge gets through to him."
Thanks for your time, John. I appreciate your efforts on this board!
An artist friend of mine went with me to get comics last week. I'd been telling him about the JLA work and sent him links to this site. Apparently he hadn't bothered to look at the links because when he saw my copy of JLA 96, he quickly looked around for the preceding issues. He could only find issue #95 in stock, but will keep an eye out as the next issues appear.
He liked the combination of Jerry Ordway with John's pencils/layouts. Of course the first thing he asked when he saw issue #96 was, "Is that Ordway working on JLA?" He didn't immediately see JB's work on the book. This is a guy who can usually look at a piece of art and tell you who the penciller and inker were.
Either way, the end result was a sell to a satisfied customer.
I tried to find a copy of the Hawkman issue, but they were out of stock on that as well.
While I was in Atlanta (the Buckhead area to be more specific) I stopped in a shop. I'm not sure if the guy was the owner or what, be he was walking around with the staff as they were deciding what to take down from the latest issues shelves. (They had the current issues of all current titles along with months and years of back issues.) I didn't hear any negative Byrne comments, but it was interesting to listen to what they decided to keep up and what to put into storage. Oddly enough, to me, while they had a lot on the shelves, they didn't have a lot of boxed, back issue comics. They did have a large selection of books on comic book artists though.
YES! Those are the ones. Thank you, Mr. Byrne! Those were my two favorite pages. And they look amazing! Great Batman fight scene with the side kick and vampire staking! I liked the rendering and shading on the mask too.
I also like how you got real "human" emotion to come out of the face of that savage gorilla once it was calmed by Nudge's power.
I will freely admit, after years of searching for the right look for Batman, it all came together for me when I saw the "Batman: Deadend" fan film shown out in San Diego last year. That was a perfect Batman.
Try this link -- add http:// to the beginning -- maybe it's still there. . .
John,
I'm thoroughly enjoying this run. One of the things I appreciate is your use of 5+ panels per page. It makes the story longer. A lot happens per issue.
...even one of the "Boring Story" posters over there admitted that "Byrne's Art is Awesome!"
*************************************
It's amazing to me that they're still mostly of the midset that it's Chris's story and your art, JB. Few seem to have twigged to the idea of plot vs script...
____________________________________________
You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different.
John, what are the odds of you doing some work on Batman in the not-too-distant future?
*********************
Depends on all the various factors involved, such as editor, writer(if not me), inker, the shape and size of the project, etc.
I enjoy Batman -- he constantly vies with Captain America to be my favorite character -- but I have avoided a really long association with the character for fear of getting too "comfortable" with him. Don't want the readers getting used to it, either!
I enjoy Batman -- he constantly vies with Captain America to be my favorite character -- but I have avoided a really long association with the character for fear of getting too "comfortable" with him. Don't want the readers getting used to it, either!
************
I think your Cap is probably my favorite version. I was surprised when I saw you commenting in one thread that you thought Rubenstein really overshadowed your work. I think it was in relation to these pieces.
I remember being very happy with the way the finished product turned out overall. I definitely see John Byrne in those pieces. I guess I see you unhappy (at least I perceive it that way) with the way some of your product comes out with various inkers and I wonder why? I probably shouldn't ask that question as art is really all about personal preference and there may not be any really important specifics to the why and how.
If I were running DC I'd be pulling out all the stops to get JB on a Batman book, especially after seeing his run on JLA. Put your biggest guns on your biggest books and you make history.
I shamed myself in front of my fellow BVs this weekend when I asked when JLA 96 was coming out. Bob and Matt threatened my membership on the board and made me walk twenty paces behind them. Mike graciously showed me the cover, but asked* that I buy my own copy to read.
I amn having so much fun with these books. This series is my introduction to Doom Patrol, and I very much like what I see. I don't see the endgame of this story and am loving the mystery.
* "asked" is maybe being too gracious - he said "Get your own!"
I let a rant (or two) on a fickle fandom slip in, but hopefully its not too jarring. As usual, no spoilers, and I try to accentuate the good and not-so-good as I see it.
I'm not quite sure why people who like "The Tenth Circle" storyline seem to feel that that must defend the story on the basis of the complaints raised by the minibrains. I have read several people spitting at the story because it is "slow paced", and I keep seeing people defending it by explaining that it is slow paced "because it is a mystery".
But the story is not slow paced. Compare it to any of the written-for-the-trade arcs pumped out my M*****. There is more action in the first issue of "The Tenth Circle" than in 6 issues of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, or DAREDEVIL, or HULK. And the story is coming out bi-weekly!
Do we know everything yet? No. Does a reader know everything halfway thru an Agatha Christie, or a Sherlock Holmes, or a Harry Potter? Did viewers walk out of STAR WARS "Episode IV" knowing what would happen in "Episode VI"?
"Slow", "Like an 80s story*", "no backgrounds", "Vampires handled incorrectly", etc, etc. These are complaints I have seen leveled against these issues. I don't consider any of them valid -- yet I do see people who like the story responding to them as if they are. This is how the mini-brains get away with it. They say something preposterous, and mostly (tho not always, I am happy to note) the supporters argue as if there is some vailid point to these parroted phrases -- even tho none of them are even remotely defensible, and the people who make them do not even try to back them up.
I appreciate the positive review -- but I wish you had responded to the detractors with a scalpel instead of a swab.
*a particularly odd complaint, given that the 80s is supposed to be the period in which my "stuff was better".
I'm not quite sure why people who like "The Tenth Circle" storyline seem to feel that that must defend the story on the basis of the complaints raised by the minibrains.
> Well, I see you're point. Perhaps I am giving the detractors some "free air time". I felt compelled, due to the negative nellies that seem to dominate other forums, to address the criticisms head on - particularly those by my fellow reviewers at 411.
I have read several people spitting at the story because it is "slow paced", and I keep seeing people defending it by explaining that it is slow paced "because it is a mystery".
But the story is not slow paced.
> I think its being compared to the big-smash-em-space-opera stories of the earlier JLA. By comparison, the Tenth Circle is at a different pace. Slower. It feels like a story that's paced like a whodunit.
Compare it to any of the written-for-the-trade arcs pumped out my M*****. There is more action in the first issue of "The Tenth Circle" than in 6 issues of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, or DAREDEVIL, or HULK. And the story is coming out bi-weekly!
> Sorry, I don't read much out of M*****. However, I think the slow comparison is to earlier JLA stories.
Do we know everything yet? No. Does a reader know everything halfway thru an Agatha Christie, or a Sherlock Holmes, or a Harry Potter? Did viewers walk out of STAR WARS "Episode IV" knowing what would happen in "Episode VI"?
"Slow", "Like an 80s story*", "no backgrounds", "Vampires handled incorrectly", etc, etc. These are complaints I have seen leveled against these issues. I don't consider any of them valid -- yet I do see people who like the story responding to them as if they are. This is how the mini-brains get away with it. They say something preposterous, and mostly (tho not always, I am happy to note) the supporters argue as if there is some vailid point to these parroted phrases -- even tho none of them are even remotely defensible, and the people who make them do not even try to back them up.
> I agree with what you've said with one exception. The story is slower-paced than other shoot-em space-opera stories (in my opinion). That's not a bad thing. Pehaps "slow" isn't the right word. Maybe "methodical"? I'm scrambling for words here.
I appreciate the positive review
> Thank you.
-- but I wish you had responded to the detractors with a scalpel instead of a swab.
> What the Lord give'th he take'th away (kidding, kidding)
> Ok. Your comments are food for thought. Now I know how the other side feels. The reviewer has been reviewed. Thanks for taking the time.
*a particularly odd complaint, given that the 80s is supposed to be the period in which my "stuff was better".
> I loved your Legends work and MOS work. Superman #2 is still one of my all time-faves as are your Silver Banshee moments among others. Is any Byrne "period" better than another? I don't think so. I like some stories more than others for sure. I also find the way your visually telling Tenth Circle is great.
The story is slower-paced than other shoot-em space-opera stories (in my opinion).
*******
The first issue had Manitou Raven kidnapped by bat shadows, Batman finding a murdered girl in Gotham, Superman encountering and battling strange characters in Metropolis, and being captured by them, the Flash hunting for a missing girl, the Doom Patrol getting their first sneak peak, J'Onn and Wonder Woman investigating Raven's disappearance, the main villain being introduced and being shown to have power over Superman, the Atom disappearing inside a "telling stone" and Superman kidnapping Faith.
That's one issue . That's "slow"?
I don't mean to harp on this, since you did give the book a good review -- but if that's slow, what is fast? That's more story than most six issue arcs contain these days. The only way it could be called "slow" is if the readers want to know how everything is going to turn out before they even finish 1/6th of the story.
Daniel Winterfeldt (Login danielkamin) Byrne Victim
Re: The OFFICIAL JLA 96 Thread (Part II)
April 20 2004, 9:12 PM
The first issue had Manitou Raven kidnapped by bat shadows, Batman finding a murdered girl in Gotham, Superman encountering and battling strange characters in Metropolis, and being captured by them, the Flash hunting for a missing girl, the Doom Patrol getting their first sneak peak, J'Onn and Wonder Woman investigating Raven's disappearance, the main villain being introduced and being shown to have power over Superman, the Atom disappearing inside a "telling stone" and Superman kidnapping Faith.
That's one issue . That's "slow"?
I don't mean to harp on this, since you did give the book a good review -- but if that's slow, what is fast? That's more story than most six issue arcs contain these days. The only way it could be called "slow" is if the readers want to know how everything is going to turn out before they even finish 1/6th of the story.
*****
To be honest I had to re-read the first two issues over again in order to get the full story...there is A LOT packed into those books, and it moves at a very fast pace...
I agree, I am not sure how you can call them slow, I have not had to re-read a comic to get what is going on in a LONG time (unless you count Grant Morrisson's New X-Men where I am left reading and re-reading and NEVER understanding a lot of it...) ...in fact many these days you can almost skim and get 95% of what is going on...
(kidding, kidding)